Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Andy Hughes on July 25, 2006, 11:29:12 AM
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I had the good fortune to play the PB Dye Golf Club several weeks ago. This is a better course than I believe most Maryland/DC/Virginia golfers realize, with some of the most interesting greens in the region. One under-rated feauture is the number of shots one must hit from non-level lies.
Many of the holes are transformed from average to interesting by the contours and slopes of the greens. The first two holes illustrate this well.
Hole #1 is 380 yards, slightly downhill and bending to the right. There is a hidden fairway bunker cutting in from the right that will snare a long hitter trying to get close.
But the trick is the approach. The front half of the green follows the contours of the fairway, which means it all falls towards the back. Even with a wedge, an approach that hits the front is likely to run well past a front pin. The front of the green is open to encourage a shot hit short that scoots on. (firmer conditions would encourage this more—but we played after a decent amount of rain so I am not sure how the approaches normally play)
Hole #2 is a 140 par 3, down the hill a little. There are falloffs around much of the green, but of particular interest is the little ledge on the left side of the green that makes the approach much more exacting than it first appears. I thought my 9 iron was good, hitting maybe 8-9’ right of the left-hand pin. But it caught the slope and ended up 25’ feet away.
(On the bank surrounding the green there are dozens of railroad ties buried into the face. This has no impact on the play of the whole; it is purely for aesthetics and I think it looks kinda silly personally)
Holes of note:
#4 410 yards, but plays shorter if the drive can carry the crest of a hill and pick up speed on the far side. The approach is exacting: a pond abuts the right side of the green, left is a steep drop off to some snarly rough, and front left is a trap. The back of the green is several feet higher than the front, bisected by a ridge that cuts all the way across. This provides a nice wall behind front pins, but makes back pins pretty tricky, especially as over the green is pretty bad.
#11 160 yards, downhill. Semi-island green, with a bank on the right that supplies helpful kicks towards the green for those faint-of-heart who leak it away from water. Green is bullheaded all around by vertical boards (*sigh*)
#12 520 yards. Good chance to get some back. Fun hole starts with a blind, downhill drive over an aiming stone to a wide fairway. Decisions, decisions for the second shot. Go for the green? Lay up?
A ditch crosses the fairway around the 100 yard mark. The lay up is best even further back, though, to avoid a downhill lie. Going for the green brings two put bunkers just short into the mix. But the best part is the green, with the back being at least 5 feet higher than the front and all sorts of slopes and swales. It is not Sitwell Park, but it did cross my mind—it was fun rolling balls around this green and it is easy to see how players more familiar with the course could use the slopes to maximum advantage.
I understand the course has been modified since originally built. Does anyone know what changes were made?
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Andy,
I agree with you that PB Dye is better than most would expect. The greens were interesting and though I felt a few of the holes that traversed the property laterally (from the semi-island hole at the bottom to the holes on the other side of the property...sorry I don't recall the cardinal directions of each side) were fairly unremarkable and lacking character.
Otherwise, I am in agreement with you on the merits of the course - an interesting course in a region/market where a lot of the mid-upscale publics are somewhat blah (Worthington Manor comes to immediate mind).
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I have not played PB Dye Golf Club, but fwiw, the course that he did in Cincinnati called the Heritage Club is one of the strangest designed courses that I have ever stepped foot on. Some times I played it and just can't stand it, others it is not so bad and kind of fun. Mostly hate it though. The par 3 6th hole is one of the most penal hit or miss par 3's that I have ever seen. No water, but it might be the scariest shot I have ever faced. I saw a kid that was 1 under in the Ohio Amateur make a 10 here, his crime? Ball rolled over into a bunker by about 3 feet. Was PB Dye Golf Club over the top at all? Heritage certainly is.
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The bulkheaded par 3 Andy mentioned seems over the top with the sole goal of giving golfers the percieved "Dye experience"
It's actually a good par 3, but just looks like he's trying to fulfill a certain requisite set of features.
