Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Eric Smith on August 24, 2010, 05:30:05 PM
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(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_2039.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_2040.jpg)
View from the rear of the clubhouse overlooking the Dismal River valley. My photos cannot do justice to the scale and beauty of the property. It is truly the most beautiful, natural environment I have ever seen. And I love a great ocean view, I promise you. What is amazing to me is how many times I was up along a dune ridge and thought to myself, there's gotta be an ocean just over that thing. This happened quite often at Sand Hills as well. Just wonderful being in and amongst these things.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/ViewfromClubhouseDR-1.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/pitDR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_2034.jpg)
After a mile long ride out to Jacks Shack you'll find the golf course in a setting straight from another world.
1
Par 4 412 yards
After catching your breath from the awesomeness, there is a bit of relief in knowing there won't be too much pressure on the opening tee shot -- it is a big, rolling fairway out there. I couldn't help but think this must be what Ireland looks like, or maybe even the vast expanse around the Copernicus crater on the moon -- though I've never been.
I didn't get a good picture of the opening tee shot so we'll have to go to the approach. About a 9 iron (135 yards or so) to a semi blind green saddled between the hill and a large dune. From my position in the middle of the fairway I could see the top of the flagstick, but I recall my playing partners asking what I see from a ways back.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/2ndshot1DR.jpg)
Second shot into 1
Once you climb over the rise at the entrance to the green, you'll find an inviting punchbowl, with the rear to mid portion sloping back to front. Green speed was very quick, but manageable. I'm guessing 11 on the stimp meter. And they were as pure as the driven snow.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/behind1greenDR.jpg)
Behind 1 green
2
Par 4 445 yards
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1894.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/2ndat2DR.jpg)
From about 185 yards out. The green is down the hill behind and to the left of the little bunker you see on the right.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1811.jpg)
2 green. Balls played off the hill short left funneled down on to the green.
3
Par 3 150 yards
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/3DR.jpg)
This was a fairly easy green to hit, I think it played shorter than the yardage on the card -- maybe the wind...
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1813.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1814.jpg)
The green at 3 I do recall being lightning fast. This green is exposed to some mighty wind.
4
Par 5 498 yards
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/AC4TEEDR.jpg)
Love this hole. It has a generous fairway off the tee and the second shot allows even more room than the tee shot. Player has several options from the fairway. The big sticks will go at the green, where from the left hand side there is a windmill to contend with on the direct route! We tried to bang-a-gong, but struck out. JK hit the best second shot here, taking it left of the windmill and ended up with a putt from the collar of the green for eagle. There is another neat little feature out in the right side of the fairway -- a cattle rub, though I don't find that I have a picture.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/2nd4DR.jpg)
2nd at 4
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/ACapproachingthe4thDR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1821.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/cloudsover4DR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DR4-1.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DR4.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1665.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/the4thDR-1.jpg)
If you do lay up to the right, like Mac in the photo below, you'll have a good look at a green that is receptive to a run up shot. I putted from way out on this one as well as many of the remaining holes.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1830.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1835.jpg)
The green at 4 has sort of a 'T' shape in the front portion, kind of like a nose is the best I can describe it, with fall offs on both sides of the ridge that feed the balls into the 'nostrils'. With a front pin, being on this green is no guarantee of a two putt. Wish I had a pic. The ball really motors on and around this feature and is one of the quirkier seen on the trip.
5
Par 3 145 yards
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/5DR.jpg)
Tough little bastard of a tee shot as I never hit this green. I love how you can see it and it's ever present bunker from back at #3 and while playing #4. It is a beautiful feature - a great little hole. Another lesson in deception here too. So many times on this trip my eyes were fooled by the distance to carry these dunes ridges and bunkers. Always I thought a ball looked to be short, yet carried them. I may need glasses because I was always wrong.
There is a chipping area behind the green that keeps the long shot in play, which is smart maintenance and design in my book as I saw more than one get up and down from here. Let's play, not look for balls in the wooga!
6
Par 4 313 yards
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/DismalRiver6.jpg)
Another hole with tons of room, but you don't feel that so much on the tee. It isn't until you get around the fronting sand ridge that you begin to see the whole fairway. The approach shot is similar in appearance to the tee shot just played at 5, though only half the distance. A tiny green nestled within another punchbowl. I drove this green from the forward tees in an afternoon 2 man scramble. Lots of fun. One of my favorites out here.
7
Par 4 437 yards
Though I didn't capture a photo from the tee, you can see where it is located in the picture above in the upper left hand portion of the photo. it is probably the second most elevated tee shot on the golf course (with 18 Black being the highest). A dog leg left with some deep, nasty bunkers on the inside of the dog leg.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/2nd7DR.jpg)
2nd shot at 7
8
Par 4 265 yards
I can't believe I don't have pics from 8. A driveable par 4 where if you are going for it, your tee shot must pretty much take the direct route over the field of bunkers OR you can choose to ride the dune line along the right side, allowing the ball to disappear over the ridge and hoping for it to bounce back down and onto the putting surface. I tried the latter on my first time around and my ball never came back down. :( One of us did manage to find the putting surface from the tee during another round and I barely missed in our third round, missing pin high but leaving it in the rough to the left of the green. The player who lays up on this hole does have a rather boring mid iron to play out to the left fairway. Between it and the green complex is a swath of gnarly wooga and sand bunkers that probably house a population of snakes and ProV1's.
9
Par 5 590 yards
Again, no pics? ??? Well here is one -- 9 is the downhill hole in the background (4 in the foreground).
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1667.jpg)
A long winding down hill par 5 with a fairway that cants right to left, yet dog legs left to right. ( I think there was a thread on these type holes recently.) One of the hole's redeeming qualities is it is the lone spot on the golf course with cell service! The tee is set on top of the dunes with views for miles and miles in all directions. One of the highlights of our stay was being able to witness an approaching storm on the horizon with plenty of sinister looking dark clouds and lightning to dazzle us with.
I wish I had a photo of the green because it is really beautiful -- a classic looking design with some deep fronting bunkers that pinch the entry to a shallow, tiered green with a small tongue wrapped around the front left bunker. It made for some fun plays on third shots to get the ball over to that hole location.
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10
Par 3 167 yards
Now this is QUIRK at it's best. I loved this hole. It is definitely different than any I have played, but no less of a quality hole because of it's odd ball-ness.
Really from the tee you have no clue what you are about to see.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/DismalRiver10tee.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/green10DR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/10greenDR.jpg)
You can putt from the front of the green, up over the crest on the left and see your ball funnel around the bowl and with the right speed, snuggle up within a few feet of the hole.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1678.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1679.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1681.jpg)
11
Par 4 398 yards
No photo from the tee, but it is a straight away par 4 with a pretty mean cross bunker at the front right entrance to the fairway.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1684.jpg)
The second shot needs to avoid falling away left as the fairway drops off to the left and a deep bunker will swallow up balls that do not carry the green surface.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/2nd11DR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1907.jpg)
Looking back to the tee.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/11DRlookingbacktotee.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/approaching11greenDR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1686.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1916.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/11greenDR.jpg)
This is a huge green with a ton of pinnable locations to choose from. After studying this green over multiple plays I think it shows just how good Nicklaus' team can design greens. In no way are they rudimentary here at Dismal River. This green would be a lot of fun to spend time practicing on. Nothing too wild or severe, this green just sits well with the land, has some nice movement within it and allows you to have a chance to roll in a long putt. A favorite corner of the property for me no doubt.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1917.jpg)
Great green.
12
Par 5 536 yards
A beauty. The fairway snakes in and out of the dunes as you tee off from on top of the dune ridge and play down and back up the gentle rise to the green site. From the right side of the fairway you'll never see the green and likely won't see the large bunker complex on the right either.
On my first play I did just that, tee shot to the right portion of the fairway, smoked 2 wood over the dunes to the right, finding my ball in the wooga right of the green and no shot at holding the approach.
I did however learn that there was a lot more room out to the right, basically in line with the fronting dune that hides the green from the fairway. So on my last play I took the 2 wood again on that same aggressive line with a draw this time and when we arrived at the green there was my ball, resting 12 feet from the hole.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/12TEEDR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/2nd12DR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/12DRfrombehind.jpg)
13
Par 4 379 yards
The 13th hole is undergoing a major facelift, though the work doesn't currently affect play.
Tee shot
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/13TEEDR.jpg)
Second shot from left side of the fairway. Note the new green growing in down to the left.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1929.jpg)
This bunker will become the center line bunker of a massive 120 yard wide fairway.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1931.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1932.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1937.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1938.jpg)
The fairway of the current (second?) iteration of the hole is maybe too narrow?, with the right to left cant allowing balls to run through the fairway into the left rough. So they have seeded an additional 50 to 60 yards or so to the left and will apparently merge the two into one enormous fairway with a new green down below that is pushed back perhaps another 30 yards...
