Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Doug Ralston on July 17, 2006, 10:00:53 PM
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Michigan has become a major goal for us, and I have noted that quite a few here have experience up there. So give me some feedback of some courses.
Forest Dunes, Black Lake, and Timberstone.
And has anyone here played Dunmaglas?
Any insights will be interesting to me.
Doug
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Doug,
If you're coming up 131 from Cinci and don't stop by to visit, you will truly be missing out.
Other than that we have so many courses here in Michigan that you almost need to narrow down your region. We have that many good ones.
Cheers!
JT
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Timberstone is decent, basically a well-conditioned resort course on some dramatic terrain. It's very much "put together," i.e. they line the cart paths with rocks, position giant boulders here and there for aesthetics, have everything perfectly manicured, etc. It's a show.
There are better tracks, in my opinion, but you'll enjoy your time there. It's very well-run and it certainly won't be a downer.
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Doug...this is a thread from when I asked somewhat the same question you did. The responses will give you some good choices. Jim Thompson's Angels Crossing is further south than anything listed and is well worth playing. There's a ton of great public golf in Michigan, in two trips so far I've barely gotten a start on it.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=20390
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Yes, AC is one we have looked at. We have definitely decided on Shepard's Hollow and Eagle Eye in the south.
But I am still hoping for insight on Forest Dunes and Black Lake [I know Reese Jones is not popular for some revamps, but I have heard great things about this course].
Doug
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Doug, here's my article on Forest Dunes. Nice interesting back nine, some good holes on the front.
http://jayflemma.blogspot.com/2005/10/forest-dunes-gc-more-great-golf-in.html
Also don't forget Arcadia Bluffs...excellent design, greens and natural setting on lake michigan.
Of course, it is also quite close to Crystal Downs, which is rightfully legendary.
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Forest Dunes is cool.. Worth a look.. Wish there were more dunes-esque holes like 17 (i think).
in the middle of nowhere though.
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Doug
If you have not played Greywalls and are going to travel to play Timberstone, Marquette is on the way and I would make sure to play it over Timberstone or at least with it.
You had mentioned on a prior thread that you like "vertical" or "mountain" like golf courses, if that is the case you would like True North and Greywalls.
Chris
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Jay;
We did not 'forget' Arcadia Bluffs; but money issues make me try to keep greens fees under $100. Forest Dunes can sometimes be caught under $100; I don't think Arcadia Bluff ever can.
http://www.michigangolfmagazine.com/features/Top50.html
Nice listing of top publics in Michigan in the magazine's humble opinions. Gotta try some of those, for certain. Being poor and loving great courses is difficult.....
Doug
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...And has anyone here played Dunmaglas?...
Doug
One of the worst 5 courses in the state of Michigan. It is puke.
I know my opinion of Art Hills will colour this response but I would urge you to play the Orchards ahead of Shepards Hollow. The US Public Links was there last year and it is a terrific test of golf and one of Bobby Jr's best.
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I would recommend the following, purely based on personal opinion.
Angels Crossing is definitely worth your while and is surely one of the better "deals" around.
Eagle Eye is right here in my backyard. If you play after 3, the fee is only $65. I truly love this course, I have played probably 15-20 times and still get pumped when I know I'm playing.
Shepards Hollow is a great choice. I'm not sure how anyone can bash Art Hills on this one. I would definitely play this one over the Orchards. I liked the Orchards ( I played with a 103 degree fever and later found out I had pneumonia) but Shepards Hollow is fabulous.
Forest Dunes I think is another winner. I have known the head pro up there for quite some time. It is probably in my top 5 favorite in Michigan. Spectacular practice area, and phenomenal greens, the fastest purest greens I have had the pleasure of putting anywhere. I also think there are quite a few good holes, and some really great ones.
Arcadia Bluffs is a must see. I know cost is always an issue, thats why I have only been up there once in the last three years. However I think you can play for cheap after six o'clock and depending on when you will be there and how busy the course is at that time (probably not very busy at all) if you play quickly I think you should be able to play before dark. Its $100 after 4 and $50 after 6:30. Do yourself a favor and play here, It is really a marvel.
