Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mike Hoak on August 27, 2007, 10:44:08 AM
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The latest issue of the DC Golfstyles Magazine had an article that talked about the new course that Lester George and Vinny Giles are designing. The club is being built outside of Roanoke, VA. My understanding is that the club will have a small--largely national--membership and that the only homes on the property will be cottages for visiting members and guests. The facility will be walking only. The project sounds very interesting.
Does anyone have any additional info on the project? Given the area, the land is likely to have significant elevation changes. I know Lester posts here occasionally. Maybe he can share some further details.
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Mike,
I know nothing about the course in question, but with all due respect to Lester and Vinny, the next course that opens with the prefix "Bally..." should be censored. ;)
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Mike,
The "Bally" name is what piqued my interest as well. Here is a link to a Roanoke Times article I dug up on the place. Apparently, the club is being financed by the same group that built Sutton Bay. Here is a link to the story:
http://tinyurl.com/2egyab (http://tinyurl.com/2egyab)
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A friend of mine showed me a pretty detailed routing plan for Ballyhack about a year ago. It's been awhile, but it looked pretty interesting...a lot of split fairways ala Kinloch, but rougher around the edges with what appeared to be pretty jagged bunker lines.
You can't tell a whole lot from a routing plan, but I was certainly impressed and intrigued.
I was under the impression it was closer to Lexington, but I could be mistaken. Either way, there is some pretty dramatic land to work with in that area of Virginia.
Hopefully Lester will chime in with an update.
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The course abuts the Blue Ridge Parkway (which runs along the edge of Raonoke) and is something like 1.5 miles from city limits.
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Interesting name. In Gaelic, bally means "place of." So we have "place of hack."
I'm not sure what makes the club so unique, it sounds like they're going after a similar membership and program as Olde Farm in Bristol.
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http://www.roanoke.com/sports/golf/wb/wb/xp-125183
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There's a place in Waterford called Ballyhack. A very nice place it is too.
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"place of hack"
Never was a more apt name puned
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The course originally had a different name. During the planning, an ederly woman told our director of golf Jonathan Ireland, that where we were planning to build the course (in a town named Mt Pleasant) used to be referred to as "Ballyhack" by the locals. We researched it and, sure enough, Ballyhack, VA actually existed up until about the 40's. There is one reference of a shoot out between local police and the owners of a still that actually ended in some deaths, including a police officer. The article was from Ballyhack, VA.
The golf course is being developed by me, Bill Kubly of Landscapes Unlimited, Balzer & Associates of Roanoke and several other equity partners including Vinny Giles and Coach Frank Beamer of VA TECH.
The business plan is modelled after Sutton Bay which was developed by Bill. The plan calls for 60 local members only and 250 national members. It is remote (feels that way when you get there even though it is close to Roanoke and it's airport) and offers accomodations for 60 overnight.
The course is characterized by extraordinary views and terrain. Very big (bold) features, large (one double green of 38,000 s.f.) greens, ragged edged bunkers and multiple tees. Right now it is weighing-in about 7,300 yards. The site has only 80 homesites of which 30 are already spoken for. It also already has about 220 acres in open pasture which is beautiful fescue and orchard grasses which will make up most of the holes. The site is simply SPECTACULAR!!!! The golf course promises to be different and intriguing.
Anyone wanting more info please contact me or Bill by e-mail and we will send out info. We have broken ground and are the process of installing erosion control and demolition.
We also intend to have hunting, fishing and spa treatments as well as conference facilities for members to conduct business and bring guests.
Kudos to Bill Kubly for "showing me te way" on this one. I found the property, zoned it, got permits for it, then realized I had to have a better plan than just another club. Bill inspired the business plan and provided the expertise in forming the partnership. Now, I'm just following his lead.
Lester
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Lester, I see you are doing a website with Cybergolf. I hope photos of before, during, and after construction will be featured. It seems that is the 'model' these days to create buzz. Pac Dunes, BallyNeal, Chambers, etc., all used the development-construction time to build interest through good websites with the likes of we GCA nut cases.
Will you please let us know when a webpage is up and running?
Thanks...
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Lester,
Wow. Are you the first professional architect turned developer? Crump brought in people, Wilson was doing it for Merion CC. Archie Struthers did Twisted Dune as a first course. I am sure there are many on small scale projects such as my old home at The Jersey Shore Avalon GC but even Bob Hendricks was a golf pro, not an architect. I don't know of any on this scale?
