Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Josh Smith on November 19, 2006, 12:15:37 PM
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Old Sandwich in Plymouth MA is a recent effort from Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw. However, you would have sworn the course had been there for decades and there really isn't anything recent looking about it. With the unbelievable maintenance meld and the design imperfections all over the ground, it PLAYS and FEELS like a step back in time.
Here's hoping Ran Profiles this course soon...
Mr. Coore, the gentleman that he is, arranged for my visit as I was seeing different courses gathering painting inspiration this summer. The good fortune was granted to me to play and photograph some holes with the thought of maybe doing an oil painting out there someday. Also, permission was granted to post these photographs, otherwise the thought would NEVER have crossed my mind.
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/Old%20Sandwich/OldSacropped.jpg) This is the view from the teeing ground on a mid lenth par three with many fun pin locations. I believe it is the 15th hole.
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/Old%20Sandwich/OldSandymerge.jpg) This is the view from the first landing area on a par five. The bunker on the right is one of my favorite on the course. The placement of the centerline bunker in the second landing area creates plenty of doubt in your mind as you hit your second.
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/Old%20Sandwich/OldSandddcrop.jpg)
This is the unique short par 4 fifth hole measuring 336 yds. The green is the flattish area far left. Native blueberry bushes are pictured down in the canyon and work there ways through the native areas all over the course. A unique feature at OS. The view above is from the teeing area and the view below is from the left rough near the approach.
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/Old%20Sandwich/OldSanddddcrop.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/Old%20Sandwich/Seancrop.jpg)
This picture above is the view from in front of the sandy waste area and green on the par four seventh which measures around 390 yards. The photo below is a view looking back on the hole from back left of the green.
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/Old%20Sandwich/OldSandwich6merge-1.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/Old%20Sandwich/OldSandwiccrop.jpg)
The photo above is a view from the tee of a mid length par three that was one of my favorites. The photo below is a view looking back towards the tee on the same hole which shows the unique approach area that lays in wait if you overshoot the green. This occurs a lot at Old Sandwich. The area in shade is about where the green stops and the rear approach begins.
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/Old%20Sandwich/OldSandwicrop-1.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/Old%20Sandwich/BostonGCOldSandwichSuttonBay375.jpg)
This view above is of the landing area on the par 4 12th hole, 455 yds. The lighting shows the rumpled fairway and the bunkering that is extremely important to this great driving hole.
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/Old%20Sandwich/OldSancrop-1.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/Old%20Sandwich/OldSandwich2seanmerge.jpg)
Hole two is a par 4 403 yds. slight dogleg right with a group of imposing centerline bunkers and plenty of fairway left of these that is not pictured.
Given this course is built in native sand, the conditions are perfect and hitting the ball along the ground is not only an option, but is more often than not the best option.
Special thanks to Sean M. and Mr. Coore for this opportunity. Hope all you guys enjoy this glimpse into what is a truly a rare bird.
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Josh,
Great photos. Old Sandwich really is a unique and special place. The fescue surfaces play firm and the fairways are quite rumpled which make for numerous uneven stances. The routing makes for an extremely easy and enjoyable walk, tees are often just a few paces from the previous green. And speaking of greensites, they are some of the most interesting around. As Josh mentioned, the tie-ins with the surrounding areas blend seamlessly and there are many collection area extensions or bunkers that will collect trickling balls off the greens. Add in the fact that they play quite firm and approaches are quite demanding. There is a lot of short game interest there, you could go out with just a putter and wedge and have a great time.
Josh, do you have any pics of the short par 3 9th hole or the par 5 13th hole?
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Absolutely gorgeous. I love the slightly yellowed color of the bunker sand. The color and jagged edges of the bunkers blend perfectly with the resy of the course and grasses/textures.
The second picture of the par 5 fairway bunker looks a little
"whiter" than the rest but I am guessing the actual sand looks like the other pictures.
Stunning :D
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I've been looking in vain for pictures of Old Sandwich. This post made my day. I played in Plymouth last weekend and tried to get a peak at OS on the way back home, but the place is locked down like a fortress. Aside from hiking through the woods for several hundred yards, I'm not sure an interloper can get a peak at the place.
It's amazing how much different OS looks from the rest of Plymouth's offerings, which I have found did not meet my expectations. The land in Plymouth is hilly, but it often doesn't make for ideal golf IMO -- the slopes are often so extreme that the holes can only make repetitive use of them (i.e. glacier kettles on one side, or playing in the saddle of two large hills). OS, however, looks just incredible.
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All I will say is wow....can't wait to see this place someday...