Greywalls is another must see. IMHO opinion it is all of Arcadia. Imagine playing golf in one of the Lord of the Rings movies, that is what you feel like. It is so hard to describe, even with pictures. DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME AT TIMBERSTONE (BTW I haven't played it) , IF YOU ARE GOING TO DRIVE TO THE U.P. PLAY GREYWALLS. I have never looked forward to any 8 hour car ride, but I would drive to Florida in a heatbeat to play Greywalls.
I have never seen Black Lake, although I've been meaning to get up there. If you do play, let me know what you think. If you need any other advice I'd be happy to give you my opinions and or other suggestions. The intinierary you already have will be good, add Angels Crossings, Arcadia, and Greywalls and it will surely be one of the great golfing experiences of your life. P.S. if you have access to private courses Crystal Downs and The Kingsly Club are both awesome, Crystal Downs obviously is hands downs one of the premiere courses in the country. Let me know if you need a Fourth for Eagle Eye, its literally five minutes away. Also dining / partying / where to stay options in the area. Good Luck, D.P.N
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Doug:
High Pointe is in the best shape it's been for some time, and it's not too expensive. Some people think it's horribly overrated, but I'm here to tell you it is still some of my better work, the 18th hole notwithstanding. You might even find me out there.
I played Dunmaglas just after it opened, but I haven't spoken to anyone who's been there in at least five years. It's a very pretty course, and very demanding, too -- some narrow target areas. [Mr. Wigler must have shot well above his handicap!] Wouldn't make my top five in the area, but if you're a low handicapper you might enjoy the challenge.
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Tom,
Actually I am a 6-handicap and shot in the high 70's when I played it. It was a 16-guy golf trip and the most positive comment about Dumaglass amongst the 16 was that "A blind guy would probably have fun since he would not notice that a shot hit to the center of the fairway ended up out of bounds." The only other course we have all played that was as universally disliked was the Weiskopf course at Reflections Bay in Vegas.
There is a difference between quirky and stupid. Dumaglass falls soundly into the later. With all of the great golf in Northern Michigan, Dumaglass would not make the top 40 and would be a tragic waste for someone with only a few courses to play.
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Yeah, shame arcadia costs so much, it is special.
High Pointe is a really interesting course at a terrific price and is right on the "main line" of the Traverse City courses. Try that one.
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I've played Black Lake three times, and enjoyed it very much. As noted upthread, it is a Rees Jones course, but it has a very classic, understated feel to it. There's a notable absence of mounding and perfectly circular bunkers -- commonly associated with his work.
I've also played Dunmaglas twice. I would lean more towards Tom's appraisal than David's. Not sure when David last played, but about 5-6 years ago they did go through and "soften" the course somewhat. That said, most of the guys I played with disliked the course.
If you do go to Black Lake or Forest Dunes, you might consider adding Elk Ridge in Atlanta (http://www.elkridgegolf.com/) to your itinerary. A very handsome, deep-in-the-Michigan-woods layout. As you go a bit further north, I can also recommend Hidden River Golf & Casting Club (http://www.hiddenriver.com/view.asp?id=392&page=10440) in Brutus.
But try Arcadia if you can. It's worth the extra few bucks.
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I'm heading up to Michigan next week but, with the family in tow, the only could I'll be playing is Battle Creek Country Club five minutes from my childhood home's front door... 8)
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I played Arcadia this morning -- Chamber of Commerce Day. I've probably played it 20 times and still am a big fan as it makes you hit some of the most imaginitive shots I've ever been presented with, just as an example on 18 I hit a lob 25 feet over the pin and ended about 3 feet short; some of it may be over the top but it sure is fun.
Anybody thinking about it should go, the greens are in the best shape of any course I've ever played. I think this global warming thing is going to be good for NM. Actually the fairways were a bit wet due to a big storm last night but the greens were still F&F.
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I've played Black Lake and Forest Dunes. Both are excellent conditioned courses.
I'd like Black Lake more if Jones were to go back and erase some of the offensive bunker work he created. The property didn't need to be disturbed by his round and curving style. Too much for me.
Forest Dunes is a better design though I wouldn't rush back up to play it again. I'm all for courses presenting different looks; I'm not sure why I wasn't wowed by this course, it seemed disjointed.
I didn't like Arcadia, it made me dizzy. Too much goofy and out of place mounding and a routing more confusing than downtown Ann Arbor.
I can't believe nobody has mentioned Black Forest. I would skip any of the public courses listed here for a round there. This thread proves once again that is often overlooked.