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I played it last week for the first time this year, and enjoyed the course very much! I believe that one change that has been made to the course was to grow rough around the greens in what were originally collection areas. 3 of us in my group hit to the right of the green on the par 4 6th hole, and you could tell by the design that it was originally meant to give you the option of hitting a putt or bump and run up the slope, but the rough had been grown in instead.
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I have played the course 3 or 4 times over the last several years. When it first opened, the course was criticized by many for being too over the top and too difficult. In response, the club removed several bunkers and toned down the contours on 1 or 2 greens. Like someone else mentioned, the staff also grew in rough around many of the green surrounds.
I have to agree with the comments on PB Dye's liberal use of lumber at this course. The wood planks set into the hillside behind the number two green look ridiculous and the planks around the downhill par 3 quasi-island green look out of place as well.
The course is a fun play and certainly beats his other work in this area (which isn't saying much).
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Glenn, playability-wise, I don't think any of the course is 'over the top.' Aesthetically however, I find the railroad ties unattractive, especially as they serve no functional purpose other than to show the course was designed by a Dye (I think Ryan alluded to that).
Here is a link to number 16: http://pbdyegolf.com/facility/hole16.php (http://pbdyegolf.com/facility/hole16.php). It's a funky hole that forces you to hit left even though you see the green right, and also to pick your yardage for the tee shot to hit specific portions of the fairway and avoid the waste area. But all kinds of greenide bunkers and the front of the green itself are just immersed in the railroad ties. It seems weird to me to have this hole look this way when no other bunkers are given this treatment.
Ryan, I agree re the holes you describe as lacking character. I found their saving grace to be the greens however; there was something to grab your attention on each.
I spoke with the starter, and expressed some admiration for the greens. Apparently, I was the only one--he said most people complain about them being too tricky, too hard etc.
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Eric, strange. My partner hit one right of 6 green and it was cut at fairway height and he did putt it. This was two weeks ago--perhaps they let it go since we played.
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Here http://pbdyegolf.com/facility/hole11.php (http://pbdyegolf.com/facility/hole11.php) is a link to the 11th hole, the par 3 with lots of wood.
Its a fun hole that just happens to be highly flammable. ;)
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Andy and others...
How would you rank the courses up that corridor? Off the top of my head I can think of:
PB Dye
Worthington Manor
Whiskey Creek
Musket Ridge
Maryland National
I'm probably missing a few.
Tim
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I would rank the Frederick, MD area courses as follows (in order of preference):
Whiskey Creek
Musket Ridge
PB Dye
Maryland National
Worthington Manor
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The course was underwhelming for Bette and I. We have seen a good % of the holes before and we were really critical of how high it was ranked....but, what do we know? ;D
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Cary-
How high is it ranked? I wasn't aware that it was ranked anywhere other than perhaps top 10 or 15 in Maryland public, which doesn't seem to be too tall an order.
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I thought it was ranked in the top 10 modern in GOlfweek
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Ah hah - that explains it.
You're mixing this up with Pete Dye golf club, number 5 on Golfweek's Modern list.
PB Dye was not listed on the Golfweek or Golf Digest best in state lists for this past edition.
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Ahh, my mistake :P
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Tim, I have played Whiskey Creek and Maryland National once each, several years ago, and have never played Worthington Manor or Musket Ridge. So I can't really comment.
I would add Little Bennett to the list though; its up there somewhere not too far from PB Dye. Has some holes I like, some I dislike and a few that make me scratch my head and wonder...
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PB Dye
Maryland National
Worthington Manor
Whiskey Creek
Musket Ridge
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I have played all of the Frederick County Corridor courses listed. My 2 cents:
1. Musket Ridge - Most playable on the list. Great conditioning with bent grass tee to green. Priced a little high for its remote location.
2. Whiskey Creek - Despite the PR Ernie Els only made 3 visits to the site. Brian Connelly a design associate of Michael Poellote Design was the architect. The course is fun and interesting and typically maintained in excellent condition. Several funky holes like #12. Kemper manages the course and and they always move the tee markers up one or two tee patios to speed play. Disregard the color of the tee markers and take note of the actual tees you are playing before you start bragging how you shot such a great score from the "Blue Tees" Highest price among the list.
