Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on November 18, 2007, 05:50:30 PM

Title: FORMBY: Best Course In Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on November 18, 2007, 05:50:30 PM
Formby is quite unusual for two reasons.  First, it is a links bounded on three sides by trees.  Second, it encircles one of the oldest ladies clubs in the country, Formby Ladies GC.  FLGC is a charmer and nearly as old as Formby GC, which was formed in 1884.  The main course was originally designed by Willie Park in 1912, but a myriad of designers have had a hand in Formby's evolution. These include Braid (1922), Colt (1926), and the teams of FG Hawtree & JH Taylor (1933) and Pennink & Steel (1980).  This evolution has continued in fairly recent years with bunkers being altered and moved to cope with the modern game.  Even with many hands in the till, Formby presents a varied, yet unified design.  There is no defined style of shaping or design mantra, therefore holes such as 6, 11 & 15 are not out of step with newer holes such as 7 & 8.  Formby is well thought of as a championship test and has hosted the Amateur four times. In 1987 JM Olazabal beat C Montgomerie in the final.  Most recently, in 2009, M Manessaro became the first Italian to win the Amateur.  As can be the case, the pedigree of championships doesn't lessen the undeniable charm of Formby.   Its combination of heather, firs and sandy turf make for a standout course among the many Merseyside links. 

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Freshfields Station is a short walk from the club gates and the tracks feature on the opening three holes which in the old days were known as the plains.  The effect of the plains was dramatically reduced when In the 1970s trees were planted to block out the train line.  Perhaps the club should reconsider this decision and instead embrace the history of the area in the way many clubs in Great Britain & Ireland do.  The plains are defined by the bunker placement and are fairly straightforward with the strategies self evident, though they do require some playing to earn pars.
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The second is not unlike the 1st in how it looks, but it plays very differently.  Heather creeps in from the left and a raised green makes for interesting recoveries.  Not long ago the right fairway bunkers were shifted left to narrow the driving lane.  There have been other bunker changes on the course such as a new bunker on #7, but mainly shapes have been made more circular. 
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The course really comes alive with the 3rd.  The bunkers are still the defining element of the hole, but this wonderful short par 5 oozes with options off the tee and for the second.  Five ill-defined bunkers guard the left side of the fairway essentially making the player choose his bite size.
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A good drive leaves the player with the option of trying to force a shot home, layup short of the bunkers or try to carry the centre bunker (pictured below), but still layup.  This picture reveals how punishing the bunkering is, but it doesn't reveal the sly nature of the green - it runs front to back making it very difficult to snuggle up to the flag with the third let alone second. 
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The short par four 4th has hidden bunkers out to the right to protect against gaining the best approach angle too easily.  The bunkers near the green obscure the view for the approach.
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The original Colt 5th is a lovely short hole.  The green angles away from the tee making rear hole placements particularly tough to access.
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Things start to really crank up on the 6th.  The hole slips to the left and features a blind approach to a tricky green with a ridge running through the left side. This must be one of the original holes Park designed.  The deception off the tee is marvelous. One can guess there is more room left than it appears, but how much more?
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The blind approach covers some rough ground to a green which looks like a punchbowl but doesn't play like one as the left side falls-away.
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Steel & Pennink carried out major alterations to holes 7-10 in the late 70s. I never saw Formby in its previous state, but it is difficult to imagine the old stretch was more compelling than these new holes.  As a group they are well conceived and over terrific land. It makes me wonder why this land wasn't originally utilized.  The 7th kicks off the new section of the course, but the 5th and 6th flow seamlessly with these newer holes. 
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A good drive to the left affords a view of the green, but one may be left with the ball below their feet.  A better stance can be had out to the right, but the approach is blind.  The strongly sloping back to front green lies amidst the dunes and is a tough target.  This is a great example of a virtually bunker free hole that is very entertaining.   
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This photo looking back up the fairway reveals the snaking and uphill nature of the hole.
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The long holes at Formby are rarely mentioned as an oustanding set, but when taken as a whole, all three are very different and well designed. The 8th is a fine par 5 turning back on #7.  It is very easy to leak one over the fairway ledge on either side; in this respect the drive is not unlike Rye's 4th.  The smart play is a layup, but an aggressive play up the left or hooking with the contours can leave a mid-iron or less to the green.  The approach is all carry and depth perception is difficult.
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A big drive can finish in the rough which breaks the fairway some 190 yards short of the two-tier green. 
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A look at the green from near the 9th tee.
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The 9th is unusual in that a wide vista is on offer on the tee and has been made especially inviting due to tree clearance on the right which offers views to the sea.  A false dogleg is created by the cut of the fairway and many folks are lured off line to the right.   
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As on the 6th the approach is once again obscured by broken ground.  This is a very clever technique which is effective yet simple to implement.
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There is oodles of space to run a ball up.  I believe the old 7th green was just shy of the current green. The course used to play to the sea after the 7th before coming back to a green just to right of today's 10th green. The old 8 & 9 greens were swallowed up by the beach. They looked to be fine holes judging by old photos.
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I believe a fairway from right of the 10th tee used to play to the greensite of this converted par 3.   We are at the furthest extent of the course which still allows a view of the land by the sea that was abandoned for the new holes.  Its a shame there are only three short holes, but like the par 5s, a fine variety is on display and one couldn't point to any as a weakness. 
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The 11th continues the great fun that is Formby.  There is a blind bunker left to keep folks honest, a re-occuring theme at Formby.
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The approach is quite daunting as it seems to narrow the closer one gets to the hole.  Below is a look at the approach and the rather unusual step-up just shy of the green.
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A look back toward the tee.
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From here there are more quite radical differences to the 1912 layout. Formby doesn't let up...another Colt original, the 12th is a cracker with the fairway narrowing and plunging out of sight.  I think the bunker to the right used to be blind and that a bank near the tee may have been shaved.  Like a handful of other holes on the course, there is a rise in front of the green and a hidden bunker left. 
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The 13th takes us back toward the house and to one of the coolest fairways on the course.  From the tee you only see a few bunkers.  Once over the slight rise one can see a sea of sand.  The green rests in a saddle between the dunes. 
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The approach from up the gut of the fairway.
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The green.
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The 14th continues back toward the clubhouse.  From the tee it looks like the player wants to hug the left to shorten the hole.  The left may leave a shorter approach, but it can also leave an awkward angle or a blind shot...choose your medicine. You instead of playing around the right of the practice ground, this used to play through the practice ground as a fairway then bend right.
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The hole swings harder left than it would seem.  The green is also a tough target as it angles slightly away from the fairway.
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A post 1912 hole, the 15th turns away from the clubhouse.  One can sense that the second will be blind.  Laying up isn't a bad option as anything falling off the fairway in either direction more or less leaves a hack back into play.  By my count that is a 13 hole stretch of damn near the highest quality. A golfer will be hard pressed to see such varied terrain and shot making requirements as holes 3-15 offer.
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The approach can often be blind over yet another broken fairway and to a green between sentinel dunes.  A large drive is required to earn the view below. 
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A short one-shotter, although fairly modern in how the hole feels, 16 is not without some merit.  The green is bigger than it appears from the tee, but still a small target befitting its short yardage.  Below is a look at the green well in front of the tee.
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We once again return to the flat terrain for the finishing holes. 17 used to be played in the opposite direction as the 16th in 1912. The old 17th and the 18th tee are now housing. This last par 5 is not as compelling as the first two, but the reachable length combined with the difficult to hold green give it a twist.  However, I wonder if this hole would be better served as a par 4 with a reconfiguration of the bunkering.  A new bunker has been added up the right to thwart flat bellies.  The approach.
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These flat holes remind me of Wallasey and Hoylake.  They are good golf, but unlike much of the remainder of the course, bunkers are heavily relied upon to create the interest and challenge.  Although, the 18th fairway bleeds beautifully into the old green causing depth perception difficulties. This tactic is especially effective on the last because the green is some 45 yards deep. 
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Formby has three main elements in its favour.  First and foremost, the terrain is marvelously varied.  All sorts of shots are required and this has to be the goal if a course of quality is to be built. Second, it isn't often mentioned, but Formby has an interesting set of greens which are tricky without being over-bearing.  Finally, courses with different designers involved can be incongruous.  While Formby had a host of architects who worked on the course, it still presents itself as a unified whole that hasn't in the least suffered for its disjointed design history. Its probably the case that that the consistent use of round pot bunkers ties the holes together stylistically.  If I was going to nit pick, some trees could stand to come out and the course would probably be better served by a more dynamic style of bunkering. 

