Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Don_Mahaffey on June 21, 2002, 10:31:13 PM
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I'm a few days away from escaping the desert heat for some Northern Michigan golf and relaxation. I'm meeting up with fellow GCA'er Joe Hancock to play Pilgrims Run and the Kingsley Club, but I also plan on playing a few days with my father-in-law and I'm wondering if there are any hidden gems in the TC area. This is my first summer time trip to MI in some time and I know most of the well known courses. I'm curious if anyone would recommend any courses in the area that don't get the hype or spend the marketing dollars. Last time I played there (1994), I played a couple of narrow, tree lined courses that didn't excite me, but I know quite a few courses have been built since then. Thanks for any advice.
BTW, Joe, I saw your post about shooting 76 at POW, between jet lag, mosquitoes and mothers-in-law, I figure I'll need a couple a side :)
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The obvious one for me is High Pointe, some great stuff out there. Two diverse nines, one open and one in the trees, some fabulous green complexes. I think it cost us all of $35.00 to play. A bargain.
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There is a course up that way called Brigadoon. When I asked a local about it he replied, "we call it bring a dozen". Not a recommendation, but it was amusing at the time. :)
I would second Craig's recommendation of High Pointe. I would ask Mike D. for his recommendations or give Fred Muller a call at Crystal Downs and he certainly knows the area. Have a great trip and I look forward to seeing what you thought about Kingsley.
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nothing new here.
high pointe would be a must. one of my all-time favorites. play 36 if you can. walking the front is easy; the back is a little more of a challenge. don't be long, right, or left on eleven.
to continue on the doak theme, i would recommend making the trip to the black forest course at wilderness valley. it is a little south gaylord, approximately an hour away. it can be a little severe at times, but a real treat both from a design standpoint, i.e. green complexes, as well as visually. one frustration for me is that i could not imagine walking the course due to the distance between tees as well as its proximity to the clubhouse. but other than that, i love the course.
i have not seen arcadia bluffs, but i hear it is a visually stunning course. the course is well documented on this website.
i would recommend staying away from the bear at the grand traverse resort. my curiousity got the best of me a couple of years ago and i played 36 there one weekend. my time would have been better spent sticking to high pointe.
hope you have a good time.
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Don,
You'll love Pilgrim's Run. I played it about 2 years before it opened because I knew the Super/Designer, Kris Shuemaker. It's so good. Mike DeVries' greens and bunkers are the character to the golf course. Joe, I might be playing golf with Mike at Diamond Springs Monday. Diamond Springs was another collaberation by Kris and Mike. I've only heard good things. Mike talked a bit about it in his interview several months ago. Enjoy!!
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Don, having seen a glimpse of your game (not much) but realizing your abilities and eye for design and knowledge of GCM, besides the ussual suspects named above, I would definitely go to Arcadia Bluffs about an hours drive from TC. I would hope that they give you some sort of reciprical or prof-courtesy to play CD. I'd put them in order of priority as CD, KC, AB, and HP. If you are so fortunate to play all of those, I don't know what else a fellow could possibly want for in life... 8)
However, be advised it has been a scuzzy spring up hear, rain and soft conditions and turf growth out of this world. Soil is near field capacity everywhere. If it would stop raining for 2 weeks things wouldn't even firm up. Now it is muggy. I gotta believe that all of those courses mentioned that usually feature lovely fescue and native rough areas are just a tangle of lush and impossible conditions, but I could be wrong - I hope. :-[
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Don,
That settles it. I'm making arrangements for us to play Arcadia in the a.m., and Kingsley in the p.m. Anyone else up to the punishment better give me a call soon! We're shooting for July 2nd, as We've secured a playing slot at Kingsley already. RJ, what exactly is Don's game? He's begging for strokes due to bugs, jet lag and mothers-in-law. I guess that means my mother-in-law will die before he gets here, and the bugs will only bother him. If thats true, then I'll give him 3 a side! After what I threw at the boys yesterday, I may even...oh, never mind.
Charity doesn't become me,
Joe
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Joe, once again I prove that "loose lips sink ships" or putts or something like that. :-/ You do seem like a very charitable guy Joe, and if you are at home, I think it would be very sporting of you to give poor "Cactus Don" - sheik of the desert winds - a few strokes just for the heat and humidity. ::)
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Don,
The Belvedere Club
Charlevoix,Michigan
Willie Watson,1917
Built with the knowlege that this would be his retirement home.An easy drive from Traverse City.Three holes are in George Thomas's book.Very friendly to outside play. A favorite of Tom Watson.Play the course and then get directions to Hemingway's father's summer home where the lad formed many of his ideas on outdoor life.
