Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: T_MacWood on January 26, 2005, 01:33:50 PM
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The years is 1913. You have perhaps the greatest inland site for golf in the world. What architect would you hire and why?
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George Crump. He'll do it for free and give Colt $10,000 and a lot of the credit ;D
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Interesting. Ross was still relatively unknown. Mack, Flynn, Thomas hadn't really arrived on the scene in 1913.
If the land is in the US, the best known designers would have been CBM or Travis. Leeds would have been too much of a nut case.
If in the UK, you'd go with Colt.
Or is there a trick to the question?
Bob
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A.W. T
I like his style.
If I ended up with something that resembled either BP Black or Ridgewood CC I'd be a very happy man.
-Ted
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I'd sit on the property until Alister MacKenzie was available. Then I'd disappear for a few years, only returning when the course was done so I could appreciate his work in a single, momentous moment.
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My gut reaction is Colt.
If it proved expensive to bring him over from England, I'd contact Tillinghast.
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1913 Ross's CC of Havana was recieiving international acclaim. You've also got to consider Willie Park-Jr and Herbert Fowler/Tom Simspon.
What were the best golf courses in the world in 1913?
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Myopia Hunt?
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Garden City Golf Club??
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Fowler/Simpson in North America would be good too, Tom. Great suggestion.
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I'd sit on the property until Alister MacKenzie was available. Then I'd disappear for a few years, only returning when the course was done so I could appreciate his work in a single, momentous moment.
It's quite a thought to speculate how PV would have turned out if MacK had been hired. 1913 was the year he did Sitwell Park.
What would PV have been like with MacK obsessed with creating those wild greens? Better? Or maybe a disaster.
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Tom MacWood asked:
"The years is 1913. You have perhaps the greatest inland site for golf in the world. What architect would you hire and why?"
The greatest inland site in the world where?
If it were in England I'd hire one of the heathland architects in 1913. If the site was in New York, I'd try to hire Macdonald/Raynor or maybe Emmet. If it were in New England or particularly Rhode Island I'd probably try to hire Ross. If it were in the Philadelphia area I might try doing it myself with the collaboration of the amateur contingent from the "Philadelphia School of Architecture" that appeared to be regularly floating in and out of the likes of Merion East and PVGC that were beginning to be created.
Of course another option would be to just wait about 80-90 years and just get Bill and Ben to do it no matter where in the world it was!
;)
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Tom,
I think it is far more than the question of what were the best golf courses in the world at that moment. I think the better question would be which courses were hosting the more important golf tournaments.
One year after Shawnee, his first course, opened, Tillinghast and Worthington (Shawnee's owner) started the Shawnee Open in 1912. The best players, amateurs and professionals alike, descended on Shawnee-on-the-Delaware to play. from the first tournament through the mid-twenties, the Shawnee Open was considered one of the most important tournaments in the land, achieving what we might consider near-major status today.
The next year, with this one course under his belt, Tillinghast was on the road to design Brackenridge Park, Fort Sam Houston Golf Course, a redesign of the San Antonio Country Club and out to San Francisco to close the deal on the San Francisco Golf Club.
His early success and popularity as a preferred designer is owed to his consummate talent in promoting himself, and he did this through the Shawnee Open. The popularity of the course and praise for the designer was immediate and received coverage from sea-to-sea as much as anything that Tilly did, because of those who played in it and returned talking about it.
Baltusrol was also one of the world's great courses at this time having hosted several national championships already, and yet in 1918 they agreed to scrap their great course so that Tilly could design and build two new ones.
The man definitely knew how to market his services.
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I thought the answer to this question was always:
The one with the big- "here use your own description of mammary dysplasia."
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Actually, in retrospect, bringing Colt, Fowler, and/or Simpson to North America might not result in the very best golf course possible because of the limited time they'd inevitably spend on-site throughout construction.
In my mind, that would be a consideration.
I might have to call George Cumming or Nicol Thompson!
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"Actually, in retrospect, bringing Colt, Fowler, and/or Simpson to North America might not result in the very best golf course possible because of the limited time they'd inevitably spend on-site throughout construction.
In my mind, that would be a consideration."
Jeff:
That's precisely why these two Colt advocates on here (MacWood and Turner) when they keep proclaiming that Colt is not getting his due with PVGC are showing a considerable lack of commonsense, in my opinion.
Crump had been analyzing that site for probably a year before Colt first saw the site in June 1913. Colt is there for one week and he never again returns to America. Crump spends the next four and a half years there every day until he dies prematurely.
You figure it out! ;)
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"Actually, in retrospect, bringing Colt, Fowler, and/or Simpson to North America might not result in the very best golf course possible because of the limited time they'd inevitably spend on-site throughout construction."
Jeff
That would probably disqualify MacKenzie and Alison as well....and Ross...and Tilly....
There is something to be said for quality over quanity...when it comes to time.
In America who was the biggest name among these three in 1913: Donald Ross, AW Tillinghast or HH Barker?
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Tom Paul
Still hiding your head in the sand, I see. The club only wants Crump credited and you know it! :D
Do you reckon there are 2 hands on the stick plan? I do.
One looks to be in a blue/grey pen or pencil..like Colt's in the design booklet shown in Finnegan's book.
The other hand is darker and labels the greens differently "G8"... likely Crumps, it's certainly not Colt's. Some frankly bizarre holes drawn by that hand on the back 9 (in sequence too)!! How do you explain those, eh.
(Send me any email or IM)
In 1913 Colt did probably have the best resume. But Mack was up to speed too. Not sure what Simpson had done by then. Nor Ross.
Tillie? I wonder how miffed he was for not being hired in 1913 by Crump. Was he a full time architect by then?
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John Sutherland 8)
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"Tom Paul
Still hiding your head in the sand, I see. The club only wants Crump credited and you know it!"
No Paul, I don't know that and the fact is I do know PVGC and it's membership a whole lot better than you do and I have for over 25 years now. The real irony here with Colt is that many in and around PVGC assume and have assumed for years that the course was to a very large extent designed by Colt. The ones I've known for years who might be seen as knowing more than most members of PVGC about the architecture of the course felt that way because all of them seemed to have been aware of Colt's hole by hole design booklet and that they assumed was the design of the golf course. Of all the members I've known over the years and talked to about that though, not a one of them had actually seen Colt's hole booklet or looked at it carefully. On the other hand, I'm fairly certain that hundreds upon hundreds of people have looked at that topo routing map of the golf course that's hung in the front room for years. If any of them looked at it closely and saw the inscription "Property of George Crump, March 1913" they may've assumed, as Finegan did, that that was all the work of George Crump. But what everyone who belongs to PVGC and knows the club and course does know is the extensive amount of time and money Crump put into the golf course. But the fact is so many have been aware of that Colt hole design booklet and have assumed that Colt designed the golf course and that is a fact I've known personally for many years from many members and the fact is you've not. It was not until Shelley's book and then Finegan's book that the Colt booklet was carefully studied and found to be somewhat different than the design of the holes on the course turned out to be. That may've been the point where the contribution of Colt or the club's perception of it began to be minimized. Of all the members I've know who believed that the design of the course may've been Colt's seemed quite intriqued and proud of that but again, that is something you would not know so I can't blame you now for not understanding it. The real irony is that we now know far more about who actually did what than the club has ever before known. So the truth of the details is beginning to come out and I don't see that any of the members I know who are aware of that are upset about it or resist it. But again, I wouldn't expect you to know or understand that. You and Tom MacWood are only going on what you've read in the Shelly and Finegan books and the truth is neither one give Colt the credit he's due. The membership should know that and they also should know that Colt did not design that whole golf course as many thought he did for the reasons I just explained. And that is the truth of how PVGC both looked and and probably looks at it now. And that I do know for the reasons I've just given. But you can continue to rail against the Club for always glorifying Crump that served to minimize Colt but you would be wrong. And this apparent notion of Tom MacWood's that the club set out on a dedicated campaign immediiately following Crump's death to glorify Crump at the expense of Colt simply because Crump blew his brains out rather than died of poison from an abscess is the most laughably illogical assumption or conclustion imaginable!
"Do you reckon there are 2 hands on the stick plan? I do."
By the stick plan do you mean what we call the first topo routing map? If so I never have reckoned there were two hands on it but that's surely possible. Have you actually looked at that topo routing in the maintenance building?
"One looks to be in a blue/grey pen or pencil..like Colt's in the design booklet shown in Finnegan's book."
Do you mean on what we call the first topo routing map?
"The other hand is darker and labels the greens differently "G8"... likely Crumps, it's certainly not Colt's. Some frankly bizarre holes drawn by that hand on the back 9 (in sequence too)!! How do you explain those, eh."
On the first topo routing map? If you mean by the sequences of lines particularly on the back nine and some on the front nine I've so far accounted that to Crump trying to route the course on his own before Colt arrived. To the extent those lines don't conform to the way the course turned out one should probably logically assume those are the routed holes Colt came up with when he did arrive in June 1913. I assume from those lines on the back nine that don't conform to the way the course turned out may be the reason Crump called on Colt! The lines on that first routing that do conform to the way the course turned out should probably be assumed to have been Crump. But as we've said many times on here it's impossible to know what either of them came up with when they were out there together. We certainly do know and can see on the second topo that some of the things Colt came up with Crump overruled and X-ed out. I hope you understand that.
That is in a routing context. The other context is the "desigining" of the particulars of the holes of the routing and only comparing the similarities and difference of the way the course turned out to Colt's hole design booklet can determine what should be attributed to Colt and what should be attributed to Crump.
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Yes I mean the stick diagram that shown in the super's office...the one Ian sent me.
Two hands. Different pens/pencils. Different labelling.
If the club was interested in Colt/Alison/Tillie's and other's contribution, the I'd expect to see something in the clubhouse on the card etc. But they don't!