I'd also hop over to Treetops, the Smith Signature is worth seeing, and the Fazio is one of his more interesting efforts.
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Boyne is still one of my favorite plaace to go and play. Petosky is a great place and the big lake is always great. The Highlands is a wonderful place to stay.
One course that I think is a sleeper and one of Arthur Hills better courses is The Thoroughbred. It is about 30 miles north of Muskegon and 30 miles south of Luddington. It isn't walkable but it is fun.
Treetops is also a place I could go every year and not tire of it. The courses are good and varied.
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I actually forgot to mention High Pointe. I played 36 holes there over the recent holiday and really enjoyed the course. Talk about two contrasting nines. There were some truly phenomenal holes out there and the greens are AWESOME. It was very difficult to get an approach shot close to the hole, and even after playing it the first time I was having difficulty ( my game was not in top form though). The price is absolutely right especially if your for a couple of nice "budget" courses. I think it was like $45 dollars sunday morn and then something rediculous like a fifteen dollar replay. Definitely worth seeing. The greens are very severe (in a good way) and I wish they would have been rolling a little faster.
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After living in Michigan for 22 years, and playing Thoroughbred 6-8 times, I think that I'd give up golf before I'd go back and play that Hill's design.....
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
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Anthony, fascinating comment on Thoroughbred. I rather liked it. Why did you play it so much if you didn't like it?
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Tommy,
I'll go into detail later, but I played there cause my family vacationed near there, was invited by a former superintendent to play or had a request from a friend to get up there and play...just not my cup of tea....
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI,SC
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Thanks folks;
Lots of great info. Definitely uprating Greywalls and Pilgrim's Run. Already certain of Eagle Eye, Shepard's Hollow, Tulleymore, Timberstone, Black Lake, and hopefully Forest Dunes. Downrating Dunmaglas.
My friend who is [believe it or not] Art Hill's #1 fan, has recommended Red Hawk over at E Tawas. Anyone here not so anti-Hills as to have an objective veiw of that one?
Doug
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Doug,
If you're in the Gaylord area and don't check out Black Forest you'll be really missing out.
If you're on the sunshine coast and go to Red Hawk without checking out the Gailes you need help.
Talk about covering some ground if you're getting to play Pilgrim's Run (very good choice), then touring Northern Michigan and finally up to the U.P. (really Wisconsin). wow.
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Shooter: When was the last time you played The Gailes? I was there earlier this year and was very dissappointed in the shape of course. Many of those great sod faced bunkers have collapsed into the sand. It was really an eye sore. Great course, but boy I was upset to see it in such bad shape? Curious to hear your thoughts.
D.P.N
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8)
I wouldn't downgrade Dunmaglas so readily if you like shotmaking versus power golfing... it also has perhaps the best berry picking besides great vistas...
Black Forest is a must though...
Be careful of timing getting from one place to another..
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What is the word on Walloon, I understand that it has one nine that is rather old and while the other is Matthews. Any idea on who designed the original nine? Who was designing courses in Michigan in 1904?
Also, can anyone say if Mackinaw Island's Wawashkamo was originally not a full 9 hole? Does anyone have any pictures of it?
How about Belvedere, its a Watson and the course looked interesting from the 1938 aerial that I saw of it. Any restoration to be done there?
Tully
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Shooter;
Actually we will NEVER play all those courses in one trip. We are looking at 3 or 4 trips of 3 or 4 days each. I find that after that much golf, my appreciation and my arthritic hands both tap out.
Thanks again for all the input. I do listen.
Doug
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I agree with above, that there is so much golf in Michigan, one would have to break it up into regional exploration - one area at a time. When you get to the Kalamazoo region, I can't say enough about how much fun and interesting golf you will find at Angel's Crossing (about 10 miles S of KZoo). It is first rate design that has elements and influence from several of the traditional classic GCA masters. It has been my most enjoyable new find in a
several years.
I also wouldn't go back to that lower MI area without exploring "the Mines" by DeVries, under the superintendency of Joe Hancock. I missed it last time, and have only seen pictures which looked good. But now having met Joe.... well, it has got to be fun... ;) ;D
Arcadia Bluffs, when you get to that northern coast region of Sleeping Bear dunes Traverse City area, was also highly enjoyable for me. I'd certainly try it again.
