Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: John Shimp on October 01, 2007, 11:35:24 AM
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Shinnecock Hills in a non-prevailing wind from the north.
I played Saturday morning in 20mph avg with 40mph gust per clubhouse gauge.
Hole 2 - 221 yds uphill into the non-prevailing wind Driver to well guarded green. Normally a 3I or so.
Hole 7 - 189 yd Redan. Very hard to hold the green downwind.
Hole 11 - 158 yd uphill to a small green. Called by L. Trevino the best par 5 in the country. Hole played 40 yds longer into the wind.
Hole 17 - 174 yd Eden hole. A hurting crosswind made the hole play around 195. Back left pin made this the easiest of the 4 as the wind helped work the ball to the hole.
Overall, Shinnecock is masterfully designed for the prevailing wind off the ocean. Things really get turned upside down with wind out of the north. Can't say that the down wind holes were much if any easier though....
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Pine Valley...even if you only count number 5, it makes it the course with the hardest set of par threes...however, the other three are also disasters wiating to grab you.
Number 14 from the new tee, is not much easier than #5 which to me is the hardest par 3 in the world.
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Portrush.
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Royal Dornoch would certainly be a contender in the 175 yards or less category. #2 & #6 are tough targets to hit and VERY tough up&downs if you miss. #10 is shorter and marginally easier. #13 is the largest of the 4 greens, but that does not make it easy.
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Is there a par three in the world that is the number 1 handicap hole at its course? What is the lowest that you know. The 16th at Victoria National is the #10 handicap hole.
Yes, I know that it is not supposed to indicate the hardest hole but the one whose stroke dispersion is greatest between a Banker and C-noter.
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#14 at Rolling Green (now 235 from the back tees) is the 6th hdcp. hole. Even before new tees (201 yds) it's been #6 handicap.
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#16 at CPC is the 6th handicap hole. The other three (3, 7 and 15) are the 17th, 15th and 18th handicap holes, respectively.
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Par 3 short distances preclude handicapping them tough. Crazy... To me hole handicapping ought to focus on the distance of the expected shot into the hole not entire hole length.
On the toughest Par 3 question, what about the effects of wind? Are Pine Valley's tougher than Shinnecock's when counting on significantly more wind at Shinny? And in particular when considering the non-prevailing wind I mentioned? Dornoch and Portrush certainly have a lot of wind. As great as they are, Dornoch's par 3 holes aren't long enough in my view to rate with Shinnecock's in wind.
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16th at Bro Hof Stadium Course (RTJ II) in Stockholm is #5 hcp hole.
(http://www.strokesaver.se/img/klubb/broh/bana1/broh16-18.jpg)
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I don't have a scorecard in front of me, but I believe the 2nd hole at Kingsley is the #4 handicap hole at just 135 yds. from the Blue tees.
After seeing just about everybody seesaw back and forth on that hole, I'm not surprised. It is truly a 2 or 20 hole.
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Come to think of it, the 2nd may be the 6th handicap hole. Anyone have a scorecard? Regardless it is one of the toughest par 3's under 150 yards.
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Winged Foot West seems the obvious one to me, but a good CCFAD choice might be Spanish Bay. That is a breezy corridor on that side of the peninsula; danger lurks when the wind is up, starting with #13, which I feel is the most difficult short par-3 I have every played.
You miss, you die. The target is far smaller than #17 at TPC Florida.
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If we are defining "hard" as the highest total score on them over the course of a certain number of rounds, it would be very difficult to beat Pine Valley...each hole has the potential to draw a 7 out of you in no time flat...
I like the three's at Shinnecock better though, and think #17 is a sleeper as one of the great par threes I have played...
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You can make the argument for Oakmont easily . . . . . get on the wrong side of all but #8 and double bogey looks good.
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Haven't played Oakmont, but your words are interesting in that their longest one is similar to Shinnecock as #2 is probably the easiest to par...or recover to in the event of a miss...
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Kingsley #9 gets this emoticon ... >:(
The recent revisions to Oakland Hills South might lend to an argument that those 3's are as tough as a group as any that one might imagine.
3 - A modest mid-iron shot; but the flag can be tucked behind a front bunker.
9 - Not revised in the latest go-round, but before the 1996 US Open a new tee was added that pushed the yardage to something like 220+, against the ptrevailing wind, to a green that Oakmont might envy.
13 - Depending on the hole location, this shortish Par three with a wildly-sloped three-zone green can be easy (front center) or brutal (back left or back right, tucked to the collar or the falloff contour).