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Paul:
I've never noticed the light blue lines on the first topo routing map in the super's office that're on the second one in the clubhouse. The same photo you have from Ian he also sent me (a mumber of times actually) and to be honest I can't see details or distinctions very well on that photo. But I'm certainly interesting in anything that would indicate what's on there and from whom. Hand-writing analysis, drawing style, color lines, whatever. I dont see any of the roman numerals on that map that are on the other one that I've very much assumed are Colt's. Have you ever been in the super's office and looked at that first topo routing? Have you seen the notation, for instance, on top of it and if so what does it say?
Let me ask you something else Paul. Since Tom MacWood is obviously dedicatedly avoiding answering our continuous questions about what he thinks the significance of a possible Crump suicide is to what that club has felt about Crump and Colt let me ask you if you think a possible Crump suicide has any significance in that vein and if so what would it be?
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I don't think Crump's suicide detracts from him, in any way. But I would like to know why he did it.
I'll enhance the photo so you can see what I mean. You can see an entire 18 hole progression, but the back 9 holes look to be in a different hand, when compared with say holes 1-4, which are routed correctly.
Colt used roman numerals and simple numbers.
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It depends on how much money I had. If I was flush, Colt or Fowler. If I was broke, Braid.
Ciao
Sean
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Unlimited funds.
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Well in Oct 1912 Colt's proposed fees for Camberley Heath was 72 pounds 9 shillings.
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"I'll enhance the photo so you can see what I mean. You can see an entire 18 hole progression, but the back 9 holes look to be in a different hand, when compared with say holes 1-4, which are routed correctly."
Paul:
Thanks so much for that enlargement and enhancement. For the first time I can really see the progession of the way things probably evolved out there before Colt arrived.
I guess it's time to make some assumptions on what shows up on that stick routing to see how far it can takes us using various timelines and such from other things, like Tillinghast's reporting early on.
It seems to me the simple numbers on the greens would have to be Crump. The "G" alone looks like the way he used it for his first initial.
I think I'm beginning to see just why Colt's idea on #5 made such a difference to the routing! I also think there could be some real significance on the two placements of the green on #7. Apparently Crump placed it short and left first and then Colt drew it in the same place on the second topo and then they both apparently went back to where Crump probably initially had it which is where it is now. Why did they both probably do that? To make room for #8 I would say.
This is really great to be able to see this so clearly. Thanks so much for that. It's almost like it or they are beginning to talk to us somehow!
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"Well in Oct 1912 Colt's proposed fees for Camberley Heath was 72 pounds 9 shillings."
RT;
That's very interesting! What would that have amounted to---maybe around $250 US dollars?
Interesting then about the story that Crump paid Colt $10,000 about nine months later at PVGC. I guess Harry had sort of a different pay scale in the States, huh? ;)
Is it any wonder Finegan took that reported payment with a grain of salt, particularly as it was reported by a friend of Crump's almost 40 years after the fact?
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Tom
I'll blow the whole plan up for you and you'll be able to see pretty much everything.
I noticed the 7th too. It's not exactly the same as on the blue/red map but it is similar.
What do you make of the back 9 routing? It looks pretty strange to me...all those holes zig zagging up and down the ridge between 15th and the 12th/13th.
Do you think Crump had help on holes 1-4?
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"Tom
I'll blow the whole plan up for you and you'll be able to see pretty much everything."
Paul:
That'd be great. Now that I can see the numbers on the holes and particularly the contour lines better there're all kinds of things to be discovered, I think. For instance, it appears they brought #15 green site back and down some from the where Crump had it on the first routing plan. That'd make sense as #12 is a bit more left on the map than where Crump had the initial #10 whose place #12 sort of took on the map. If you blow the whole thing up for me I think I can come to a pretty good determination of how everything evolved before Colt arrived, while he was there and what Crump did after he left. We should be able to assign routing attribution pretty well in a day or two.
As of now I think the holes in a routing sense that are almost totally Colt's are #8, #9, #10, #11, and how #6 came into being as the par 4 it is after Colt came up with the plan for #5 which is so famously given to him as the key to unraveling the iterations that Crump was going through on the second half of the present front nine holes before he arrived. That #5 iteration of Colt's stopped Crump from going over the ridge past #9 green to a green site just to the right of the present 10th green for hole #6 and obviously later the iteration for #6 as a par 5 to the same green site as now that was reported by Tillinghast before Colt arrived.
Now that we can really see the details of what was assigned as holes at certain times and where they were (since we can now really see the contour lines and numbers) these maps are really starting to talk to us about what went on there when, why and by whom.
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Tom W.
With unlimited funds, I would have a go myself!
Ciao
Sean
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Paul Turner said;
“I don't think Crump's suicide detracts from him, in any way. But I would like to know why he did it.”
Paul: That’s not what I asked you. The question was not if Crump committed suicide do you think it detracted for him. This is the question I asked you and the question Wayne and I have asked Tom MacWood about ten times but he so far refuses to answer it on here. Again, this is the question I asked you;
“Let me ask you something else Paul. Since Tom MacWood is obviously dedicatedly avoiding answering our continuous questions about what he thinks the significance of a possible Crump suicide is to what that club has felt about Crump and Colt let me ask you if you think a possible Crump suicide has any significance in that vein and if so what would it be?”
I see you said you’d like to know why he did it. Did what? Simply died prematurely or committed suicide? Does that mean now you, like Tom MacWood, think you have proof Crump committed suicide? If you think you do have proof what is it? Last time Tom MacWood produced his “proof” it sort of evaporated into thin air when his source strenuously denied telling MacWood that he told him he had proof. This proof of a Crump suicide with you two has become like a ridiculous charade and you know it! If a Crump death certificate is produced and it says on it Crump died by a gunshot wound we’ll be more than happy to certainly admit that’s most definitely proof----but that DC has not been produced or even seen by either of you and neither of you can prove at this point what if anything it says on it. But we’ll get that DC in time. If it has "death by gunshot wound" on it we'll surely admit that's proof he committed suicide but if there's nothing on it about death by gunshot wound what are you two going to claim then----that the administering doctor at the time of Crump’s death was lying too to cover something up?
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TE
Relax. Paul has the same information that I (unfortunately) shared with you and Wayne. Once I get my ducks in a row I'll share the new information with you, Wayne and Paul....but not until that time. I frankly did a very poor job of insulating my sources the first go round....I won't being make that mistake again. Pateince.
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Tom,
I really regret belaboring this point. But, the sources we spoke to, some of whom you spoke to previously, couldn't care less that we called them to discuss the Crump matter. In fact, we had pleasant conversations though one of them was glad we didn't keep him on the phone for 2 hours ;) They didn't need to be insulated from us.
These guys have nothing to hide, especially the mayor and the judge. They were very upfront with us. Now, before you tell us that they fabricated their stories to us to protect themselves, I would consider that we conducted our conversations with them independently and both varified each other's conversations. Your recollection is decidedly different.
We'll get to the bottom of it. You may end up being right, but due to a random process and not due to material you've uncovered to date.
In any case, in your mind would the results or would they not have anything at all to do with the architectural attribution at PVGC? While we think the results would be interesting, they are surely disconnected from anything to do with conspiracies or club machinations of any kind having to do with glorifying Crump to anyone else's expense.
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"We'll get to the bottom of it. You may end up being right, but due to a random process and not due to material you've uncovered to date. "
Uh?
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" I frankly did a very poor job of insulating my sources the first go round....I won't being make that mistake again. Pateince.
Tom:
Thanks for the offer to supply whatever you think you have or can get. But patience? We can certainly get a copy of Crump's death certificate and will very likely do that. If his DC does say "death from gunshot wound" then your sense from what you've been told by the clerk of Merchantville was right and our sense of what we'e been told by the same man and others there is wrong and we will be more than willing to admit that.
We look at the manner in which Crump may've died, particularly if it was suicide, as merely a curiosity. What we are asking you now is if it turns out his DC says "death by gunshot wound" why you think that's of any significance to what he did at PVGC or what his friends and the club thought he did or said he did, particularly as it relates to whatever Colt did or how the club looks at that?
As for the clerk at Merchantville NJ, since he or his father, the judge, are the only ones there you spoke with, I hardly think you need to look at them as a source you need to protect. One of the jobs of the clerk of Merchantville NJ is to answer these kinds of questions from people. Anyone is free to call them for that kind of information and they're free to give it, is the way they explained it to me. He certainly didn't feel with us that there was something he could say about a 1918 death certificate that was illegal. All he wanted to know from us was why you were saying he told you something he believes he never said.
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Tom:
This failing to insulate a source thing of yours is pretty bizarre and even more amusing, frankly. What do you think you are---a reporter for the NY Times about to reveal the "Pentagon Papers"? ;)
And whatever source you have has nothing whatsoever to do with you answering our question of why you think it would have any bearing on PVGC's architecture, Crump's or Colt's part in it and how the membership felt about that IF Crump happened to have committed suicide.
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TE
When I see you so freely expose the identity of innocent bystanders on the Internet it makes me ill. I deeply regret ever sharing the info with you and Wayne.
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Tom Paul--given a lot of what I do revolves around currencies..
Actually, as of 1912, vs. now the pound was worth about 60-65 times more than then now.. So 72 quid was about $4300-$4600, still not $10,000 but much closer..
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Noel
Thank you, I was thinking in the region of $4500 myself.
Ciao
Sean
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"TE
When I see you so freely expose the identity of innocent bystanders on the Internet it makes me ill. I deeply regret ever sharing the info with you and Wayne."
Tom MacWood:
Have you lost your mind? This man whose name you gave me is the clerk of Merchantville township NJ. He's a politically appointed public official for God's sake. He's there to answer questions from the public about things in Merchantville township NJ. There's nothing remotely wrong with telling anyone about him or who he is---that's what he's there for. He's in the phone book for anyone to look up. Frankly, I called him and left a message for him about PVGC and Crump before I even spoke to you and before you gave me any names of anyone you spoke to about this. He said he was about to return my phone call the day I called him back. I got in touch with him by simply calling Merchantville NJ and asking who to talk to about a death certificate of a man who apparently died there 87 years ago by the name of George Crump. Then by coincidence I got his father, Merchantville's judge, on the phone because he has the same name.