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Don,
I've spent summers near TC forever, and lived here for the last 2 years, so I've played or seen most of the courses in the area. I'm not quite sure what your post is looking for. Pilgrim's Run is quite a hike from Traverse City, so if you're looking for "Northern and Western Michigan" golf, it's a pretty big selection. Others have touched on the area's top courses, which are also the area's top greens-fees (with the exception of High Pointe). If you're looking for lesser-known, but interesting designs, Belvedere is up there (I haven't personally played it, but have heard good things about its design). Bay Harbor gets a lot of press, but I can't imagine there's anything there that justifies a $250 greens fee - though I haven't yet had the inclination to put up the $250 to find out if I'm right. If you're looking for golf that costs less than a C-note per afternoon, the two Traverse area courses on which I play most of my golf are Mistwood (near Lake Anne), and Champion Hill (near Beulah). With Northern Michigan's summer nights, and twi-light rates at the courses, a 3:00 or 4:00 start should get you 36 holes at less than $1 per hole. One must-avoid is The Crown in Traverse City. I played it once, and got lost 3 times before finishing 18 holes (so the routing is a little akward). Tom Doak tells me that its construction was stalled when they discovered they were building one hole through someone's back yard. It's pretty easy to guess which hole this is, and moving the tee 50 yards up results in one of the worst 6-iron/wedge par 4's you'll ever play. It gets a lot of league play, and one of the local High Schools uses it as its home course, but it has to be one of the most confused designs I've ever seen.
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Thanks for the tips,
The tip on Belvedere is exactly what I was looking for. I figured High Pointe would be mentioned, but I had read mixed reviews and I'm glad to see it was mentioned by a few folks. I'm sure we will end up there.
John,
We are flying in and out of Grand Rapids (sister lives there), but we will be spending most of our time in TC.
Joe,
Not impressed by my whining? OK, head to head it is. See you in a few days.
Thanks folks.
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I played Belvedere and it is a blast, the greens are pretty fantastic stuff.
I would also chime in for Arcadia Bluffs.
Skip Bay Harbor though, you can play High Pointe, Arcadia and Belvedere for less than one round there.
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Don,
I thought I would chime in as well, I could go on and on about Crystal and such but I think its all been stated. CD, KC, HP, AB would be my priority list, as I think thats what I hope to play when I'm up there visiting in early fall/late summer, but I may just spend the whole time playing CD, jeez don't get me started. To throw one out there that is truelly unique, I would have to say Frankfurt Golf Club, its only nine holes but it is one of the funkiest layouts I've played, I think I pulled driver all of once, but I love something truely different and this is certianly that. I honestly don't know who layed out the course architecturally but Mike Morris the outstanding superintendent was the super there prior to heading CD. Other than the obvious stated I don't know much else around there as I am a "Sconsin" boy who just got the pleasure of playing N. Mich while at MSU.
Regards
Kyle
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Don,
Dan Lucas, super at Kingsley, also threw in Belvedere, so I'm thinking if worse came to worse, I could be talked into staying for another round on the morning of the 3rd.....ugh, what am i saying? My wife is used to me golfing, but this temptation is getting out of hand! Do you suppose a couple hundred and a day in TC shopping for her while we golf would help? On top of all this, another GCA'er is talking to me about going down the road to the opening of Crystal Springs on Monday......
Signed,
Doomed
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Kyle,
What are the chances of Plattalia being open? ;D
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Joe,
Sounds like a plan to me. Everything comes with a price and mine was a night at the Grand Hotel, your getting off cheap for a couple of hundred at the TC mall :) Seriously, Belvedere sounds like a must see, lets do it!
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Don,
Sorry I cannot join you.
Skip High Pointe. It is only loved by those who say anything Doak is great for fear of offending him or those who remember the course many years ago. There is a reason that Digest does not put it in the top twenty-five in Michigan and that it has disappeared from all rankings. I have gone through this rant before. The course today is slightly better than mediocre. I know about twenty people who post on this board and completely agree with me. I won't out them because of their friendship with Tom. Arcadia Bluffs is a cannot miss. If you are not opposed to one hour drives, the Smith Course, Fazio Course and Threetops (9-hole par three) is an excellent day of golf.
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Don
High Pointe has seen better days, the maintenance practices are very poor. I don't think Doak would even recommend the course, but if you are a student of golf course architecture I'd give it a look see. You must take Wiggies' comments with a grain of salt, he believes Flint Hills is a "bullet proof" 7 and doesn't get Rustic Canyon. His tastes are largely influenced by his game and they lean more toward the superficial.
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David,
Other than the poor maintenance and the absolutely horrible 18th hole, what didn't you like about the course? I played there 2 years ago, twice in fact, with other members of GCA and we found the course to be an enjoyable and challenging course and a bargain at $35.00. You can e-mail me your rant if you'd like. Do you find it without architectual merit or is conditioning your criteria?