17 - Word is already out, after British Open qualifying at the site following the '07 Buick Open at Warwick Hills, that the new pushed-back tee may be too much even for the tour pros. I don't even know the new yardage. Somebody here will know. Some comments from the Open qualifiers were that it was nearly unplayable; long and uphill with a long iron, hybrid or fairway wood to a heavily-bunkered green that is about 15 paces deep with no helping angle or backstop.
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I don't have a scorecard in front of me, but I believe the 2nd hole at Kingsley is the #4 handicap hole at just 135 yds. from the Blue tees.
After seeing just about everybody seesaw back and forth on that hole, I'm not surprised. It is truly a 2 or 20 hole.
from the blues/140 yds #2 is the 6th handicap hole Jonathan
personally i think 10 might be even more difficult, but it's listed as 10th handicap from 128 yds
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This utterance may get me horsewhipped, but I do not find the par-3's at PV all that difficult. I base my feelings on the size of the greens. For a good iron player, you really have to whiff one to miss the putting surface.
PV, in my view, is not about difficulty, but psychological terror. The fairways are wide and the putting surfaces expansive. Oakmont - and Shinnecock - place a higher premium on perfect shotmaking.
#3 is an enormous Redan. All you need do is block-nudge a five-iron somewhere towards the right side of the green and you'll be dancing. Now, the enormity of the putting surface introduces a 3-jack, but I think we are trying to identify par-3's where a train wreck is almost an inevitability.
#5 only requires a 200 yard shot with a draw. Death to those who fan it to the right side, but there is no real requirement for precision, just a good swing that cheats the ball left.
#10 is a simple hole. Pull out your 8-iron, aim it at the DA and don't try to get cute. Hit it. The green is 3X as large as it looks from the tee.
#14 is the same shot as #3. Downhill to a target that is far larger than it seems. The hole plays shorter than the yardage, so all that is necessary is a decent swing to an expansive landing area.
The problems start when the fairways begin to narrow in your mind. The monster is not real - just an illusion. Disasters are wholly self-inflicted at PV for the better player, because the golf course is not that hard. The margin for error is enormous - only a complete shank spells eternal punishment; negative thoughts begin to sneak into your head.
At Oakmont, with the exception of #8, a little, itty bitty miss results in a game of ping-pong between the bunkers and a putting surface faster than glass with more pitch.
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I'll have to say, with all due respect Mr. Papazian, you are out of your friggin' mind...To rekindle an earlier referrence of yours...not even Hunter Thompson took enough chemicals to think the 3's at PV are "not all that difficult" and they are "just an illusion"...
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This utterance may get me horsewhipped, but I do not find the par-3's at PV all that difficult. I base my feelings on the size of the greens. For a good iron player, you really have to whiff one to miss the putting surface.
PV, in my view, is not about difficulty, but psychological terror. The fairways are wide and the putting surfaces expansive. Oakmont - and Shinnecock - place a higher premium on perfect shotmaking.
#3 is an enormous Redan. All you need do is block-nudge a five-iron somewhere towards the right side of the green and you'll be dancing. Now, the enormity of the putting surface introduces a 3-jack, but I think we are trying to identify par-3's where a train wreck is almost an inevitability.
#5 only requires a 200 yard shot with a draw. Death to those who fan it to the right side, but there is no real requirement for precision, just a good swing that cheats the ball left.
#10 is a simple hole. Pull out your 8-iron, aim it at the DA and don't try to get cute. Hit it. The green is 3X as large as it looks from the tee.
#14 is the same shot as #3. Downhill to a target that is far larger than it seems. The hole plays shorter than the yardage, so all that is necessary is a decent swing to an expansive landing area.
The problems start when the fairways begin to narrow in your mind. The monster is not real - just an illusion. Disasters are wholly self-inflicted at PV for the better player, because the golf course is not that hard. The margin for error is enormous - only a complete shank spells eternal punishment; negative thoughts begin to sneak into your head.
#3 is 195 from the new back tee and is not that difficult until you get to the green. You can certainly have a train wreck there.
#5 calls for more than a 200 yard shot. A 200 yard shot will leave you with a 20-30- yard chip to a green that is SEVERELY sloped back to front. Half the battle is getting to the green and then you have to putt. It is the hardest par 3 I know (and I have played a lot of places).
#10 is short to another difficult green.