These people aren't your sources, they're a source of information for this kind of thing for anyone who feels like calling them! What in the world do you think you are some kind of reporter or policeman doing some criminal investigation here? We don't need your help anyway. We know where to find Crump's death certificate and we'll get it.
All we're asking you is a simple question on golf architecture and PVGC and why you think it's significant to the membership of that course that the man who owned and built the course may have died of a gunshot wound 87 years ago---something you said on this site was a fact and that you could prove.
A simple question you refuse to answer on here that has nothing to do with any source at all, just why you have an opinion.
Frankly, what you should do is call the clerk of Merchantville back and explain to him why you said something he denies telling you. That's what he'd like you to do. And he isn't hiding from you or me or anyone else or trying to protect his identity. If someone wants to ask about the death certificate of a resident of Merchantville who died there he's the man to talk to.
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"Actually, as of 1912, vs. now the pound was worth about 60-65 times more than then now.. So 72 quid was about $4300-$4600, still not $10,000 but much closer.. "
But Noel, if 72 quid in 1912 is equivalent to $4500 or so today, how does this relate to what 72 quid was in relation to $10,000 in 1912 and what the $10,000 back then is equivalent to today?
Without knowing currencies like you do, I would certainly say that the $10,000 figure is not accurate.
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I had absolutely no idea an English pound in 1912 was 60-65 times a dollar! Maybe Crump paid the going rate to Colt in 1912 then. Afterall, Colt did spend a solid week or even two on site.
But still, $10,000 around 1912 was a little less than 1/4 of the cost to construct the entire course at Merion East in 1911-1912!
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Wayne/Tom-
I believe although I'd have to verify that the pound was rebased sometime in the war years. The $ has never been rebased--if you remember the UK almost went bust during WWII and also sterling was the main unit of exchange (the global reserve currency during the teens), not the $.
Remember back in those days, things were gold based. Also the Federal Reserve who is the implicit power behind the $ since Nixon took us off the gold standard did not exist until 1913.
Anyhoo, I have to check.
But perhaps you are right, $10,000 is a lot of greenbacks at that time from a purchasing power parity basis. Also, you must remember during the roaring 20s on Wall Street, ten grand wasnt that much money though for the Gatsby generation. Inflation has probably eroded about 95% of the value of the $ from the teens.
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In 1913 you could easily buy a nice estate home with several acres in suburban Philadelphia for $10,000. But I guess for what Fazio, Nicklaus and others charge today for their design services, the same applies; and they don't stay on site for a week straight ;)
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The only apparent source of the rumored $10,000 payment from Crump to Colt reputedly came from Crump's friend Joe Bole forty years after the fact. As far as I know there's no accounting at PVGC or from Crump's account or his estate that a fee like that was paid. And as far as I can tell no one from Colt's side has ever been able to verify it. That would seem sort of odd since someone on here just stated it's apparently verifiable that Colt charged Camberley Heath 72 quid 9 shillings for design work on that course.
Of course just the fact of this post of mine alone is probably going to get the two ultra-Colt advocates on here screaming bloody murder that this is just another example of the on-going PVGC or "Philadelphia School" campaign to glorify George Crump and the expense of Harry Colt! ;)
Of course asking our two ultra-Colt advocates to prove that $10,000 payment to Colt is not something I'm going to do because asking them to prove something is not working very well to date! All I seem to get so far in that attempt is that ducks are not all in a row yet or that I'm making one of them ill by revealing his sources and injuring innocent bystanders! ;)
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On the sauce a bit early today TEP?
We know of a payment to Colt at CHeath and so therefore we should know his fee at PV. That's great logic ::) I have to rely on graft for my research. An entire company's records didn't luckily fall in my lap...unlike for some here ;)
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"We know of a payment to Colt at CHeath and so therefore we should know his fee at PV. That's great logic I have to rely on graft for my research. An entire company's records didn't luckily fall in my lap...unlike for some here>
Paul:
Don't know that I was referring to just you. Looks like somebody else reported that payment about Camberley Heath. One never knows what kind of information may come back on GOLFCLUBATLAS over the World Wide Internet and from whom, or would you be the only one for anyone to contact about Colt? Do you think Crump paid Colt $10,000 for PVGC? Does that sound to you like a reasonable sum for an architect's fee in 1913 for a guy for one week, never to return---for some shared lines on a topo map and a booklet of hole drawings? What even was a reasonable assumption of the cost to construct a good golf course in that year? Piper and Oakley asked that question of Hugh Wilson and he reported to them that Merion East cost $45,000 to construct.
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TE
What was the going rate for architects of Colt's stature in 1913?
Merion cost $45,000? How much do you estimate PV cost?
Regarding Crump's payment and Colt's lone visit, do you think Crump foresaw Arch Duke Ferdinand getting knocked off?
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“TE
What was the going rate for architects of Colt's stature in 1913?”
That’s a good question, and one I was hoping the two Colt experts on here (Tom MacWood and Paul Turner) could help with about Colt himself in and around 1913. But it was an RT (Russell Talley?) who reported on here that Colt’s fee was 72 quid 9 shillings in 1912 for Camberley Heath so I guess that gives us some idea. But I don’t know what Colt did for Camberley Heath, do you? Did he route and design the course and oversee the course’s construction for the duration or did he help someone route it and leave a hole by hole booklet behind after being there for one week never to return, as he did at PVGC?
”Merion cost $45,000? How much do you estimate PV cost?”
I should clarify that. Hugh or Alan Wilson reported to Piper and Oakley that Merion East cost approximately $45,000 to actually construct the golf course but of course that pertained only to the so-called “initial construction phase" from app April 1911 until Sept 1911 when the course was seeded and left for one year to grow in before opening for play in Sept 1912. Merion East was changed architecturally a good deal in the next 20 years before it was considered to be what they were looking for---after which time it has been little changed architecturally.
How much do I estimate PVGC cost to construct? That’s pretty hard to say since no one has really compiled that estimate that I know of. I might estimate it cost something like $300,000 over its app ten year construction phase as there’re a few reports that estimate Crump may’ve put more than $250,000 of his own money into the course but that probably included the cost of land in two purchases--and it may also include the buildings such as the clubhouse and dorm house. And frankly, that fact alone, the ten-year construction phase, is a great example of what I’ve been trying to explain to you and Paul Turner for about two years now that neither of you seem to get or appreciate or are willing to acknowledge! That indicates to me what Crump’s personal efforts on that golf course, particularly architecturally, were all about. This is one of the clearest indications he was doing what HE wanted to do there architecturally, altering things constantly and taking his sweet time finishing the golf course by constant change, and when he died suddenly in 1918 he still hadn't finished the golf course architecturally! If Crump had wanted to simply construct that golf course architecturally to Harry Colt’s routing or hole by hole design plan he probably could’ve done that in about six months and then opened the TOTAL course for play as Merion East had done two years previous. But he didn’t do that, he opened it in stages and the course didn't open all 18 holes until 1922.
And following its initial opening Merion East basically took 20 years to complete. This is obviously something you fail to understand correctly about the two centerpieces of the Philadelphia School of Architecture---PVGC and Merion East. This is one of the reasons I don’t think you analyze some architecture very well!!
”Regarding Crump's payment and Colt's lone visit, do you think Crump foresaw Arch Duke Ferdinand getting knocked off?”
Wow!! I’m getting a bit concerned about you Tom! I wouldn’t even want to hazard a guess where you think you’re going now with a question like that!
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Now Tom MacW---after asking you about a dozen times, do you think perhaps you could muster up an opinion of why you think PVGC and all Crump's friends and perhaps the entire Philadelphia golf region decided to glorify Crump and minimize Colt simply because he committed suicide? Not just that but to also instantly construct some "cover-up" story about poison from an abscess tooth!
Or are you just going to continue to respond and continue to deflect that question by asking my "off-the-wall" questions like the one about Archduke Ferdinand?
After-all you have stated a number of times that you think a possible Crump suicide was very significant. I'm assuming by that you mean architecturally significant because that certainly is what you've heretofore been implying on here.
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I think Tom MacWood is about to blow the cover on a 90 year conspiracy and that is.....drumroll please......Archduke Ferdinand was not assassinated by a crazed Serb but actually blew his own brains out. He talked to the local clerk and was told of the true cause of death ;D Of course that clerk now does not admit to ever telling TMc anything like that.
From the 1912 Annual Meeting of the Merion Cricket Club:
Property Acquisition $94,969.09
Boundary Road $5,772.91
Course Construction $44,977.63
Incorporation Expense $487.27
House Construction $35,000.00
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Wayne, whatever you do---DO NOT call the clerk of Serbiaville and ask him if he told Tom MacWood that Archduke Ferdinand blew his brains out and that he has seen his DC that proves it! We certianly wouldn't want to make Tom MacW ill again and compromise innocent bystanders in Middle Europe on the Internet!
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I learned my lesson, Tom. Gotta be careful of those innocent bystanders--an historian must protect his sources from the likes of us ;D
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Tom
"A few shared lines"...that's a succinct way of belittling a man's routing skills!
The bottom line is that, in terms of routing, the course is as Colt drew in 1913 for 85-90% of the course. No matter how long it took Crump to complete the job.
Read the routing thread recently posted. It's the art of getting the whole course routed that is the toughest. Not finding a few great holes.
I don't have Finengan's book to hand, but I did read somwhere that Crump spent $6k on a couple of greens.
Regarding Camberley Heath. It was a full design and supervision course by Colt. I'm not sure about that 72 quid figure, whether it was full payment or a final installment. RT is looking into that for me.
Camberley Heath was a famously expensive project.
A question for you Tom:
How different would PV be if Crump hadn't hired Colt?