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1948.jpg)
...back towards where the original green was located and only steps away from the next tee box.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1957.jpg)
The current green, a peanut shape, with the future green in the background.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1945.jpg)
14
Par 4 441 yards
One mean bitch. Big fairway, lots of room off the tee, even though you don't see how much is there beyond the dune right.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/14TeeDR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/2nd14DR.jpg)
You're going to want to keep your second shot out to the left, a long iron most likely, because anything leaking right will feed down the escalator to hell where the Dismal Devil will burn you into submission if you step foot in his own version of Hell bunker. I think I saw flames coming up from the floor.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1962.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1963-1.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1964.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/14frombehindDR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1960.jpg)
15
Par 3 171 yards
A gas of a hole. It looks and plays fast. Kind of like a race track banking around the massive dune wall on the left. Dare I say it has Redan qualities? A play up the right side is definitely going to funnel back to the left rear of the green.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/15teeDR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1701.jpg)
16
Par 4 402 yards
A dog leg right with a high banking slope on the far side of the fairway that gives some turbo propulsion to a well struck tee shot, though the best line is to play off of the right side, challenging the inside bunker where you'll find a view of the green awaiting. From the other side, all you'll see is a dune with a gnarly bunker cut into it followed by another with the same.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1970.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/2nd16DR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1979.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1982.jpg)
Another really nice green, laid naturally over the terrain.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/16greenDismalRiver.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/16greenDRMacJohn.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1980.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1990.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/16DR.jpg)
17
Par 4 428 yards
The 17th is a hole where the Dismal Devil would love to add another bogey to your round if you aren't paying attention. It doesn't play quite as long as the card says and you can take an aggressive line at the dog leg and get on down the fairway with a solid tee shot.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1991.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/AC17DR.jpg)
But you better be sure you know your carry distance. if you don't clear the dog leg, these bunkers can wreck your scorecard.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1996.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1994.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1997.jpg)
An inviting green giving the player plenty of room to bring it in the front door.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_2001-1.jpg)
You feel so small on this hole, being next to the towering sand hills just off the fairway to the right.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_2003.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1733.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/17from17DR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/17greenDR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DRflowers.jpg)
A new 18 tee is just a few steps off of the back of this green.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1738.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1743.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1741.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1747.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1758.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_2005.jpg)
What a beautiful hole that leads you to your final test.
18
Par 5 500 yards (580 Black tees)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/18fromteebehind17DR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1750.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/BlackTEEsign18DR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/18DRBLACKTEE.jpg)
I climbed the highest dune to the right of the black and took this shot. The wind in my ear reminded me of parasailing. A spiritual moment for sure.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/18DRfromhighestpoint.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/18DR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/fromfwy18DR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_2020.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1785.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1783.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_2021.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/frontof18greenDR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/blindness18greenDR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_2028.jpg)
Clubhouse
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_2035.jpg)
Cabins
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/CABINSDISMAL.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DismalRivercabins.jpg)
I loved Dismal River. On this trip, we played Ballyneal, Wild Horse and Sand Hills. All were incredible. All were unique. Call me crazy, but for now, I consider Dismal River to be my favorite course ever played. It stirred my soul.
I hope you enjoyed the tour and I hope you have some questions.
I'll check back later.
Eric
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Eric,
Thank you for the photo-essay. The course looks amazing and its hard to understand why it doesn't get more acclaim. Many of those pictures put to rest the notion that Jack can't build wild greens.
The best part of the whole thing was talking to you when you got back and hearing the pure happiness in your voice as you described your trip and Dismal River, in particular.
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Crazy
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I love the shot from the high dune on 18. It's inspiring, truly.
I would rather read this thread than the multitude that rip courses to shreds any day.
Thanks for taking the time to post.
WW
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Thanks for the pics.
If Dismal River had been first in the area, would it be held in higher regard?
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Eric...
Great photos!!!
I find myself dying to get back out there right this very second!!!
Thanks for sharing. 8)
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Eric,
What are some of the top courses you've played that by definition are second to DR? Is Dismal River a Doak 10?
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Jim:
Interestingly enough, I am reading your book right now. I can totally relate to a lot of what I have read so far.
But if I am ever back in the area of Mullen, NB, I will play Sand Hills 100 times out of 100.
'Nuf said.
;)
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Eric,
What are some of the top courses you've played that by definition are second to DR? Is Dismal River a Doak 10?
Jim,
I think he put that in there just to challenge your manhood, specifically.
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Jim,
I don't have to rank golf courses and I won't do it on this thread. The Doak scale is not my scale and I wouldn't want to try to fit my preferences to any one else's much less fit someone else's to mine.
I said I loved it and it is my favorite played to date.
But thanks for asking.
Do you think you'll give Dismal River a look some time? I hope you do.
Eric
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Impressive for a Nicklaus track. Not usually a fan of blind uphill par 3's, but #4 at Dismal looks like a cracker...especially if the wind is up! Very green. Is that due to heavy rain, being juiced, or a combination of the two. The routing and quality of the holes looks pretty sout from the arm-chair. From your high regard for it Eric, it must play as nicely as it looks. Any caddie program there?
Adam, please IM me when you get a chance. It's been eons since we last spoke!
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But if I am ever back in the area of Mullen, NB, I will play Sand Hills 100 times out of 100.
'Nuf said.
;)
Isnt that a Doak 6?
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Jim,
I don't have to rank golf courses and I won't do it on this thread. The Doak scale is not my scale and I wouldn't want to try to fit my preferences to any one else's much less fit someone else's to mine.
I said I loved it and it is my favorite played to date.
But thanks for asking.
Do you think you'll give Dismal River a look some time? I hope you do.
Eric
Eric,
I was simply asking to find out what other courses you've played, for context purposes. Have you been out to Bandon?
That's really high praise so my antenna is definitely up. Who knows if I'll ever make it out that way. Interestingly enough, I was driving right through Mullen this afternoon looking for a place to play since we got rained out at Prairie Club (the same weekend you were supposed to come out to BN). Had a chance to play Dismal but we kept on driving. The course has been open for a few years and I hadn't heard anything even remotely positive until your post the other day.
Jim
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I guess you missed Adam's posts after he got home. There have been changes, positive changes--most importantly new ownership.
Wish I was in Mullen today.
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Impressive for a Nicklaus track. Not usually a fan of blind uphill par 3's, but #4 at Dismal looks like a cracker...especially if the wind is up! Very green. Is that due to heavy rain, being juiced, or a combination of the two. The routing and quality of the holes looks pretty sout from the arm-chair. From your high regard for it Eric, it must play as nicely as it looks. Any caddie program there?
Kris,
I don't know about caddies. The course still lacks walking trails off of the tees down to the fairways. It wouldn't be much tougher to walk than Sand Hills with them in place imo. I would imagine that their membership will someday want these paths, just like I would imagine that someday they will create them.
But for now, you'd have to walk along the cart trails around the dunes -- think 1 at Sand Hills from the fairway to the back of the green. That would suck to have to walk that route to the green!
Eric
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With all due respect, if this were designed by Mr. Doak or Coore/Crenshaw, wouldn't this course get a lot more love around here...
Dismal River looks AWESOME!
Sand Hills and Ballyneal looks great as well, and I am not comparing, but I guess I don't understand why DR gets no love. Can someone help me out?
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Eric:
I am glad you had a good time. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask why you said it was your favorite golf course to date. What made it more enjoyable to you than your other favorites and what are those other favorites? You said that you had been to Sand Hills and Ballyneal; what did you like more about your experience at Dismal than at those other courses?
Thanks for teaching us about your point of view.
Bart
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Eric,
Thanks for the great photos and review. Your enthusiasm for DR is palpable and I'll definitely have to consider seeking the course out should I ever be fortunate enough to be in Nebraska again.
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My friend invited me out to his course and I made the trip out. Then some more courses were added, which happened to be the region's two heavyweights!!
I had no expectations when getting to Dismal River. We'd just played Ballyneal the day before and at dinner that night I stepped out on the bocce ball lawn and called my good friend Jason Jones and went on and on about how much I loved BN!
The next two days we were at Dismal River and I just loved the boldness of the place, the epic scale of the place and quite frankly the 'discovery'. I thought this place was supposed to suck?! Who knew it was this great?
Then two days at Sand Hills.... awesome Sand Hills! It was terrific, so cool, so beautiful! But I told the guys, I told Tim Bert in an email, that I missed DR. I can't help it....I love the place. It is my preference and that is that.