#14 is 225yards over water and in front of water. There is no bail out left, not much right, and nearly none short. It played into the wind last week and was scary hard. I can't think of 4 better, more diverse par threes around and hard too.
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#3 does provide a nice sideboard up there to throw the ball into, and assuming you can hit it fine, just tell me how the sq.footage of that side board compares to these little itty bitty targets at Oakmont? Of course there are a couple additives here; miss your sideboard to the right and you ain't gettin' on with the next one, and hit it, but with the pin in the back and you're still making four most often. Forget about the prevailing wind from 2 o'clock and you've got every chance of seeing the left bunker, which fortunately is the one bunker on the course that let's you think about a par...to a front pin of course.
#5 - I'll just quote you, it was just about good enough...
#5 only requires a 200 yard shot with a draw. Death to those who fan it to the right side, but there is no real requirement for precision, just a good swing that cheats the ball left.
Add to that the toughest green on a real long hole I've ever seen...unless #15 counts as a real long hole!
#10 - Three very distinct greens within this one rather large (for an 8 iron) green. All seamlessly poured together but clearly separated by 2.5 - 3 putts. this fact alone increases the challenge exponentially from what you see as "a simple hole" to one which could reach up and grab you by the nose if you forget for just one second where you are...
#14 - Most mundane of the lot, but at 207 to the front as it was on my last playing with a strong wind from the right it was anything but "a walk in the park Kazanski..."
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First off, there are not Mr.'s here . . . . . just Uncle Gibby and an Apple laptop.
However, I really don't think those par-3's at PV are nearly as brutal as Oakmont - again - because of the sheer size of the targets.
Another set of par-3's I want to nominate are at Bandon Dunes.
On #2, that crossways trudge to the tee does not appeal to me, but if you play the boxes on the hillside terrace, #2 is a whole lotta whole lotta.
The real problems begin on #6 - try whistling a 4-iron to that target in a nasty crosswind. Any miss - especially to the right - leaves you hacking the ball out of the brush and dunes. There is no margin for error because the green just sits out there alone, sticking its tongue out at you.
#12 is not that difficult per se, as long as you chicken out to the right of the green. Any miss left - don't forget the wind - finds the pot bunker from Hell. Most of the time, you get to come out sideways - or backwards to deal with a ticklish little pitch over the same abyss of snowman.
#14. Wind again. This is an impossible hole. I simply lack the necessary skill to escape without a double-bogey or worse. The front bunker goes all the way to the center of the earth, right is death, left is over on the other tee because the wind catches it . . . . .
Last time I played there, I was one over standing on the tee and crawled off as shell shocked at Van De Velt.
Naturally, I layed the sod over my sand wedge on #16 and stuck it into another pot bunker, but that is a weepy story of failure and humiliation for another day.
As for the Hunter Thompson line . . . . . at least you remembered it.
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Mr Papazan..
I have to agree with my esteemed competitor JESIII
YOU ARE SMOKING SOME SERIOUS CRACK...we must be playing a different Pine Valley!
A200 yard draw on #5?
what about the next 35 yards to the hole?
Number 14 a large green...are you kidding me...I think we differ very much here.
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Jim,
And the two times I played PV, the yardages were quit a bit shorter and we were not playing the tips. If we are going to use the tips of every hole as the measuring stick, then I will be the first to admit the par-3's at PV got more pussy than I got Johnson.
And #5 at PV, that was a typo, although I just whacked my 3-wood to the left side the last time I was there and hit it to 3 feet. . . . . missed the downhiller though, almost missed it coming back.
And "crack" was never my recreational drug of choice. I went to 154 Grateful Dead Shows and never even saw any blow, let alone crack.
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Sorry...Uncle Gibby....I hope you know I mean the good kind of crack......that which can be found while hunting for your ball after missing the geens on Pine Valley's par 3's ;D
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Seminole when it is UP has to make the list as well...albeit a notch or two below PV...
I have to imagine I could go to Oakmont and play every hole for a bogey and succeed with no sweat at all...that is not the case at PV...even a little bit.
Haven't played Bandon either Gib, you are too well traveled...
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What would someone do with blow at Dead show?
As to tee selection...it doesn't much matter to me which tees we play...is there a substantial difference in the difference between mens and womens sets at PV and Oakmont?
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Jes,
I am also 16 years older than you . . . . . Have kids late and play all the golf you can while you're young.
As for PV, I am a short hitter by any measuring stick and hit:
5-iron, 3-wood, 8-iron and 4-iron in order.
