Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Forrest Richardson on November 17, 2006, 06:54:17 PM

Title: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Forrest Richardson on November 17, 2006, 06:54:17 PM
Have just finished reading Anthony's book, To the Nines.

Recommend it as a short read, and refreshing adventure. Especially his quest for Ocean Links and anything left about the property.

As we are in the midst of a 9-hole course design, I was anxious to get the perspective of many of the great East coast layouts that I have never been to visit. Anthony does a great job describing and adding a bit of wit and commentary on the whole idea of 9-hole courses.

His descriptions of Gleneagles in San Francisco is spot on.
Title: Re:To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Forrest Richardson on November 21, 2006, 06:18:09 PM
I meant to add that an excellent undertaking for one of our East Coast GCA-ers would be to create a better plan of Ocean Links. While the version in the book is nice...it seems that Anthony might be able to direct a much better rendition at this juncture.
Title: Re:To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Anthony Pioppi on November 21, 2006, 06:32:01 PM
Forrest,

Thank you for your kinds words concerning my book and I am very excited to hear you are designing a 9-holer.

Tim Gerrish, an associate for Cornish and Mungeam, made the Ocean Links drawing after viewing the one aerial and walking the property with me. Because the photo is taken at an angle the perspective is off and most of the golf course is long lost.

Anthony
Title: Re:To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Forrest Richardson on November 21, 2006, 06:54:32 PM
Maybe Tim can expand on his first attempt...? I read the chapter(s) as though you had uncovered more information since Tim's drawing.
Title: Re:To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Bill_McBride on November 21, 2006, 07:43:21 PM
Forrest, are you contemplating two sets of tees so that the holes play differently each nine if you play two loops?  

i.e. different angles, distances, hazard placement, anything so that the second nine is different from the first.

The best example I ever saw of this was the then-9 holer at Mare Island Naval Shipyard near Vallejo, California.  One even played as a short par 4 the first time and a long par 3 the second.  Fun stuff.
Title: Re:To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Forrest Richardson on November 22, 2006, 10:31:21 AM
We may well do that, Bill. The most essential quality will be great golf, a pub and a very large fitness center. The development is in the heart of metroploitan Phoenix. Beyond that I cannot comment for now. The par will likely be 33 or 34 with 3s ranging from 90 yards to 235.

Title: Re:To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Bill_McBride on November 22, 2006, 11:24:55 AM
Please insure that the pub is well stocked with Bellhaven's Best.  Or at least a lightly chilled Guiness.

The par 3 range is excellent, reminds me of Glenbrook Golf Course at Lake Tahoe where the 3rd is 85 yards over a vast bunker, and the 4th is 225 yards slightly uphill to a crowned green.  That is another terrific 9 hole course that I had forgotten about.  The 2nd is a short par 5 that requires either a five iron layup off the tee (probably 8 iron today) or a duck hook driver.  The entire course was chain sawed out of a Ponderosa forest.
Title: Re:To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Anthony Pioppi on November 22, 2006, 11:52:14 AM
I second Bill's request for a draft line dedicated to Best.

Forrest, this sounds like a very interesting project please keep my posted. Maybe I can convince a magazine that this is worth a story.

Anthony
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Anthony Gholz on December 04, 2017, 03:03:18 PM
Thought I'd bump this rather than start a new topic as I know I'm behind on my reading.  I too have finally read Anthony Pioppi's book To The Nines and want to add my belated praise of the book.  I especially liked the Ocean Links two chapters as noted above and the Fenwick chapter including the Hepburn info.  It was great fun for bedtime reading the last couple weeks using google maps and aerial photography to follow along with the descriptions.


As the Holidays are upon us I suggest the book as a good add to any golfer's stocking.



Thanks to Anthony
from Anthony
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Forrest Richardson on December 04, 2017, 03:55:58 PM
Gosh 2006!  Flashback. Anthony's book gets recommended and cited whenever I get 9-hole pushback! My 9-hole project never materialized here in Phoenix, but the lane is still there!
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Adam Lawrence on December 04, 2017, 04:14:14 PM
Timely. Tony's latest book The Finest Nines: The Best Nine Hole Golf Courses in North America will publish shortly.
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Anthony Gholz on December 05, 2017, 10:08:48 AM
Additionally:


The Northwood comments in the book, 11 years ago, indicated bunkering that doesn't look like it's there today.  Also a big difference in the green color of Northwoods today vs Gleneagles, in the same state under different water requirements.  Difficult to see any of the bunkering at Gleneagles in the aerials.


Adam: great news regarding the new book.  I hope the illustrations are improved from the first book as that was the only thing I was not happy with.  A minor problem, perhaps more to do with my eyesight than the book.
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Anthony Pioppi on December 07, 2017, 01:20:35 PM
Anthony: I'm glad you enjoyed To the Nines. I appreciate the plug.


Thank you for the mention of the new book, Adam. The Finest Nines, North America's Best-Nine Hole Golf Courses, is entirely separate from To the Nines. The new one ranks from 1 to 25 the best nines on the continent... I'll give part of it away, none are in Mexico.