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My understanding is that DR in its earlier forms was quite penal and exacting and in significant wind became almost unplayable. I've never been there, but I'm interested if most of the changes made were geared towards softening the course overall and making it more manageable especially in heavier winds. Has anyone played the course both pre and post changes? I believe Adam has from reading earlier posts.
As for the photos, very cool! Thanks for posting, I hadn't seen most of the holes before aside from the course's website. Hopefully someday I'll make it out there, I really enjoy the look of the prairie courses.
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Eric, there is no reason to be defensive. If everyone's opinion was the same, this would be a boring place. I am glad that someone around here is standing up for this place.
I, for one, would love it if you went in a little deeper. What exactly did you love? Was it the strategy off the tee? The greens? The general surroundings?
Inquiring minds want to know...
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Eric...
I agree with the sentiment of your last post.
We played some absolutely incredible golf courses on this trip. As you know, due to my ridiculous over-analysis I rank all of the courses I play and three of the courses we played on that trip are within the Top 10 of my favorite golf courses. That makes for an off-the-charts amazing golf trip. Frankly, there was no weak sister. I would make the massive trip across the country to play anyone of those 3 courses without including any of the others...the golf and the experience was simply that good.
The kicker (and the reason I am glad you posted this thread and those pictures) is that everyone knows that Sand Hills and Ballyneal are amazing golf courses, but Dismal gets/got no love. I think it is worthy, at a minimium, of consideration for a game. If it turns out to be half as much for others as it was for me (or you), it will be worth people's time.
Thanks again for posting those pictures...well except for the picture of me bending over on the 3rd green...talk about an ass shot!!! Thanks, pal! :)
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Not being defensive fellas! I am typing on my iPhone at dinner!! Can't make compound sentences on this thing. I'll try to check in later from home.
Eric
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I regret that DR has been open now a few years, and all I have to go on is the on-going photos that I have been looking at since before construction commenced. One of the ongoing concerns I have had from photos over the course of the grow-in and maturing, was the look and what appeared to be a problem area with the waste area to left of 18FW as wide or wider than the FW.
But, these latest photos clearly show that area filling in with vegitation, giving it a better look, and probably better drainage field. I still think it is a little distracting the way the service road and cart path cross and detract from the FW entry. But, this is so much better than the early photos.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/18DRfromhighestpoint.jpg)
Eric, your photos are very good, and I appreciate the way you seem to have captured some very intriquing green contours and settings. Nice job.
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I must say, the Big Guy in the brown shirt - one hot dude!
;)
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Eric:
1. How wide (estimate) is the beginning of the 18th fairway? Looks claustrophobically small to me. I'm guessing that it is just the scale of the giant sand area or else masked by the slope of the fairway but would like some confirmation.
2. I can't wait to play Pacific Dunes with you in March. If you miss Dismal River while I am dazzling you with my shotmaking skills, I might shove you into the ocean.
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Eric:
1. How wide (estimate) is the beginning of the 18th fairway? Looks claustrophobically small to me. I'm guessing that it is just the scale of the giant sand area or else masked by the slope of the fairway but would like some confirmation.
2. I can't wait to play Pacific Dunes with you in March. If you miss Dismal River while I am dazzling you with my shotmaking skills, I might shove you into the ocean.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1750.jpg)
Well Tim, as you can see here, John Kavanaugh (who is a big dude) doesn't block out the fairway from the tee in my photo, so I estimate it to be around 50-60 yards wide. :D
Pacific Dunes -- it's been a dream forever. Can't wait either!
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>John Kavanaugh (who is a big dude) doesn't block out the fairway from the tee in my photo, so I estimate it to be around 50-60 yards wide. Cheesy
Wow, based upon the size of John's head, I was going to say the fairway was at LEAST 100 yards wide!
LOL.
;)
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DR is on a great piece of land aka the hole sand hills area. I have always put it in wrong architectural firm for the site. It could have been first or 33rd in the area. I wonder if the current group post Sebonack might not have done this job a little different.
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Tiger,
What don't you like about the course, specifically?
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Eric,
Thanks for posting the pictures. I haven't been on this DG very long, but have been an onlooker for a few years, so it's a bit of a mystery to me why this course hasn't a higher profile. I had never even heard of it. Why? Are people here too dismissive of certain architects?
It looks stunning, and the par 3s appear wonderful, judging by your pictures.
Is this Nicklaus' best work to date?
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Eric, there is no reason to be defensive. If everyone's opinion was the same, this would be a boring place. I am glad that someone around here is standing up for this place.
I, for one, would love it if you went in a little deeper. What exactly did you love? Was it the strategy off the tee? The greens? The general surroundings?
Inquiring minds want to know...
Hey Rich,
Let me try to give you some more.
I loved that the golf course isn't afraid to present the golfer with so many blind and semi-blind golf shots. The thrill of playing blind shots is one I haven't had a lot of experience with, but nevertheless have had a fondness for for some time.
More than one punchbowl green. Hell I think there are four of them. The golf course is tough enough. The respite of getting your ball over a ridge and finding the punchbowl feels like quite an accomplishment. Then you have these great greens to putt on. I consider myself a good putter and when I am putting well I can see the ball going in the hole before I putt. Here you can see the ball going in. They are smooth and quick and wonderful fun.
Quirk. DR has it. Nicklaus wasn't afraid to build it. I applaud him for going with the unexpected.
Some examples:
Blindness -- already mentioned
A windmill in direct line of play
Green design at 4 - different
Hole 5 - different. Blind green with the beautiful bunker plopped into the middle of the saddle
Hole 8- 265 yard par 4
Hole 10 - wild green with a bunker in the middle of it
Hole 14 - the sloping fairway in front of the green that tumbles down to the massive bunker cut out from the hillside
Hole 18 - Awe inspiring elevated tee, then straight uphill, enormous waste bunker, big intimidating fairway bunker, totally blind green, tame jack rabbits
I mentioned before, 'the discovery'. This is probably the heart of the matter. The place is so raw, so unknown, still, it felt like we were discovering something new -- something great.
Why raters bash it I don't know and could really care less. I do feel, Rich, that a guy like you, a guy who goes on golf trips to 'discover' great golf, would enjoy a trip out to Dismal River. And if you go, I'd love to tag along.
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I think the pictures of this course look really, really good. You would never guess it is a Nicklaus course based on them. I have a questions/comments based on the pictures.
1. Does the course play truly firm and first (because it looks quite green and lush)?
2. In comparing this course to Ballyneal, the fairways at DR seem to be much tamer. Is that the nature of the dunes at DR or could the Nicklaus team not resist bringing in the equipment to smooth things out a little?
3. The par 3s seem to all fall within a narrow band for distance (145-175 yards). Do they play substantially different lengths due to topography or wind. While I applaud the short, uphill, blind par 3 it seems DR needs a longer par 3 in the mix too.
4. I would look to see more fairway cut, especially around the greens. Sometimes that first cut of rough seemed jarring in the pictures. Does that first cut limit the ground game options around the green?
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Steve,
Your point number 4 hits the point that jumped out at me. It seems if you miss a green laterally, there is very little opportunity for a bump-and-run or putt.
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Eric,
How recent was this trip? Was this after the most recent changes? If so, was it the changes that made it so much better?
I have not been to Dismal River, but it does look very nice from the pictures. I would think this course would be in higher regard if it would not be for Sand Hills next door.
Paul
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Tiger, what do you think that the crew would have done differently if they had done DR after Sebonack?
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I thought Dismal River was finished, either right after, or about the same time as Sebonack? Also I think they finished Creighton Farms near Washington DC about that same time with some of the same folks at Nicklaus Design working a little on all three????
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Easy,
Thanks for the spread! Dismal looks great and some of the green contours look like a lot of fun. I think it's cool that there are 2 courses in the same neighborhood that have a similar makeup, but are different from one another.
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The pictures turned out great. Thank you very much for sharing!
Mark
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thank you for posting.
I have been very harsh on Dismal after my trip there, but hardly reconise some of the holes from your pictures.
The middle of the front nine...the tough par three and short apr four.....where dreadful..but have grassed in very nicley.
I still think there are too many blindshots early in the round..but I look forwrad to returning now I have seen your thread.
I would not have ever gone back if you had not posted.
Dont you think the cabins and clubhouse area are superb?
I loved that part of the place...top notch accomodation and food to match.
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I agree with Michael that your photos make me want to go back and give it another try. DR had some problems that began with JN saying he had never seen Sand Hills and was not interested in doing so - that was a ridiculous statement considering he had the opportunity to go a couple of miles down the road and see what is considered by many to be the finest course built in the last 25 years. Another problem was opening the course too soon when the maintenance was not yet dialed in. Some of the initial criticism of the design were apparently valid as there has been some significant redesign. I hope they have smoothed over their relations with SH.