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Frank, isn't that the same DW that thinks Southern Hills is better than Prairie Dunes, big grain of salt, that fellas course rating guide should be marked by the SG.
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Don, I would suggest that you play Kingsley twice (as a member I am a bit biased); Highpointe and Mistwood (the orginal 18) are the two gem courses close to TC that I would recommend that are not the dreaded resort golf. The Legend (Palmer) at Shanty Creek is a beautiful course if you want a dose of resort golf :o.
I have not played Arcadia and hear great things about the course but many say that it is not a course that you would want ot play a couple of times a week. Crystal Downs is near impossible to get onto in July without a member. As the Bob Pillard (Kingsley Pro) if there is any way to pull it off. I second the recommendation to play Frankfort Country Club (9 hole course), very old fashioned golf. Take your hickory sticks to get a better feel for the course.
To please your wife, I would suggest the following restaurants The Old Mission Tavern about 12 miles north of town (nice drive no reservation and nice art gallery), Haddies in Suttons Bay (about 18 miles from TC, suggest reservation). Also there are some nice wine tours....just ask anyone.
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Re Frankfort -
That is the first course I ever played, and I still remember going around it with my dad. I remember being completely overwhelmed by the course, and played it again a couple years ago, just to see if I could get even with a couple of the holes. Unless you have a huge sentimental attachment to the course, I can't see that there's much there. The course combines dense brush next to the fairways with blind shots on a short course in a very frustrating manner. If your idea of fun golf is trying to hit a 4-iron off a tee to the blind corner of a sharp dogleg, then running over the hill to see if your shot ran through the fairway and is stuck under a bush, you'll love golf at Frankfort. Otherwise, there are about 75 courses within an hour's drive that offer better golf.
Re TC area wines -
Now this is an important part of the discussion. My favorite regional wines are - Bowers Harbor Pinot Grigio, Mawby Cremant Champagne, and Shady Lane Pinot Noir. I'd put them up against any in the world in their price category.
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Frank,
Do I know you? I do not remember ever posting on Rustic Canyon. In fact, I thought the greens at Rustic Canyon were some of the best I had ever seen. The green complexes were absolutely brilliant. I had an issue with too many short par fours, but on a whole, really enjoyed the course. Given the context of what it was built for, I thought that they did a masterful job. I also played pretty well for me (-2 after 12 holes shot 78ish).
Out of curiosity, what did you think Flint Hills should be on the Doak scale? What do you think High Pointe should be? Who are you and why do you think you know me?
Lurker - anyone who makes personal attacks and lacks the guts to post under their real name is obviously a wimpy loser. Given that, I am going to assume that you have never played either Prairie Dunes or Southern Hills so explaining my preference to you would be a waste of time.
Don,
This reaffirms even more my belief that you should skip High Pointe. The only person who gets a bigger free pass then Tom Doak is the Pope. (This is an unfair comment in the context of High Pointe. It is not bad - It just is not one of the top 5 in Northern Michigan) If you dislike it, you will be forced to shut up or else face the wrath of a bunch of people who hope Doak will one day include them in Archipalooza and are willing to sell their souls for the invitation.
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Craig,
I will reply on the board and the answer is a little of both. Don is coming all the way from Arizona and has a couple of days to play golf. I completely agree with you that at $35.00, High Pointe is a terrific bargain. When I travel, I try to play the best courses that I can, given that I never know if I will get back to the area. Cost and bargains are not concerns of mine. If Don lived in Michigan, I would tell him that he had better see High Pointe one of these days as some of the green complexes are inspired. On the other hand, the maintenance is puke and some of Doak’s features have been removed from the course. It changes more for the worse each year. If Don only has a few rounds, I would recommend Crystal, Kingsley, Pilgrims, Arcadia, Heather, Smith, Bay Harbor (Only to see how a mediocre design can take one of the best pieces of property I have ever seen and turn it into a bottom top 100 - This course should have been a bulletproof top 10 – Imagine what Doak could have done here), Legend (For a very fun and relaxing round on a classic resort course), or Belvedere. Heck, I would even recommend the Bear for a student of architecture. It may be the worst course Nicklaus ever built and it is a great study in what not to do in golf course design. With all of those choices, I just do not see a reason to work in a course that is a bargain but no longer a great golf course.
Does that make sense?
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Thanks everyone for all the responses. As David writes I have limited time to play and I enjoy getting off the beaten path and seeing lesser known courses. Whether I get to High Point or not will depend on time, but I will at the very least probably try and go see it just to satisfy my curiosity. Some great golf has been lined up for me and hopefully the weather will cooperate. I love good golf courses, but more then likely some of the best golf I will play will be the daily 7pm tee off with my 9 year old and my father in law at a little nine holer in town called (I think) Mitchell Creek. Believe it or not, there is not one decent short course in Southern Arizona (too many real estate courses) and I look forward to a course I can play with my son.