Aaron,
I think that Plymouth offers some very good golf. You are correct that the courses do look alot alike, as they are all built on basically the same terrain. I have a co-worker who lives in Plymouth and loves golf, but the town's situation is such that he will likely never want to join a club. They now have 6 or 7 public options as well as a couple privates.
I find the Pinehills courses to be very resorty, with lots of earth moving and mounding to fit the holes up and down the glacial till. However, they are both great tests of golf, the Nicklaus course greater than the Rees course. Atlantic is much of the same, although a bit more playable, and Waverly Oaks is another that is quite good, a quirkier Pinehills from the beginning of Brian Silva's Raynor period.
I would rank the Plymouth courses thusly:
Plymouth CC
Waverly Oaks
Pinehills Nicklaus
Pinehills Rees
Atlantic
Crosswinds
I imagine OS would be up with PCC, but I haven't seen it as of yet.
I wonder if the market for public or private golf in the area is saturated yet, as Boston GC just opened as well about 10 miles north of OS.
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Thanks for posting, and well done on the photography. You have an terrific eye for capturing revealing photos - most don't exhibit the landforms nearly as well.
* Just put two and two together and realized why you have such a good eye. Hope we can see the painting someday, if you do one.
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Josh,
Those were some awesome pics! What kind of camera did you use? There looked to be some pretty big boulders on site. Were there very many rocks in the playing corridors?
Gary
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I look the look sof the course even better than the name. It seems to have a bit of a Stranzian quality. Some of the holes look like they could have been plucked right off of TR.
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Josh,
Thanks for posting the pictures here. One of my biggest regrets in recent years is that I had an invite to play OS but couldn't stay an extra day in town due to work demands. It does look like great fun and is certainly visually appealing.
Jimmy,
I'm not sure I'd use the word "unique", based on what the pictures show. If you take a look at the Hidden Creek profile on GCA, it looks remarkably similar.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing; quite the contrary, in fact. I'm just not sure that it's anything markedly different or groundbreaking from what I've seen from them previously.
Is it?
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I'm not sure I'd use the word "unique", based on what the pictures show. If you take a look at the Hidden Creek profile on GCA, it looks remarkably similar.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing; quite the contrary, in fact. I'm just not sure that it's anything markedly different or groundbreaking from what I've seen from them previously.
Is it?
Old Sandwich is Hidden Creek on about a 20% larger scale with more undulation. It's a fine course but not at all unique. It's the major criticism that I have of the C&C portfolio, it's becoming redundant in places.
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What is the maintenance budget??
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Old Sandwich is Hidden Creek on about a 20% larger scale with more undulation. It's a fine course but not at all unique. It's the major criticism that I have of the C&C portfolio, it's becoming redundant in places.
Jason,
Would that be 20% larger width-wide, length-wise, or just based on overall elevation change?
From the pictures, it's difficult to tell, but I'm seeing marked similarities, with perhaps a trifle bit more use of sand than at Hidden Creek.
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I just tuned in here and my first reaction was the Hidden Creek similarity. I guess I'm not alone.
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I just tuned in here and my first reaction was the Hidden Creek similarity. I guess I'm not alone.
Steve,
I was hoping that it wasn't just me. I do tend to be perhaps overly visually-oriented.
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First group of good photos that I've seen of OS. Thanks, Josh! Should be a fine canvas indeed....
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Jason,
Would that be 20% larger width-wide, length-wise, or just based on overall elevation change?
From the pictures, it's difficult to tell, but I'm seeing marked similarities, with perhaps a trifle bit more use of sand than at Hidden Creek.
20% more width and elevation, I didn't notice a significant length difference.
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Well my typically overly analytical rater buddies have dropped the ball here. :D
I see an sand island green on a short 4, I see diagonal carries across natural vegetation, I see a trench bunker. Things that I have not seen from C&C. Now that they have perfected all the things that many on this site love (width, f&f, wild greens, short 4's), we throw them under the bus because it is not unique. How about if the critics would offer a suggested change, rather than a quick critique and run. :o
Well guess what, Hidden Creek is unique in the Philly market same as OS is probably unique in the Boston market. They are obviously built in similar sandy pine tree areas, with OS seeming to have some more elevation. Why would they change the formula? To satify a bunch of raters who obviously travel way too much and way too far! How about the members who will obviously join because it is unique.
I only wish they would be redundant closer to me in Connecticut.
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Mike,
All I believe I said is that it's not unique and looks a heckuva lot like Hidden Creek to me. There are certainly worse comparisons, frankly. Steve Shaffer's not a rater and he saw the same thing.
If we point out courses as "typical Rees", or "typical Fazio", I think it's only fair that we do the same with some of our favorites. That's neither good nor bad, inherently, and if someone likes the style, who cares except us golf course nerds, as you point out correctly?