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Sean,
Definitely play Wawa and belvedere.Both are great experiences.
Yancey
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If I were working my way northward I would:
1) Start at ANGEL'S CROSSING near Kalamazoo. Solid course with some of the best overall design in Michigan. Go to 2.
2) Take the hour trip northward to EAGLE EYE in East Lansing. Hit up PT O'Malley's or The Riv for the evening (good local MSU bars). Go to 3 or 4 or directly to 6.
3) If you're feeling adventurous make the hour-and-a-half trip east to play SHEPARD'S HOLLOW. A must play, which I wouldn't know from my friend Dave Neveux. Go to 6.
4) Play PILGRIM'S RUN which is an hour northeast of East Lansing. Go to 5 or 6.
5) Play THOROUGHBRED which is an hour northeast of Pilgrim's Run. Take away the 2nd hole and it's a top 10 play in Michigan Go to 6.
6) Make 1 1/2 hour trip to TULLYMORE just west of Mt. Pleasant. Go to 7.
7) Make the hour trip north and play FOREST DUNES in Roscommon. Probably the best shape of any course I've played this year. Greens are in outstanding shape. Go to 8.
8) Take the 1 1/2 hour trip west to ARCADIA BLUFFS...a must play...I've said it before, would hold its own if it were in Bandon. Go to 9.
9) Either BAY HARBOR or BELVEDERE. Both are about 2 hours northeast of Arcadia Bluffs. Bay Harbor is obviously a little heavy on the wallet at $150 or so. Belvedere is a solid course and I think is in the $40 range. Go to 10 or 11.
10) A quick stop an hour our of your way to play LES CHENEUX CLUB which is an hour east of the bridge right on Lake Huron. Oldest course in Michigan. Pretty simple, but worth the quick 9 hole play.
11) GREYWALLS....play it twice!
-Brian...If you stop in to play Eagle Eye....give me or Dave Neveux a ring. Most underated course in Michigan.
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Well, Brian's comments made me want to respond a little more...
Thoroughbred used to be a Top 10 course in Michigan. This was before Lost Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs, Tullymore, Forest Dunes, Bay Harbor, Wuskowhan, Black Lake....Thoroughbred cannot compete with any of the above.
The property that the course is on is very good. #2 is the worst hole, maybe that Art Hills have ever tried to do. There needs to be about 100,000 cubic feet of soil removed from the fairway. #12 is a 90 degree, dogleg right with such a small landing area, that if you don't hit it, you cannot see the green because you're blocked out by trees, plus you have to hit about a 4 iron off the tee.. #3, #9 and #11, (All par 3's ) are almost identicle. I think that #18 leaves people with a good taste in there mouths, therefore some think that it's better than others. The conditioning has been very poor in years ast-VERY WET! even in the dry of a Michigan summer-Really good food from the resturant, though!
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
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Anthony, Wuskowhan is wonderful. If I lived there I could play it everyday. It is a super club. Lost Dunes is another great course and club and Tullymore is splendid. Bay Harbor is a little disapointing given the land. I haven't played Arcadia Bluffs but I really think it is overrated. It certainly is beautiful and has some excellent holes, especially on the back nine but I thought the front nine was just aaverage.
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"I haven't played Arcadia Bluffs but I really think it is overrated. "
Tommy,
Your comments don't hold much weight if you haven't played the golf course......
Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI,SC
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Tommy,
I played Arcadia last year, and Wuskowhan this year, and my thoughts would be reversed from yours. I enjoyed Arcadia, but thought that Wuskowhan did not live up to its rating (at least in GD). While the conditioning is immaculate the the course is beautiful, I felt like I played the same hole over and over. The first three par threes were 190, 195, and 196 all over some kind of swamp or bunkers or other nasty place. The other two were slightly shorter, with the last one #15 being my favorite because it was different. The par fours were the same story, #2, 3, 4, 14, and 16 were all about 420 with some kind of marsh to hit over, and there were a couple others that weren't that different either. The par fives all seemed to require two carries over marshes and other than 7 were 564, 580, and 600, so basically three shotters. With all the forced carries it is definitely a "players club" as the name implies.
In looking at the holes on an individual level there's a lot of pretty darn good ones, but I wouldn't want to play it regularly based on the repetitiveness of things and the forced carries.