Looking at the stick diagram and Crump's hand, I conclude that PV would have been much different and considerably worse.
Stylistically, I believe the course could have been quite different too. But that is difficult to prove. We know Tillie mentioned "Mid Surrey Mounds". Colt was the pioneer for the natural look. He published a large article on "The Construction of New Courses" where he emphasises the natural. And I can prove that he took photos of St George's Hill, to the US/Canada, to get his ideas across.
Do you think Crump routed 1-4 alone, or was he helped?
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TE
The going rate for an architect of Colt's repuation would range between $1000 and $2000, which would include "the general supervision which the Architect will give to the work is such periodical inspections by him or his deputy as may be necessry to ensure that the work is being carried out to his intentions, but constant superintendence of the work does not form part of the duties undertaken by him, and is not included for in the following scale of charges..."
In my estimation Colonel Baker was off by a zero.
$45,000 vs $300,000...Merion vs PV...that's like comparing apples and oranges.
Colt traveled to N.America in 1911/12 and again in 1913. Crump had every reason to believe that Colt would return again when he paid his fee. Unfortunately all hell broke loose when Ferdinand was assassinated. Ironically his deputy did return in the form of Alison (not to mention another visit or two by Reginald Beale).
Did Crump and Colt communicate after his visit in 1913?
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Perhaps Baker was equating the $10K in terms of when he wrote the report.
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Paul
I'm wrong about the $1000/$2000 figure....I miss read it.
The way Colt (and others) got paid was a percentage of the estimated cost of the project. If the work exceeded £2000, the Architect's fee would be 6% of the total cost (plus all traveling and hotel expenses). If the estimated cost was less than £2000, the percentage would be 10% plus expenses. From what I have gathered the PV project was estimated to cost between $50,000 and $150,000. Considering the distance perhaps Col. Baker was correct.
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Back to the original question:
Lets list who had done what by 1913, I can do HSC from memory but not others:
So for Colt, the major courses were :
Rye (as it was)
Stoke Poges
Swinley Forest
Toronto (Canada's first great course, I think)
Detroit
St George's Hill
Camberley Heath
Major redos of:
Sunningdale Old (50% of the course roughly)
Woodhall Spa
Fowler/Simpson, I don't know, without a reference book. Tillie? Park?
Mack would have been:
Alwoodley
Moortown
Any other big projects?
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Go back - just one year. Where was the 1912 U.S. Open played? Who won? and who designed that course?
Hint: Today it is a public course that anyone can play for less than $15, and it is in upstate NY.
NOTE: I am not talking about Blackpage.
Old Dale
(In State College PA)
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Tom Macwood,
You wrote, "The way Colt (and others) got paid was a percentage of the estimated cost of the project. If the work exceeded £2000, the Architect's fee would be 6% of the total cost (plus all traveling and hotel expenses). If the estimated cost was less than £2000, the percentage would be 10% plus expenses."
May I ask how you arived at that blanket generality?
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"The bottom line is that, in terms of routing, the course is as Colt drew in 1913 for 85-90% of the course. No matter how long it took Crump to complete the job."
Paul:
I really don't know if you're blind, just don't know that course very well or you're such a Harry Colt advocate you just can't bring yourself to face facts.
For starters the routing of #1-4---and in my opinion, #6 (although numbered #8), #7, #17 (although moved to the right slightly) and #18 are Crump before Colt first arrived in Pine Valley. Most every one of them was described while clearing by Tillinghast before Colt arrived and that's the way they are today.
I sure wouldn't call that 85-90% of the routing Colt drew.
Then you have to add to that number #13, #14 that certainly aren't Colt. The way Colt drew #12 is about a 400 yard straight away hole with a drive right over the ridge. That's not what it is today and the 15th tee he has on the other side of the lake.
Crump's #15th hole on that stick routing in the super's office was from a tee in about the middle of the present hole to a green that appears to be almost exactly where #11 green is today. His #16 goes from a tee to the right side of that green to a green site about where #16 green is now but that hole on the original stick routing was a very long par 5!! Crump's #11, 12, 13 and 14 on that stick routing are nothing like they are now, although his original 10th isn't far off of what #12 is now---at least the tee appears in the same place. #13, #14 are the ones developed well after Colt left.
The holes that really appear to be undeniably Colt in the sense of being very different from anything Crump came up on that stick routing either in basic direction or use of landform (tee or green placement) are #5, #8, #9, #10, #11.
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Phil
Colt, MacKenzie and Alison's scale of professional charges and conditions of agreement...which follow the scale created by Royal Institute of British Architects. Why?
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"A question for you Tom:
How different would PV be if Crump hadn't hired Colt?"
Paul:
That's a pointless question! I can't determine something that never happened. I could just as easily ask you the same kind of pointless question by asking;
How different would PV be if Colt had been hired by someone other than Crump?
You asked:
"Do you think Crump routed 1-4 alone, or was he helped?"
On that the only source I've seen is Tillinghast who seems to say Crump in what he wrote before Colt arrived. But who really knows since Tom MacWood says Tillinghast sold out his architectural principles and Tom MacWood obviously thinks Tillinghast was lying or involved in some type of campaign to glorify Crump at the expense of Colt when he wrote immediately following his good friend Crump's death;
"The death of Mr. George A. Crump has shocked Philadelphia golfers beyond expression. The end came suddenly on the morning of January 24th when an abscess found its way to his brain." (the identical description we have from Hugh Wilson in a letter to Piper days after Crump's death, by the way).
Either Tom MacWood thinks an abscess is the same thing as a bullet or he must think A.W. Tillinghast does!
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"Perhaps Baker was equating the $10K in terms of when he wrote the report. "
Right Paul! I can just see about an 85 year old man on his last legs 40 years after the fact in the early 1950s calling a bank, getting an inflation adjustment back to 1913, getting out his calcalculator and figuring the payment out in current dollars! ;)
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"$45,000 vs $300,000...Merion vs PV...that's like comparing apples and oranges."
Tom MacW:
Perhaps you should go back and read exactly what I said about that and maybe you wouldn't think so. First of all Piper asked Wilson for construction costs, no more. Nobody that I know of has ever tried to break down exactly what PVGC's singled out architectural construction cost was. All I know is approximately what Crump put into the course, land purchase and construction of what he did there, and money that may've been raised while he was alive but certainly after he died.
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"The way Colt (and others) got paid was a percentage of the estimated cost of the project. If the work exceeded £2000, the Architect's fee would be 6% of the total cost (plus all traveling and hotel expenses). If the estimated cost was less than £2000, the percentage would be 10% plus expenses. From what I have gathered the PV project was estimated to cost between $50,000 and $150,000. Considering the distance perhaps Col. Baker was correct."
Tom:
I really don't quite know what to make of your logic! That's just preposterous!
Do you really think Crump's going to agree to see this fellow Harry Colt for one single week in his life, continue to work on that golf course himself everyday for the next five years with a slew of other friends and collaborators and then when perhaps he's finished almost 10 years later, having spent God knows how much of his money doing thngs himself out there turn around and pay Harry Colt 6% of what the entire project cost him?
I found a letter recently from someone not connected to PVGC intimating that Harry Colt may've been called to Seaview and Merion at that same time he came down here from Canada, perhaps the one and only time he was ever here. Maybe he got paid $10,000 for his entire North American trip!
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With unlimited funds, I'd get Colt and pay him what was required to have him spend at least two extended periods of a couple of months each on the site. My selection is based on getting a great archie that is not as prolific in the nation of the site. If the site was in my homeland of Australia, that brings the Tilly option into play as well. Knowing what a 1913er would have known, many other candidates have not yet stood out as much as they did 10-20 years later.
There were comments earlier about brief visits, or the Golden Age version of something little more than a mail in. This is not as large a concern as the team involved on the site. A top archie without his A team would provide a lesser course, wheras the same archie with only days to spare and then a great team would increase the quality chances. Mackenzie in Australia is an excellent example of this.
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"May I ask how you arived at that blanket generality?"
Phil:
I was sort of hoping you wouldn't ask him that because he's probably going to tell you the clerk of St Amands in England just told him in a phone call yesterday just after telling him it's illegal to give him that information but is doing it anyway because although he's never heard of this fellow from Ohio he sounds like such a great researcher, and that they got to talking about building architecture, the great old arts and Crafts movement in England in the late 1800s and stuff like that and the clerk just got softened up enough to break the law with info to a total stranger! ;)
Oh sorry, he told us he's not revealing these sources any longer because if someone exposes his source it makes him ill and injures innocent bystanders.
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Paul Turner said yesterday;
“On the sauce a bit early today TEP?
We know of a payment to Colt at CHeath and so therefore we should know his fee at PV? That's great logic I have to rely on graft for my research. An entire company's records didn't luckily fall in my lap...unlike for some here.”
And then Tom MacWood weighs in with:
“The way Colt (and others) got paid was a percentage of the estimated cost of the project. If the work exceeded £2000, the Architect's fee would be 6% of the total cost (plus all traveling and hotel expenses). If the estimated cost was less than £2000, the percentage would be 10% plus expenses. From what I have gathered the PV project was estimated to cost between $50,000 and $150,000.”
Paul:
Who’s “we”? You and Tom MacWood? Perhaps you should just ask Tom MacWood these details. Although you once said there may be no one who knows more about Colt than you do apparently you’ve got quite a bit to learn about the business arrangements of Harry Colt from Tom MacWood! You don't need business records dropped in your lap if you have a Colt researcher like him! :)
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"Do you really think Crump's going to agree to see this fellow Harry Colt for one single week in his life, continue to work on that golf course himself everyday for the next five years with a slew of other friends and collaborators and then when perhaps he's finished almost 10 years later, having spent God knows how much of his money doing thngs himself out there turn around and pay Harry Colt 6% of what the entire project cost him?"
TE
6% of the estimated cost. No pay; no plan. When Crump engaged Colt (1913), neither man knew the War would prevent Colt from returning. Ironically his deputy (Alison) did eventually return (not mention at least one visit by Reginald Beale in 1914).