I think Tom Doak made the exact same point about PGA West in the "Confidential Guide", when he said he wasn't as impressed by it as he might have been because he already saw Dye do it first and better at TPC Sawgrass. I had the exact same reaction playing Bulle Rock, having played Blackwolf Run River a few months prior.
However, I also think that one of the things I look for is originality, creativity, and something that pushes the design envelope, which is why I was so enamored with Lederach, for instance. Perhaps that's jaded, or perhaps it's overly finicky, but I do know that it's not easy to do and I also know that in any art form, unless it's moving forward, it's probably getting stale.
As great as those early records were, if the Beatles were still singing updated versions of "Please, Please Me", or "I Want To Hold Your Hand" in 1968, they would have risked becoming irrelevant and stale. Yes, they would have held onto their core following, but they wouldn't have advanced the art form.
Thankfully, they continued evolving. What's that line from Bob Dylan about he who isn't busy being born?
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Well guess what, Hidden Creek is unique in the Philly market same as OS is probably unique in the Boston market.
. . . .
How about the members who will obviously join because it is unique.
Mike:
Unique designs that I've played by C&C are FH, the Plantation Course and Cuscowilla, (obviously SH but I've not played it)but after playing both HC and OS I would not call either unique. Both are fine courses but do not burn into your memory the way the others do.
BTW, there's nothing as unique in the Boston market as Boston Golf Club!!!
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Mike& Mike
I forgot to add to my post the Seinfeld line- "Not that there's anything wrong with that."
I'm curious to see Colorado GC up close and personal.
Steve
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Mike S.,
Unfortunately, as I mentioned, I haven't played OS. So remember that I'm only sharing my impressions based on the pictures provided.
However, Jason has played there and confirmed my insights.
I'm not sure why the work of C&C is beyond critical discussion around here and why I'm feeling that I need to defend pointing out that OS looks almost exactly like HC. There's nothing wrong with saying that they're possibly becoming a bit too formulaic, is there?
You know, frankly, there are a lot of other folks here who I'm certain are thinking the exact same thing as I am, including many who feel very unafraid of venturing an honest opinion about something that's happened 80 years ago, but for some unknown reason they feel that this topic, or anything relating to the most minor criticism of a C&C course is "untouchable". Disappointing, really...but I guess on some level understandable.
Sheesh...the day I become a fan instead of an impassioned, but passionate observer is the day I lose all objectivity.
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Old Sandwich and Hidden Creek do indeed share some similarities, but since they are on sites that also have some things in common and built by the same architects, that is to be expected. I definitely don't understand the few criticisms cited about similar looking or formulaic. One of the things that I enjoy about many of the golden-age architects is that you can see common traits between many of their courses. The Tillinghast courses around Westchester have a lot in common, the Flynn courses around Philly have a lot in common. All Raynors have a lot in common. I don't find that to be a negative with any of those....
I find Old Sandwich much more difficult and demanding than Hidden Creek. It's fairway bunkering is placed particularly well, especially when you play from the proper set of tees. There is much movement on the ground and the very firm surfaces make the ball bounce all over the place. The fescue surfaces are what really bring the design to life. The player has numerous options over every shot as to best approach a flag. Combined with the present wind and it makes for fun golf.
In many ways, Old Sandwich is a very subtle golf course. It doesn't show it's full hand after one play and many features will go unnoticed until your ball end up in one.
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Well guess what, Hidden Creek is unique in the Philly market same as OS is probably unique in the Boston market. They are obviously built in similar sandy pine tree areas, with OS seeming to have some more elevation. Why would they change the formula? To satisfy a bunch of raters who obviously travel way too much and way too far! How about the members who will obviously join because it is unique.
I only wish they would be redundant closer to me in Connecticut.
As it turns out, they have deeply satisfied Golfweek raters, who place Old Sandwich as the second best new course for 2004/2005, right behind Bandon Trails.
I agree with Mike Sweeney here, that each metropolitan area benefits greatly by having one of these beautiful C&C courses, though they may look similar when compared on a national level. The "look" has much to do with the mature forest and selected grasses. By the way, the Fazio course at Pronghorn looks quite similar to this, and I believe Mr. Fazio has adopted elements of the "look" because of its popularity.
Many of the pictured holes would not look out of place at Bandon Trails. Not so much Friar's Head, which has much different terrain and vegetation. And nothing yet looks like Sand Hills.
I agree with Mike Cirba too. I'm shy to criticize or even analyze, especially since it is pretty well known I'm a big fan of Tom D's courses.
Anyway, it looks very nice. Thanks for the pictures, Josh.
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By the way, the Fazio course at Pronghorn looks quite similar to this, and I believe Mr. Fazio has adopted elements of the "look" because of its popularity.