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I left out a phrase. I haven't played Arcadia Bluffs SINCE IT OPENED. Sorry about that.
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I guess you must have played it before it opened then, eh? Funny, I don't remember seeing you. In any case, for some reason there are some people who like to bash Arcadia Bluffs for things that they wouldn't notice at any other venue and I really can't figure out why. A beautiful view of Lake Michigan from nearly every spot on the course, incredible conditioning, fast, tricky greens.... deep, well placed bunkers...yeah it sucks alright. I can hardly wait to play next week.
Steve
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If you're headed to the sunrise side, I'd strongly recommend the Gailes. I can't speak for the condition this year, but it has been great in years' past. One of the very best courses in Michigan.
I am not a big fan of Art Hills's work, but I like Red Hawk quite a bit. A very good range of holes with some strategy. #2, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11, 14, 15, 16, and 18 or very good.
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Thanks Peter;
Red Hawk is NOT coming off my list. Wow! Sure are a lot of courses I 'need' to play in Michigan.
If I hit the lottery, guess I'll by a Summer Home up there.
Doug
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Well;
Now my playing partner wants me to ask about one more. No one has mentioned Buck's Run. Any thoughts?
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Doug,
I'd heard great things about Bucks Run, but was underwhelmed when I played it last month. Keep on trucking thru Mt. Pleasant on your way northeast, west, or northwest.
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I played Buck's Run in May. It's not bad -- there are some fun, interesting holes. But in my opinion it doesn't quite live up to its reputation. If you're going through the middle of the state, you're better off shooting for Eagle Eye in East Lansing.
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Doug, Bucks Run is a nice course. Although compared to most of the courses mentioned I wouldn't bother. I did like some of the holes but honestly it's not something to see on this trip. I'm trying to get up to Red Hawk myself, the course I work at is associated with Red Hawk however I haven't had the chance. Please post your impressions of the courses you do play when you get back.
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S. Huffstutler, Good catch on the grammer. Arcadia is a beatuiful place and a good course. Like Bay Harbor I don't think the golf lives up to the potential of the site, especially on the front side. The back side does have some excellent holes.
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Sorry it's taken so long to reply, I've been on vacation. I'm wondering how you can make statements regarding the quality of a hole without having played it? I'm also curious to hear how the course could have been made any better, in your estimation. The sort of mental masturbation that people engage in concerning high profile golf courses just kills me (unless it's a Doak course, of course)....you just throw out statements like" well....the back could have been better" because it's an internet website and you don't have to defend yourself to anybody who knows better. Share your insight with me and tell me how the place would have been inproved if you had been hired as a consultant.
regards,
Steve
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mental masturbation
another winner in the GCA quotes of the year competition!
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It's been said before but Timberstone is nice (has one of the biggest elevation drops from tee to green I have ever played) but if you go to the U.P. play Greywalls. I am from Marquette and in the past Timberstone was the only course worth talking about but now finally there is truly a worthy course in Greywalls.
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Paul;
And if I ever get to get there, as intended, both of those will I play!
BTW, Timberstone will have to go a ways to equal the beautiful 240ft drop onto a lovely little faiyway at the 325 yd [obviously reachable but what a risk/reward] par-4 #13 at Eagle Ridge in Eastern Kentucky. Can't wait to see Timberstone, I am a mountain person at heart and mountain golf is as natural as [fresh] air to me!
Doug
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Doug,
If you are a mountain golfer you will like both of these courses. Greywalls (which gets a lot of press right now) is more the rugged type of jagged hills with rock outcropings. As you have heard it is fabulous.
Timberstone is a little more rolling course that runs up and down a mountainside although the ridges and valleys can be abrupt. (BTW mountains in the U.P. are foothills in KY). The BEST part for you my freind, is that number 18 is a par five that has got to drop at LEAST 300 feet from tee to green. The tee boxes are high, then the fairway is built into essentially two terraces, and then the final landing area and green. It is heaven if you love to hit driver! Talk about hang time.
Hope you enjoy your trip one day. Let me know when you get close and I can give you local knowledge on eating etc.
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Thanks Paul, I will.
The hole I was describing at ER sounds like that; you hit you driver, walk to your cart to get a drink and put up your club, then walk back over to watch the ball land.......LOL. If it is not too busy, I doubt ANY player hits only one shot at that tee. It is just too much fun. ;D
Doug