Ironically, I'm writing this post while sitting in the Newport, R.I public library and if all goes as planned will rummage around a bit on the Ocean Links site tomorrow. Have not been out there in a few years. Leaves are off the underbrush so maybe I can find the Well of Fame again if the area is not too swampy.


The Finest Nines is available for preorder online and is scheduled for a Feb. 6 release by Skyhorse Publishing. If you would like a signed copy, feel free to contact me. AnthonyPioppi@gmail.com. If you don't want a signed copy, feel free to contact me, as well.


Forrest, anything I can do to help the 9-hole cause, please let me know and thank you for continuing to fly the flag!


http://www.booksamillion.com/p/Finest-Nines/Anthony-Pioppi/9781510722712


Best,


Anthony



Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Anthony Pioppi on December 09, 2017, 02:53:56 PM
This is me standing atop what is left of Hill to Carry on the former seventh hole at Ocean Links, 12-8.

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w243/ARAYNORFAN/20171208_112301.jpg) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/ARAYNORFAN/media/20171208_112301.jpg.html)


So I can't see the image above. Says I need to update 3rd party hosting on Photobucket. Can anyone see the photo?


T

Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Ken Fry on December 09, 2017, 03:14:49 PM
Nope
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Jon Wiggett on December 09, 2017, 04:31:17 PM

Anthony,


I think what they mean by update is 'pay us something' ;)


Jon
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Anthony Pioppi on December 10, 2017, 11:29:51 AM
Ohhhhh, pay us something....
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Jon Wiggett on December 10, 2017, 12:31:56 PM
There are other photo hosting sites who don't charge so maybe a move.
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Anthony Pioppi on December 10, 2017, 01:34:50 PM
Cool, Jon. Suggestions?


AP
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Ben Malach on December 10, 2017, 01:44:02 PM
Anthony-


As to free hosting sites I have had success with Imgur, Google Photos and Flickr. I found that Imgur was the simplest platform to upload and share with. Google photos is where I do a lot of my online management of photos. This is also the reason, i have never felt comfortable sharing links from here. Flicker is my least used account as I find little reason engage with the community there. The upload function is stable and the site looks classic.     
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Anthony Pioppi on December 10, 2017, 03:35:51 PM
Ben:


Thanks much for taking the time to answer. I'll check it out.


AP
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Bret Lawrence on December 10, 2017, 03:39:16 PM
Here is Anthony's picture from what is left of the Hill to Carry on the old Ocean Links
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/24AAD5A3-C8AD-4727-8935-AB7ECD505D07_zpscmto5bpt.jpg)


I still use the bucket.  The best way to make a third person picture into a first person picture is to take a screenshot with your phone or tablet.  This changes the file extension on the photo and allows you to post it.


Bret
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Anthony Pioppi on December 10, 2017, 03:54:32 PM
Thanks for posting. Taken this past Friday morning. Amazing that it's still left considering the military bulldozed away virtually every other feature on the site when they took over the property in about 1941.


A

Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Mike Sweeney on February 01, 2018, 05:40:45 AM
(https://prodimage.images-bn.com/pimages/9781510722712_p0_v3_s600x595.jpg)


So I finished Anthony's newest 9 hole book on the train home last night, and it really is a fun book. A nice mixture of courses played (Hotchkiss, Hooper, Winter Park,and Edgartown), courses I want to play (Whitinsville, Birchwood, and Quoque), and courses I probably won't play but have a fondness for the spirit which they present (Aetna Springs and Sweetens).


Zac Blair is now in the mix and I have a better understanding of him via his Dad's 9 hole course and why he is so passionate for The Buck Club.


Tony also adds in some local spots to visit and/or have a beer near each course.


Well done, and just a fun book to read:


https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-finest-nines-anthony-pioppi/1125675056?ean=9781510722712&st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_New+Core+Shopping+Books_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP164974&gclid=CjwKCAiAksvTBRBFEiwADSBZfIoXx_bv_tLp6ZbIgdNQ3oDb0s0Mah5cfZucKeZbzSRPZDTV72FUUxoCxncQAvD_BwE#/ (https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-finest-nines-anthony-pioppi/1125675056?ean=9781510722712&st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_New+Core+Shopping+Books_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP164974&gclid=CjwKCAiAksvTBRBFEiwADSBZfIoXx_bv_tLp6ZbIgdNQ3oDb0s0Mah5cfZucKeZbzSRPZDTV72FUUxoCxncQAvD_BwE#/)
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Terry Lavin on February 01, 2018, 09:27:56 PM
Im halfway through and can enthusiastically endorse purchase by this panel and your like-minded friends. Great research, writing and photography.
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: John Foley on February 02, 2018, 10:40:58 AM
and courses I probably won't play but have a fondness for the spirit which they present (Aetna Springs and Sweetens).