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Beautiful pictures, Eric. The changing sky in the Sand Hills is to die for. Golf course looks nice too.
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I think the pictures of this course look really, really good. You would never guess it is a Nicklaus course based on them. I have a questions/comments based on the pictures.
1. Does the course play truly firm and first (because it looks quite green and lush)?
2. In comparing this course to Ballyneal, the fairways at DR seem to be much tamer. Is that the nature of the dunes at DR or could the Nicklaus team not resist bringing in the equipment to smooth things out a little?
3. The par 3s seem to all fall within a narrow band for distance (145-175 yards). Do they play substantially different lengths due to topography or wind. While I applaud the short, uphill, blind par 3 it seems DR needs a longer par 3 in the mix too.
4. I would look to see more fairway cut, especially around the greens. Sometimes that first cut of rough seemed jarring in the pictures. Does that first cut limit the ground game options around the green?
Steve,
Let me try to answer your questions.
1. Firm and fast yes. As firm and fast as Ballyneal was. No. That course was brick hard...wonderful fun. DR wasn't soft though, either. The grass, though fescue as well, was a different 'blend' I would guess. Balls would run out plenty on the fairways. Definitely greener there at DR. My pics of SH show a green golf course as well, and it was certainly firm and fast too. But there's no question in my mind that BN was the firmest of the three courses. SH greens -- fastest ever played. period!
2. I don't know the definitive answer to this question. There are some fairways that lie at the foot of some really big sand hills and are more of a prairie field type of landscape. But there are a lot more holes with rolls and bulges and speed slots and crevasses.
3. My yardages posted were from the square tees, about 6650 yards or so. There are many teeing areas and most, if not all of the par 3's can stretch to near 200 yards.
4. I would like to see the same, and mentioned it while we played the course. They have begun mowing down more of the rough on the outside of the primary cut, and I hope that they will eventually begin to mow out more of the fairway cut around the greens, like they have behind 5. It would be great to see the hillside to the right of 8 green, completely cut down to fairway height to allow all shots off of the dune ridge to bound down onto the putting surface, allowing the golfer to be able to realize more eagle and birdie opportunities on this neat little par 4.
Yes, I think you do have to play more chip shots around the greens here than at the other courses played.
Eric
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It's pretty difficult to determine the greatness of this golf course (or any golf course) from the photographs supplied, but they are very evocative of the Sand Hills experience. The drive from North Platte to Mullen is an amazing experience. When you get within 20 miles of Mullen, as far as the eye can see on either side of the two-lane road, one sees golf course after golf course...except there are no golf courses. It's all natural blow-out bunkers and high grass. An absolutely eye-popping experience, much like one gets when approaching Prairie Dunes, but the scale of it is out of this world. I'll add DR to the itinerary next time, on the basis of these photographs, even though I don't harbor any hope that it's nearly as great as Sand Hills, which is still my all time favorite golf experience, even better than Cypress Point.
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Some examples:
Blindness -- already mentioned
A windmill in direct line of play
Green design at 4 - different
Hole 5 - different. Blind green with the beautiful bunker plopped into the middle of the saddle
Hole 8- 265 yard par 4
Hole 10 - wild green with a bunker in the middle of it
Hole 14 - the sloping fairway in front of the green that tumbles down to the massive bunker cut out from the hillside
Hole 18 - Awe inspiring elevated tee, then straight uphill, enormous waste bunker, big intimidating fairway bunker, totally blind green, tame jack rabbits
Eric:
I'm not a rater [well, sort of] and I am not here to bash Dismal River. I just find it funny that your list of the things you liked best about the course is almost identical to my list of the things I liked LEAST about it ... except that I would put a question mark after each item on your list!
So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Some examples:
Blindness -- already mentioned
A windmill in direct line of play
Green design at 4 - different
Hole 5 - different. Blind green with the beautiful bunker plopped into the middle of the saddle
Hole 8- 265 yard par 4
Hole 10 - wild green with a bunker in the middle of it
Hole 14 - the sloping fairway in front of the green that tumbles down to the massive bunker cut out from the hillside
Hole 18 - Awe inspiring elevated tee, then straight uphill, enormous waste bunker, big intimidating fairway bunker, totally blind green, tame jack rabbits
Eric:
I'm not a rater [well, sort of] and I am not here to bash Dismal River. I just find it funny that your list of the things you liked best about the course is almost identical to my list of the things I liked LEAST about it ... except that I would put a question mark after each item on your list!
So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Tom:
Why don't you like tame jack rabbits? ;D
Just a thought: If this list is identical to what you don't like about Dismal River, then maybe the design is Jack's expressing himself as the anti-Doak since it was just after your collaboration? [I know you've always said on here that you take no credit for the design at DR].
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Eric:
Others have told me that those greens were Jack's [or Chris Cochran's] take on trying to do some of the same things in our work at Sebonack that he thought people liked ... perhaps instead of the kind of stuff he himself likes.
But all of that is speculation, just like yours. You'd have to ask Jack himself what he was trying to do and why.
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i hope i can get back there next year..
i played it the first year it was opened, so it would be interesting to see the changes
i thought that 10 green would be changed, but i guess not....iimho it just seemed to have everything but the kitchen sink in it.....
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paul,
I agree I personally thought that the green on number 10 was one of the factors in my initial reaction that the course truly lived up to he first of its two names!
I had a major objection to not knowing
1. That a bunker excisted in that position...and 2.That there was the majority of the green blind some thirty yards beyond what the eye could see.
I dont think that will be one of the factors I will see any improvemnet upon ;D
That been said I thought some of the holes were wonderful..the finishing three I loved..but that short par four on the front at the time I was thre, was not even a short par four and that stupid landing area low and left was the onle way to play the hole, from where you were 100% blind...not only to the green, but from what I could see to the entire world ;D
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Paul Jones:
Yes it was a recent visit, just last week. They tell me it is because of the changes that the gc is so much better.
My member friend would like to host a group next season. I hope you can make it out to see for yourself.
Eric
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Great stuff, Eric. Does the course favor any shot-shape?
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Not one shot shape is preferred. Jack got away from that tag years ago. Due to the changes ground options are now even more of an option in many holes.
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Jim,
I don't have to rank golf courses and I won't do it on this thread. The Doak scale is not my scale and I wouldn't want to try to fit my preferences to any one else's much less fit someone else's to mine.
I said I loved it and it is my favorite played to date.
But thanks for asking.
Do you think you'll give Dismal River a look some time? I hope you do.
Eric
CLASS
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With all due respect, if this were designed by Mr. Doak or Coore/Crenshaw, wouldn't this course get a lot more love around here...
Dismal River looks AWESOME!
Sand Hills and Ballyneal looks great as well, and I am not comparing, but I guess I don't understand why DR gets no love. Can someone help me out?
+1
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Really wonderful pictures. Thanks for posting. DR looks fantastic.
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With all due respect, if this were designed by Mr. Doak or Coore/Crenshaw, wouldn't this course get a lot more love around here...
Dismal River looks AWESOME!
Sand Hills and Ballyneal looks great as well, and I am not comparing, but I guess I don't understand why DR gets no love. Can someone help me out?
+1
Not sure I agree with you Jordan. There was a lot of hype and buzz surrounding this course before it opened. Search the archives and you'll dig up a lot of anticipation. It sounds like they had some growing pains that turned people off, but from the looks of it, are heading in the right direction.
Jim
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One designer's QUIRK is another's failed attempt to copy?
That said I can see the differnece between the courses bing compared and would be hard pressed to place DR in the class of the others based solely on visual appeal and playing charatceistics that have been discussed/reported.
TD and C&C do seem to have a special knack for bleeding the planted grasses into the natural landscape in a softer more pleasing manner... and that is not a knock on DR or Nicklaus/Corcoran.
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Really wonderful pictures. Thanks for posting. DR looks fantastic.
Jim,
Thanks. Would you believe all were taken with my iPhone4? I am amazed how much Apple improved their camera from the horrible one in my first iPhone. My better camera quit working at Wild Horse and I was bummed. I love it when a plan comes together. ;)
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Really wonderful pictures. Thanks for posting. DR looks fantastic.
Jim,
Thanks. Would you believe all were taken with my iPhone4? I am amazed how much Apple improved their camera from the horrible one in my first iPhone. My better camera quit working at Wild Horse and I was bummed. I love it when a plan comes together. ;)
Pfft...what do you know about cameras? >:(
Nothing beats the one I use!!! ::)
What is the saying?...you can talk trash about a man's wife, his job, and his weight...but don't say anything about his choice of cameras. Isn't that right? Maybe instead of camera it is favorite golf course, but maybe not.