Maybe there are some new back tees, no idea, but those were the clubs I hit last time. Tom Paul was standing right there . . . . .
I must have caught it on a windless day with the tees waaaay up, because I am a short-knocking queer when compared to guys like Shivas.
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... I am a short-knocking queer when compared to guys like Shivas.
Aren't we all...
My fourth just turned 1 and the oldest (twins) are not yet 5...you do the math, she's Irish!
My point about tees and distances is that I would guess it's equitable. Standard men's tees at PV are a certain amount shorter and easier than the tips. I would guess that ratio hold true at Oakmont and everywhere else...but that's just a guess.
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I have thought one of the hardest set of par 3s all under 200 yards is at Brancaster (Royal West Norfolk) even when there is a slight breeze. If you miss the green at all of them its hard to get up and down.
The 4th is only 122 yards to a 21 yard deep green with 30ft drops front and left. The 6th is 182 yards to a raised green with the marshes on the left. The 10th is 147 yards to a tiny green that cannot be missed. The 15th is 186 yards I remember playing it in a practice day hitting a 9 iron and then in the 1st round of a comp hitting a 2 iron.
Club selection has always been a headache on the par 3s on this special course.
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A question for you gents - does the 'cumulative' effect have anything to do with making this judgement?
What I mean is, take for example Oakmont and PV: by the end of a round you've played 14 other holes besides the Par 3s. Do the holes that come before (either right before or earlier in the round) the Par 3s end up making those Par 3s 'harder', even if just psychologically?
or put another way: does the shot-making variety demanded at PV wear you down for the Par 3s? Does the unremitting toughness of Oakmont do the same? More? Less?
Thanks
P
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Peter,
Good observation/question.
I also wonder if this question is different for different skill levels. For instance, the 17th at Sawgrass may be an easy 3 or 4 for me, but it might be almost impossible for my dad. The 9th at Kingsley, while having eaten my lunch on several occasions, is usually a 3 or 4 on my card. But, for golfers who can hit it anywhere and have trouble with short recovery shots may pick it up after they run out of fingers to count on.
So, I think the question would be better clarified, for me, thusly:
For better golfers, which course's par 3's are least likely to yield birdies and most likely to yield bogeys or higher?
Joe
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Peter,
I'd think a steady flow of tough, interesting shots will keep your antenna up and in tune...
Joe,
asked that way, Gib might have a winner in Oakmont (I've not been there) because bogeys would seem to count the same as doubles and triples...
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JES,
For me, these type questions need some sort of qualifiers, because otherwise it just becomes another list. It can be useful to identify certain courses based on playability traits, but only with context. Perhaps my qualifiers and context aren't the best for a broadened discussion, but I had to start somewhere.
Joe
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Joe,
I wasn't saying that was the wrong way to do it, just that it might change my answer...
By the way, I set a qualifier earlier in that "hardest" meant most total strokes over a severl round test...
Either way is fine, and I'm not pissing just typing...who could have apissing match with a guy that says..."then I will be the first to admit the par-3's at PV got more pussy than I got Johnson."?
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The 17th at Oakland Hills moved from 201 yards to 238 yards post Rees re-do. Yes, the top guys certainly howled at that one. There is a new tee for the 9th at 257 yards as well. They didn't seem to cry too much about the rest of the increased yardages, however.
OHCC will be 7445 yards par 70 next year. The monster now has some teeth back in it.
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Of all the course I've played, I give the nod to Pine Valley because they are always hard, no matter what the conditions. I've not played Shinnecock, but when the wind is down Seminole is not nearly (IMO) as difficult.
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I looked at the Unisys Scoring package online for the 2004 US Open at Shinnecock and the 2007 US Open at Oakmont. Interestingly the par 3's played about the same with Shinnecocks greens slightly harder to hit in regulation than oakmonts (oakmonts 8th was the hardest to hit of any hole at either course but at 288yds it was silly). Here are the stats.
Oakmont Shinnecock
score %hit score %hit
#6 3.31 42% #2 3.26 43%
#8 3.45 27% #7 3.41 33%
#13 3.11 66% #11 3.33 50%
#16 3.32 50% #17 3.21 45%
avg 3.298 46.3% 3.303 42.7%
The seventh at Shinny was absurd by the last day. So, i don't know how to factor that. One thing though is that the wind did not blow there in 2004.
Interesting comparison though. #13 at OCC is clearly the easiest hole of the bunch and #8 at OCC the toughest.