David, (my invite to Archipalooza must have been lost in the mail :)) I'm warming up for the 22nd. Thanks for the info and I'll see you in a month, and yes I'll pay off my wager (double or nothing on the British?).
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Don,
Give me Tiger and Garcia and I will take the bet site unseen. If I only get Tiger, then I want to wait 1 round again. Have fun up north.
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Don,
I would look into either Pinecroft Golf Plantation or Champion Hill, both in Benzie County - about 1/2 hour from T.C. Both newer, natural and inexpensive (around $40). Both are pretty courses with some interesting, quirky holes. If you're still looking around, I would consider both of these.
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David
Who cares about the Doak scale? Do you judge your golf course architecture based on the fuzzy Doak scale?
When a relatively mundane design is a 'bullet proof 7', what does that say about the Doak scale's architectural usefullness. And when a course with bold and interesting architecture is deemed 'mediocre', for what ever reason, what does that say about your judgement or points of emphasis? If Don's interest is architecture I'd recommend High Pointe over Flint Hills every time, I'm not sure how that translates on your scale.
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Frank,
You find Flint Hills National a "relatively mundane design" and High Pointe a "course with bold and interesting architecture"? I do not know how to respond. To me, it is your judgment that is seriously in question. You are the first person I have ever heard who played Flint Hills and described it as such. You did play it, I assume? GD had it rated as the #1 new private course in America several years ago, so I would venture to guess my opinion of Flint is a lot more mainstream than yours. I am guessing that you are just another blind Fazio basher.
As for Doak's "Fuzzy" scale, I have no idea what you are talking about. Doak describes a "7" quite clearly as "An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning, and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf." I find nothing "fuzzy" about that description at all. It is quite clear. You have read Doak's book, haven't you? Flint Hills National is a bulletproof 7. Doak's description fits that course perfectly.
You did not answer my other question. Why do you think you know me? Have we met and I cannot place your name or face? Where did you think you got my impression of Rustic Canyon? I only played it two weeks ago. Where did you get the opinion that I rate courses based on how I play them from (Interesting note, I did not break 80 on either of the two courses I have rated highest)? I do appreciate aesthetic features, so that part of your post was true, but the rest was hogwash and posed as though we are friends who discuss golf. If I actually know who you are and we have had discussions, then I apologize for not remembering you. If not, then making up my opinions on Rustic Canyon and how I rate courses is in extremely poor taste.
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driving up I'd steer you to Tullymoore, it's a great test if you can get over some very strange looking bunkering. On bunkering, some of the best looking bunkers I've ever seen are at Black Forest. BF, IMHO does not get the respect it deserves. I'm on record as saying it's in my top 5 in MI.
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anthony nysse,
i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on diamond springs. i'm planning on a weekend trip to western michigan and would like to include it on my trip. i haven't found anything online with information about the course, however.
will wang
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David Wigler:
Given your comments to Craig Edgmand about High Pointe, I gather you wouldn't recommend Pacific Grove to those visiting Monterey for the first time, would you?
Fair enough. But, I've had great fun on the cool nine at Pacific Grove and would have no hesitation recommending it to people traveling a long distance.
Beyond that, I'm with Craig in terms of appreciation for High Pointe and it has nothing to do with looking for some invitation from Tom Doak.
It was conceived as being a fun course with interesting shots, but one you didn't have to pay a fortune to play.
Isn't that the sort of thing we should be encouraging?
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Don M,
I played High Pointe 2 years ago, pre my entry into GCA, and I'd play it again in a minute. There are several very distinct architectural features that I can recall immediately that would compel me to return: the green complexes at 7, 8, 11, 13 and 16 and the cross bunkering on the par 5 9th. Generally a very good routing too, though the 18th hole is a real head scratcher. ??? Sure the conditions may not be what they were intended to be or what we'd like them to be, but there's more than enough "there there" to make it worth your while.
All The Best,
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Tim,
You ask a good question so let me answer it in two parts but add a caveat first. I have never played Pacific Grove. I might play the course, fall in love and recommend it to everyone. As you have seen, I am not afraid to like what others don't and visa versa. That written, I'll answer your question in the context of my response to Don.
Let's say Don had asked for advice on Monterey. I know that Don is from Arizona, so he is traveling a long way. I know from the fact that he is playing Crystal and Kingsley (The best two privates in the area) that he has access to any private course. I know from the fact that he is considering Arcadia and Bay Harbor (Both over $200) that money is not an object. I know that he is willing to drive 1 1/2 hours and I know that he has limited time. Given all that I knew when I responded to his question, if the question were Monterey, I would not recommend Pacific Grove in a million years. Pacific Grove over Cypress, Pebble, Spyglass, Pasatiempo, Stanford, MPCC 1, MPCC 2 (Maybe Spanish and Poppy). Why in the world would I send him to Pacific when he could play any of the rest? Would you send him to Pacific?