While Formby isn't the most well known of the the glutton of fine links in the northwest of England, this author believes Formby to be the best course in northern England; just pipping Ganton, Hoylake & Birkdale to the post.  A stop at Formby would grace any tour of England. My respect and enjoyment of the course and club is such that if there was a drivable par 4 or two I would be inclined to bump Formby up a star.  1*  2017

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Formby Ladies
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60714.msg1438944.html#msg1438944 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60714.msg1438944.html#msg1438944)

Ciao
Title: Re:FORMBY
Post by: Brent Hutto on November 18, 2007, 06:26:50 PM
I was chatting with a member in Formby's locker room and he said that they get the comment about "not a links" all the time regarding the turf. He wasn't quite ready to agree but said that because of the heavy amount of play the course receives year-round, their cultivation practices are more fertilizer-heavy than any of the other links courses in the area. This results in a higher proportion of firmer bladed grasses and the ball tends to sit differently than on a links and also be "too green" in appearance.

He suggested if I were interested in this issue I should play a round at the Formby Ladies course. Same soil, same weather (the Ladies course is actually circumscribed by the Formby course) but they stick to a more traditional links maintenance regimen and he claimed you could tell the difference from the first iron shot you hit there. Unfortunately, Mike Whitaker and I couldn't bring ourselves to pass up another round at Formby in order to play the Ladies so investigation of that claim awaits a return visit.

For my part, the turf at Formby does not offer the same experience as up the road on the Royal Birkdale course. I would have to say the Birkdale turf was as good a ball striking experience as I'd had in my limited visits to links courses and in comparison Formby is on a different level. I'd rather hit iron shots off Formby's turf than, for instance, Walton Heath's or Alwoodley's but it's a close call.

As for the trees, heather and so forth also contributing to Sean's "not a links" impression I can not say I agree. I loved the effect of the rather well-grouped tree copses combined with linksy winds and humpity-bumpity terrain. I never had a moment's parkland vibe off the Formby links, even in the most tree-lined holes on the front nine. In my book it is a links with somewhat dodgy turf, but a links indeed.
Title: Re:FORMBY
Post by: Sean_A on November 18, 2007, 06:47:02 PM
I was chatting with a member in Formby's locker room and he said that they get the comment about "not a links" all the time regarding the turf. He wasn't quite ready to agree but said that because of the heavy amount of play the course receives year-round, their cultivation practices are more fertilizer-heavy than any of the other links courses in the area. This results in a higher proportion of firmer bladed grasses and the ball tends to sit differently than on a links and also be "too green" in appearance.

He suggested if I were interested in this issue I should play a round at the Formby Ladies course. Same soil, same weather (the Ladies course is actually circumscribed by the Formby course) but they stick to a more traditional links maintenance regimen and he claimed you could tell the difference from the first iron shot you hit there. Unfortunately, Mike Whitaker and I couldn't bring ourselves to pass up another round at Formby in order to play the Ladies so investigation of that claim awaits a return visit.

For my part, the turf at Formby does not offer the same experience as up the road on the Royal Birkdale course. I would have to say the Birkdale turf was as good a ball striking experience as I'd had in my limited visits to links courses and in comparison Formby is on a different level. I'd rather hit iron shots off Formby's turf than, for instance, Walton Heath's or Alwoodley's but it's a close call.

As for the trees, heather and so forth also contributing to Sean's "not a links" impression I can not say I agree. I loved the effect of the rather well-grouped tree copses combined with linksy winds and humpity-bumpity terrain. I never had a moment's parkland vibe off the Formby links, even in the most tree-lined holes on the front nine. In my book it is a links with somewhat dodgy turf, but a links indeed.

Brent

Its not the trees or heather that puts me off, though trees in the winter do no favours for drainage, its all the low lying stuff you see growing as you walk about.  Loads of broad leaf grasses that just don't appear on properly maintained links.  This course is well into a transition stage and if they don't take immediate steps like Burnham and Deal have chosen to do, this place will go into decline.  I reckon it will be harder and harder to mainatin the greens properly without more fertilizers.  If I was a member, I would be very concerned because the single biggest definer of a links is the turf - imo.  Even so, I like the course ton!

Ciao
Title: Re:FORMBY - All 18
Post by: Brent Hutto on November 18, 2007, 06:56:44 PM
The first morning we were there, during breakfast we could see a fellow wearing gloves of some kind out along the hedgerow from seventeen green back toward the clubhouse bending down and picking up bit of grass or whatnot. A bit later he was sitting at a table with the club secretary (if I'm not mistaken, one of the officers anyway) and the course superintendent having a spirited discussion about rhyzomes, percentages of this or that species, weather patterns and who knows what all.

So maybe he was a fertilizer or seed salesman or perhaps he was consulting w.r.t. some of the issues you mention. I would think the margin of the course in that area is a telling transition between the linksy and non-linksy portions. Or maybe not,  know from nothing about agronomy. I just know that that hitting down on a 5-iron real hard from a tight fairway lie at Birkdale makes my tummy warm and fluttery in a downright unseemly way. More of that would be a good thing and Formby doesn't seem to quite have it right now.
Title: Re:FORMBY - All 18
Post by: Sean_A on November 18, 2007, 07:18:59 PM
Brent

Yep, I like Birkdale a load as well, but I don't think its that much better than Formby to justify the huge difference in green fee.  I know many on this site treat architecture like art.  That may be true, but what I want to do is play the game, not walk a course for the "artistic experience".  As such, like anything I consider spending money on, I expect good value.  So it shouldn't be surprising that I don't have a lot of time for a club that wants to charge me £150 in the winter when there is a great course just down the road charging £40.

Ciao    
Title: Re:FORMBY - All 18
Post by: Paul_Turner on November 18, 2007, 08:37:20 PM
Nice to see Formby.  I wonder why no GCA profile, I can't believe Ran doesn't like this course??

Sad to see that grand old sentinal (oak?) tree is gone from the top of the dune on the 15th.  It was a beauty;  if it was healthy but chopped, then that ranks as the dumbest tree removal ever, equal with the old lime tree on Addington's 10th and the one behind the 15th at NGLA.
Title: Re:FORMBY - All 18
Post by: Michael Whitaker on November 18, 2007, 10:36:38 PM
I like Birkdale a load as well, but I don't think its that much better than Formby to justify the huge difference in green fee.