Good luck, it sounds like you surrounded yourself with very good people.
PS. I played Kinloch again last month and the course has matured nicely.
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RJ,
I know our website is being developed as we speak. I am pretty sure it will be up and running by the end of September. Yes, we will feature photos of progress and probably do some kind of newsletter for members and prospectives.
Mike,
I'm sure I'm not the first architect to develop a course. I just saw this piece of property 5 or 6 years ago and it has haunted me ever since. It has taken alot of work and good partners, but we have come this far, we are going through with it. Obviuosly my partners see the same thing (maybe) as I do. Probably won't make it a habit to develop as it is very time consuming and takes my attention away from the clients.
Trouble is, someone early on basically told me I could never acquire this piece of land and that if I did I couldn't pull it off. Not sure if they are right yet, but it only inspired me to try.
Will keep ya'll updated if there is interest. Thanks for the kind words on Kinloch.
Lester
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Mike,
One of the original names was "Big Lick" which is what Roanoke Virginia was known as in the early settlement days. Couldn't get that one past most people. Another early name idea was "1218" which was a very historic locomotive manufacture in the Roanoke Shops of Norfolk and Western Railroad. At one time the Roanoke Shops could produce up to 13 locomotives a day!!
Anyway, when Ballyhack and the story came along we could not get passed it, therefore Ballyhack. As you did, most people think it is a cutesy name made up by us, but it's the real thing so we stuck with it.
BTW gentlement, we will be posting pictures on our website www.georgegolfdesign.com by the end of the week.
Lester
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We researched it and, sure enough, Ballyhack, VA actually existed up until about the 40's. There is one reference of a shoot out between local police and the owners of a still that actually ended in some deaths, including a police officer. The article was from Ballyhack, VA.
Lester,
Ok...I'll let you slide with the "Bally" name....this time. ;)
Thanks for the update. It sounds like an exciting project. I do drive through/stay in Roanoke when we drive to Atlanta so I hope to see it down the road.
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Here's an aerial of the area in question. Which corner of the Blue Ridge Pkwy and Pitzer are we talking about?
http://maps.live.com/?v=2&sp=Point.q62ktp8bc11t_Pitzer%20Rd%2C%20Roanoke%2C%20VA%2024014%2C%20United%20States___&encType=1
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Gentlemen,
I have some interesting pictures of the site and a Master Plan that I would post if I knew how. If someone wants to post them, please contact me by e-mail and I'll send them along.
lester@georgegolfdesign.com
Lester
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Lester's pics of the property:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/bh1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/bh2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/property002.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/property005.jpg)
and the current master plan:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/bhmp.jpg)
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Guess I'll be called a homer, but here is one of the founding
partners with Lester, VT football coach Frank Beamer.
Methinks Beamer won't be so happy come late Saturday night.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/Beamer_Bally.jpg)
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Scott,
Based on what I saw last weekend, Saturday is going to be a very bad day for VT unless some miracle occurs.
LG
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Lester,
The routing of 13, 14 & 15 is pretty unique. Do you mind elaborating on how you came up with that particular configuration?
Also, is that a short game practice area behind the 12th green...and what’s that to the left of the 10th tee?
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Cabell,
The routing for 13, 14, 15 came about lately when the Corps of Engineers requested that we try to have less impact on the stream running through the holes and adjust the lake to have only one channel affected. This is a case of "Necessity is the mother of all invention" as those holes were created as a result of the changes. As a matter-of-fact, I was already contemplating the monster par 5, 15th because of the ravine that splits the fairway. By combining the 13 and 15 greens we got a chance to create a great (38,000 s.f.) green that really fits in the surrounding terrain well.
The area behind 12 green is the short game facility for the over night guests. The other is the short game facility for the pro to teach his members.
Good questions. Thanks for asking.
As an update, we have two greens roughed in and started clearing today.
Lester
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These were sent to me.
Aerial pics of the property, as work has begun on the course:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/BallyhackAerial1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/BallyhackAerial6.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/BallyhackAerial10-072.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/BallyhackAerial10-074.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/BallyhackAerial10-079.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/BallyhackAerial10-0718.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/BallyhackAerial10-0711.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/BallyhackAerial.jpg)
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Whatever happened to
the only homes on the property will be cottages for visiting members and guests
?