As for your description, I believe you have accurately described Pacific. I do not think that was Doak's intent at High Pointe. Remember that High Pointe was on Golf's top 100 in the country list right up until Doak left the panel. Doak speaks of it in his books first addition as one of the finest courses in the country. It was not intended to be a fun, interesting, low cost golf course. It was intended to be a world-class golf course and the showpiece for Doak to jump-start his architecture business. Its price (As well as its condition, features, etc.) has been reduced over the years.
I hope that makes sense. If Don had said that he was on a tight budget and did not have the ability to see private courses, I would recommend High Pointe all day long and feel comfortable doing so.
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Craig and Tim
Did that answer your question? I still have no idea why he would not recommend the course to someone who appreciates interesting architecture. Condition? Actually I do, David has little appreciation for architecture. He thinks by dissing Doak and praising Fazio it shows he has balls when it comes to evaluation, but when pressed to give details. Nothing. A bullet proof 7 doesn't say much about the architectural details.
Doak and Fazio have both produced excellent courses and both have produced dogs. But BS like these outlandish indictments of those who may appreciate High Pointe.....weak generalizations.....an inability to articulate architectural virtues, or lack of virtues, doesn't help either architect's reputation and the appreciation for good golf design.
Don
Check out High Pointe.....I'd love to get your opinion.....pro and con. Here is the profile I've discovered from GCA. Maybe it was profiled so Mr.Morrissett would get an invite to Archipalooza. ;D
I think this profile may be a window into David's architecural tastes and the opposite tastes of those who find courses like High Pointe and Rustic Canyon interesting.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/highpointe000165.html
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David W,
Just curious--what features of High Pointe have been reduced over the years? I've heard the grass is different but is there anything else?
All the Best,
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Frank,
You still have avoided my question but you mention Rustic Canyon again. Are you hoping to sound smart by mentioning a course that highly discussed? Why are you so insistent that I did not like Rustic Canyon? Who are you? Why do you feel comfortable using a nickname used by friends like Shooter, Stettner, and Conley? What are your architectural credentials that you feel so comfortable personally attacking mine? Do you work in the golf business? Do you know how to read, since you never want to answer any questions? I actually wrote a quite extensive piece on Flint Hills last year. I also wrote a detailed hole-by-hole review of High Pointe and got into a lengthy discussion with Tom Doak over it on a thread of match play between High Pointe and Victoria National (Coincidentally another Fazio that you have probably never played but would bash given your love for blind Fazio bashing). Figure out the archives and you can read my detailed architectural opinion of both courses.
I do not think dissing Doak and praising Fazio takes balls. I think Flint Hills is a superior course to High Pointe. In fact, Golf Digest had Flint as the best new course in the country while High Pointe did not make the top 25 in Michigan. In fact, Golfweek had Flint Hills National in their top 100 in the country and High Point did not make their best in Michigan (I think - I cannot find state-by-state). My opinion is very mainstream and not gutsy at all. What is your issue with Flint Hills National? Can I assume from your lack of an answer that you have never played the course? Do you even know where the course is or is your opinion based on TV? I am sure, given your previous response, that you will again use personal attacks and avoid answering whether you have played Flint, feel it is better than High Pointe, and why you think you know my opinions and me. If that is the case, I am done discussing it with you.
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Re High Pointe -
I've played the course at least once a year from its opening to the present, more in the last couple of years.
Tom Doak replaced High Pointe with Stonewall in the "Gourmet Choice" in his second edition of TCG, which was a little bit before he gave up tabulating the Golf Magazine ratings. I don't think that Doak feels that High Pointe belongs in the top-100 any more than the raters who have stopped voting for it. Price-wise, High Pointe is about where it was on its opening. They've had a large turnover in managers of the course, and as many visions for how the course should be marketed, so there have been lots of short-term variations with no real long-term trends.
The entire course used to be fescue (tees, greens, fairways, rough). In the mid-90s, the course made a decision to change to bent greens, to compete prestige-wise with the higher dollar courses around TC. The current course is all fescue, with the exception of the greens.
Some of the trees around the landing area of the fifth hole were lost - which opens up some of the driving options on that hole. The hill on the tenth hole which protruded from the left into the middle of the fairway was flattened. The slopes around the eleventh green were also changed to accomodate a cart path around the green. The slopes behind and to the left of the green are not as severe as they used to be. The tees for the eighteenth hole have been repositioned about a dozen times, but nothing really works there that doesn't make the hole (i) too hard for the bogey golfer and (ii) too easy for the scratch golfer. There have been changes to the course, but in their sum, they're pretty subtle unless you're looking hard for them.