Your emotional ties to the legend of Crump and PV seemed to have gotten the best of you and your better judgment.
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"TE
6% of the estimated cost. No pay; no plan. When Crump engaged Colt (1913), neither man knew the War would prevent Colt from returning. Ironically his deputy (Alison) did eventually return (not mention at least one visit by Reginald Beale in 1914)."
Oh I see, Tom; now you're beginning to rationalize that Colt was returning to PVGC and Archduke Ferdinand put the scotch on that plan! You're probably assuming that as a way of rationalizing that $10,000 payment story. Where did you hear about that $10,000 payment to Colt Tom?
"Your emotional ties to the legend of Crump and PV seemed to have gotten the best of you and your better judgment."
I don't deny I love PVGC but I think despite that I have a lot better and clearer judgement about it and what happened there than someone who's never even laid eyes on it!
"Ironically his deputy (Alison) did eventually return (not mention at least one visit by Reginald Beale in 1914)."
Alison returned to Pine Valley? Gee, I didn't know that!
Yes he did, a little over three years after Crump died to make improvements on various things that weren't playing very well and to make recommendations to finish the four still to be completed holes. I believe I've listed in pretty specific detail what Alison did in 1921. Do you think Alison would've returned and made these recommendations if Crump had still be alive? Do you think he would've paid him $10,000 or did he return so the firm of Colt and Alison could fulfill the work they owed PVGC since Archduke Ferndinand prevented them from returning for eight years?
Reginald Beale? What did he do in 1914, perfect the routing of the back nine for Crump? Or was he the guy who designed the short course that Fazio found 75 years later and reused?
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TE
I'm sure you're aware of the Great War that began in 1914...it was in all the papers. :)
During the War Colt's design activities came to a hault. He became Deputy Commissioner for the Soutwest District Ministry of Food and Justice of the Peace for Berkshire.
You should be proud of PV and Crump, but I sometimes wonder if your emotional investement in the legend might affect your judgement at times.
Did Crump and Colt communicate after his visit in 1913?
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"TE
I'm sure you're aware of the Great War that began in 1914...it was in all the papers."
Yep, I actually heard about that one too Tom. I've even heard about that big boat---what was it called? Oh yeah, the Titanic! Do you think Harry was on his way to America on that and just swam the rest of the way? :)
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"During the War Colt's design activities came to a hault. He became Deputy Commissioner for the Soutwest District Ministry of Food and Justice of the Peace for Berkshire."
Isn't that interesting! Does that prove to you that Harry was coming back to PVGC but just could seem to find a ride? ;)
"You should be proud of PV and Crump, but I sometimes wonder if your emotional investement in the legend might affect your judgement at times."
I realize you feel that way, but frankly it's just BS and you know it. Well, most people know it but maybe you don't. The reason you say things like that is I have a ton more information on the place than you, I've know it well for 25 years and frankly there's no subsitute for that. And I'm not some blind advocate of any architect like you seem to be with Colt.
"Did Crump and Colt communicate after his visit in 1913?"
I don't really know, do you? Why don't you ask Paul Turner? Apparently Crump sent Colt photographs of PVGC that he turned into a photo album or something like that. I do know that the Wilson's were members and very close to PVGC from the beginning and in 1920 Colt wrote Wilson a letter about agronomy in which he asked Wilson if he remembered him. That doesn't sound like particularly close contact to PVGC to me but maybe it does to you.
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I don't believe Crump was an imprudent man....yes, when he engaged Colt, I believe he expected him to return. Colt did so when he was involved with other N. American projects in 1911/12.
Those would be the photos taken by the famous NY photographer Harold Strohmeyer...personal photographer of Theodore Roosevelt.
Was it Alan or Hugh Wilson...did he remember Colt?
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Tom,
You answered my question with about Colt's pay with, "Colt, MacKenzie and Alison's scale of professional charges and conditions of agreement...which follow the scale created by Royal Institute of British Architects. Why?"
The reason I asked this is because at that time, teens and twenties, American architects were negotiating their pay on a per course basis.
For example, in the early twenties, just a short time after finishing Baltusrol and being at the height of his fame, and therefor ability to demand commission for work, Tillinghast's contract for doing two courses at Baltimore's Five Farms (the second course was cancelled later) states this:
“My minimum fee for eighteen holes is Three thousand dollars. I see nothing to warrant any addition to this and consequently I will agree to make detailed plans for thirty-six holes… acting in a general advisory capacity until both courses are ready for play, visiting the grounds from time to time as may be necessary to produce courses which will be satisfactory to you and myself, for six thousand dollars and expenses incidental to travel and lodging…”
This is after stating that, "While it is difficult to estimate accurately the probable cost of construction, I am of the opinion that it will not exceed one hundred thousand dollars each…”
At $3,000 per course, and with each one estimated at approximately $100,000, Tilly was looking at getting paid at the rate of 3% of the project value. Often he was getting far less than this, and he was among the most prolific of designers.
I am not personally aware of the facts of what PV cost and who got paid what, but I felt that the percentages didn't make sense based upon what I know about Tillinghast. I would think that Crump, as a businessman of the day, would be well aware of what the average architectural fees were in his day.
I may be assuming incorrectly on this, and if so, would like to get the general facts & those specific to Pine Valley correct.
Thanks
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"I don't believe Crump was an imprudent man....yes, when he engaged Colt, I believe he expected him to return."
I'm not sure what you think prudence has to do with it. From reports coming out of practically the entire world of architectue during the five year construction period during his life that Crump worked on that course almost daily it seems things were coming along just fine without Colt needing to return or being asked to. If Crump needed his help I'm fairly certain Crump was capable of writing him and asking any question that need be asked.
But, in my opinion, that wouldn't have been likely! I guess you're not that familiar with the "remembrances" of Carr and Smith on which the 1921 Committee tried to base their decision-making. It seems that Crump had some pretty elaborate plans to change a couple of the five or so holes I believe really were Colt's sole conceptions. And there certainly is at least one notable thing that shows up on the topos and from quotes from those close to Crump where he definitely over-ruled Colt.
"Was it Alan or Hugh Wilson...did he remember Colt?"
I believe it was Hugh. It wasn't a letter from Colt I have--it's a letter from Wilson to Piper or Oakley mentioning the letter from Colt.
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"I may be assuming incorrectly on this, and if so, would like to get the general facts & those specific to Pine Valley correct."
Phil:
As far as that $10,000 fee from Colt you should know according to Jim Finegan who wrote the latest history book on PVGC that that fee was first heard of in the 1950s (40 years after the fact) from Crump's old friend Joe Bole (the man he went to Europe with in 1910 to study architecture, among other things). There is no actual accounting at PVGC or from Crump's side on a $10,000 design fee to Colt. As far as I can tell no one who knows a lot about Colt has ever heard of that either. I guess he paid him something but there certainly were a number of other professional architects around who collaborated at PVGC and didn't get paid. These would include Travis, Tillinghast, Toomey and Flynn and Perry Maxwell! Of course there were the usual well-known amateur architects contributing too such as Thomas, Fownes and possibly even Macdonald.
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Phil
Fowler charged 6% at LACC as well. MacKenzie going rate was 10%! :o
Hermitage was constructed for a total cost of $4,000, Tilly's fee was $1000 or a whopping 25%.
TE
"I'm not sure what you think prudence has to do with it. From reports coming out of practically the entire world of architectue during the five year construction period during his life that Crump worked on that course almost daily it seems things were coming along just fine without Colt needing to return or being asked to. If Crump needed his help I'm fairly certain Crump was capable of writing him and asking any question that need be asked."
I agree.
I know Alan Wilson was a member of PV, was Hugh Wilson?
Are you referring to a comment over the 2nd hole?
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"I know Alan Wilson was a member of PV, was Hugh Wilson?"
Hugh Wilson was a green chairman there!
"Are you referring to a comment over the 2nd hole?"
Tom, a whole lot more than that. Instead of just asking me endless questions about PVGC why don't you study those topos and all the other available material by just trying to get to PVGC at some point and study the course and it's creation? Without doing that some day you're never really going to figure this stuff out.
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Tom,
You wrote, "Hermitage was constructed for a total cost of $4,000, Tilly's fee was $1000 or a whopping 25%."
That really proves the point I was driving at. Each course design was a separate negotiation and not based upon a set percentage.
By the way, could you send me the information & sources for the Hermitage (Belmont Park) Tillinghast info? I am certain that
the Tillinghast association would enjoy putting it into their archives. They are actively seeking any info on any of his courses so that a true archive that can be made available to researchers interested in Tilly will have a place to go.
Are you aware of any other Tillinghast design contracts that work out to these type of percentages.
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TE
Thanks. I'll take that under advisement. :)
"Are you aware of any other Tillinghast design contracts that work out to these type of percentages."
Phil
No not really, but weren't we talking about Colt and PV?
The Hermitage source is their club history and it does not mention a percentage, that was my calculation. I understand your point.
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Phil:
As a sales tool it seems many of the earlier architects such as Mackenzie and Hunter and others spoke of the cost efficiencies of hiring a professional architect. Basically their message was a club would save money with a professional architect by simply avoiding costly mistakes.
Some of them even plied a theme they referred to as "finality" which meant the courses designed and built by a professional architect were much less likely to be changed later by a club (thereby ultimately saving money!). Max Behr ultimately referred to this as "permanent architecture?
"Founders of clubs are often deterred from calling a first class architect because they think he may be expensive. An architect's fee is often less than a hundreth part of the total capital expenditure, and surely this is a small sum to pay for the assurance of perpetual prosperity."
Alister Mackenzie
"The Spirit of St Andrews"
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Phil;
PVGC under the direction of George Crump was probably somewhat of a different case and perhaps not easily or appropriately compared to the design and construction of other courses.