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Great pics, Eric. Now I really wish I'd made it a day early to play there with you guys. Looks like a fun track. And, I can say that the view from the clubhouse is really fantastic.
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Dismal River is a terrific course in great shape. The experience is simply outstanding. Jack was just out and spent a few hours in a late night Q and A at the firepit. Every hole is epic and not a weak one in the bunch! Every shot/every club. The food and lodging are world class.
Attention to detail is a priority. An example, each of the 2,800 irrigation heads have been calibrated, one by one.
Hard, Fast, and Green!
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Chris...
welcome aboard!!
I agree with you that Dismal is awesome stuff.
Could you answer a few quick questions?
When is the new green on 14 going to fully come on-line? Will the current green still be maintained and used periodically?
It looks like there was a new tee box and fairway coming in on 6. Will that be an additional tee box or are y'all moving the existing ones to over there?
Again, you've got a great course and an amazing club.
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Dismal River is a terrific course in great shape. The experience is simply outstanding. Jack was just out and spent a few hours in a late night Q and A at the firepit. Every hole is epic and not a weak one in the bunch! Every shot/every club. The food and lodging are world class.
Attention to detail is a priority. An example, each of the 2,800 irrigation heads have been calibrated, one by one.
Hard, Fast, and Green!
Welcome to GCA Chris!
I'm assuming you are the same Chris Johnston we met at Dismal River on my visit last week with John Kavanaugh?
The night we stayed there, I emailed my wife the picture I took of your dogs while we were out playing. They are really beautiful dogs! So the next day she tells me that she and the kids had decided our next dog will be a BMD.
Here's the pic.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMALDOGS.jpg)
Kudos Chris -- to you and your team for doing a fantastic job out there. I wish you much success and I can't wait to get back out again next year.
Eric
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Dismal River is a terrific course in great shape. The experience is simply outstanding. Jack was just out and spent a few hours in a late night Q and A at the firepit. Every hole is epic and not a weak one in the bunch! Every shot/every club. The food and lodging are world class.
Attention to detail is a priority. An example, each of the 2,800 irrigation heads have been calibrated, one by one.
Hard, Fast, and Green!
Welcome to GCA. For those of us that have not met you, what is your affiliation with the club?
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Dismal River is a terrific course in great shape. The experience is simply outstanding. Jack was just out and spent a few hours in a late night Q and A at the firepit. Every hole is epic and not a weak one in the bunch! Every shot/every club. The food and lodging are world class.
Attention to detail is a priority. An example, each of the 2,800 irrigation heads have been calibrated, one by one.
Hard, Fast, and Green!
Welcome to GCA. For those of us that have not met you, what is your affiliation with the club?
A quick Google search (us kids and our technology) says he is an owner.
Here is a link to a recent Brad Klein article where Chris is quoted (including a very compelling picture at the top):
http://www.golfweek.com/news/2010/aug/16/unique-look-golf-nebraska/
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Chris...
welcome aboard!!
I agree with you that Dismal is awesome stuff.
Could you answer a few quick questions?
When is the new green on 14 going to fully come on-line? Will the current green still be maintained and used periodically?
It looks like there was a new tee box and fairway coming in on 6. Will that be an additional tee box or are y'all moving the existing ones to over there?
Again, you've got a great course and an amazing club.
A few answers in one place...We are slowly growing in a new fairway and green on 13. It won't come on line until next spring. When completed, we will unplug the exiisting green for rework and grow it in over next year. Then, we will use both greens for the hole as both are too good.
The tee on 6 will be moved down to the valley towards 7 fairway. The tees will then be a bit more remote. We also plan to change 18 by moving the green and shortening the hole a bit. It will be a stunning 500+ yard uphill par five into the prevailing wind with a view of the green the entire way. For the earlier question, the fairway on 18 is quite wide - almost 60 yards!
I am the CEO and managing shareholder of Dismal. Like our neighbors, we allow limited access to the club for those who love and respect the game. We believe great golf should be shared as long as our Members aren't impacted.
Those of you who don't have a member to bring you...
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Thanks for the pictures and updates fellas. I'm glad to see DR moving in the right direction it seems. The sand hills are indeed a magical place. Living only a few hours away makes this compelling - I may have to try and get up there soon.
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Chris, Are there any arguments that could be made to save the existing 18th green?
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Great pictures Eric...thank you for sharing. I have been intrigued by this course for some time, and especially after the changes were made. I'm really missing living in Denver....would have been a nice road trip to take one weekend. the course looks fantastic, and great to hear that it plays fun and well too!
Chris - beautiful dogs! I wish I could have my girl with me at work and out on the course!
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Chris, Are there any arguments that could be made to save the existing 18th green?
Adam - probably not. I believe the hole, while very good today, will be enhanced by the changes.
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How far apart are Sand Hills, Dismal River, Prairie Club, and Wild Horse? Seems like a great road trip through Nebraska. What would be the ideal itinerary?
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Dismal River is a terrific course in great shape. The experience is simply outstanding. Jack was just out and spent a few hours in a late night Q and A at the firepit. Every hole is epic and not a weak one in the bunch! Every shot/every club. The food and lodging are world class.
Attention to detail is a priority. An example, each of the 2,800 irrigation heads have been calibrated, one by one.
Hard, Fast, and Green!
Chris - Welcome to the site. I've read a couple comments that imply that Dismal would be a very difficult walk. I also read another comment that Dismal would not be that much more difficult to walk than Sand Hills except for the fact that walking paths haven't been cut in many cases.
I'd love to hear your comments on the walkability of Dismal River. Are there any plans in the near future to create any such walking paths, or is that just not a priority for the existing membership?
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How far apart are Sand Hills, Dismal River, Prairie Club, and Wild Horse? Seems like a great road trip through Nebraska. What would be the ideal itinerary?
I think SH and DR are quite close, within half hour or so of each other. PC is about an hour north, and WH is about an hour and a half or so southeast.
All quite close together and would indeed make a great trip.
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Eric,
In one of your pictures on the 2nd hole I see some cart tracks in the fairways - was it overly wet when you were there?
Do you know what grasses were used throughout the course? Is it similar to what was used at Sand Hills and the Prairie Club?
If you can't answer maybe Chris can.
Thanks,
Scott
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Dismal River is a terrific course in great shape. The experience is simply outstanding. Jack was just out and spent a few hours in a late night Q and A at the firepit. Every hole is epic and not a weak one in the bunch! Every shot/every club. The food and lodging are world class.
Attention to detail is a priority. An example, each of the 2,800 irrigation heads have been calibrated, one by one.
Hard, Fast, and Green!
Chris - Welcome to the site. I've read a couple comments that imply that Dismal would be a very difficult walk. I also read another comment that Dismal would not be that much more difficult to walk than Sand Hills except for the fact that walking paths haven't been cut in many cases.
I'd love to hear your comments on the walkability of Dismal River. Are there any plans in the near future to create any such walking paths, or is that just not a priority for the existing membership?
Thanks to all for the warm welcome. Dismal River has significant elevation change and most here choose to ride, or walk with clubs on a cart. We would be happy to cut paths for walking but few here do. Like our neighbor, walking is tough on most, especially so as our guests normally play 27-36 holes.
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Eric,
In one of your pictures on the 2nd hole I see some cart tracks in the fairways - was it overly wet when you were there?
Do you know what grasses were used throughout the course? Is it similar to what was used at Sand Hills and the Prairie Club?
If you can't answer maybe Chris can.
Thanks,
Scott
Scott
Dismal River has fine fescue tees and fairways and A1A4 bent greens. The tracks you noticed on the fairway photo are normal for fescue, especially if maintained dry and fast. Fescue is the perfect grass for the area and purist course, even though it does show tracks, even footprints. We choose not to over water and maintain the fescue in a lean manner.
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Eric, like everyone has said, thank you for the pictures and the "New Light" they have shed on DR.
However, one design and/or maintenance practice makes the course look really, really hard: if you miss a fairway off the tee (regardless of how wide it is) it appears you have about 10 feet of rough before you are in the Gunge, probably lost a lost ball. Hole after hole, that appears to be quite penal.
This penal narrowness would become even more penal when the winds blow. Which is about all the time from what I read about SH.
Tell me if I am wrong (you, too, Chris): are the fairways wide enough to allow any strategic play by favoring one side or another of a very wide fairway? Or do you just have to pipe it every time down a penal chute?
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Eric, like everyone has said, thank you for the pictures and the "New Light" they have shed on DR.