Sean - I, too, am a big fan of Formby. The 36 holes that Brent and I played there were as much fun as I have had in ages exploring a course unknown to me; and, I would love to visit again... especially for a £40 golf & lunch deal!!! But for you to say that Birkdale is not at least 3 times a better course than Formby is amazing to me (based on price). Birkdale is a masterpiece (note the "art" reference) that I would play in a five or six to one ratio with Formby... all things being equal. But, everything isn't equal, is it? So my thrifty pocketbook would force a reverse of ratio in Formby's favor. But, that aside, IMHO Birkdale is 10 times the course that Formby offers. As I have said in other posts, it might be the best course I have ever played... it's definitely one of my top five. Formby is the kind of course one could enjoyably play every day, not unlike Alwoodley. But, as we southerners say, "It ain't no Birkdale!"

As for Formby's turf: Brent and I found it to play more like a course with lightly overseeded bermuda fairways... it was firm enough for a good fairway bounce with the driver and approach shots, but was ever so slightly "cushiony" with more nap than I have seen on other links courses. This allowed the ball to sit up a bit so that shots could sometimes be swept off the fairway instead of requiring the sharpe blow that is usually required on links turf.

Let's arrange a £40 visit to Formby the next time I am in England. I can take the train up from London.
Title: Re:FORMBY - All 18
Post by: Mike_Cirba on November 18, 2007, 11:08:53 PM
Damn...I absolutely detested those little fuzzy children's "toys" that talked nonsense gibberish to you that were all the rage in the mid-90s.  

A pox on you Sean, for even reminding me of them.   >:( >:( >:(

(http://www.virtualpet.com/vp/farm/furby/furbybw.jpg)


;)
Title: Re:FORMBY - All 18
Post by: Ed Tilley on November 19, 2007, 03:57:41 AM
Don't want to tread on your toes Sean but, filling in the gaps, here are some pictures of the first 2 holes.

Number 1.

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2nd drive

(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i101/edtilley/P1000803.jpg)

Raised green at 2

(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i101/edtilley/P1000805.jpg)

Wonderful course - as Sean says it's not easy to categorise (links/heath/parkland) but, whatever it is, it's quality golf from start to finish.
Title: Re:FORMBY - All 18
Post by: Jeff Doerr on November 19, 2007, 09:30:16 AM
Thanks Sean!  I enjoyed your images and words on Formby so much this AM, that I went to their website for the course guide, history, etc. Here are the changes over the years...

The original 18 hole course was redesigned by the famous Willie Park and a plan of the course (dated 1912) is displayed in the Hall Bar. Alongside is the 1994 plan showing the changes that have taken place in the intervening years.

James Braid changed the original 15th - 18th layout in 1922 to provide extra length and to move the 17th when it was realised that Shireburn Road and the houses were to be constructed to its right. A Stand of Conifers was planted, some of which remain today.

Minor changes were introduced by Messrs Hawtree & Taylor in 1933, but the latest major change took place in the early 1970's.

Following the construction of the Container Docks in Liverpool, which in turn affected the course of the River Mersey, it was realised that we were losing yards of shoreline near the 8th & 9th greens. In 1972 the high equinox spring tides undermined the sandhills and gale force winds regularly blew the loosened sand across the 8th green. The Council investigated ways of combating the erosion but in the end decided to construct new holes taking the course away from the shoreline.

New holes at 7, 8 & 9 were designed by Donald Steel of Frank Pennick & Partners, and a new 10th Tee playing to the existing 10th Green turned this into a short hole. These holes came into play in the early 80's and were used for the 1984 Amateur Championship.

Over recent years a few changes have been made but most are of a “tweaking” nature:
Trees were planted in the early 70's to the right of the 1st, 2nd & 3rd holes, thus screening the railway
New bunkers have been created at the 4th, 6th & 11th and others redesigned
In 1997 fairway watering was introduced onto 5 holes
In 1998 new back Tees were built to provide a “Blue” course which has extended the length to 6993 yards (SSS 74) but more importantly has brought back into play, for the scratch golfer, most of the original drive-length bunkers.
Title: Re:FORMBY - All 18
Post by: Philip Gawith on November 19, 2007, 10:59:56 AM
Thanks Sean - I had forgotten about the extent to which Formby include some real dunes and undulation.
Title: Re:FORMBY - All 18
Post by: Steve Okula on November 19, 2007, 02:05:31 PM
Formby is currently advertising for a course manager, on the BIGGA web-site, in case anyone is interested.
Title: Re:FORMBY - All 18
Post by: Andrew Mitchell on November 20, 2007, 08:37:06 AM

I enjoyed Formby immensely and would relish a return a visit.  If foks are interested in taking advantage of the £160 for a 4 ball deal sometime between now and March 30, let me know.  If we get four I can try to arrange it.  

Ciao

Sean
Great photos as ever - you do an excellent job of highlighting the great courses in the UK which are just below the top tier in the public perception.  Count me in for a meet up sometime before now & 30 March, although from a work point of view February/March would be preferable.
Title: Re:FORMBY - All 18
Post by: Jon Wiggett on November 20, 2007, 10:59:35 AM
Formby is currently advertising for a course manager, on the BIGGA web-site, in case anyone is interested.

Steve,

you beat me to it. It suprises me that the turf quality is changing as they have had the same course manager for quite a few years. Maybe they have experienced an excesively wet year that is encouraging the broader bladed grasses. I haven't played Formby for quite a few years now but I remember the turf being of solid links/heathland quality.

Sean, did you get time to play the ladies course next door? Well worth the effort, great fun!
Title: Re: FORMBY - All 18 All Again
Post by: Sean_A on December 14, 2008, 08:15:31 PM
Blast this new non-delete feature.

Ciao
Title: Re: FORMBY - All 18 All Again
Post by: David_Tepper on December 14, 2008, 10:56:44 PM
What a classic English clubhouse and the course ain't too shabby either! ;)
Title: Re: FORMBY - All 18 All Again
Post by: Mark Bourgeois on December 15, 2008, 06:58:28 AM
Another not-a-links. I really do suspect this problem is bigger than many let on.

Sean, that middle stretch of which you are fond: are the holes as narrow as many appear in the photographs?

Thanks for posting,
Mark
Title: Re: FORMBY - All 18 All Again
Post by: Andrew Mitchell on December 15, 2008, 07:16:58 AM
Take another look at this superb course.  The tour is updated and I am more impressed than ever.

Ciao

Sean
Thanks for the reminder of how good Formby looks.

If you fancy a meet up before the end of March please let me know.
Title: Re: FORMBY - All 18 All Again
Post by: Michael Wharton-Palmer on December 15, 2008, 11:10:20 AM
Sean,
Great pictures, great to see the course again.
I really like Formby, played the British Boys there one year and have played in "THE HARE' a few times, both before and after the changes.
The 40 pounds is a steal...and I remember how good thier lunch is!
Title: Re: FORMBY - All 18 All Again
Post by: Mark_Rowlinson on December 15, 2008, 12:44:58 PM
Good to see genuine appreciation of this course, which I love very much. I haven't played it for some years, so I would be very happy to make up a 4-ball. The last golf I saw there was the Curtis Cup in which the American team featured Michelle Wie and Paula Creamer. My (then teenage) son was quite smitten with Miss Creamer!
Title: Re: FORMBY - All 18 All Again
Post by: Sean_A on December 15, 2008, 12:54:16 PM
Another not-a-links. I really do suspect this problem is bigger than many let on.

Sean, that middle stretch of which you are fond: are the holes as narrow as many appear in the photographs?

Thanks for posting,
Mark

Mark

Its a nasty little secret, but traditional links courses are far and few between these days.  I have probably seen a handful in recent years (Strandhill, North Wales, Channel Course at Burnham, Carne, Pennard, Castletown - are you beginning to see a pattern here - any course that his very well known or caters to touristas doesn't play like a proper links should).  I don't care what anybody says, once a modern watering system is slapped in I think its awfully tough for the powers that be not to turn it on.  Its sort of like a general with his army.  By god he wants to use it or why have it or him or at all?