Mike,
John said it better. I love the look of the Fazio course at Pronghorn too. You are reading too deep into the C&C thing.
One could even argue that Ran and GCA.com popularized "the look" that we are now seeing from modern architects. Fazio at Pronghorn, Rees to a lesser extent, but still there (below), at The Golf Club at Cape Cod. Coore & Creenshaw repeating.
(http://www.tgccc.com/UserUploadedImages/Hole6Approach.jpg)
I am not sure if Doak has ever had a site on sandy soil cut through Pine trees. Pronghorn may not be Pine trees, but it looked similar. Now let's look at the alternatives that C&C could have chosen from for sites on sandy soil cut through the trees:
Stone Harbor - we have jumped on Desmond grave enough around here
Hampton Hills - the prototypical 1970's Frank Duane course cut through very narrow paths mainly straight holes. I can't remember 1 hole, and while it has been many years, I think that was a great site.
The Bridge - see Stone Harbor
Shore Gate - Mike Cirba, you have said a number of times how they tried to do something different, tried to do something interesting, had good intent......but missed the mark here. I have no idea how much the OS land cost, but let's assume it was $10 mm+. Does the deveoper want what works or what may work from the architect.
Pine Valley - okay that is arguably the mother ship for this look
Sand Barrens - interesting when it opened, but when the third nine came in, it became all so similar.
Cherry Creek - The Woods - Jason may know it, next.
Tobacco Road - Ok now we are talking, but that is not a C&C thing, and I would be okay with C&C getting criticized for not moving enough dirt on certain sites. Certainly Doak the minimalist is a marketing term after The Rawls Course.
Pinehurst #2 - I like Donald Ross, but I do not love him, and now that I think of it, I prefer the look of Forrest Creek Fazio (NC) to all the Pinehurst courses.
Mike Cirba and Jason, my question still stands. What should C&C have done differently? Are you talking about specific features, problems with the routing or just the philosophical "the look" which GCA has popularized and is now throwing under the bus without an alternative. :o
What is so unique about Boston Golf Club?
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Who cares if two private clubs in different cities are similar? Surely the overlap of frequent golfers at the two courses will be extremely minimal.
It's quite an American thing to make yours different from the other guy's solely for the sake of being different. That's why, when we go to dinner in this country, it's common practice for everyone at the table to order something different.
In other countries people order what looks tastiest and they don't worry if someone else has the same thing. They're only concerned about the meal they're eating. (Oversimplification, I know.)
I'm sure nobody from HC or OS will lose sleep over their course being similar to the other guy's.
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I have played both and did not walk away from OS thinking HC. I walked away thinking that was a damn hard course and a lot of fun. Like Mike said, I thought C&C tried some new things at OS and I enjoyed it immensely.
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Jimmy,
Thanks for spelling out some differences you see between OS and HC and I'm really glad that it came out so well. My only challenge was with your term "unique", and I think others here saw the similarities, as well. I hope to see for myself some day.
John/Mike/Matt,
Don't you guys find it a bit odd that when pictures were recently posted of the Fazio course at Pronghorn, a good deal of the ensuing discussion implied that somehow Fazio was now ripping off the C&C style?
Do people forget that Tom Fazio built World Woods Pine Barrens, Galloway National, and the Short Course at Pine Valley before C&C built Sand Hills??? ::)
Why is it ok for people to criticize what they see as derivative in Fazio's bunkering on the Pronghorn thread, but it is somehow outside the GCA pale to mention anything but glowing adulation here anytime a C&C course is mentioned.
How is saying that a course they built in Boston looks remarkably similar to a course they built in NJ something to take issue with? If three of the first people on the scene to a thread see the same thing, perhaps it's true?
I'm sure from all accounts that OS is a very fine course, and it looks like great fun, as I mentioned in my first thread. But, can't we have a balanced discussion about architectural details here, or do we have to anoint each new course as the next Second Coming?
John,
I know you say that you don't mind if C&C repeat themselves in each city, but what if there were similar geological formations to Sand Hills in Kansas, Montana, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Iowa, North Dakota, etc., and C&C went and built very similar courses in each of them? Same kind of theme, same kind of look, same kind of playability? Yes, in some sense that would be great for all of those cities, but at what point would you think they might reach some level of diminishing returns? At what point might they be rightfully accused of "mailing it in", or becoming rote and formulaic?
Mike,
You list a number of different pineland styles that C&C could have emulated, but I guess what I'm asking is why they need to emulate a style at all?
I think "the look" that Tom Fazio popularized ;) is growing a bit tired, frankly. If Rees is now going for it, that should tell you all you need to know about how fresh and interesting and adventurous it is. ;) ;D
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I've never seen anything even remotely like OS. It is unique. Every hole is so different from the other and is different from every other hole I have ever played. I never had the feeling of deja vu anywhere on the course.