However, one design and/or maintenance practice makes the course look really, really hard: if you miss a fairway off the tee (regardless of how wide it is) it appears you have about 10 feet of rough before you are in the Gunge, probably lost a lost ball. Hole after hole, that appears to be quite penal.
This penal narrowness would become even more penal when the winds blow. Which is about all the time from what I read about SH.
Tell me if I am wrong (you, too, Chris): are the fairways wide enough to allow any strategic play by favoring one side or another of a very wide fairway? Or do you just have to pipe it every time down a penal chute?
Mike - Our fairways are quite wide, the primary rough is cut at 1 inch, and secondary rough and up to 60 feet of "native" are cut at 4 inches. The course is very playable and balls are very easy to find and hit, even well into the native. Our goal for bunkers and rough is to make them a 1/2 stroke penalty, not lost balls. I am thrilled this year that the vast majority of players finish with the same ball and the feedback is very positive as to condition and playability. Remember, we have no water which is the biggest place balls disappear but wind does play a factor at all courses out this way.
You should come see for yourself.
-
Chris,
Welcome to GCA! As a fellow newbie, though longtime lurker, what drew you to golf architecture and the game in general? I was fortunate enough to find golf, as a caddie, when I was twelve.
The recent changes in evidence, judging by the photos, and new energy that your ownership/team seems to be infusing at Dismal River sounds promising. Do you have a caddie program there yet? The fact that many players go twice or play 27 shouldn't discourage every effort to make it walking friendly. From personal experience, having worked as a caddie at many top tracks like Pebble Beach, Merion etc., quite a few players enjoy walking the first round and then taking a four-caddie and riding(where permitted) the second. Though I'm not a big fan, even four players with pullcarts and a quality caddie can cover a course briskly and provide exercise and value for the golfing foursome.
The cart is not the enemy of the caddie or the game. In fact, over the rather expansive ground that often constitutes "Prairie Golf," it is an asset! With the caddie dynamic also in play, golfers get the best of both worlds. They can even take a cart, and walk when they wish...their caddie just drives it ahead and the pace of place is usually superb.
Sounds as though the offerings are multiplying out your way. I'm hoping your fresh approach can lead to sustained success there, as it seems to have many of the ingredients for a quality experience in place. If you take care of the golf Chris, everything else being sound, you'll do well!
Cheers, Kris 8)
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Chris,
Welcome to GCA! As a fellow newbie, though longtime lurker, what drew you to golf architecture and the game in general? I was fortunate enough to find golf, as a caddie, when I was twelve.
The recent changes in evidence, judging by the photos, and new energy that your ownership/team seems to be infusing at Dismal River sounds promising. Do you have a caddie program there yet? The fact that many players go twice or play 27 shouldn't discourage every effort to make it walking friendly. From personal experience, having worked as a caddie at many top tracks like Pebble Beach, Merion etc., quite a few players enjoy walking the first round and then taking a four-caddie and riding(where permitted) the second. Though I'm not a big fan, even four players with pullcarts and a quality caddie can cover a course briskly and provide exercise and value for the golfing foursome.
The cart is not the enemy of the caddie or the game. In fact, over the rather expansive ground that often constitutes "Prairie Golf," it is an asset! With the caddie dynamic also in play, golfers get the best of both worlds. They can even take a cart, and walk when they wish...their caddie just drives it ahead and the pace of place is usually superb.
Sounds as though the offerings are multiplying out your way. I'm hoping your fresh approach can lead to sustained success there, as it seems to have many of the ingredients for a quality experience in place. If you take care of the golf Chris, everything else being sound, you'll do well!
Cheers, Kris 8)
Kris
I love walking or taking a caddie but, with the terrain here, I believe players should be given the choice. We get a lot of purists and most choose to ride. Our course is more than a mile from the clubhouse and that may be a reason.
As to architecture, I am a 15 year member of Sand Hills and was formerly Chairman and CEO of Royal Precision, maker of Rifle & ProjecX shafts and Royal Grips. I've been around golf for a while and have had occasion to play most of the greats. There really is nothing like golf out here in the Sand Hills, outside of Ireland/Scotland that is. Dismal has no homes, trees, or water...just pure golf.
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Chris,
Thanks for your feedback. I'm ALL for choice. One shouldn't be forced to chose, unless there are unusual circumstances or conditions present. If you'll note in my post, I was supporting the buggy as an asset in your type of setting! The opportunity for a facility, to OFFER BOTH options, in combination, would seem to give the members/guests the best options of both worlds.
Most "purists" aren't buggy riders, given the choice. You reference Ireland and Scotland and comparisons to the golf out there in the Sand Hills. I'm married to a Scottiish lass, belong to Royal Dornoch and play over there frequently. It is a walking game in those countries...except where Americanization has infiltrated. Certainly, as I said, the expansive nature of Sand Hills golf dictates buggy use as an option.
Do you have a caddie program for walking purists at Dismal River?
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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Chris,
Welcome to the board.
Is the sparse population in the Mullen area a challenge to start and maintain a viable caddie program?
Eric,
Thanks for the pictures. I would never have guessed they were taken with a telephone.
Mark
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Chris,
Welcome to the board.
Is the sparse population in the Mullen area a challenge to start and maintain a viable caddie program?
Eric,
Thanks for the pictures. I would never have guessed they were taken with a telephone.
Mark
Just got off the course. Wonderful!
Kris - we do have a caddie/foerecaddie program.
Mark - The caddie program is easy during the summer, but is not so much after school starts. We are fortunate in having 45 on-site employee housing units so we do have some full year caddies.
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Thanks Chris.
Much success to you and the gang out there. Sounds as though with on-campus housing, you should be able to have a failrly solid staff. Typically, what is the window for the golf season there...May through late October? I'm sure you get some decent spells outwith, but is that basically the norm? I know some areas have better microclimates out there than others.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_1762.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_1786.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/rearof18greenDR.jpg?t=1283029888)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_1959.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_1805.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2017.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2039.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2036.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_1869.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_1648.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_1846.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/pitDR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/ClubhousedeckDR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/RearofClubhouseDR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_1659.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_1658.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_1656.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_1652.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_1885.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_1653.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/FIREDR.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/MacbythefireDR.jpg)
What a place.
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Great pics, Eric. You have to put your Sand Hills photos somewhere.
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Thanks Chris.
Much success to you and the gang out there. Sounds as though with on-campus housing, you should be able to have a failrly solid staff. Typically, what is the window for the golf season there...May through late October? I'm sure you get some decent spells outwith, but is that basically the norm? I know some areas have better microclimates out there than others.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
Kris
The housing allows us to maintain a world class staff, facility, and course.. Our season is late May to early October. Hot and windy today - shot a grinding 75!
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Chris,
Good on ya! When you have to fight for a respectable round, in tough conditions, and pull it off, that round (and tipple after if so inclined) always seems a little more satisfying.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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Eric, like everyone has said, thank you for the pictures and the "New Light" they have shed on DR.
However, one design and/or maintenance practice makes the course look really, really hard: if you miss a fairway off the tee (regardless of how wide it is) it appears you have about 10 feet of rough before you are in the Gunge, probably lost a lost ball. Hole after hole, that appears to be quite penal.
This penal narrowness would become even more penal when the winds blow. Which is about all the time from what I read about SH.
Tell me if I am wrong (you, too, Chris): are the fairways wide enough to allow any strategic play by favoring one side or another of a very wide fairway? Or do you just have to pipe it every time down a penal chute?
Mike - Our fairways are quite wide, the primary rough is cut at 1 inch, and secondary rough and up to 60 feet of "native" are cut at 4 inches. The course is very playable and balls are very easy to find and hit, even well into the native. Our goal for bunkers and rough is to make them a 1/2 stroke penalty, not lost balls. I am thrilled this year that the vast majority of players finish with the same ball and the feedback is very positive as to condition and playability. Remember, we have no water which is the biggest place balls disappear but wind does play a factor at all courses out this way.
You should come see for yourself.
As a matter of fact, some golf friends and I are makng preliminary plans for a super tour through NE next May/June and we will certainly include DR in our tour. Thank you for the reminder to come see for ourselves.
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Eric, like everyone has said, thank you for the pictures and the "New Light" they have shed on DR.
However, one design and/or maintenance practice makes the course look really, really hard: if you miss a fairway off the tee (regardless of how wide it is) it appears you have about 10 feet of rough before you are in the Gunge, probably lost a lost ball. Hole after hole, that appears to be quite penal.
This penal narrowness would become even more penal when the winds blow. Which is about all the time from what I read about SH.
Tell me if I am wrong (you, too, Chris): are the fairways wide enough to allow any strategic play by favoring one side or another of a very wide fairway? Or do you just have to pipe it every time down a penal chute?