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Frank,
I accept the fact that David wouldn't recommend High Pointe and that there is also some truth that certain architects do get a free pass here, but I think it has more to do with the style of architecture they create and not for free invites. I still highly recommend the first 17 holes of High Pointe to anyone. ;D
However the arguement about Golf Digest rating Flint best new private is weak at best. Sandpines in Oregon was the best new public course one year and Kingsley Club didn't make the list. Go figure.
I wouldn't however recommend Bay Harbor to anyone, not even as an example of bad architecture or wasted potential. I think it was rated in the top 5 in Michigan. A huge waste of time and money. Play Belvedere 4 or 5 times for that money and have a blast.
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Just for the record, I was not bashing Flint, I'm sure its a fine course, just one of the arguments to support it. I've never seen it and I wouldn't presume to comment on it.
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David
Bla..Bla..Bla..Bla..Bla..Bla.......when all fails pull out the Fazio bashing card. This has nothing to do with Fazio or Doak, this has to do with your ability to recognize decent architecture when you see it.
Flint Hills....one of the more forgetable golf courses. Sorry Tommy Devlin...you're a good man.
Wide fairways without a single internal hazard and utterly lacking any interesting natural movement. Beautifully framed by fescue and good-looking bunkers, unfortunately both are largely out of play.....grip it and rip it, mindless, strategy impared golf....over and over and over and over again. The most memorable holes feature man-made water hazards....yawn....and they ain't so memorable. Five one shotters, three with water....forgetable. Greens are above average...slightly. There is not a single standout hole among the eighteen...bad sign. A bullet-proof bore.
By the way no one cares what Golf, Golf Digest or Golf Week have to say....easy for you to hide behind.
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Will,
I found Diamond Springs to be VERY enjoyable. The way the course is maintained is very unique, with everything being mowed at one height(Tees, fairways and colars) The cross bunkers on #4, #11 and #16 are all farther than the eye thinks. There are many risk/reward holes and many different ways to play many holes. #5 has a green that is awesome...much contour. #9, #14-18 all run along the ravine and match any set of holes in the area. The greens on #11, 12 and 13 have some growing to do, but all in all, and course you will not be disappointed in. The clubhouse is also really cool and fitting to the golf course. E-mail me if you need directions there. I'd also look into playing Thousand Oaks, and Rees Jones course that opened in 2000. Big sprawling golf course that feels like Northern Michigan and I'd also look into playing DeVries' other course, Pilgrim's Run, about a half hour north of Grand Rapids. Both were rated #4 best new affordable in the yearss they opened.
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Tony,
Man, did you just comment on the clubhouse? I know I have to give you a hard time once in awhile. Glad to hear you enjoyed your Devriesathon, good for you. You better plan on playing Plattalia when I come and visit the great north, as far as I know Mr. Krause will have it opened for the 4th of July, I won't be able to make the grand opening, but I'll use my one and only guest pass to get you on when I'm up in late Aug, or early Sept., can't wait.
Regards
Kyle
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David Wigler:
I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Pacific Grove to anyone visiting Monterey even if money were no object. Sure, half the course isn't worth the visit, but the other half is like I said, really fun. I make this recommendation having already sampled all the prominent Monterey courses, most on multiple occasions.
Would I fly from Cleveland to Monterey to play Pacific Grove? Obviously not. But, if I'm there, I know I'll have an enjoyable time.
As for High Pointe, I'm sure any architect starting out would want to build the best course possible. But, I think you are being unfair not to credit Tom Doak on the issue of cost. Don't you think the original design, approach to construction and Tom's ideas for maintenance had affordability in mind?
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Don, I would have never thought that I would see Mitchell Creek referenced on this esteemed site ;). If it rains the day before you may need to bring your waders. I would suggest that you take your grandson to the back nine at Elmbrook (short, lots of hills and more interesting greens).
By the way, I have 11 year old sons and they love playing Kingsley. Take your grandson there in the evening (almost no one is there) and he will love the hills, the sand and the green complexes (they really facinate my kids versus my southern Michigan Country Club).
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Tim,
I have no idea what Doak's construction budget was at High Pointe or how it compares to its contemporaries. I would imagine Pacific Grove was built for a cost (In comparable dollars) that is nowhere near Cypress, Pebble, etc. If High Pointe was built on the cheap and designed for the low cost round, then I stand corrected.
Frank,
You said it all in your final sentence "By the way no one cares what Golf, Golf Digest or Golf Week have to say....easy for you to hide behind."