First of all, the extent of architectural collaboration at PVGC was probably never remotely matched on another course in the history of golf. Secondly, although parts of the course were opened sequentially, there's no question at all that Crump was very much taking his time completing the course. A number of holes were not completed almost 8 years after the construction began and it's undeniable that Crump had sometimes rather elaborate plans to go back and change a number of holes that had been opened for play. Hence his well-known response when asked when he might finally complete the course---eg "NEVER!" (one of the true ironies of the #1 course in the world is there is (and was for quite some time) a lot about it still today that Crump himself considered to be "temporary"!!).
Why was that (the unique extent of architectural collaboratin)? Probably a lot of it had to do with a unique aspect of the original "Philadelphia School of architecture", at least how it centered around the creation of PVGC. Most of those Philly School" architects were amateur architects anyway (Crump, Wilson, Thomas, Fownes) who never took a dime for anything they did in architecture.
A good deal of this perhaps had to do with questions of amateur status around the time of PVGC's creation---a problem that eventually effected Tillinghast and Travis.
One should realize that the so-called professional architects in and around that time---eg Tillinghast, Travis, Toomey, Flynn, or even later Perry Maxwell who did architectural work there later apparently were not paid by Crump or later PVGC. Basically they appear to have been Crump's friends and did it for that reason or were simply made members as were Toomey, Flynn and Perry Maxwell!
Did PVGC ever pay an architect? Perhaps. We've heard of this payment to Colt in 1913 although the amount of it and the source of the information of it certainly has been questioned. Did they pay Alison for his work in 1921? Perhaps. The estimated cost of doing his recommendations that were approved by the 1921 Advisory Committee was $6,500 to which a $1,000 fee would be added for Alison that included his 'superinetendency'. The matter went to the board for approval but it doesn't appear that Alison did that 'superintendency'---it appeared it was done by William Flynn, Merion (the Wilson), "in-house" with Jim Govan (the pro, superintendent and Crump's constant on-site foreman and "shot tester") perhaps with the assistance of member George Thomas who apparently returned from the West Coast and some of the recommendations or alterations were later carried out by Perry Maxwell who stated he would not charge the club for any architectural work he did there (he was a member).
(It even appears that to this day that ''no-fee" architectural collaboration continues at PVGC. Tom Fazio, Rees Jones, Ben Crenshaw, at least, belong to the club (and I've certainly seen Pete Dye there socially) and it appears no professional architectural fees have ever been asked or charged by any of them. Matter of fact, Tom Fazio is on the board of directors of PVGC!)
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One of the most obvious questions involving all this massive architectural collaboration at PVGC involving Crump, Tillinghast, Travis, perhaps MacDonald, Flynn (Toomey), Thomas, Fownes, Wilson, and perhaps others is why if all that talent was around did Crump hire (presumably to pay) Colt in 1913 and why did the club hire (presumably to pay) Alison in 1921, three years after Crump died?
I think the answer to that question can best be seen by simply stripping everything we know today about all those architects (excluding Colt and Alison) that came after the times we're looking at (1913 and 1921) and put the way they were all looked at by others and even amongst themselves in the complete context of only those two times (Colt in 1913 and Alison in 1921) and definitely not our own, or at any time AFTER those two times.
If looked at in that context it obviously made sense to Crump to hire Colt in 1913 and for the 1921 Advisory Committee to hire Alison almost three years after Crump's death (1921). Were Tillinghast, Thomas, Fownes, Wilson, Flynn the famous architects in 1913 they are today? Of course not. Were they the famous architects in 1921 they’d later become? No! Did that mean all of them didn’t have talent in 1913 or 1921? No!
Does the fact that Crump hired Colt in 1913 in any way preclude or minimize what Crump himself did on that course either before Colt arrived or most particularly in the 4-5 years after Colt left? Of course not---the record is pretty clear and getting clearer everyday on that score. And that, to me is the real fascination and the really interesting story behind the creation of PVGC. Because Crump was a novice in 1913 did that mean he didn’t have real talent? No! Does the fact that he managed to do all that he did at PVGC in those 5-6 years he was there almost constantly explain why he was so respected and perhaps glorified when he died suddenly? It sure does to me---and that’s most of the fascination of PVGC and Crump, in my opinion---and I believe the club and numerous others everywhere feel the same way. Should any of that be seen as in some way minimizing Colt or Alison’s part? Not to me.
Obviously, in 1912 and 1913 Crump was a rank amateur, a novice in golf architecture with no reputation for it at all. He’d done nothing before other than go to Europe obviously to study architectural principles. Did he get that idea from Macdonald? I’ve never seen anything to that effect other than he was obviously aware of NGLA and he knew Macdonald at the very least from the Lesley Cups. Did Hugh Wilson influence him to go to Europe to study? I doubt that as they went almost at the same time, certainly not together (had they been close friends that might’ve seemed a natural) and it doesn’t look to me like Hugh Wilson and George Crump were all that close friends!
But we know now pretty clearly what Crump did at PVGC before Colt ever arrived, and I think we’re getting very close to understanding what he was doing with that course in the 4-5 years after Colt left----and one thing he most certainly was NOT doing is simply telling his crews to construct that golf course specifically to Colt’s topo routing or hole by hole booklet. If that’s what he was doing or some on here think he was doing then that course most definitely would’ve been opened and ready to play in about a year or a little more and in effect Crump’s job would’ve been done and he would’ve probably just been happy to play it. But that didn’t remotely happen.
I say this as a way of explaining that the club, PV, and it’s members and Crump’s friends did not remotely try to minimize Colt or Alison in what they did there. Those people were simply recognizing what Crump had done. (the minimizing of what Colt and Alison did came years later in the history books basically only as a result of some research mistakes—and certainly one significant one being completely innocent). I’ve said many times to Paul Turner and Tom MacWood that the club and its members have always had real respect for Harry Colt, even in many cases (members) feeling he was responsible for more there than he actually was. In a word and generally, they feel Colt was considered one of the very best in the world and admire him for that and are in fact proud he had to do with PVGC at all. Of course Paul Turner, many times on here has said that I must be nuts to think that---despite the fact I know probably a hundred or more members of that club that feel that way.
I wish I could say the same for Hugh Alison. Apparently what he did for the club in 1921 and what is today on the course because of him is perhaps the least known significant thing about the course compared to what Crump/Colt/Tillinghast/Flynn (Thomas)/Wilson/Govan/Maxwell/Fazio did there.
But it seems to me that some such as Turner and MacWood seem to think that Crump didn’t do various things at PVGC either before Colt got there, perhaps while he was there and most definitely after he left simply because he couldn’t have! It seems to be as if they think he in fact almost had to rely on Colt. I don’t think so. I think what he did both before, probably during and certainly after Colt, is the single reason why Crump himself became so respected by all who knew of him. Would the course be the same as it is today without Colt or Alison (or Flynn (Thomas), Wilson, Fownes, Tillinghast, Travis, Macdonald, Maxwell, Fazio et al)? Of course not. But the point is without Crump the course would probably be almost nothing like it is today. And that’s the real point, in my opinion, of PVGC and its interesting and long-term creation!
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TE
How famous was Colt in the United States in 1913? If Crump needed a famous name why not invite Macdonald to lend his name to the project a la Merion. Macdonald was a much bigger name in the States, and the NGLA was the premier course in the country.
Why did Crump need a big name? I haven't seen any evidence PV was having difficulty attracting members, just the opposite.
Alison wasn't exactly a house hold name in 1921 either. He had been a club secretary before WWI. It appears to me the reason they hired Alison was the same reason they did just about every thing after Crump's death...there was great effort to follow his wishes, and one can presume they believed bringing back Colt & Co. would have been Crump's wish.
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"If Crump needed a famous name why not invite Macdonald to lend his name to the project a la Merion."
I don't agree with your premise that Merion wanted Macdonald to lend his name to the new course at Merion. What makes you think this is true? Wilson judiciously sought his advice but do you really think they sought to have his name associated with the project?
Is it because Wilson spoke of the valuable advice he got at Macdonald's bungalow at NGLA before heading overseas? How about Macdonald's visit to see how things were coming along at Merion where he agreed with the work being done?
Or are you once again concluding that Macdonald and Whigham were brought in to lend their names and expertise to the new course because they were incapable of doing it on their own and that they needed a famous name?
I think it is absurd to think that Merion needed a famous name. What they needed was sound advise, not a name. Likewise, I don't think Crump needed a name, he wished for some advise.
The Merion membership was growing at an enormous pace requiring a new course and in fact a second one immediately after. In your mind, was Macdonald's name, that was or was not commonly associated with the project, responsible for this? I don't think the membership knew of or cared about Macdonald but rather the finished project.
In what way do you think architects were regarded by memberships in this time period in America or the UK for that matter? My assumption would be that it mattered not at all. These architects were not famous. They may be today, but I would guess that they were not in their day outside a very small circle of people.
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Tom MacWood:
Where did I say Crump or PVGC NEEDED a big name? Where do you get this stuff. All I said is in my opinion the members I know at Pine Valley who know about Colt consider that he was probably one of the very best professional architects in the world at that time. Those who know the modus operandi of the early Philly amateur architects, particularly Crump and Wilson know they went to Europe to study architecture and its principles in Scotland and particularly the English Heathlands. Where was Colt from? The Heathlands. They both obviously saw the Heathland courses including his.
I don't think we need to make too much out of all this. Apparently some around the Delaware Valley (Seaview, Merion East and PVGC perhaps even Sunnybrook heard Colt was in Canada or was going to be there and probably just got him down here because of that). When architects such as Maxwell, or RTJ or even Fazio were around here at various times various clubs found out about it and called on them if they felt they needed something or some advice. That's probably just the way it went at PVGC in 1913 too, and perhaps with Alison in 1921.
I just noticed in one of the "agronomy letters" that in Nov or Dec of 1920 Hugh Wilson was at PVGC with Alison. Alison wanted to know about various agronomy issues from Piper and Oakley and arranged to go down to Washington and meet with them and with Flynn. Shortly thereafter Alison even proposed that he form a partnership with Flynn.