7-10 (well certainly not 9 & 10) aren't that narrow.  Mind you, when the rough is down its hard to be a fair judge of the matter.  For instance, on the 8th I never looked at the fairway.  I knew the rough wasn't harsh down the left and if I could pull off the short cut I had a great birdie chance.  There was no way I was going to miss right and I don't have any idea of the rough on that side of the fairway.  I can see #7 being a bit tight because the left side must be a nightmare in the summer - but one can always layup to the fat part of the fairway.

Ciao
Title: Re: FORMBY - All 18 All Again
Post by: Richard Boult on December 17, 2008, 05:18:57 PM
http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/England (http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/England)
Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: 2009 Winter Tour of England
Post by: Sean_A on November 30, 2009, 08:20:56 PM
Take a look. 

Ciao
Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: 2009 Winter Tour of England
Post by: Andrew Mitchell on December 02, 2009, 06:25:13 AM
Sean

Thanks for reminding me what I'm missing ;)  That's two abortive attempts at playing Formby.

I have contacted the club to attempt to reschedule and will let you know the outcome.
Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: 2009/10 Winter Tour of England
Post by: Sean_A on March 07, 2010, 06:28:01 PM
Another update from the Winter Tour of England & Wales.  

Ciao
Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: 2009/10 Winter Tour of England & Wales
Post by: Philip Spogard on March 08, 2010, 02:48:43 AM
I played Formby a couple of years ago - and though it may be fairly well known - it is a real (hidden) gem to many.

It is very different from the other courses in the area and especially the front nine offers some really unique holes.

I doubt anyone would be disappointed spending a day here if you get near this part of the world.
Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on June 22, 2011, 02:59:00 PM
Sometimes a course seems to hit the spot and despite its shortcomings, nothing else will do at that moment.  I went up to Cumbria expecting to be wowed, but instead was bowled over playing Formby on the way home.  The course was in the best nick of any I have seen in a good few years now.  The rough was about as good as it gets; whispy and undesirable yet fairly easy to locate a ball in.  The fairways and greens were in perfect harmony with some roll, but not uncontrollable.  The two games were a pleasant reminder of what links is meant to be like.  If you have a chance, go see the course now - it will not likely be in better shape anytime soon.  See the updated tour and feast!

Ciao

 
Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Peter Pallotta on June 22, 2011, 03:06:33 PM
The best bunkers in all of golf!!!  (In my humble opinion of course).

Sean - thanks. I'm happy for you.

Peter
Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Brent Hutto on June 22, 2011, 03:15:57 PM
Sean,

And for what it's worth, it was very much as you've described it in mid-September, 2007 when myself, Craig Disher and Mike Whitaker played there.

Very little trouble finding you ball in the rough except the odd low-lying thicker patch, maybe a 50/50 chance of being able to play whatever shot you like once you find it but almost certainly the rough had to be taken into account. Fairway lies maybe a bit less "linksy" than absolute perfection due to their atypical use of nutrients (for a links) but admirably firm, tight and well-drained just the same. Greens perhaps not as absolutely perfect as at Royal Birkdale down the road during the same week but at most a half-notch behind.

And the routing is a little like Golspie in having several distinct "segments" with a subtly different feel. Not to Golspie's extreme and I find Formby overall a far superior course (meaning that to complement Formby, not denigrate Golspie) but the variety was welcome as I played Formby four times in less than a week's time.

And staying in their clubhouse Dormy rooms while playing there was quite a treat. I'd say of the extended stays I've had at a few courses in the UK, the rounds at Formby were second only to Deal in enjoyment for me. And though I'll catch hell for saying it, more fun than the stay in Dornoch. Probably because I was there midweek, off-season and typically had the course to myself (solo or with one playing companion). I just adore having the run of a fast-playing, easy-walking, reasonably-challenging course of that caliber without the feeling that I'm sharing it with a hundred other players at the same time. Very special.

P.S. I have a souvenir pine cone (tiny little thing) from one of the "Formby Pines" sitting on my dresser at home. I see it every morning when I'm dressing and recall playing there fondly. As odd as it may sound, I do not have souvenirs from any other courses so prominently displayed. Kind of strange now that I think about it. It's not the best course I've ever played or even the very most fun I've ever had playing. But there's that pine cone, four years on...
Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on June 23, 2011, 06:53:37 AM
Brent

Formby has made leaps and bounds in eliminating much of the lush rough I first spotted a few years back.  This is an incredible transformation of a links.  Perhaps hosting the Amateur (last year?) spurred the club to get its act together.  In any case, if Silloth was meant to be the outlier course in the north (I already decided that Formby is the best of its immediate neighbours) then Formby is indeed the best links in northern England.  I like Silloth a ton, but it falls considerably short of Formby in terms of offering a championship test and being member friendly. 

Ciao   
Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Brent Hutto on June 23, 2011, 07:24:50 AM
When we were there in 2007 there was a visiting consultant of some kind (agronomist?) digging up soil and turf samples, mostly from the rough it seemed to me. I was told it had something to do with weaning the grass away from the high (by links standards) nutrient input regimen it had been on for a number of years and returning it to a more desirable mix of links grasses. Or something like that. Definitely the club's greenskeeper following the guy around while they pull up grass and compared roots and so forth.

One of the members we encountered in the locker room said that the Formby Women's course, contained inside the loop of the Formby course, had the advantage (to some perspectives) of having been maintained on a more traditional links regimen while sharing the same ground. Such a ready comparison was no doubt helpful in recalibrating the Formby course's approach, or so I would think.
Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Jeff_Lewis on June 23, 2011, 11:44:19 AM
Really a fabulous place. Great to see it discussed.  I would love to see photos of the holes by the sea that were lost.
Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Dan Grossman on June 23, 2011, 11:59:28 AM
Brent

Formby has made leaps and bounds in eliminating much of the lush rough I first spotted a few years back.  This is an incredible transformation of a links.  Perhaps hosting the Amateur (last year?) spurred the club to get its act together.  In any case, if Silloth was meant to be the outlier course in the north (I already decided that Formby is the best of its immediate neighbours) then Formby is indeed the best links in northern England.  I like Silloth a ton, but it falls considerably short of Formby in terms of offering a championship test and being member friendly. 

Ciao   

Sean - thanks for the updated photos, it was great to see the course again.  Do you like Formby better than Lytham?  Having made one trip to Lancashire, I would rank Formby second, with Lytham ahead of it by a bit of a margin.  Just curious to get your thoughts...


Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Eric Strulowitz on June 23, 2011, 06:15:18 PM
What a beautiful stunning course.  Amazing variety and topography.  Seems the kind of place you could play over and over, and never get bored.

Really enjoyed the pictures.  Thanks so much!

Eric Strulowitz
Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on June 24, 2011, 03:56:08 AM
Brent

Formby has made leaps and bounds in eliminating much of the lush rough I first spotted a few years back.  This is an incredible transformation of a links.  Perhaps hosting the Amateur (last year?) spurred the club to get its act together.  In any case, if Silloth was meant to be the outlier course in the north (I already decided that Formby is the best of its immediate neighbours) then Formby is indeed the best links in northern England.  I like Silloth a ton, but it falls considerably short of Formby in terms of offering a championship test and being member friendly. 

Ciao   

Dan

Maybe you should ask Spangles - tee hee.  Formby pushes my limits for bunkers and indeed slips into madness here and there.  Lytham is totally out of control and a course I don't care for in the least.  Plus, I like the flow at Formby better.  The terrain changes at seemingly just the right times.