You are obviously correct. You know more than the 200 Golfweek Raters, the 800 Golf Digest Raters and Tom Fazio. I bow down to your superior knowledge. Please post on this DG when your magazine "Frank on Golf" starts publication. I promise to read it weekly to learn how I can be as smart as you. You still did not answer if you played the course or if you know me. You still did not answer why you think you know my opinion of Rustic Canyon. Now I understand. You are above all of us and do not need to be trifled with the questions of mere golf mortals. I will request that Ran immediately make you Doyen to identify your superior knowledge so we all know to read your opinions with the proper respect. I apologize for disagreeing with you. I will try to be smarter next time. Please send me a listing of all of the course you like and dislike so I can change my opinions to match.
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If your staying in the Traverse city area and prefer not to travel to far you should play High Pte. and Lockenheath and know you played the 2 best in the immediate area.
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A question about High Pointe, I haven't been there:
Which hole is shown in the Confidential Guide (Gourmet section)? It looks a beautiful, natural hole.
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Paul -
The photo in TCG is of the thirteenth hole at High Pointe. The photo doesn't show much of the green complex, which falls away to the left and rear of the green.
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Nick F., I have not played Lockenheath but I know two that have. One was a Pro who called the course beautiful but the architecture goofy. And a sub novice that said it was the best course in the area. I'll have to give it a try based on your recommendation. From the layout it appears to be a good walking course (allowed?). Is it a course that you would love to play everyday and not feel like you've been beat up (like "once in a while is great" Arcadia Bluffs)?
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Don,
Being raised in Traverse City for more than 15 years I know plenty about quality golf around the area. I unfortunately do not live there anymore. It is a beautiful area. Second to none.
First of all...I would not recommend playing Highpointe. The only thing it has going for itself is the low green fees and it variety of 9's. It you want to play a course that is both cheap in its design, and green fees...then Highpointe is for you. Good luck holding your shot on the approach (green are rock hard and slow)!!!! The 8th green is the worst green ever. You need an elevator to get to the top tier. Also if you are on the 10th green, bring a helmet because someone might be firing an approach shot at the flag that they can not see. I heard they did redesign it so maybe it is better now. Don't worry Tom, I love Pacifica Dunes. Great Job!There is a reason why the green fees are so low at this course.
Courses that I would recommend: The Bear (GT Resort) very difficult, Treetops (Fazio), Arcadia Bluffs,the Legend and I have heard good things about the Kingsley Club (although I have not played it).
What you really need to do is find someone that is a member at Crystal Downs (good luck).
If you really want to go low then play Elmbrook on TC. You can brag to everone after that round
If all else fails enjoy the Bay of Lake Michigan.
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John L:
Lochenheath is a players course...It is walkable, some holes were a bit tight off the tee last season, but I am sure that that will be cut back a little as it matures.
Having played all the courses in the area for years, there are certainly others within a 1 hr. drive that I would recommend ,but short of a invitation to Kinglsey Club, I would pass on all but High Pte. and Lockenheath .
Worth the trip:
Black Forest,Belvedere,Smith(Treetops),Black Lake
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There is almost no fescue left at High Pointe. It was managed to extinction. The course is almost totally converted to Annual bluegrass now.
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I had a chance to play 36 holes with Joe Hancock yesterday, High Pointe in the AM, and The Kingsley Club in the PM where Dan Lucas joined us.
I came away from High Pointe impressed by the design and depressed by the poor conditioning. Lack of grass was not a problem, there was plenty, (not much fescue), but the 6 inch primary rough and overall wet, soggy,( low 90's with no rain the week I've been here) overly lush turf was a bummer. I thought the course design was really very good and I loved the greens, but unfortunatly they were hard to appreciate when rolling about 6 on the stimp. Whenever I play a course like that I come away scratcing my head wondering if the owners have no idea what a jewel they have or are simply inept. Maybe in this case both. Good golf properties have a theme they carry from start to finish. Whether it's great service or raw golf, the good ones get it right. I have no idea what this property is trying to accomplish, but the empty parking lot during the week of the 4th of July is telling.
The Kingsley club is a different story. Good golf is the goal and they get it right. If you love golf course management spend an afternoon with Dan Lucas. There's a guy who has a passion for what he does and he does it very well. The course has been talked about a lot here and it does not disapoint. It's hard for me to think of a better course I've played, it is very good design. To me, what is even more impressive is the perfect blend of design and maintenence. They get it right, if you love firm and fast, and a course with options, this is the place. I'm not a course rater but I don't understand how this course gets ranked below others I've played. I loved the course and the attitude of pure golf is refreshing.
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Don, how would you compare KC to Rustic Canyon?