Ulrich
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For being in the mountains it doesn't appear to be a mountain goat course. It sure will be a beautiful place to play. It is interesting to see the course in the first phases of construction. Thanks
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More construction pics of the course, taken on 23 Nov:
Front nine:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/FrontNine11-23-07.jpg)
#9 from tee:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/Hole9fromTee11-23-07.jpg)
#9 shaping:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/Hole9Shaping11-23-07.jpg)
#3 and #4:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/Holes3411-23-07.jpg)
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I'll leave a more definitive opinion to the pros on the board, but that sure seems like a perfect property for the construction of a golf course. As for the name, the "bally" may be overused, but I rather like the ballyhack. Could also go with ballyslash, ballychunk, ballydunk, ballyslap. Hell, the possibilities are endless.
Anybody know what a national membership is going for?
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Is the site up for Ballyhack yet? It looks great so far!
Terry, an article in the Roanoke Times:
"The club model calls for only 60 local and 200 national members. Fully refundable membership deposits run from $40,000 to $130,000, with annual dues from $2,500 to $10,000. All of those numbers vary depending on a member's location and status."
Paul
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Thanks for the idea, Paul, look what I found:
http://www.ballyhackgolfclub.com
Lots of construction pics and other info.
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Scott,
Thanks for posting the latest pics.
Terry,
As I explained in an earlier post, I would have avoided the name "Bally" anything until we found out that Ballyhack was actually the name of the area until about 1940. There are actually people who STILL call Mt. Pleasant "Ballyhack".
As for the site, the pictures really don't do it justice. It is a breathtaking site with tremendous terrain that is bold and has about perfect frequency. Its is not perfect, but it is very good.
Lester
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I worked with Lester George on a renovation of a course I'm a member of in Richmond, Virginia. We had such a great time working together on that project that he asked me to help him create a little website where he can keep people up to date on the progress of his Ballyhack course. Lester is both the course architect and a partner in the project and he has been really interested in telling the story of Ballyhack from his personal point of view. We're setting up a blog where Lester and some of his partners will be doing just that. It's in the early stages of development right now but it's here:
Building Ballyhack Blog (http://ballyhackgolfclub.blogspot.com/)
We're going to try and make a little bit of a "reality show" about what goes into building a golf course. We hope it will be educational as well as interesting for golfers who may not ever have the chance to be involved in a golf course construction project. For most of you guys here on GCA there will probably not be anything particularly educational for you but it will give you a chance to keep up with the project if you are interested in it.
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Thanks Paul.
Ya'll check out the Ballyhack Blog
Lester
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Mr. George,
Just checked out the blog and watched the videos, looks like a really special project. I was just curious as to the type of grasses that you are using at Ballyhack?
Thanks,
Brendan
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I live in Roanoke, and know several BallyHack members. Lester and crew are building on a truly spectacular piece of property. Honestly, the photos don't do it justice. It's maybe four miles from the city, but it feels like it's in the middle of nowhere.
Playing a round there when the fall trees have changed colors will be truly special.
WW
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Some updated construction pics of bunkering:
#2:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/Bunker2Green6-20-08.jpg)
#3:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/3Green6-20-08.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/Bunkers36-20-08.jpg)
#4:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/Bunkers4Fairway6-20-08.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/BunkersHole46-20-08.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/FrontLeft46-20-08.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/Right46-20-08.jpg)
#5:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/Hole56-20-08.jpg)
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Scott,
Thanks for posting. I am Ballyhack today and tomorrow to final grassing lines. We start seeding next Wednesday. On schedule to open next summer/fall.
Lester
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Lester,
The bunkers look great. Are you planning longer fescues on the bunker banks or will it be cut a rough height? Either way they look very rugged.
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Cory,
Most bunkers will have the Primary rough cut (2-3 inch fescue) associated with the fairway side and Secondary (6+ inches, native blend) around on the backside. Our goal is not to look too contrived or formal anywhere. Bunkers in the middle of fairways will have fair (bent) right to Secondary.
Lester
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Grassing has started on a few holes:
#4:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/Hole4fromRoadCul-de-Sac7-27-08.jpg)
#4 fairway:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/Hole4Fairway7-25-08.jpg)
#3:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/Hole3Bunker7-25-08.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/Hole37-25-08.jpg)
#4 tees:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Ballyhack/GrassingHole4Tees7-25-08.jpg)