Mike - Our fairways are quite wide, the primary rough is cut at 1 inch, and secondary rough and up to 60 feet of "native" are cut at 4 inches. The course is very playable and balls are very easy to find and hit, even well into the native. Our goal for bunkers and rough is to make them a 1/2 stroke penalty, not lost balls. I am thrilled this year that the vast majority of players finish with the same ball and the feedback is very positive as to condition and playability. Remember, we have no water which is the biggest place balls disappear but wind does play a factor at all courses out this way.
You should come see for yourself.
As a matter of fact, some golf friends and I are makng preliminary plans for a super tour through NE next May/June and we will certainly include DR in our tour. Thank you for the reminder to come see for ourselves.
MIke
I look forward to seeing you in the Spring!
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So how long is the walk? And is it possible?
I am always perplexed by references to golf in Ireland and Scotland which are followed by hints that a course was not designed to allow for walking? Options - Cool, Carts Only (especially on a fescue based course) - Boo!
DR looks like it is in a beautiful setting with some very strong holes - I hope that if walking is not a "real" option now the new ownership ensures there are walking paths so the golfer can at least choose his mode of transportation (even if it is only the "crazies").
Sand Hills may not be an "easy" walk but 36+ a day is certainly possible. Ballyneal is even easier with 54+ a day an option.
Great to hear praise for the course after the changes - it had never received much love on the site in the past.
Good luck Chris and team.
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Rob:
When I was there I tried to pay close attention to the routing, observing where the direct route from tee to fairway or tee to green would take the walking golfer (pun intended ;D) and for sure there are some rugged drop offs where the cart trail would be the preferred way to travel. Hole 2 for example has a deep ravine in front of the tee and hole 3 has some sand dunes between the tee and green that I climbed on and around once looking for a ball. Walking in that soft sand does wear on your feet (some comfy TRUE'S might help in this situation ;)). But, I do think that the golf course is walkable. The green to tee walks are not long, save for a bit of an uphill climb from 9 green to 10 tee, but you'll find Hooker's on the way, where you can grab a snack, hit the head then get back out to the tee. I'm thinking 15 green to 16 tee may be longer than the others, but I'm not sure -- hopefully Chris will chime in. [By the way it is great having you with us on the thread Chris - thanks for your input.]
IMO, no way are you gonna walk up to the black tee at 18. That'd be insanely challenging, especially as you still have to play one of the more difficult holes on the course, where afterwards you'd have to make another climb up to Jack's, where I'd imagine there would be a golf cart waiting to get you back to the clubhouse.
I've tried to find Dismal River on Google Earth, but cannot locate it. Anyone have an aerial you can put up here, please? I would like to see if I am remembering the relative closeness of the green to tee walks correctly.
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The view from that back tee on 18 is so sprectacular though...well worth the walk.
What cahnges are planned for #18...I love that hole the way it is.
As mentioned earlier, I am impressed at just how much better the course looks than my visit about 18 months ago.
I look forward to returning and correcting my previous views about the course.
I still think the opening hole is rather weak, too extreme a blindness..perhaps this could be altered with a different tee location?
But I fully agree with Chris 100 %..top notch accomidation and service...that I have always said!
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The view from that back tee on 18 is so sprectacular though...well worth the walk.
What cahnges are planned for #18...I love that hole the way it is.
As mentioned earlier, I am impressed at just how much better the course looks than my visit about 18 months ago.
I look forward to returning and correcting my previous views about the course.
I still think the opening hole is rather weak, too extreme a blindness..perhaps this could be altered with a different tee location?
But I fully agree with Chris 100 %..top notch accomidation and service...that I have always said!
MWP:
That opening hole blindness is only on the second shot though and it was a 9 iron to a big ole punchbowl! It's exhilirating (to me) to start off in this fashion. One of the things I liked most about DR was that opening hole.
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Eric:
I've tried to find Dismal River on Google Earth, but cannot locate it. Anyone have an aerial you can put up here, please? I would like to see if I am remembering the relative closeness of the green to tee walks correctly.
Go to Google Maps and search 41.852174,-101.269827.
That, I believe, will take you to Dismal River GC.
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Eric:
I've tried to find Dismal River on Google Earth, but cannot locate it. Anyone have an aerial you can put up here, please? I would like to see if I am remembering the relative closeness of the green to tee walks correctly.
Go to Google Maps and search 41.852174,-101.269827.
That, I believe, will take you to Dismal River GC.
Scott:
As The Wiggles like to say, "Beauty Mate!" :D
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DISMAL%20RIVER/DRAERIAL.jpg?t=1283265667)
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But that tee shot is just so awkward looking...you have to banh it down that left side wher it takes the coutour, but you dont know that when you first play the hole...
I agree about the punchbowl green though.
I just felt as though the first few holes were a little weak compared to what is to follow...the back nine I thought was wonderful...that par three 16th is awesome..what a great hole.
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Any chance someone could label the holes on that map?
I've played the course and still can't make heads or tails of it.
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Any chance someone could label the holes on that map?
I've played the course and still can't make heads or tails of it.
Here you go, MacArther.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/DRROUTING.jpg?t=1283280416)
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For those who have played it in its infancy and again more recently - I seem to be sensing a much greater appreciation for DR than in the past. Can you speak to what's specifically causing the change of heart?
Is it the new ownership group and the direction its headed?
Is it changes to the course?
Something else?
I must admit that all the raving reviews it's now getting has made me want to visit it once again.
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From the newly numbered map...I realise that the par three I like so much is 15 not 16 sorry...
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Chris, Are there any arguments that could be made to save the existing 18th green?
Adam - probably not. I believe the hole, while very good today, will be enhanced by the changes.
While "probably" opens a door, your opinion on the enhancement, shuts it, rather quickly.
Just for grins, how about I give it a try?
Before I do, I'd like to tell you what I know as premise. That way, if it's flawed, I won't embarrass myself further.
The reason for the change to the 18th green is because of it's blindness. Many of the original members complained about it, and those complaints are going to be heeded and the green will be changed.
Is that correct?
Scott,
I feel the major difference in my last round versus my first round is based mostly on the fun scale.
The changes to the greens and their surrounds allow for recovery, where previously it was a chore just to find your ball. These changes also allow for more options on how to play either approach or chip shots. Not in all cases but in general. that's my sense.
Take #10 for instance, With the pin tucked in the back, right behind the center bunker (versus all the way back) I tried to play the right sideboard, higher up on the dune. When my ball stayed up on the hill, getting stuck in the grass, I said to our host how I wish I had tried to thread the needle utilizing the left side, instead. He then tried the shot I just mentioned. Since he birdied the hole both days, I'd say he thought it was fun too. ;)
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What a great thread. Unbelievable phone photos, but it was the passion of the described experience that was most moving. Thanks to Eric, Chris, and others for opening our eyes and minds.
Warning: self indulgent rant follows. Hit page down key and move on.
I dont have a clear sense about the physical design changes that have occurred at DR and how these have improved the course. But I do know from long experience that all golf courses evolve continuously. Purely from a personal point of view, my opinions about golf and golf courses are also continuously evolving, especially since I started reading a few yards of books, traveling to see other courses, and reading the opinions of others on this site and elsewhere. For example, renovations I did 10-12 years ago and thought were really cool looking, embarrass my aesthetics today.
Perhaps because I get to leave my armchair and fool around in the dirt (as an owner, not as a designer, clearly Im guilty of tinkering), I find it impossible to imagine building a golf course and getting everything perfectly right. I also think its impossible to work on such a large canvass, no matter how well everyone else loves the result, without wishing some things had been done differently. Over time, courses, opinions, and people change and experiences accumulate (repeat plays). So, it seems entirely reasonable to me that the various visceral reactions to DR expressed here (mostly based on one or a couple of plays) would be so widespread.
Given the complexity of building a golf course, I am in awe of anyone who can put together a team of talented folks and create a course that is so beautiful and enjoyable that one is emotionally overwhelmed. There are a few designers admired here that have done that time and again. They deserve our admiration for their talent, creativity, expertise, and the pleasure they have given us. Theyre our heroes and mentors. However, it sometimes seems my own opinions (and others on here) are unduly influenced by a sort of conventional group thinking that can get skewed by too many design clichés and too much hero worship at the expense of being able to appreciate good work from designers of lesser, or in this case greater, reputations or commercial appeal.