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That Jans sounds like a tough beeotch. I find it interesting that in prof majors the par 3s typically play hardest relative to par whereas in handicap golf we don't get too many strokes when we play against a competitor like Old Man Par.
Of the courses I've seen, the five par 3s at Grove Park Inn provide the greatest number of strokes between two golfers one level of ability apart.
For example, a five handi playing against scratch will receive a stroke on two par 3s(!) and a nine playing a zero will get strokes on three par 3s.
Here are the holes and their stroke numbers:
2nd 9
7th 5
9th 3
14th 18
17th 10
The 17th illustrates the nature of the 3s. 190 yards, to reach the back tees you climb past a decorative fountain up a goodly amount of steps,your confusion growing as you mount the hill...because you are walking through somebody's garden and up to their house!
And then...you walk around their house to the tee hard against one side. You know Hogan's comment about the 10th(?) at WF West, "a 3 iron into somebody's bedroom?"
Well, this is a 3 iron from somebody's bedroom.
The shot is past the house on the right and a well-leafed tree on the left. The green is benched into a hill side, not particularly hard to putt, but you cannot miss right.
Guess the raters figured it was equally difficult for the zero and the nine.
(From the up tees, it is a good sight easier at 150 yards.)
And the seventh green has to be seen to be appreciated...
Mark
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I find it interesting that in prof majors the par 3s typically play hardest relative to par whereas in handicap golf we don't get too many strokes when we play against a competitor like Old Man Par.
Par 3's are the toughest for pro's because they have to hit longer approach shots to the greens. Pro's can hit most par 5's in two, sometimes with short irons, and putt for eagle. They often have wedges into par 4's, setting up better birdies chances. They are driving more and more par 4's, again putting for eagle.
They never putt for eagle on par 3's. They rarely hit wedges into them, but must hit longer clubs. That extra length on the approach shots makes them harder to birdie, and almost impossible to eagle.
That's also why par 3's are the equalizer for higher handicappers. Average golfers can't reach par 5's in two, or often in three. They don't drive the greens on par 4's, and don't have wedge left on 470 yard holes. On the longer holes all those extra shots give them trouble, and boost up their scores.
Not so on par 3's. They can reach most of those with their approach shot. So par 3's are, relatively speaking, longer for pro's, but shorter for the average guys.
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CAPE KIDNAPPERS!!!!!
3 is a beast, 6 is one of the hardest holes on the planet, 8 is exacting and hard to keep the ball on the green if its blowing, 11 is downright scary from all the way back, and 13 is one of the toughest short 3s in the game.
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Of the courses I have played more than once, the par 3s at Harbor Town stand out as both fabulous and difficult....especially from the tips.
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Here's the view from the middle tee on GPI 17...
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Grove%20Park%20Inn/L1050207.jpg)
...and from the back tee!
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Grove%20Park%20Inn/L1050230.jpg)
Mark
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Mark Bourgeois,
I believe the Grove Park Inn owns the house and associated fountains and grounds. The day my buddies and I played the course, I looked inside and around the grounds of the house: house was vacant and being renovated. We all noticed that the hole played from someone's yard. I believe the 10th hole does as well.
Chris
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Royal Portrush was mentioned earlier, 6 (Harry Colt's) and 14 (Calamity) are two of the hardest shots you will come across.
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Chris
10 tee? I don't recall that. Re 17, you're lucky NC doesn't have a "shoot the burglar" law!
Mark
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I looked at the Unisys Scoring package online for the 2004 US Open at Shinnecock and the 2007 US Open at Oakmont. Interestingly the par 3's played about the same with Shinnecocks greens slightly harder to hit in regulation than oakmonts (oakmonts 8th was the hardest to hit of any hole at either course but at 288yds it was silly). Here are the stats.
Oakmont Shinnecock
score %hit score %hit
#6 3.31 42% #2 3.26 43%
#8 3.45 27% #7 3.41 33%
#13 3.11 66% #11 3.33 50%
#16 3.32 50% #17 3.21 45%
avg 3.298 46.3% 3.303 42.7%
Good stats. ANGC may have both of them beat, though. Here is how the par 3's played at last year's Masters:
4 3.4167
6 3.1891
12 3.4006
16 3.3045
Average = 3.328.
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Mark,
I meant the 15th tee, not the 10th.
Chris
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I agree that the classic open courses have difficult par 3s, especially in tournament conditions, but I think modern par 3s tend to be more difficult due to the more abundant use of water hazards.