Ciao

Sean - thanks for the updated photos, it was great to see the course again.  Do you like Formby better than Lytham?  Having made one trip to Lancashire, I would rank Formby second, with Lytham ahead of it by a bit of a margin.  Just curious to get your thoughts...



Title: Re:FORMBY - All 18
Post by: Michael Whitaker on June 24, 2011, 07:42:19 AM
I don't have a lot of time for a club that wants to charge me £150 in the winter when there is a great course just down the road charging £40.  

How quickly things change... Formby is now charging £110 for a visitor fee!!!

Birkdale is now £175!!!!!

This is getting completely out of control.
Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Brent Hutto on June 24, 2011, 07:52:18 AM
Wow, I would't have classed it as a "bargain" when we were there four years ago but I played three days at Formby, took a side trip to Birkdale and stayed those nights in the Dormy accomodation. The whole four-day deal was 400-odd pounds. Prices of the same four days are rapidly appraoching twice that amount now. Some economic downturn, eh?
Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Dan Grossman on June 24, 2011, 11:32:16 AM
Sean -

Thanks for the response.  I'm not sure we're ever going to see eye to eye on that perspective regarding Lytham, but that's the beauty of these types of things.  For me, I thought there was wonderful elevation changes at Lytham, especially towards the east end of the property.  Despite an "out and back" piece of property, the routing actually changed directions a number of times to ensure that it didn't get too monotonous.  I thought the bunkers, while numerous, added quite a bit to the round as it always forced you to think about where you wanted to hit the next shot.

I liked Formby, I just didn't think it was quite at the same level as Lytham.  I also felt that the holes nearer the clubhouse were a bit of a letdown.  To each his own, thanks for the update.

Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on June 25, 2011, 03:51:14 PM
I’d seen this thread before and had down as a notable place to visit.  However I was not prepared for the coup de foudre.

Pictures have their place but anyone who has seen e.g. the 9th at RCD knows that no image can get ALLTHAT down on 2D.   There’s nothing that stunning at Formby but what the images don’t adequately portray, includes

-   I’ve never seen a course that so beautifully has ...in landscape gardening its’ know as ‘Secret rooms’...  You see this sometimes on Heathlands courses where the vista over a few holes is open enough to create something more than the sum of the parts...  You get that a lot at Formby.  With the tress down the right of the opening holes it feels like a links course hidden form the rest of the world.  You play some flattish holes, turn back on yourself and then suddenly head out in to some marvellous broken land. You walk round the corner and suddenly you’re high up and playing out to the sea.  It’s an enchanted journey who’s revelations still thrilled second time around. And yes it’s a links, a very beautiful one.
-   What I’m trying to describe about the course is what makes Formby Unique.  I mean other links courses have trees and heather and views of the sea, but none pull them all together in quite the way that this one does.
-   I’ve played a few Links holes where the fairway is ‘fractured’, at just the point of a very good drive the well hit ball will run down to a lower fairway, that’s going in the same direction but on a parallel track.=.  There’s one at The European Club and one at Waterville, but if there’s a template then surely this is it (or was Waterville first?). Pictures again can’t do it justice but for me it’s the pick of a fine bunch of holes in the middle.
-   Aim at the bunker, it’s on the lower level, there’s a narrow gap to find but looking back you see the reward.
-   (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/FORMBY/125.jpg?t=1308729086)
-   (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/FORMBY/126.jpg?t=1308729077)
-   (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/FORMBY/129.jpg?t=1308729063)
-   
-   
-   It is a great golf course and to answer the Question in the thread title, Yes I’d place it above Lytham, Birkdale, Hoylake, Wallasey and yes Siloth (haven’t read that thread yet).
-   I don’t normally get too hung up on Club Houses but the Dormy here is the best I’ve experienced.   ON the night Rory made his breakthrough our group of 8 had the full and sole use of the clubhouse.  Bedrooms top floor, Snooker room (2 full size tables), flat screen TV.  Earlier the barman said tell me what you think you might want to drink and I’ll leave it out for you. “IN the morning if it’s opened you pay for it OK”.  Wonderful.  I'd be happy to organise a GCA get together here, one year when the Ryder Cup is being played in the US.  Golf during the day TV at night. If I was considering organising a tour with mates from the US, this feature alone would put Formby high on the list of suitable destinations. List.
-   Again I’m less conditioning conscious than many on here and it was a great surprise to read the comment from a few years ago, but I found the set up near perfect (the exception is a 2” spot front  right of the 3rd green Sean knows where).  We had a couple of guys who sprayed it and if you have to spend time looking for other people’s balls then it doesn’t get better than this.
-   (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/FORMBY/185.jpg?t=1308728629)



I can’t wait to return.

Title: Re: FORMBY Retread: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on June 25, 2011, 06:45:34 PM
Spangles

I am glad you enjoyed Formby.  Its one of those championship courses which gets the balance of challenge and playability spot on - seemingly very difficult to achieve.  I can recall being taken with it my first go round as something a bit different.  Like you, I don't usually get hung up on conditioning, but to play a course in such perfect condition is so rare that when I do experience it the entire day is made so much better. 

Ciao
Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on September 10, 2012, 05:27:06 AM
It was good to get a group of Pests at Formby this weekend.  Scoring wasn't great despite the benign conditions, but I spose that is part and parcel of championship golf courses.  We had the additional treat of a few air shows which featured WWII planes and a few early jets.  Maybe the most impressive sight was a low flying Lancaster which set off a few car alarms.

See updated photos.

Ciao
Title: Re:FORMBY - All 18
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on September 10, 2012, 03:25:22 PM
I like Birkdale a load as well, but I don't think its that much better than Formby to justify the huge difference in green fee.

Sean - I, too, am a big fan of Formby. The 36 holes that Brent and I played there were as much fun as I have had in ages exploring a course unknown to me; and, I would love to visit again... especially for a £40 golf & lunch deal!!! But for you to say that Birkdale is not at least 3 times a better course than Formby is amazing to me (based on price). Birkdale is a masterpiece (note the "art" reference) that I would play in a five or six to one ratio with Formby... all things being equal. But, everything isn't equal, is it? So my thrifty pocketbook would force a reverse of ratio in Formby's favor. But, that aside, IMHO Birkdale is 10 times the course that Formby offers. As I have said in other posts, it might be the best course I have ever played... it's definitely one of my top five. Formby is the kind of course one could enjoyably play every day, not unlike Alwoodley. But, as we southerners say, "It ain't no Birkdale!"



Mike I know you had an incredible time at Birkdale but after a return visit to Formby have your views altered at all?
Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on September 10, 2012, 04:41:29 PM
I've never played Formby but it always appears to me from photos to be an almost perfect mix... In fact I've probably built up too high expectations of the place... It's very high on my want to see list...
Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links Of Northern England?
Post by: Lynn_Shackelford on September 11, 2012, 03:53:15 PM
Whitaker will no doubt have a higher opinion of Formby after carding a net 38 Stableford.

Sean, shame on you for not playing the Ladies course.  One of golf's treats.

Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Dónal Ó Ceallaigh on September 12, 2012, 06:32:25 AM
I played Birkdale the day after Formby, and while I haven't fully made up my mind on both courses, I don't think Birkdale (£180 on a Monday) is worth 3x or 4x the Formby green fee.

I really liked Formby and Birkdale, but the totally flat fairways on the latter were a big disappointment to me. There were some features at Formby that I also didn't like, such as the series of 3 bunkers on the RHS of both the 2nd and 11th. It just seemed like overkill.