3. Worthington Manor - Probably the most underrated on the list. A solid test with several forced carries. Maintained in great shape with a very good staff. Probably the best bargain on the list.
4. PB Dye - Interesting golf course with numerous blind shots both off the tee and to the greens. I understand the course has been soften over the years. When it opened you could not see your tee shot land on 13 of 14 non par three holes. Approaches were notorious for landing on blind slopes and bounding away from the green. PB is a cocky little SOB and provided an inferior product for his clients who have been trying to fix since the course opened. Overpriced for the experience.
5. Maryland National - very good 14 hole golf course. The remaining 4 holes were squeezed into a small piece of land. Apparently A. Hills requested that the owners purchase an adjacent parcel to properly route the course. His request was denied. Beware of tee shots from #10 as you are putting on #9. I have seen balls land on the green. Course is maintained in very good condition. Bring your hard hat! Overpriced for location. Musket is a better option and only 1 mile away.
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Rob,
As usual, our favorites lists are almost completely diametrically opposed.
We are the yin and yang of golf. ;)
Of course, I'm right and you're wrong, but that's just my opinion. ;D
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I would rank them as follows:
Musket Ridge
PB Dye
Whiskey Creek
Worthington Manor
Maryland National
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Heh. Interesting that Mike and Rob and Mike have such different lists.
I suspect an appreciation for capricousness or whimsy or the unusual would make someone push the PB Dye course above the others on the list that I have played. I found Whiskey Creek to be more 'normal', but would rather play PB Dye. For me, the blind tee shots were far from a negative and I can't really recall too many blind approach shots (other than #3 and a few others where the pin was visible but maybe not it's bottom) but I wouldn't consider them a negative anyway.
The greens at PB Dye really required one to think and execute more than at Whiskey Creek or Maryland National, and also enabled one to get to different spots on the green via slopes and contours and backstops--perhaps I am a sucker for those types of greens, but interesting greens, to me, overcome all kinds of ills.
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Rob - I found another very dangerous spot at MD Nat...it's the hole after the par 3 on the back....the tee is directly right of the green...when I was standing there waiting to hit I was thinking "this could be dangerous" and sure enough a ball almost got us
the routing of that course truly puzzles me...many long drives between holes AND two very dangerous situations?!?!
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Paul
Like I said, Hills asked for additional land and was denied. The owners kept a portion for residential development. The last three holes are really jammed in there. I guess an architect can only play the hand he is dealt!
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Oh, I agree with everyone that Maryland National is a routing disaster. In fact, it's almost a case study for gawdawful routing. I frankly can't believe there isn't enough acreage there to create a better routing.
It's just that it has about 8-9 holes better than anything you'll find at, say Whiskey Creek or Musket Ridge.
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Oh, I agree with everyone that Maryland National is a routing disaster. In fact, it's almost a case study for gawdawful routing. I frankly can't believe there isn't enough acreage there to create a better routing.
that was my point Mike..with so much distance between tees and greens there, one would think you could have built 18 holes without causing 2 serious safety situations
there are some good holes there, I also agree
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Mike
I hate to say this...but I agree that MD National has some very good holes. Unfortunately courses are evaluated as an 18 hole package! The frustration generated by the bad and dangerous holes at MD Nat. put it well below Musket and Whiskey from a golf experience standpoint. FORE!!!!
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Hmmm..
Who's the architect at MD National?
Thought so..
By the way, I've played the PB Dye Club many times from its opening until just a couple of years ago..
I think it's a fun course. It has some inherent problems with routing, but it's not a bad track.
It's a real fun course to play when it's running fast and hard.
#1-#5-#9-#12-#14-#17 present some real challenges the ball is jumping combined with tight pins.
When they cut the rough down it's a joy to play.
When it is wet, your choices there are severely limited.
It's got a number of elevated greens, others with chipping areas..My problem is 13 is squeezed in there awful tight.
9 and 18 are mirror views of each other..Not much diversity there. 10 is not my favorite too pedestrian for what he had to work with.
8 and 11 are good par threes..