There was a lot of collaboration going on in those days, particularly in Philadelphia.
Macdonald? I cant see that Crump exactly took to Macdonald. It may've been Macdonald who coigned the term "Crump's Folly" for PVGC. He came down to look at it early and said his famous; "It could be a great golf course if Crump could figure out how to get grass to grown there" (pretty much straight sand). I guess Macdonald knew whereof he spoke (NGLA). It's quite certain that Crump must not have listened to him (if Macdonald even mentioned the agronomic similarity to NGLA) as Pine Valley had the same kind of massive "growing medium" and "binding" and "water retention" problems ten years after Macdonald and NGLA went through all that---problems that the Wilsons, Flynn and Govan fixed in 1919-1920-1921.
You said;
"appears to me the reason they hired Alison was the same reason they did just about every thing after Crump's death...there was great effort to follow his wishes, and one can presume they believed bringing back Colt & Co. would have been Crump's wish."
There's no question whatsoever they were trying to follow Crump's wishes---everything following his death and certainly the formation and work of the so-called "1921 Advisory Committee" highlights and mentions that fact. But as far as hiring Alison because they understood that Crump wished Colt to return, there's no evidence I know of about that with one possible exception. I may take a look at the archives shortly but there is this from the recent Finegan PVGC history book (the one you and Paul have mentioned attempts to minimize Colt for not mentioning his part in PVGC more) that may shed some light on something within the archives of PVGC to that effect; Finegan said;
"The other three members of the committee (other than Fownes) were Simon Carr, Joe Bole, of Cleveland, and non-member Hugh Alison, representing Harry Colt and the firm of Colt, Mackenzie and Alison".
I have no idea if Finegan just happened to say it that way or if there's something within the PVGC archives he was almost quoting from to that effect.
But all of this, in my opinion, only goes to prove that PVGC the club, it's members, and Crump's friends and others in and around Philadelphia who knew and know PVGC and admire and admired Crump so much never had one damn thing against Colt or Alison in the manner of trying to minimize Colt (or Alision) which you and Paul Turner have been vociferously saying they all did for about the last year or two. So much so that you stated or implied to me that the club, members and his friends attempted to glorify Crump at Colt's expense because he shot himself! While apparently simultaneously creating some fictitious story that he died of a tooth abscess.
Maybe now you two are beginning to see the light---and hopefully the truth of the way things happened in and arcound PVGC during Crump's life and following it.
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TEPaul & Tom MacWood,
If Colt was so intricately involved in the early years of PV why would PV move away from him and his imput after Crump's death ?
Common sense would seem dictate that the club would hire Colt, not Allison, or anybody else.
Is there any documentation relating to the club's dilema, the architect's void, and their ultimate selection of Allison rather then Colt ?
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Wayne:
I think it's about time we both stop listening to and certainly responding to some of these outlandish presumptions, assumptions or conclusions that Tom MacWood seems to come to about Crump, Wilson, PVGC, Merion East and basically the "Philadelphia School of Architecture" and the Philadelphia golf region generally.
I had to have to say it again but he's never even been here, never laid eyes on either of these golf courses and probably knows no one in either of them and probably never has. Why does a guy like this think he can research and come to any accurate conclusions if he hasn't at least been here to these places? No wonder his musings are wrong, ridiculous and certainly should stop!
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"If Colt was so intricately involved in the early years of PV why would PV move away from him and his imput after Crump's death?"
Pat:
There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that PV or Crump was intricately involved with Colt. Colt spent perhaps a week at least, perhaps a little more with Crump at PVGC in June 1913. Previous to that the two may never have met and they surely never met again. It does not appear from anything that's in or around PV in archives or anything else that Crump sought his advice again after he departed for good in June 1913. Anybody who knows anything at all about the creation of PVGC knows that Crump very much did his own thing every day architecturally and otherwise on that golf course from June 1913 until the day he died suddenly on Jan 24, 1918. He certainly did invite and have numerous others of architectural experience in and around PV in those ensuing years. Crump according to all reports of those who knew him was a very generous, outgoing, and friendly man who sought and listened to all kinds of things from all kinds of people even if it was completely obvious he didn't always accept their advice. This is clearly why all those that knew him at PVGC have called him the ultimate editor of all that went on down there, and definitely with the golf course. And there's no question whatsoever that George Crump very definitely had his own unique ideas about how that course should be. He never kept any records of his own but the so-called "remembrances" of Smith and Carr are replete with what they knew he wanted to do. That's the primary reason they were written! Those two guys were his best friends and the ones who spent the most time with him out there other than Jim Govan, his professional, foreman and constant "shot-tester" for those 3-4 years before he died when they spent most every day constructing and designing that golf course.
"Common sense would seem dictate that the club would hire Colt, not Allison, or anybody else."
It's pretty clear to me that Crump was in no way wedded to Colt or ever expected him to return to PVGC.
"Is there any documentation relating to the club's dilema, the architect's void, and their ultimate selection of Allison rather then Colt?"
Yes, and I have most all of it and have for about four years. Whatever 'architect's void" (as you say) that golf club felt following Crump's sudden death was the void of no longer having George Crump!! If anyone on here or anywhere else tries to deny that, I can very much guarantee you they know very little about the early days of PVGC!.
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"Wayne:
I think it's about time we both stop listening to and certainly responding to some of these outlandish presumptions, assumptions or conclusions that Tom MacWood seems to come to about Crump, Wilson, PVGC, Merion East and basically the "Philadelphia School of Architecture" and the Philadelphia golf region generally."
I am in complete agreement. It takes a lot of time and effort to research this material and seemingly even longer to try and convince Tom MacWood of anything. My conclusion is that it is a waste of time. I post now and then in response to Tom MacWood's conclusions, especially when they seem so erroneous. But I am not trying to convince him of anything so much as hoping that just because he comes up with some conclusion or "proof" that it is not taken for granted by others that it is true.
I've been writing quite a bit lately and get far more enjoyment out of seeing that work progress than I ever would making headway convincing a certain persimmon head in Ohio ;) Hint. Hint ;)
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Wayne
I agree with you that Macdonald was not brought to Merion to lend his famous name. Merion was an established club. Macdonald was sought for advice because of his expertise.
My point was if Crump was simply looking for a big name to be associated with PV (which I do not believe was the case), Macdonald was more famous than Colt in America.
TE
Historically PV's position on Colt has been he should be credited for the 5th hole. IMO that is minimizing his role.
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Pat
Alison was Colt's partner and representative in America in the 1920's. The last trip Colt made outside Europe was in 1913. If you were in America and wanted a Colt design, you got Alison.
I assume the folks at PV were quite comfortable with Alison, he had come over 1903 with the Oxford & Cambridge Society and had competed with a number of Philadelphia golfers including Tilly and WP Smith.
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Tom MacWood,
Why do you think Alison wanted Flynn to go into business with him in 1921? As of 1921, Flynn's portfolio included Kilcare in VT, his continuing work at Merion, agronomics and construction at Pine Valley, Harrisburg, Doylestown, Eagles Mere, Washington GCC, Lancaster, construction of Westchester-Biltmore, Pocono Manor and Town and Country. Under what structure do you think that relationship might have been proposed? Did Alison use an engineer in his work in the US? If not, do you think Toomey would have been an integral part of Alison's desire to work with Flynn? Toomey and Flynn were just beginning to work together in 1921.
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"TE
Historically PV's position on Colt has been he should be credited for the 5th hole. IMO that is minimizing his role."
Tom:
I think I've told you this on here a number of times now but I'll tell you again. Historically, that's not really the case. That story about Colt recommending that #5's green be taken all the way up to where it is now is a famous story and undoubtedly very true.
Having just been able to really analyze that first stick routing the other day due to finally being able to see the details of the hole numbers and such it is pretty obvious to me why that Colt story on #5 is so famous.
It looks like that recommendation set into motion a series of routing decisions and events that very likely took place out there when Colt and Crump were together for that week or two in 1913. And it looks like that one decision on #5 is the thing that probably set it all off.
Basically it stopped Crump from trying to go over the ridge towards #10 green for his 6th hole or obviously in another Crump iteration for #6 (shown to Tillinghast and written about by Tillinghast before Colt arrived) of going over the other ridge on present #6 from way below it (where Crump had a short par 3 5th) to a par 5 green site at the present #6 green(#8 on Crump's stick routing).
The point of all this is neither Warner Shelly nor Jim Finegan who wrote the two PVGC history books in the last 20 or so years understood how that all played out in a routing and design sense. The reason they didn't understand that is at that point no one understood the red and blue lines on the topo in the front room and obviously no one tried to compare the topo in the superintendent's office that's very likely Crump before Colt arrived. Plus, obviously Finegan made an innocent but major research mistake of assuming the date on the topo in the front room was the date Crump finished the routing. That date was before Colt ever arrived at PVGC and it happened to be the surveyor's date!!
So they simply didn't know then the things we know now. So those two history books are the first time Colt's part in PVGC began to be minimized by PV.
Previous to that most members who concerned themselves with this kind of thing believed that Colt at least routed the whole course or even routed and designed it and that Crump spent the next 4-5 years building the course to those specs.
The reason most thought that (before the two history books) is that most were aware of Colt's hole by hole design booklet sitting in the archives but before the two history books no one had ever really looked carefully at that hole by hole design booklet to see if the particulars of it looked that much like the particulars of the way the course was actually built.
When Shelley and Finegan finally analyzed that booklet carefully they found it didn't look that much like the particulars of the holes on the course and that's what they both said---at very separated times and independently. Shelley lived at PVGC for decades and Finegan has been a member for decades and both know or knew that course like the back of their hand. So for them to say the details of the holes don't look all that much like the details of the course I tend to believe them (I think they both said there were more differences than similarities).