I still need to think a little about both courses, but what last week's golfing trip has shown me, is that the difference in quality between a Top 10 and a Top 20 course is very little indeed.
Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on September 12, 2012, 06:56:28 AM
Brian is right.  Formby's green fee is quite high, not in the clouds like Birkdale's, but dear enough.  The kicker is that Formby offers excellent summer dormy house packages which essentially gives two weekend games and b&b for the same price as Birkdale's weekday green fee.  While still not cheap, I think Formby's package represents excellent value for what I think is a course in the same league (with few exceptions) as England's best.

Ciao 
Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Dónal Ó Ceallaigh on September 12, 2012, 07:42:08 AM
Thanks for pointing that out Brian. I had seen figures of £45 being thrown around earlier in the thread and didn't break down what I paid as we went for the Dormy House deal. I'd go with Formby's Dormy deal over a round at Birkdale. Formby's £115 also stacks up well against Birkdale's £180 fee.

I just hope that the club don't get unlucky some time and host a bunch of hooligans that thrash the place. It's a unique facility and the club ought to be commended for having such a trusting attitude towards guests.
Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Brent Hutto on September 12, 2012, 10:35:44 AM
For my money, a single round at Formby for 115 quid does not stack up particularly well against a single round at Birkdale for 180. I think the relative quality of courses (and their turf) represents a much greater ratio than the 3:2 ratio of green fees. Given the way diminishing returns set in at the upper end of the golf course spectrum a round at Birkdale is a better "value for money" (or should I say a less poor "value for money") than a round at Formby because Birkdale is an immaculately maintained course of awesome quality.

That said, two rounds at Formby and a night in the Dormy (or better yet three or four rounds and two nights in the Dormy) is just off the charts in the value-for-money dimension. I really love playing a course multiple times during one visit and I really love staying on the property. Plus the "property" in question offers really comfortable accomodation in its own right. So no way that Birkdale can be considered a destination in the same sense as Formby.

Now one or the other of these courses may not be the type of course that a given player enjoys. Yes most fairways lies at Birkdale are quite level compared to Formby or any number of other links courses. It often creates a matter of either hitting or coming very close to hitting a fairway (and being rewarding with a near perfect stance and lie) or missing the fairway badly and being sidehill in thick rough on a dune. Formby on the other hand offers more randomness and more opportunities to play a slightly tricky shot after a "perfect" drive. Both are valid paradigms for a golf course IMO. Birkdale has been tweaked and regularized to a greater extent than most links courses and from the outset it was routed between rather than across the dunes. But it has awesomely ball-attracting bunkers, it has plenty of subtle contours, a few holes offer interesting angle-distance choices off the tee and it is suitable punishing for hitting the ball wildly offline. Sort of the opposite of The Old Course in that sense, the rewards and punishment tend more toward the full stroke than the subtle and the bunkers seem more likely to collect a ball in the first place but then tend to be quite simply to play out of.

I think Formby is more fun over multiple rounds but I think Birkdale is a much better sorted course in all details and forms a more coherent design aesthetic. Think of the difference in a formal English garden with topiary versus a splendid piece of wilderness, both of them can be nice places to spend an afternoon but the experience they offer is quite different.
Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on September 12, 2012, 11:28:53 AM
The big problem I find with Birkdale is that many fairways either turn at angles across wind or run between dunes with cross wind.  From this perspective the design is lacking in variety and I don't see much else to redeem the course in terms of a $300 green fee.  But to be fair, I can only think of one $300+ course I have played that I would be happy to return on full freight.  On the other hand, Formby is fantastically varied, something I value very much in design.  

Ciao
Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Ivan Morris on September 12, 2012, 04:56:07 PM
I have fond memories of Formby! Would love to go back someday. I tried (unsuccessfully) to qualify for the 1976 Open Championship there but was 'done-in' and terrorized by the lightening speed of greens that I had never encountered before. I scored 78 twice but in each round took more putts on the greens than shots played to reach the greens. I believe (but I can't be sure) the great, future GURU, Pete Cowan tried to help by giving me a FOC putting lesson in between rounds. What I did not appreciate at the time was that that particular event would create world headlines because of the antics of a certain Maurice Flitcroft (R.I.P) who was also a competitor. I did outscore him! WHen I heard of Flitcroft's passing I was moved to pen the following. 
Last May, when I read the headline, “Open Hacker Flitcroft Dies,” it was enough to send me hurtling down a tunnel of nostalgia. How could I forget the former crane driver from Frilford Heath who conned his way into the qualifying rounds of the 106th Open Championship at Formby in 1976? 
As an amateur competitor I had to go through the most stringent of qualification criteria but the scrutiny of professional entries was so lax that anybody could have entered as a pro, as Flitcroft had done. The result was a lot of red faced, red rossetted, R&A Officials scrambling around the dunes of Formby in a heatwave with steam rising from their binoculars. 
I was quietly practicing my putting, trying to keep my frayed nerves at bay when a Marty Feldman lookalike from the movie, The Last Remake of Beau Geste suddenly appeared. Professional golfers don’t like to be disturbed while at their ‘work.’ Though a lowly amateur, I’m no different. With the help of an impromptu lesson from Pete Cowan, later to become one of Britain’s top golf coaches, I was attempting to come to grips with the quickest putting surfaces I had ever encountered when Flitcroft began scuttling balls in all directions, causing widespead mayhem and much disgruntlement. Before a major row erupted, he was called to the 1st tee where he produced a rickety pull cart and a set of weapons that had clearly seen better days from behind a privat hedge. The perplexed R&A Starter knew instantly that something was badly awry. He made a half-hearted effort to prevent Flitcroft from teeing off but the die was cast. 46-years old Maurice Flitcroft was about to enter the annals of Open Championship history. 121 strokes and five and a half hours later, as he left Formby’s 18th green, Flitcroft was besieged by a bevy of eager golf reporters and was being treated like a celebrity.
“I wasn’t really ready for this championship. I felt under the pressure of the big event. To be quite frank, I was a bit erratic but I did manage to pull it together towards the end of the round.” He told the gob-smacked press corps. Pulling it together must have been a reference to the only par on his card at the 14th. After a wild hook, he had hacked back onto the fairway before skulling a mid-iron that clattered into the flagstick and stopped dead in its scorching tracks within three feet of the hole.
“I’ve always been inspired by watching golf on the telly. I bought some secondhand clubs and started to practice in the field behind my Mum’s house. I am completely self-taught, you know, I’ve always been a bit of an athlete. I thought it would be nice to play in The Open with Jack Nicklaus and all that lot; it would give me some encouragement. After all, I haven’t reached my peak yet. Some of those top stars have been at it for years. I’m going to improve and be back next year, watch out! And if I manage to win, I’ll retire and take up painting. I’m quite an artist as well!” Flitcroft told the agape members of the media.
Nor was that the end of Mr. Flitcroft, he tried to tee it up again the following day but he was hastily escorted off the premises by several R&A officials. Believe it or not seven years later, when he said: ‘His golf had improved immeasurably and he was quite confident of breaking 100.’ Flincroft had his entry under the assumed name of Gerald Hoppy from Switzerland accepted again. He successfully teed off at Pleasington, making it as far as the ninth hole in 63 strokes, before a posse of R&A officials caught up with him. His final, parting shot to the press was: “Everything was going well and according to plan until I five-putted the 2nd.”
Back at Formby, after one of the most excruitiatingly slow rounds I have ever played, in which I managed to 3-putt an unprecendented seven times for an otherwise ‘unFlitcroft-like” 78, I arrived at the Recorder’s Tent half-an-hour after Flitcroft had departed, suffering from shock. I have to admit that golfers are a self-centered bunch. The cause of my discomfort was more due to my horror putting and being terror-stricken to see my Australian playing companion, Ron Wood, smash both his putter and driver into smithereens in quick succession before hurling them deep into the forest than the slowness of play.
Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: John Mayhugh on September 13, 2012, 01:04:56 PM
I still need to think a little about both courses, but what last week's golfing trip has shown me, is that the difference in quality between a Top 10 and a Top 20 course is very little indeed.