Mike - you need to go to Sweetens . There is a lot written about the experience and sometimes it seems a bit over-hyped but it's not. As a fan of architecture and discovering new courses it's right up there with playing many of the greats for the first time. Get it on a fall day day when the sun is warm, the turf is firm & fast you'll be sold.
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Anthony Pioppi on February 02, 2018, 06:42:21 PM
Thanks for the kind words, Mike and Terry. John, I could not agree more. Sweetens is not overhyped.


Anthony



Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Peter Flory on October 18, 2018, 02:30:06 AM
Here is Anthony's picture from what is left of the Hill to Carry on the old Ocean Links
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/24AAD5A3-C8AD-4727-8935-AB7ECD505D07_zpscmto5bpt.jpg)


I still use the bucket.  The best way to make a third person picture into a first person picture is to take a screenshot with your phone or tablet.  This changes the file extension on the photo and allows you to post it.


Bret


After seeing that original Cader hole in the other thread today with the ridiculously steep hill to carry and the blind cross bunker over it, the 7th at Ocean Links came to mind.  I know they reference the 11th at St Andrews as the inspiration, but the Cader hole seems like a closer match.  I was curious how much of the hill was still there at Ocean Links after reading the book and this thread.  I didn't know that the military bulldozed it, but that makes sense because it was supposedly a mini mountain and that is clearly gone. 


But here is how it looks on google earth when you magnify the elevations by 3x.  It was neutered, but still distinctly there.  It looks like it is still about 10 feet higher than the ground around it.  I drew a line along the path of the hole that is 258 yards long for perspective. 


(http://i68.tinypic.com/1607f5z.jpg)
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Rich Goodale on October 18, 2018, 08:02:43 AM
A couple of days ago I drove past the two 9-holers on which I first played (Candlewood and Cape Ann) in Ipswich, MA on summer holidays.  Any love for these in the book, or from other golfers on this website?


Rich
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Jeff Churchill on October 18, 2018, 01:15:53 PM
Cape Ann is a nice little Wogan design with a million dollar view of the ocean from the fourth tee.
From 253 yards the 7th hole par 3 is as big a test in the wind as you could ever want.
The course is short but the wind is always a factor
They are working on drainage but still soupy when wet.
Great fried clams in the bar

Candlewood is a peat bog with the tiniest greens on the planet.
We used to play emergency nines there with a few beers and bet on who could stop a ball on those concrete tabletops.
A favorite of kids and beginners it served a purpose.
The former owner Dave Whipple (RIP) was a great guy and promoted junior play.
His heirs want to plow it under for condos but the ground won't perc so they can't build on it.
Not sure what will happen long term.
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Rich Goodale on October 18, 2018, 02:25:06 PM
Great to hear your thoughts Jeff


My family had a summer home at Conomo Point, which led me to those two places when I was into my early teens.  Candlewood was a great place to learn to play, and had a few very good golf holes once you got away from the bogland.  Cape Ann was a few higher numbers on the Doak scale, and had the advantage of having John Updike as a player there (before he got into Myopia.....).


All the best


Rich
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Brad Tufts on October 18, 2018, 03:06:05 PM

Both CA and CW have had their fans over the years.  I have never played CW (driven by it maybe 100+ times in life), but I did take a spin around CA once.  I remember they had a guy on the first tee that literally heckled each player as they teed up...somebody must have liked it as nobody kicked him out or anything.  I remember CA having some good elevation change too, which was surprising considering much of its surroundings are wide tidal flats.  I'm sure there are times where the greenheads will carry you away too, greenhead bites are nasty...they are bigger, faster and bite harder than horseflies.


Most interesting to me is that Wayne Stiles built 9-holes in the area (very near Candlewood, on the other side of 133) in the late 20s/early 30s with a fantastic name, Labor-in-Vain GC!  It was 2700y par 35 and was located on what is pretty much an island in the tidal flats.  It closed a few decades later just post-WW2, but the name lives on as the road that goes by the 1700s farm house that once was the clubhouse .

In the late 90s, a Myopia member owned the land where the course once was, and Myopia sent a crew over with mowers to get the place into some sort of playing shape.  A member group ended up printing scorecards and embroidering a few Labor-in-Vain polos, and played over a resurrected course for a couple weeks before letting it go back to unmaintained.  For those who are a fan of the NLE courses, this sounds amazing!
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Rich Goodale on October 18, 2018, 08:47:11 PM
Great post, Brad!



Rich
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: John Emerson on December 05, 2018, 11:20:39 PM
Im trying to upload an clip about ocean links I found in The Courier Journal(1926)...not working out like I hoped
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: John Emerson on December 05, 2018, 11:43:25 PM
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/blob:http://www.golfclubatlas.com/27f1909a-bf26-4f3e-acd2-7f3e033e3d3a)
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: John Emerson on December 05, 2018, 11:43:58 PM
Does anyone see a picture?
Title: Re: To The Nines Anthony Pioppi
Post by: Pete_Pittock on December 06, 2018, 01:01:12 AM
no