Every green was unique, I have never seen greens like that anywhere else in the world. All 18 were unique unto themselves.
They got every iota of golf architecture possible out of the property.
William Jerome,
Thank you for your fine, insightful, thought-provoking post. I have learned simply that I am completely wrong, once again. ;D
Jim Franklin,
Can you elaborate on what new things C&C did at OS that you haven't seen from them before? As I said, the course does look fun and if it is also different I'm eager to hear.
Thanks!
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Mike Cirba,
Something makes me think that William Jerome Theodore Vostinak is pulling our legs. BTW , I really am Michael Dennis Patrick.
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mayday,
Either that or Mr. Vostinak has recently been fully assimilated into the GCA C&C Borg Collective. ;)
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I think "the look" that Tom Fazio popularized ;) is growing a bit tired, frankly. If Rees is now going for it, that should tell you all you need to know about how fresh and interesting and adventurous it is. ;) ;D
I actually think that Rees was the first to have 'the look" at Atlantic way before C&C, just with round bunkers and mounds that are not favored here.
You list a number of different pineland styles that C&C could have emulated, but I guess what I'm asking is why they need to emulate a style at all?
First off my comments are not about C&C, it is about 'the look", which C&C have aruguably perfected and now you make the point may be going back to the well once too often. "The look" is out there today in varying degrees.
What incentive is there to try something new (see Stone Harbor, Deer Run and Shoregate), when you raters barely reward the modern architects creativity?
Here is the Top 10 by Golfweek
1. (1) Sand Hills Golf Club (p) 9.41 - unique for sure but more for the land and place.
2. (2) Pacific Dunes (r) 9.23 - inspired from Scotland right?
3. (3) Friar's Head (p) 8.72 - has been mentioned by others as the modern Cypress
4. (4) Whistling Straits (Straits) (r) 8.49 - completely manufactured, inspired by Scotland
5. (6) Pete Dye Golf Club (p) 8.27 - don't know it, but seems unique, also bankrupt so uniqueness may have other problems.
6. (8) Muirfield Village Golf Club (p) 8.19 - inspired by Augusta right?
7. (7) The Golf Club (p) 8.17 - have no idea on this one
8. (9) Shadow Creek Golf Club (r) - supposed to be North Carolina course in the desert
9. (5) Bandon Dunes (r) 8.02 - I have not been, but this seems more unique from a distance than Pacific, but still inspired by Macrihanish as per the book.
10. (11) Kinloch Golf Club (p) 8.00 - personally reminds me of Westchester/Bethpage courses with a modern twist. However, I would say this is pretty unique.
Mike,
Par 70-72, 6500-7500 yards are the basic principals for the modern architect. 15,000 courses in the US, probably double that worldwide. How much is unique at this point?
There is a reason that Mike K is building Old Macdonald!!
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Mike,
Perhaps I'm missing your point, or is it that John Kavanaugh is correct and that architects should just offer "standard template product" and merchandise under McDonalds-type franchises? :o ;D
Perhaps that freeze-dried, transportable course (re: hare-brained scheme) I thought up isn't so far-fetched after all? ::)
After all, if it works in NYC, it's gonna make it anywhere! ;D
Seriously, Mike, I'd really like to be surprised to learn who an architect is when I visit a course. It's difficult, I'm sure, not to lean on one's best prior work and that's why their are so few artists and so many craftsmen. I always thought of C&C as the former, so perhaps I'm holding them to a higher standard?
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For me, if an architect has a "template" style that more naturally fits the setting / environment / locale, then it is more than acceptable (and appreciated at least by me).
I do not grow tired of looking at Coore & Crenshaw (or Doak, "neo-classicist" / minimalist) courses. They suit my aesthetic. Often, their projects are not forced into housing developments (a common pet-peeve here) so that's a large part of the appeal. The courses meet my "get-away" requirement.
The qualifier for me is that the architect's "style" is a more natural look.
As a change of pace, I enjoy some 1980's era pot-bunker, railroad tie, sharp edge, Dye-knock-offs. (For me, the general dilineation is Pete not PB). However, this "look" becomes forced and repetitive very quickly. This type of "design by template" at least appears to this eye to work against the terrain.
Somehow, the Coore & Crenshaw style seems to fit whether it's New Mexico, Nebraska, or New England. I'd love to see what their work would look like in Kentucky or Tennessee.
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It's difficult, I'm sure, not to lean on one's best prior work and that's why their are so few artists and so many craftsmen. I always thought of C&C as the former, so perhaps I'm holding them to a higher standard?