There's no real reason for you to call what they said into question, most particularly, and again, because you've never even laid eyes on that golf course. You simply don't know it as they do (did in the case of Shelly) and to try to pretend you do somehow simply because you think your such a great golf architecture researcher really just doesn't cut it! That's what I'd like those on here, including yourself, to fully understand! And I really do wish you would and could begin to understand that without automatically taking umbrage towards me or anyone else! To truly understand what's been talked about here that's completely necessary, in my opinion---that you really do become familiar with the details of the golf course. Frankly just looking at it once or twice or thrice would probably not do---you have to become as familiar with the details of it on the ground as they were--or I am now.
Why do I know that so many members felt Colt either routed or designed that course and Crump spent 4-5 years building it to those routing and design specs? Because over the years I've probably gotten to know a 100 or more members of PVGC and that's what they thought (before those two history books).
Lastly, none of them that I ever met had the slightest problem or concern with that. They all seemed quite proud of the architectural name of Harry Colt! But all of them were aware that Crump spent practically every day on that course for almost six years. What they never understood, in my opinion, is the details of what Crump did and Colt didn't do!
Now we do understand those things and hopefully in the not too distant future the club will too as well as its members that concern themselves with this kind of architectural thing!
Of course there're others like John Ott who understood Crump did more but he's lived there for over 30 years and is extremely interested in the details of the architecuture and he just knew more than most all of them. But he never knew as much as we do now. This he has told me a number of times recently. Mayor Ott has no axe to grind against Colt--he's a fair and objective man. Just ask anyone who knows him. Ask Tommy Nacarrato.
So I really do wish you'd try to learn something here instead of just continually claiming;
'IMO PVGC has historically minimized Colt's role'.
Are you ever going to listen to the things some of us have to say and begin to believe them or are you always just going to think and imply you know more or something that's going to expose some big dark secret why PVGC tried to minimize Colt?
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Hugh Wilson, who may've gone into an architectural partnership with Flynn himself had he not been bothered by illness described Alison to Piper and Oakley (in a written introduction in a letter) as a very attractive man. However, (in another letter) he said he really didn't think an architectural partnership between Flynn and Alison would be particularly advantageous for Flynn. In so many words, he basically said he didn't think Flynn needed Alison at that point.
There's no question, though, and it seems hard to stress enough on here, just how heavily Wilson (and to a large degree Flynn and Toomey too) were into golf agronomics and its experimentations---perhaps far more than archtiecture.
Wilson believed Flynn was the best actual practioner there was on that score---eg on the ground practical golf agronmics. Wilson even cracked (in another letter) after Colt had written him regarding agronomic information dissemination, something to the effect;
"I guess they realize they need to come to us now."
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Wayne
When you say Alison asked Flynn to go into business with him, I interpret that as establishing a business relationship with a expert in construction. Similar to MacKenzie and Wendell Miller or Tillinghast and Peter Lees or Colt and William Murray or Alison and George Penglase. I would think one of the first moves a foreign architect would make would be to secure a competent constructor, and obviously Flynn fit that bill. I don't know about Toomey.
TE
You don't have to go over the chain of events, I'm aware of how it developed. I actually believe Shelley gave more credit to Colt than Finegan did. To his credit, WS also understood the map hanging at PV was a Crump and Colt creation.
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There's no question, though, and it seems hard to stress enough on here, just how heavily Wilson (and to a large degree Flynn and Toomey too) were into golf agronomics and its experimentations---perhaps far more than archtiecture.
Wilson believed Flynn was the best actual practioner there was on that score---eg on the ground practical golf agronmics. Wilson even cracked (in another letter) after Colt had written him regarding agronomic information dissemination, something to the effect;
"I guess they realize they need to come to us now."
Have to say, Tom: that's a very interesting quote from Wilson - "I guess they relaize they need to come to us now."
Very interesting.
I hope a lot of the Wilson stuff (ie. those letters to and from Piper and Oakley) are covered in your Flynn book.
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I hope a lot of the Wilson stuff (ie. those letters to and from Piper and Oakley) are covered in your Flynn book.
........Which is set for a 2023 release.
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"TE
You don't have to go over the chain of events, I'm aware of how it developed."
Tom:
Are you really? You should could fool me. Why is it then you keep saying the same things in contradiction to those chain of events?
"I actually believe Shelley gave more credit to Colt than Finegan did. To his credit, WS also understood the map hanging at PV was a Crump and Colt creation."
It's Shelly. I don't think Shelly gave more credit to Colt, and if Shelly did understand the topo map hanging in the front room at PV was a Colt's and Crump's creation (any more than Finegan did) he certainly didn't mention that in his book. Matter of fact, I can't see he mentioned that topo map at all. What Shelly mentioned in that regard was the hole by hole design booklet of Colt's. Shelly who obviously analyzed that booklet carefully for his history book had this to say about Colt's hole by hole booklet'
"The remarkable difference between these designs (Colt hole by hole booklet) and the final layout is surprising."
On the same subject of Colt's hole by hole booklet and the way the course was constructed Finegan had this to say:
"There are some similarities between Colt's work and the final layout of the holes, but there are many differences."
Since neither one of them seem to have understood the distinction between Colt and Crump's hand on the topo routing map in the front room, or more likely that there even was anything from Colt on that topo routing map, the hole by hole booklet is the thing they both obviously focused on most. Both of them----two men who clearly knew that course like the back of their hands came to the conclusion that the hole by hole Colt booklet was either 'remarkably different as to be suprising' or to have 'more differences than similarities.'
Since neither Paul, you or I have ever seen that booklet it probably wouldn't be that prudent to discount what Shelly and Finegan had to say about it.
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"It's Shelly."
I'm sorry. Spelling has never been my strong suit. I actually I had it spelled 'Shelly' originally until I reread your post and you had it spelled 'Shelley'.
This is what I read in the old PV history:
"The original plan or drawing of the course laid out by Colt and Crump is now in the clubhouse. It shows the foresight of the founders."
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"This is what I read in the old PV history:"
'The original plan or drawing of the course laid out by Colt and Crump is now in the clubhouse. It shows the foresight of the founders.'
Tom:
Could you point out where it says that in Warner Shelly's PVGC history book?
PS
Spelling has never been my strong suit either but at least I can look at this thing and copy it.
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It is page 11 of the old PV history.
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Tommy N.,
What year did Flynn die, 1945?
If so, we've already been waiting 60 years for a book on him. I guess I can wait another 18 ;D
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"It is page 11 of the old PV history."
Tom MacW:
There's nothing like that on page 11 of Warner Shelly's PVGC history book. What book are you speaking of---John Arthur Brown's little book?
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TE
My mistake. John Arthur Brown gave more credit to Colt than either Shelly or Finegan. And to his credit he recognized who was responsible for the plan.
If I'm not mistaken Brown began his service at PV in the late twenties....he may have even put in more time than you. :)
Other than Crump, has there been a more influential force at PV?
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"Other than Crump, has there been a more influential force at PV?"
No, not even close. Brown became the president of PVGC at age 40 in 1925 (from Howard Perrin) and remained as same until he died in 1977 at 92. He was one of golf's most famous "benevolent autocrats" (one could decide for themselves the meaning of "benevolent" in his case) and it was nearly impossible for a first time visitor to PVGC in recent years to not hear a couple of interesting and generally funny J.A. Brown "stories". His superintendent, Eb Steineger was along with him almost the entire way and Brown had a famous "1st lieutenant" who executed many of his demands and messages to players and members by the name of "Big Ed" Bryant.
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Tom MacW:
Now that we seem to be getting along with each other a bit better in the last few days, don't you think it's about time you answered our constant question to you about why you think it's so significant to the truth of who was responsible for the architecture of PVGC and the part Colt played in it that Crump may've shot himself rather than died of poison from a tooth abscess?
Nobody is asking you to expose any "source" or anything of that nature, merely a detailed OPINION of why you think a Crump "suicide" would have any significance to what the club thought of him and what he did there (vs what Colt did there).
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Human nature.
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"Human nature"
Was it worth all of the effort by Tom Paul for that response? At least things are less contentious. But with all the information he shared and the time and energy put into the effort to explain the relationship between PVGC and Crump and with Colt and the other architects, I would've expected a bit more from Tom MacWood. I think it is because he is defending a defenseless position and I wish he'd run up the white flag. It is time to stop wasting his and our time. As Tommy Naccarato pointed out that there's a lot more important things to be doing than trying to convince you of anything.
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Does the substance of post #110 following post #109 tell you why I've said a number of times that Tom MacWood's interpretations on here on various matters, research and otherwise, relating to golf architecture--eg his assumptions and conclusions---are either completely inscrutable or completely worthless? ;) I love to see some of the raw research material he posts on here, and I encourage him to continue to produce it---but intelligently interpret it? No way!
Wayne:
Maybe he still thinks I'm asking him to reveal some new "source" that proves Crump committed suicide, but I'm certainly not doing that. Are Tom MacWood's "ducks" his mysterious "sources". If so I guess they either aren't in a row or they have their heads sticking straight down in some pond and their asses in the air at the moment. I'm not asking him anything about "sources" that he feels might be injured by us on here which only serves to make Tom ill. I'm only asking him to explain why he thinks a Crump suicide (vs dying of poison from a tooth abscess) would have any significance to the way the Club looked at Crump vs Colt and their parts in that vein during PVGC creation.
As Adlai said to the stonewalling Russian ambassador in the Untied Nation;
"I'm prepared to wait for his answer until hell freezes over!" ;)
On all that voluminous information on the details of the routing of PVGC that you mentioned I just supplied for him, I fully expect in a day or so he'll just take that information and tell me he already knew all that! ;)
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Interesting that Tom knows human nature so well that he doesn't have to come within 500 miles of Pine Valley to know exactly how they think (90 years ago no less) and analyzes for us the club psyche and how it relates to the perpetuation of myths. Sounds like a good thesis to write in the ivory tower.
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Tom MacW:
I'm still waiting!