Though I didn't play Birkdale, the same could be said of comparing Formby with Silloth.  I really enjoyed the Formby dormy experience (snooker is one tough game!), but I think I like the course at Silloth a bit better.  Either is worth multiple rounds, and Formby does have the bonus of the ladies course. 
Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Jeff_Lewis on September 14, 2012, 10:53:03 AM
One of my most memorable golf days anywhere.  Thanks for the reminder.   Imagine how good if those holes hadn't been lost by the sea.
Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on September 18, 2012, 11:19:26 AM
I have just received a bottle of malt in the post by way of thanking me for setting up Formby.  The card is not signed, so I hope whoever has sent the bottle receives my humble thanks.  One never expects a gift for organizing, but it is always appreciated. 

Ciao
Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Lynn_Shackelford on September 18, 2012, 03:10:15 PM
Sean
It was not I.  However much thanks goes to organizing the group on good course with great weather and a fun experience staying at the club.
I talked with Ben Crenshaw yesterday and he said one year at an Open he hurried over to take a look the Formby.  He said he had heard much about it and thought it looked great and beautiful(I think he was surprised at the trees).  He said "don't they have a lot of junior tournaments there?"  I said yes.  I told him about the Ladies course and how it came to be.  He laughed saying "no dogs and ladies allowed here."  What course has that sign?
He further said he has never made it up to Silloth but has heard about it.

Now Sean, take your malt and go enjoy the Ladies course!
Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on September 18, 2012, 06:07:09 PM
Lynn

I am encouraged by the comments you lot made.  I suspect I would like Formby Ladies even more than you because I really enjoy the short courses which have not accommodated the long ball era - sort of stubborn like me.  I just have a hard time not playing the main course when I am up there - I like it so much. 

I don't know of a club with the sign you mention.  Legend has it that Little Aston used to have a sign prohibiting ladies from walking in front of the club house.  Somehow this seems like an urban legend, but one can never be sure as the English have a penchant for signs the likes of which is in my experience unique. 

Ciao
Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: MClutterbuck on February 10, 2015, 01:30:04 PM
Anybody have a picture from the tees of the 8th hole at Formby?
Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Ed Tilley on February 11, 2015, 03:33:49 AM
Anybody have a picture from the tees of the 8th hole at Formby?

(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i101/edtilley/P1000822.jpg)

Title: Re: FORMBY: Is This The Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Greg Taylor on February 11, 2015, 03:49:40 AM
I don't but I played there late last year and I seem to remember significant tree growth down the RHS.

It's a tough driving hole, but land it on the short stuff you do have a shot in... there is a pay off.
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on February 11, 2015, 06:26:10 AM
I think Formby is more fun over multiple rounds but I think Birkdale is a much better sorted course in all details and forms a more coherent design aesthetic.

Brent - curious statement...care to elaborate?

Ivan - thanks for the wonderful story!

Ciao
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Brent Hutto on February 11, 2015, 06:42:51 AM
I think Formby is more fun over multiple rounds but I think Birkdale is a much better sorted course in all details and forms a more coherent design aesthetic.

Brent - curious statement...care to elaborate?

Ciao

It seems to me that Royal Birkdale, which I admire greatly, has a very consistent character from hole to hole and throughout the round. It is an eminently "fair" championship style test of golf with the quirk and odd bounces we experience on many links courses pared away. It has been polished and perfected over decades of fine tuning. It is a course that will adequately sort out good play from poor play among the best players in the world but in a manner which good players tend to like and prefer.

So the "coherent design" involves large, deep, gathering bunkers but otherwise large and relatively flat fairways and greens. There is ample room off the tee and reasonably well played shots will almost always find a favorable lie. The rough can pinch in a bit depending on choice of mowing lines, especially as one gets closer to the greens. The turf is excellent which allows the course to play keenly in a breeze but is great to hit from. It's a very high quality example of the "right there in front of your" design ethic.

In contrast, there are plenty of rough edges and at least a bit of quirk at Formby.  Moreover there is about as much variety among the holes and throughout the beginning, middle, end of the round as you're ever going to find at a links course. Compared to Birkdale where you feel like you've just played 18 variants on the same basic challenge, at Formby you walk away feeling you've played two or three different courses in one.

Put the best players in the world at Formby and they will not find it as eminently "fair" as Birkdale. And some of the holes would be quite weak for elite bombers, unlike Birkdale which is somewhat consistently challenging. For a double-digit handicapper on vacation however, Formby gives far more value. A good multi-round holiday trip might include a round at Birkdale along with rounds at a couple of other nearby courses for variety. Formby on the other hand has just as much to offer on the third or fourth play as it did on the first. Heck it took about three rounds before I could even remember which holes were the shorter or longer ones or recall which greens were flat and which were more contoured.
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on February 11, 2015, 06:55:46 AM
It is interesting that you rate the "consistency" in design at Birkdale higher than the variety at Formby.  My take would be just the opposite, but I don't much care about top notch play.  That said, I think Formby can throw up some serious challenges for flat bellies.  But man, with the crossing wind holes and doglegs causing drive line havoc, Birkdale is a tough driving course.  Reminds me a lot of Portrush, but P'rush has the added element of obscured drive lines as well. 

Ciao
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: jeffwarne on February 11, 2015, 10:40:02 AM
I think Formby is more fun over multiple rounds but I think Birkdale is a much better sorted course in all details and forms a more coherent design aesthetic.

Brent - curious statement...care to elaborate?

Ciao



Put the best players in the world at Formby and they will not find it as eminently "fair" as Birkdale. And some of the holes would be quite weak for elite bombers,


Brent,
All thoughtful interesting comments.
While perhaps not the "best players in the world"but  the 2013 Senior Open Qualifying was held at Formby, Hillside, and Southport & Ainsdale.
The lowest score recorded at Formby in light seaside winds and 80 degrees was 71, and 74 got you a spot at The Senior Open.
Yes, there are holes that the elite players can neutralize a bit, but they become very scary in firm and fast conditions, and there are plenty of difficult challenging holes to offset the opportunities.A great balance of holes

Interesting that a tree lined course wold be chosen as possibly the best links in Northern England, but I cannot disagree.
But then I've always enjoyed the odd tree on a links, particularly along the edges as a course transitions from linksland such as those found at Portsalon on the higher ground.
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: MClutterbuck on February 11, 2015, 07:11:35 PM
Thanks Ed! I had a person comparing this hole with another par 5 in another course. Quite a lot of similarities.
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Josh Stevens on February 11, 2015, 07:27:04 PM
Never played it, but it looks fun.  I can see why it might be regarded as half links half heathland, but that may just be trees

The bunkers however do not do much for me.  Most seem to be rather simple little round dishes of little aesthetic merit, but there are clearly several other contrasting styles suggesting perhaps different designers have had a fiddle and left their mark.
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on February 12, 2015, 05:25:07 AM
Josh

For the most part I agree with you RE the bunker look.  Formby has such great texture that it seems a shame the bunkers don't add to the mix.  I usually don't mind pots too much, but if they are going to be used I would like to seem them more like Hoylake's or Muirfield's.  That said, I do think a case could be made for varying styles at Formby due to the variety of settings...especially off the tee.  Its incredible how many different looks the course offers from the tee...a real strength of design.  If you notice, the newish bunker on #7 departs from the pot style...its not great aesthetically, but its a move in the right direction given the placement of the bunker. 