Mike,
Can you list a few modern courses that you would consider artistic?
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disclaimer: I played HC, but not OS
OS seems scruffier looking with lots of native grass...I thouhgt HC is more Pinheurst-like...
pictures look great, thanks for posting
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It's difficult, I'm sure, not to lean on one's best prior work and that's why their are so few artists and so many craftsmen. I always thought of C&C as the former, so perhaps I'm holding them to a higher standard?
I'd look at Mike Strantz's body of work for artistic achievement, Royal New Kent, Tobacco Road, Tot Hill Farm to name 3
Mike,
Can you list a few modern courses that you would consider artistic?
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Mike,
Interesting you mention Hampton Hills. That is a property with some potential: rolling, sandy, featuring an attractive pine forest. The course just isn't very good. I think the problem stems from a suspect routing.
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Is it safe to say that bunker style and fairway width are the primary items contributing to the "look" of a course?
Many modern U.S. courses have plenty of width, modeled on Scottish layouts.
Few (I think) new courses go for the cavernous, stacked sod-wall pot bunkers. Why is that? I love that look but don't see it much in the U.S. I think Doak's Heathland had it. Also true at Bandon Dunes?
Otherwise, the blow-out bunker of C&C, Bradley, etc., is everywhere. I must admit to being a bid fan of that style as well, but I'd love to see more truly penal pot bunkers.
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It's difficult, I'm sure, not to lean on one's best prior work and that's why their are so few artists and so many craftsmen. I always thought of C&C as the former, so perhaps I'm holding them to a higher standard?
I'd look at Mike Strantz's body of work for artistic achievement, Royal New Kent, Tobacco Road, Tot Hill Farm to name 3
Mike,
Can you list a few modern courses that you would consider artistic?
Agreed, but Strantz moved a bunch of dirt, so the question is can you be artistic and minimalistic?
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(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/Old%20Sandwich/OldSandwiccrop.jpg)
The photo above is a view from the tee of a mid length par three that was one of my favorites. The photo below is a view looking back towards the tee on the same hole which shows the unique approach area that lays in wait if you overshoot the green. This occurs a lot at Old Sandwich. The area in shade is about where the green stops and the rear approach begins.
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/Old%20Sandwich/OldSandwicrop-1.jpg)
Is this hole a reverse Redan?
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I agree that variety is the spice and Old Sandwich (what a crappy, mouldy, name) does resemble Hidden Creek. But still, the course looks fantastic.
No doubt the dead guys had many courses that looked similar, but 80+ years of evolution/rebuild etc adds variety
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What is the maintenance budget??
What
ha
ha ha ha
hat
is the
budget.........
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I agree that variety is the spice and Old Sandwich (what a crappy, mouldy, name) does resemble Hidden Creek. But still, the course looks fantastic.
Paul,
I agree completely on both counts. I would reiterate that my only challenge to this thread was the use of the term "unique", even if just unique to the C&C portfolio.
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Mike,
Can you list a few modern courses that you would consider artistic?
Mike,
There are many modern courses that I'd consider artistic, and in fact a number of them probably aren't as good a golf course as Old Sandwich, necessarily. However, within constraints of budget, setting, and even housing considerations, I've seen where clever, creative, and daring architects have strived to create something different, non-formulaic, and even provocative, even if just stretching their own talents and ideas of what a golf course should be.
Since it's a course many of us here have played, I'll throw Lederach into the discussion. While not blessed with much in the way of a great site, and with housing considerations and a limited budget, it offers one unusual, thought-provoking hole after another. It also has feature shaping quite different than any style I've seen from Kelly Moran prior, including bunkers (both grass and sand) that are quite different in stylistic quality than anything I've seen. The fact that there are so few of them, and the fact that they're so well placed only adds to the interest.
The greens offer more internal contour than any other modern course I've seen, in a mind-bending variety of forms.
On the other hand, I'm quite sure that OS is an overall better golf course, all things considered.
And, to answer your other question, yes, I think it's quite possible to be both minimalistic and artistic. The true artist knows instinctively that the only thing more important than what you put in is what you leave out. ;D
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(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/Old%20Sandwich/OldSandddcrop.jpg)
This is the unique short par 4 fifth hole measuring 336 yds. The green is the flattish area far left. Native blueberry bushes are pictured down in the canyon and work there ways through the native areas all over the course. A unique feature at OS. The view above is from the teeing area and the view below is from the left rough near the approach.
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/Old%20Sandwich/OldSanddddcrop.jpg)
Once again, Josh, thanks so much for posting these photos. We are so lucky to have such industrious members.
Is anyone else reminded of the tee shot on #16 at Pasatiempo here?