Take Victoria National for example. All of the par 3 holes require target golf to a postage stamp green surrounded by trouble. They are long and difficult under normal playing conditions.
I challenge you not to look beyond USGA tournament conditions of shin-deep rough and blazing fast greens to analyze the hardest set of par 3s. Under normal conditions, the player could hit a poor tee shot and still have a reasonable chance to escape with a par.
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You may be correct in alot of places Bryon, but not at Pine Valley. I don't care what the conditions are, if you hit a poor tee shot you are hoping to make a bogey...
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For some golfers the set of threes at Golden Horseshoe (RTJ) in Va. are intimidating with three forced carries over water.
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JES, unfortunately for me...I am can not argue against PV due to a lack of experience there. I was comparing my experience with Winged Foot, Baltusrol, and Bethpage. Each of these open courses have difficult par 3s during the competition but are reasonable during normal play.
I am suggesting that some of the modern courses should be considered when analyzing the "hardest set" by the possible score a golfer can make.
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Bryon,
I hope you did not read my post as dismissive, I do not disagree that modern courses should be in the mix (just none that I have played).
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one philly course that i thought has a very difficult set of par 3's is JC Melrose. probably not the hardest in the world, but for a course that hangs below most peoples radar it has some tricky greens with a couple of 3's over 200 and uphill. their website says the course is a Mackensie/P. maxwell design. anybody have any pictures??
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I had a friend who got addicted to cocaine (blow, for those keeping score at home) He was a Dead head and attended hundreds of shows. He died about 10 years ago, at age 37.
#3 at Pasatiempo might be the 1 or 2 handicap hole. That's a hard par 3.
The hardest set I have played is Oakmont.
Honorable mention to Sebonack's par threes. Though not terribly long, they have small targets.
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In no particular order, the following have a collection of very difficult par 3s for the most part regardless of pin position:
Pine Valley
Merion East
Rolling Green
Kittansett
Shinnecock Hills
Oakmont
Philadelphia Country
Lehigh
Indian Creek
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JES II,
You're all BOZO's and HOMER'S
PV's par three's are on Steroids.
# 3 and # 14 have been lengthened considerably and don't come close to resembling the original versions.
Call it the "Augusta Syndrome".
What's been lost in the lengthening of the par 3's at PV is the wonderful variety that once existed.
Golf courses have lost their architectural balance and unique individual hole identity in the effort to present a difficult challenge for the better player.
Par 3's are being lengthened to the point that they're all becoming long iron or fairway wood holes.
BORING and TEDIOUS
If you were to examine par 3's in the context of their original or early form as compared to today's form, Shackamaxon would stand out as having a difficult set.
With respect to modern courses, Sebonack's set is difficult.
From an "architectural perspective, The BETTER question would be:
"What set of par 3's, with great balance/variety would be considered amongst the hardest ?"
As to playing in a 40 mph non-prevailing wind and using those conditions as the benchmark, it's a rare course that is exposed to winds of that nature and velocity, so that would seem to be grounds for disqualification.
# 17 at Sand Hills from the top might be the hardest par 3 in the world under those condtions. SH has a pretty good set too. And to think, I used to use that term to describe one of my favorite features elsewhere.
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You may be correct in alot of places Bryon, but not at Pine Valley. I don't care what the conditions are, if you hit a poor tee shot you are hoping to make a bogey...
I wish I had known this.
It is very demoralising when, on that special day you end up taking a big score on the 3rd hole (shortish par 3 from the member tees), especially after a second hole disaster as well. And then, nearly killing my caddy on the 4th hole when he went forward spotting balls in the left trees! He found the ball (those guys are good).
I think I parred the 14th, 3-putted #5 for a (happy) bogey and found #10 to be demoralising as well. Demoralised, but happy.
James B
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NSW GC in any sort of breeze off the plates...I believe 3 of them are all rated below Index 9 but 11 may slip out a bit.
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Patrick -
I found PV's par 3s to be fairly varied. I mean I hit 7 iron to #3, hybrid to #5, 9 iron to #10, and 4 iron to #14 all from the back tees. Granted I hit shorteer clubs a few years ago to #s 3 and 14, but they were still different.
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Different people find different things difficult, so its hard to judge.
Newcastle GC par 3s are all quite hard.
They measure
3rd 240y
7th 162y
12th 191y
16th 233y
It is generally windy & the greens are not overly large & well bunkered. In fact, the shortest of those, the 7th, can be the most difficult as the wind blows the ball around from a tee on the highest part of the course.