Ciao
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Mark Chaplin on February 12, 2015, 05:54:34 AM
The first 4/5 holes are definitely heath in character and play - don't forget a heath will take the ground game when dry and the finish has a heathland quality. Formby is a proper club and well worth a visit and at a much lower cost than Royal Birkdale. Classic example of a top second tier UK course.
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Josh Stevens on February 12, 2015, 07:14:36 AM
"Proper Club" now there is a term that is hard to define.  If you have to ask, you don't understand
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Greg Taylor on February 12, 2015, 07:48:37 AM
"Proper Club" now there is a term that is hard to define.  If you have to ask, you don't understand

Love that, and yup you're right...!
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on February 13, 2015, 06:02:56 AM
The first 4/5 holes are definitely heath in character and play - don't forget a heath will take the ground game when dry and the finish has a heathland quality. Formby is a proper club and well worth a visit and at a much lower cost than Royal Birkdale. Classic example of a top second tier UK course.

Chappers

I would consider Formby most definitely top tier...having hosted several Ams and with a lofty top 50 GB&I ranking.

Ciao
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Niall C on February 13, 2015, 06:52:43 AM
I always thought of the top tier as being the Open rota courses, past (in the case of Prestwick) and present. Irrespective it does look a cracking course, and at first sight I'd agree with Mark's comments regarding the heathland character of some of the holes. I'll be interested to see how it looks in the flesh.

Niall
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on February 13, 2015, 06:58:37 AM
Niall

Sure, its a matter of opinion, but then if we only consider Open or championship courses as 1st tier what about

Co Down
Ballybunion
Lahinch
Dornoch
......

You get the picture.

Ciao
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Niall C on February 13, 2015, 09:21:20 AM
Sean

My top tier comment wasn't based on what I think the best/favourite courses are but rather the A list courses for tour operators. A good friend of mine who does golf tours tells me that's the Open rota courses but now you're in the business you can tell me different  ;D

Niall
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Jon Wiggett on February 13, 2015, 01:58:16 PM
Does that mean Musselburgh Old is top tier ;) As Anthony P said '9 holes, you got to love it ;D
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Duncan Cheslett on December 10, 2016, 01:59:58 AM
I love Formby, and played there yesterday for the first time in a year or so.


I couldn't believe the state of the greens! They were bumpy, uneven, spongey, and covered in fuserium patches. Word is that they have a massive problem with thatch.


I know that it is winter and allowances have to be made, but Formby's greens are currently in a worse state that most municipal parkland courses. I'd love to know what is going on.


Interestingly, we wandered over to the 18th green of the Ladies Course and found it in immaculate condition!


Very strange...
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Jon Wiggett on December 10, 2016, 04:09:31 AM
Sad to hear Duncan,


I have played Formby quite a bit though the last time was over 10 years ago. I do like it but do not hold it in as high regard as some on here. I am surprised about the fuserium as I would have thought that was a thing of the past. Too much feed too late in the season me thinks.


Jon
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Links In Northern England?
Post by: Sean_A on July 23, 2017, 04:01:06 AM
Well, for folks tired of looking at Birkdale on tv, take a look at the updated tour of the best course in the north of England.  The place was in splendid condition the Monday prior to the Open and there wasn't much wind about.  Holes easy to pooh pooh such as 3 and 17 really shine when conditions are keen.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32146.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32146.0.html)

Ciao
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Course In Northern England?
Post by: Duncan Cheslett on March 20, 2018, 04:19:25 PM
I was back again at Formby today on a beautiful sunny morning and enjoyed the course and clubhouse as much as ever.


It was very interesting playing Formby in the company of well-known golf arboriculturist John Nicholson. He put the "is it a links or is it a heathland?" argument to bed by pointing out that links and heathland are basically the same eco-culture. Formby is by the sea so it's a links.


John was somewhat thrown by the sheer quantity of pine trees. On the front nine especially he thought they obscured many interesting dune landforms and interfered with play far too much. I am hesitant to agree with him fully - for me Formby IS the trees. In the main part they form a majestic backdrop well away from play and add considerably to the unique character of the place.


I'd almost forgotten how good the bank nine is - the holes on open links land after emerging from the forest on 7 and 8. It's a pity 17 and particularly 18 don't quite live up to the rest - but flat ground is flat ground.


The greens are still a cause for concern however, 15 months on from my visit above. Clear signs of a fuserium outbreak earlier in the winter are visible on most greens, together with bobbly surfaces. Quite why a windy links course should suffer chronically from fuserium is a little puzzling. It surely can't all be down to the trees?


Don't let that put anyone off visiting Formby though. It's a lovely place!
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Course In Northern England?
Post by: Thomas Dai on March 20, 2018, 05:16:43 PM
Played both Formby and Formby Ladies a couple of months ago. Liked them both a lot. I’d heard about the trees on the main course but didn’t realise the extent until reaching the 7th and 8th holes. Both terrific holes incidentally. Before and after 7-8 they didn’t seem to effect things much. As to the greens, well on the Formby GC course were not of the standard that most links greens are in during the winter but they weren’t poor. On the Ladies course they were very soft and sponge like though (to much watering/thatch?). Interestingly the two clubs have two separate greenkeeping crews.

When your there look out for the house of a recent former Liverpool and England football captain located near the rear of the clubhouse. You can’t really miss it for it has 5 lifesize reproduction stone European Cups/Champions League Trophy’s unsubtlely displayed on the roofline. :(

Atb


Edit. Some photos from 2018 now added.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5Tocc3XoAA_l50.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5Tocc5WsAAocam.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5Tocc6W4AAkImR.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5Tocc6XsAE0UCw.jpg)
Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Course In Northern England?
Post by: Michael Wolf on March 20, 2018, 05:38:52 PM

I absolutely loved Formby when I visited for the first time in the fall of 2015. In much the same way I favor SFGC over Olympic and Sommerset Hills over Baltusrol, it just had an intangible "feel" that made me wish I was a member. My sense was I'd enjoy playing, walking and drinking at Formby more than the other nearby clubs? Hard to put a finger on exactly why sometimes, as they are all obviously wonderful places.


FWIW, my group consisted of a PGA Tour winner, a scratch club pro, an 18 handicap senior golfer and myself a middle age 8 handicap, and between the 4 of us it was the one course of the 7 we played in the Liverpool area that we all loved. Jimmy Herman our tour pro favored Birkdale, the club pro liked Hillside and our senior favored Hoylake, while I though L&A great. But Formby was the one where we combined to have the most fun, the best match, and walked off 18 trying to figure out how to make room in our schedule to play again on our trip. I thought it was a perfect mix of comfortable landing areas alternated with shots that had to be executed just right.


A question we had - has the predicted erosion that necessitated the rerouting actually come to pass? When we visited it looked like their was still quite a bit of land below the turn that could have still been employed closer to the water?


And one more question, just to be nosey - from the parking lot and surrounding neighborhood it appeared Formby membership the wealthiest of the Liverpool area?


Thanks, Michael



Title: Re: FORMBY: Best Course In Northern England?
Post by: Duncan Cheslett on March 21, 2018, 02:20:16 AM


And one more question, just to be nosey - from the parking lot and surrounding neighborhood it appeared Formby membership the wealthiest of the Liverpool area?


Thanks, Michael


Formby is certainly one of the more affluent suburbs of Liverpool - it has more of a "village" feel than a suburb.


The real money however, is to be found on the Wirral in Cheshire, across the River Mersey from Liverpool. On this basis and my own experience I would suspect that the wealthiest golf club membership in the area is at Hoylake.


Given the number of footballers who are members however, maybe Hillside takes the crown.


Birkdale incidentally,  doesn't allow footballers!