I don't think it has been specifically mentioned how great that light green fescue grass looks. Fescue is a superior playing surface.
Tim Copeland, no one has answered your question, but my understanding is the people at Old Sandwich could afford a big budget if necessary. However, fescue grass requires little water or nutrition. Dan Lucas is one of our resident fescue experts.
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John might be right about the above hole resembling Pasatiempo. I haven't played Pasa yet so I don't know. However, the first thing that popped into my head when I saw this picture was the 6th hole at Friar's Head. Anyone else see any similarities?
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Gary,
The pictures of the 5th at OS do resemble the look of the 6th at Friar's Head but that hole is a much longer par 4. The 5th at OS is really a great risk/reward short par 4. The picture from the tee shows some of the wild undulations in the fairway. The conservative play is about a 220 yard shot just to the right of the fairway bunkers. If, however, you miss a little right or long, you will have blind approach from a tricky stance. Those who use the big stick want to aim around the middle of the fairway bunkers, the angled fairway will kick the ball down toward the green if the shot is played properly.
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And, to answer your other question, yes, I think it's quite possible to be both minimalistic and artistic. The true artist knows instinctively that the only thing more important than what you put in is what you leave out. ;D
Mike,
One example please, and remember before you say Sand Hills, C&C import the talent to do their bunkering, which to me is the sign of a good craftsman. I would also say finding holes is more craft than art.
I would agree with the Kelly @ Lederach and Strantz courses by Cary, but I would not say that Lederach is minimalistic. Thus, we are up to 4 modern courses out many thousand, and still no minimalism. ;)
Tom Doak is not lacking in ego, but I don't remember him ever claming any artistic ability.
I am not sure about Fazio. His courses are pretty, but I could see someone making the argument that they are paint by numbers. However those Pronghorn pictures and World Woods Pine Barrens tell me that he or someone on his staff is a real artist.
I also believe that Desmond was a real artist, but the restrictions of "what is golf" did not allow him to become popular in the mainstream.
Now my focus in this discussion has been on the visual of the holes, and how they present to the golfer's eye. Greens could be an entirerly different discussion.
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Mike,
I would disagree with your first two points defining artistic minimalism. I don't think utilizing great bunker shapers (artists in their own right at what they do) negates an architect from being an artist. After all, he's responsible for the final product, and it has to meet his eye visually and functionally or it's get blown up and started again. He's the conductor of the orchestra, unless you want to say that an artist should be able to do the whole thing, planning through construction and grow in singlehandedly?
Also, I think the idea of "finding holes" is really an integral, fundamental part of where the art form lies and is distinguished. Similar to the sculptor who sees "David" in a block of stone, a big part of the artistic process is the vision to see something that others are missing, in this case from simply looking across raw, undisturbed land. The artist not only sees the individual holes, but their linkages, and their interrelationships, as well as their similarities and contrasts, in presenting a thematic, cohesive whole.
I think that's artistically more difficult to do with a minimalist approach. The let's build whatever we want and move enough dirt to do it can certainly lend itself to great artistry, but the incredible exercise in discipline and restraint to only move what you absolutely have to in an effort to uncover and properly display what's already there is to me quite fascinating.
I'll start with Rustic Canyon. I'm not sure if you've played it, or its midwest cousin, Wild Horse, but those are two courses where the architects certainly allow their natural, raw settings to shine through artistically.
I'm sure Tom Doak would likely admit that there's as much art as science employed at "finding holes" on his courses, as well.
All,
As a sidebar, based on the pictures of Old Sandwich, would you call it a minimalistic course? Why or why not?
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Josh and others,
Would OS be in C&C's top-5 best courses they ave designed?
Greats pictures, btw.
Jordan
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Jordan:
My own Coore / Crenshaw top 5 would include (alphabetically :) ) Bandon Trails, Cuscowilla, Friars Head, Kapalua, and Sand Hills. So Old Sandwich would miss out. It's very good, but does not quite hold up with the others, in my opinion.
It's amazing to me how everyone misreads holes based on photos, or just tries to simplify them into something they're not. From what I remember of Old Sandwich, the par-3 pictured earlier (I believe it's the ninth hole) is only a short iron approach to a hard-to-hold target with wings on both sides -- nothing like a reverse Redan. And the ravine on the short par-4 fifth lays much more across the line of flight from the tee, so it's quite different than the holes mentioned at Pasatiempo or Friars Head.
The attempts to make a distinction between craftsmanship and artistry are very interesting to me. I've always thought of the shaping work as craftsmanship, and the artistry could come either from making it fit into the landscape well, or by designing/building something which works well and is a bit different than what you have produced before. (It isn't artistry the second time around.)
Some seem to define artistry as "pretty composition" but to me that's very hollow.