Put a birdie on PB Dye himself on 11.
Bottom line, you'll get to hit a lot of clubs, try a few heroic shots and hopefully roll in a couple of long putts.
The green fee is high..But so are the others around it..WM-WC and so on..
Jesse
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Played it last year and enjoyed it enough to buy a logo ball (but not a shirt).
Lots of angles, especially off the tee, and I recall most greens having rolling surrounds and contours.
My favorites: #4 is a nice short-n-tempting par 4 that can cause problems if you miss the green. Par 3 # 8 had a fun green and surrounding area for some creative 2nd shots (ok so I missed the green). #10 was another short par 4 -- not sure I actually had the OPTION of carrying those dogleg bunkers, but I liked it. Huge downhill par 3 #11 over water was fun.
And, in addition to the railroad ties, no one has mentioned the waterfall behind the 18th green.
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Jesse and Matt, you both mentioned #10...I feel that hole be could be much improved by making it a tad shorter and adding some fairway right of what should be the centerline bunker.
It is not in the least a drivable short par 4 now, but it could be if it was shorter with the wide, enticing fairway left offering the much better angle, and a smaller fairway right giving the direct route.
(PS Matt--I suspect lottsa folks miss the 8th green. Pretty long shot up the hill in to the wind)
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Thought I'd bump this back up since I asked on page 1 about a ranking of the courses up the I-270/I-70 corridor.
I wanted a break from my home course so I went up to play PB Dye today and, ta-dum, I loved it. The bad news is it was cart path only. The good news is it was cart path only due to a lack of rain and a low level of water in the irrigation pond surrounding the 11th green. This meant conditions were very firm and very fast.
I played with a nice guy named Rick who has been playing there since it opened. He pointed out all the changes - the bunker in the middle of the 3rd fairway that had been filled in, all the areas around greens where short grass had been allowed to grow long. It was fun and educational.
I agree with Matt MacIver - there are lots of angles to be had. And the holes that don't have interesting angles still have interesting greens. There is something to make you think on most of the holes. With the conditions we had today, many holes had run-up options and very rarely was a lob wedge the play anywhere on the course.
I didn't score that well but I had a blast. I think I could knock 10 shots off my score the next time I play there.
I can understand the criticism from an aesthetic perspective and even, maybe, from a dirt moving perspective. The property itself is so gorgeous that surely something more minimalist ("more minimalist" - does that even make sense?) could have been laid across the land. But, frankly, from a golfing standpoint there is not a lot to argue with. It's different, it's fun, it's playable. Nothing wrong with a little variety.
Tim
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There many noteworthy courses I have not seen in The Old Line State, but of those I have seen the greens at PB Dye GC are the most interesting!
My only complaint was given the recent lack of rain they oughta have them running faster. (Some fairways are starting to turn yellow out there...)
Those of you with more MD golf experience, how do they compare to others in the region in terms of contours, movement, wildness?
I could post pics if there's any interest, although the lighting was poor and the contours didn't come out very well.
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Mark, I can't claim much in the way of MD experience, but the PB Dye greens are the most interesting I have seen here.
Were the fairways playing somewhat fast? I don't believe I've ever played the course when it wasn't soft to some extent
Andy
PS I'd like to see your current pictures if it isn't too much bother
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I have not played PB Dye Golf Club, but fwiw, the course that he did in Cincinnati called the Heritage Club is one of the strangest designed courses that I have ever stepped foot on. Some times I played it and just can't stand it, others it is not so bad and kind of fun. Mostly hate it though. The par 3 6th hole is one of the most penal hit or miss par 3's that I have ever seen. No water, but it might be the scariest shot I have ever faced. I saw a kid that was 1 under in the Ohio Amateur make a 10 here, his crime? Ball rolled over into a bunker by about 3 feet. Was PB Dye Golf Club over the top at all? Heritage certainly is.
Glenn;
You can't mention PB Dye and Cincy without Buck Point. That is a course, as we certainly agree, with much to recommend it. The folks in the clubhouse claimed he planned to retire there. I do not know the veracity of that ........
Doug