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Brad,
Both RC and KC are built on sand and have very good greens complexes. I'm not sure of the connection between Doak, Hanse, and DeVries, but those gents build the type of greens I love. Some might call them over the top from time to time, but I have great respect for the chances they take and the uniqueness of their greens. Both Rc and KC have 18 unique greens and in that way the courses are similar. KC has more bunkers then RC and they are generally more severe. The
site at KC has much more movement then the gently sloping canyon that RC is built on. RC is more forgiving off the tee, but there is plenty of room to hit the ball at KC. I only felt squeezed at the par 5 17th at KC, a short one at just over 500 yds. What both courses have in common is the need, not just the option, but the need to use the ground if your going to get close to the hole. I can't say enough about the blend of design and maintenance at KC, it is done to perfection and
with their small membership they should be able to keep it up. I know that's important at RC too, but time will tell if the course will hold up to the high volume of rounds. KC and RC are two courses serving two different types of golfer, but I sure do hope they are signs of where design and management are headed in the future. For those of you who haven't seen KC, it is worth the price of a trip to Northern Michigan.
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How could you pass up on the bear at grand traverse resort? It is a much truer test of skill than lochenheath with no tricked up greens. And highpointe is always in terrible condition. The back nine is the only reason to go. The bear, designed by nicklaus, is an awesome course. Maybe thats why the hold the michigan open there instead of, well, lochenheath.
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D Kring,
The Michigan Open has been at The Bear for umpteen years running. Regardless of new venues in the area, I would imagine it takes more than just a better golf course to lure away such a large golf event. Apparently you didn't like Lochenheath? Why? I have not played it yet, but after a roung of golf last winter with Mr. Smyers at Southern Dunes, I would suspect that strategy and features were well thougt out. He has a pretty full grasp of the game.
Joe
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:o
I just played the Black Forest and Highpointe back to back and think y'all are missing the pointe... you want manicured conditions... pay $145 at the bear... the greens there are fine, they are difficult if you don't roll it well... Can't get it to the back on HP's #8,... run it up there... Lousy 18th... you nuts!!! Must of bit off too much and put too many in the water eh?
Bear-trap...The Mich Open was at Schuss Mountain for many years, before and after the bear was in bankruptcy ... it couldn't get the play $... beyond the resort suckers. even my wife thinks the Bear is over-rated... and what about Player's Wolverine??
A regional hidden gem is Grandview, just north off M-72 east of Kalksaka... $25 after 3 PMfor all you can play... or go get scalped by the Chief,,, an interesting newer course for those who like forced carries...
Cheers
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Black Forest remains my favorite in the area,
but,its just too damn wet.
All the ground features are compromised as they insist on green and lush. The 2nd hole was always one of my favorites with a blind , ripping left to right 2nd shot cut off the hill into the green.
Couldn't wait to get up there and see how close I got.
Now, sadly, the shot just dies in the mush and divots in front of the green.
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If you are a skilled golfer I would highly recommend going to Grand Traverse Resort and play the bear. It is a wonderful course and you are sure to enjoy your round. You may also want to try lochenheath. Very difficult if you dont hit the ball long and straight. Enjoy
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If you are a skilled golfer I would highly recommend going to Grand Traverse Resort and play the bear. It is a wonderful course and you are sure to enjoy your round. You may also want to try lochenheath. Very difficult if you dont hit the ball long and straight. Enjoy
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The Bear and the words wonderful don't belong on this site!! ;D The Bear is an example of Nicklaus giving a client what he wanted. It's an over the top resort course that because of it's difficulty and high prices had a very difficult time making it. As manufactured as Arcadia Bluffs is, I think that I'll take it ANY day over the Bear....even Rees' Thousand Oaks is more preferred by me, but Pilgrim's Run still takes the crown!!
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The third book I ever read on golf architecture was Brad Klein's Rough Meditations. It is still the most readable book I have ever seen on the subject. In it (And I am paraphrasing because I do not remember the exact quote) Brad said something like "I still go back to the Bear to remind myself of everything that is wrong with golf course design."
The Bear may be a great test of golf, but it is a horrible golf course.
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The Bear is a good place to start a foundation of archtiecture learning. Next go to High Pointe down the road and in spite of the conditioning you will see some pretty interesting stuff, then go to Kingsley Club to see a great modern course, finish at Crystal Downs for the classic perspective and I doubt you would ever venture back to The Bear.
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The Bear and the words wonderful don't belong on this site!! ;D The Bear is an example of Nicklaus giving a client what he wanted. It's an over the top resort course that because of it's difficulty and high prices had a very difficult time making it. As manufactured as Arcadia Bluffs is, I think that I'll take it ANY day over the Bear....even Rees' Thousand Oaks is more preferred by me, but Pilgrim's Run still takes the crown!!
If the the other courses are so great how come they dont hold the michigan open at any of them?
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OK, Tony,
Follow the logic: Therefore, the course that hosts The Michigan Open must be the best golf course.
Any questions?
Sarcastic as ever,
Joe