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The attempts to make a distinction between craftsmanship and artistry are very interesting to me. I've always thought of the shaping work as craftsmanship, and the artistry could come either from making it fit into the landscape well, or by designing/building something which works well and is a bit different than what you have produced before. (It isn't artistry the second time around.)
Some seem to define artistry as "pretty composition" but to me that's very hollow.
Tom,
I think that's about exactly what I said and the part about it not being art the second time around is precisely my point here.
It's Sweeney who's from the Fazio "Gotta look good on a wall calendar" school. ;)
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It's Sweeney who's from the Fazio "Gotta look good on a wall calendar" school. ;)
Mr Cirba,
Shall we locate some of those old Bedminster post where you were fawning over The Faz and Donny!. ;)
My thought was that the modern day architect has turned into more of a craftsman as most holes and courses are often variations on what is out there already. This should not be seen a some sort of a shot as a craftsman needs to be very talented to perform his craft. However after looking at the definition, I would change my opinion and say that the modern golf course architect qualifies under 3, 5 and possibly 6.
art¡st;
1. a person who produces works in any of the arts that are primarily subject to aesthetic criteria.
2. a person who practices one of the fine arts, esp. a painter or sculptor.
3. a person whose trade or profession requires a knowledge of design, drawing, painting, etc.: a commercial artist.
4. a person who works in one of the performing arts, as an actor, musician, or singer; a public performer: a mime artist; an artist of the dance.
5. a person whose work exhibits exceptional skill.
6. a person who is expert at trickery or deceit: He's an artist with cards.
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Mike,
I'm surprised you didn't point to #1 as your primary defense to Mr. Doak! ;)
Who said I didn't like Fazio? He does some wonderful, artistic stuff and some absolutely soulless, banal stuff. I think that's one of the risks when you get that big and take on too much at once. The personal touch and creative details are missing much too often, even if they all look pretty.
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I guess when you hold a camera slightly crooked, any green can look bit redan ish. :-\
How many visits must you have or games played to objectively say you like one more than the others etc? First impressions can give you a strong feeling, but hey...
I don't think I have seen enough of their courses enough times to do any ranking, nor would I want to. Only having been once to Old S, Bandon T, Friars H, and Sand H. All I gathered from my first visit to each was I loved them all and want to go back.
These places are full of the natural imperfections that make a course feel old and timeless and help keep things from getting stale.
Josh
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Them Picassos and Monets all look the same, too.
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How many visits must you have or games played to objectively say you like one more than the others etc?
Josh: Good question, and one which I look forward to addressing in a roomful of GOLF DIGEST panelists next weekend.
I guess I would have to go back to the earlier post which posited that one course can be more "artistic" [though I shudder at the use of that term because it is so misunderstood] yet another could be a "better" course. If the ultimate standard is which of the two is the best balanced test of golf, then I guess the latter course should win out.
But I judge them the other way around. It's fine for a course to be well balanced but there must be hundreds of those and I do not think that can ever transcend to the level of "greatness". Those are the 6's and 7's on the Doak scale. What matters to me is whether there's anything good and different to be found on the course, and you can easily discern that on the first visit if you are paying attention. (edit: Of course, it does depend on what order you see the courses ... if you see Old Sandwich before the rest, I'm sure it stands out as very different.) I believe that Bandon Trails and the other courses I named have more of those types of features than Old Sandwich does.
It's possible that a great player would judge Bandon Trails less "fair" or "well balanced" (or less well conditioned, memorable, etc.) as Old Sandwich, but I would think that sort of judgment would require a lot more rounds of golf to assess.
And is that really the most important criterion, anyway? If it is, it implies that whoever figures out the perfect "formula" of design should just repeat it for the rest of their lives, and I detest that implication. To me, the genius loci is a critical part of greatness ... it's the very reason we like to travel and see different courses and compare them.
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Tom Doak,
BRAVO! You've explained that one much more clearly and concisely than my attempt above.
I can see you put some thought into that one. ;)
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I agree with Tom D about OS vs. Sand Hills and Friar's Head. I have not had the pleasure of seeing Bandon Trails yet or Kapalua. I do think, though, that there is a meaningful difference in the level of achievement of OS vs. Hidden Creek. Hidden Creek is lovely and extremely pleasant and understated, but there is something about Old Sandwich that grabs your attention a bit more from the get-go. I actually found it a bit reminiscent of Australia. Did anyone else have that sense?
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I love these pictures so hopefully by bumping this more people will look at them
:)
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Throwback Friday. Often think about Old Sandwich and have trouble with search engine finding this thread. So I am bumping.
Kudos to OS, Sean M, and Coore and Crenshaw on a beauty.
Josh