I dont read the rating threads here. Im much more interested in peoples gut reactions about the experience of playing a course, as Eric so eloquently put it near the start of this thread. When pressed to explain why he felt as he did, those specific things he liked were precisely the same things another questioned. Fair enough, we all react differently to our own emotions, aesthetics, and our evolving opinions. Yet, it was refreshing to read this discussion because it remained positive and open minded to other opinions and, to a great extent, didnt break down into haggling over our individual biases.
Thanks to all of my fellow golf nutcases for making my time here as enjoyable as reading this thread, and please feel free to call me a sentimental, long-winded moron.
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Chris, Are there any arguments that could be made to save the existing 18th green?
Adam - probably not. I believe the hole, while very good today, will be enhanced by the changes.
While "probably" opens a door, your opinion on the enhancement, shuts it, rather quickly.
Just for grins, how about I give it a try?
Before I do, I'd like to tell you what I know as premise. That way, if it's flawed, I won't embarrass myself further.
The reason for the change to the 18th green is because of it's blindness. Many of the original members complained about it, and those complaints are going to be heeded and the green will be changed.
Is that correct?
Scott,
I feel the major difference in my last round versus my first round is based mostly on the fun scale.
The changes to the greens and their surrounds allow for recovery, where previously it was a chore just to find your ball. These changes also allow for more options on how to play either approach or chip shots. Not in all cases but in general. that's my sense.
Take #10 for instance, With the pin tucked in the back, right behind the center bunker (versus all the way back) I tried to play the right sideboard, higher up on the dune. When my ball stayed up on the hill, getting stuck in the grass, I said to our host how I wish I had tried to thread the needle utilizing the left side, instead. He then tried the shot I just mentioned. Since he birdied the hole both days, I'd say he thought it was fun too. ;)
Adam
You are correct. 18, while a great hole, will become "epic" and will fit the rest of the back 9 better. The blindness was one of the reasons for modification.
-
What a great thread. Unbelievable phone photos, but it was the passion of the described experience that was most moving. Thanks to Eric, Chris, and others for opening our eyes and minds.
Warning: self indulgent rant follows. Hit page down key and move on.
I dont have a clear sense about the physical design changes that have occurred at DR and how these have improved the course. But I do know from long experience that all golf courses evolve continuously. Purely from a personal point of view, my opinions about golf and golf courses are also continuously evolving, especially since I started reading a few yards of books, traveling to see other courses, and reading the opinions of others on this site and elsewhere. For example, renovations I did 10-12 years ago and thought were really cool looking, embarrass my aesthetics today.
Perhaps because I get to leave my armchair and fool around in the dirt (as an owner, not as a designer, clearly Im guilty of tinkering), I find it impossible to imagine building a golf course and getting everything perfectly right. I also think its impossible to work on such a large canvass, no matter how well everyone else loves the result, without wishing some things had been done differently. Over time, courses, opinions, and people change and experiences accumulate (repeat plays). So, it seems entirely reasonable to me that the various visceral reactions to DR expressed here (mostly based on one or a couple of plays) would be so widespread.
Given the complexity of building a golf course, I am in awe of anyone who can put together a team of talented folks and create a course that is so beautiful and enjoyable that one is emotionally overwhelmed. There are a few designers admired here that have done that time and again. They deserve our admiration for their talent, creativity, expertise, and the pleasure they have given us. Theyre our heroes and mentors. However, it sometimes seems my own opinions (and others on here) are unduly influenced by a sort of conventional group thinking that can get skewed by too many design clichés and too much hero worship at the expense of being able to appreciate good work from designers of lesser, or in this case greater, reputations or commercial appeal.
I dont read the rating threads here. Im much more interested in peoples gut reactions about the experience of playing a course, as Eric so eloquently put it near the start of this thread. When pressed to explain why he felt as he did, those specific things he liked were precisely the same things another questioned. Fair enough, we all react differently to our own emotions, aesthetics, and our evolving opinions. Yet, it was refreshing to read this discussion because it remained positive and open minded to other opinions and, to a great extent, didnt break down into haggling over our individual biases.
Thanks to all of my fellow golf nutcases for making my time here as enjoyable as reading this thread, and please feel free to call me a sentimental, long-winded moron.
Sentimental, long-winded moron living in his own private Idaho. :) Thank you for the kind words Dave, I loved your post. I remembered Idaho because our friends who met you out at Bandon spoke very highly of you after the trip.
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What a great thread. Unbelievable phone photos, but it was the passion of the described experience that was most moving. Thanks to Eric, Chris, and others for opening our eyes and minds.
Warning: self indulgent rant follows. Hit page down key and move on.
I dont have a clear sense about the physical design changes that have occurred at DR and how these have improved the course. But I do know from long experience that all golf courses evolve continuously. Purely from a personal point of view, my opinions about golf and golf courses are also continuously evolving, especially since I started reading a few yards of books, traveling to see other courses, and reading the opinions of others on this site and elsewhere. For example, renovations I did 10-12 years ago and thought were really cool looking, embarrass my aesthetics today.
Perhaps because I get to leave my armchair and fool around in the dirt (as an owner, not as a designer, clearly Im guilty of tinkering), I find it impossible to imagine building a golf course and getting everything perfectly right. I also think its impossible to work on such a large canvass, no matter how well everyone else loves the result, without wishing some things had been done differently. Over time, courses, opinions, and people change and experiences accumulate (repeat plays). So, it seems entirely reasonable to me that the various visceral reactions to DR expressed here (mostly based on one or a couple of plays) would be so widespread.
Given the complexity of building a golf course, I am in awe of anyone who can put together a team of talented folks and create a course that is so beautiful and enjoyable that one is emotionally overwhelmed. There are a few designers admired here that have done that time and again. They deserve our admiration for their talent, creativity, expertise, and the pleasure they have given us. Theyre our heroes and mentors. However, it sometimes seems my own opinions (and others on here) are unduly influenced by a sort of conventional group thinking that can get skewed by too many design clichés and too much hero worship at the expense of being able to appreciate good work from designers of lesser, or in this case greater, reputations or commercial appeal.
I dont read the rating threads here. Im much more interested in peoples gut reactions about the experience of playing a course, as Eric so eloquently put it near the start of this thread. When pressed to explain why he felt as he did, those specific things he liked were precisely the same things another questioned. Fair enough, we all react differently to our own emotions, aesthetics, and our evolving opinions. Yet, it was refreshing to read this discussion because it remained positive and open minded to other opinions and, to a great extent, didnt break down into haggling over our individual biases.
Thanks to all of my fellow golf nutcases for making my time here as enjoyable as reading this thread, and please feel free to call me a sentimental, long-winded moron.
Great post.A sentimental long-winded moron you are not.But a great playing partner you are.Thanks for the wisdom.
Anthony
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I made the 17 mile drive, yes 17, on the road into DM, and it is all paved. I'm not sure it's wider than a cart path. I also drove into The Prairie Club on my very recent trip to Sand Hills. I can say, after driving into both, that I'd really wish I'd gotten there early to play DM. Of course, I was playing with three great gents at SH who had just played Ballyneal, Wildhorse, and then DM. They couldn't stop talking about DM, and I think that says a lot!
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I made the 17 mile drive, yes 17, on the road into DM, and it is all paved. I'm not sure it's wider than a cart path. I also drove into The Prairie Club on my very recent trip to Sand Hills. I can say, after driving into both, that I'd really wish I'd gotten there early to play DM. Of course, I was playing with three great gents at SH who had just played Ballyneal, Wildhorse, and then DM. They couldn't stop talking about DM, and I think that says a lot!
Tony,
Are you sure automobiles were allowed? Maybe it was a cart path!
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But that tee shot is just so awkward looking...you have to banh it down that left side wher it takes the coutour, but you dont know that when you first play the hole...
I agree about the punchbowl green though.
I just felt as though the first few holes were a little weak compared to what is to follow...the back nine I thought was wonderful...that par three 16th is awesome..what a great hole.
Michael
Actually, the drive on #1 is terrific and not awkward at all! Ultimate beginning risk/reward leaving between 100 yards (reward) and 165 yards (conservative). The natural terrain is a proper introduction to the course that awaits.
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I'd also like to compliment Mr. long-winded sentimental 'fellow' on his post, and to Mr Johnston for his input.
Over the years here on GCA.com, many of the 'purists' and vanguard to the movement to the design of more natural and harmonious golf courses were wishing for more courses like Sand Hills original and then Wild Horse, to come about. Now, we have BallyNeal, Dismal River, and the courses at Prairie Club. And, there are a possible few more. We've seen the same movement towards the same ideal at Bandon, and even a cousin to this movement in places like Rustic Canyon, and certainly more in the same ideal there in Long Island. We have come a long way in about a dozen years towards a new class of golf course design.
But, Mr. McCollum makes a point that we really shouldn't overlook in our quest to name the most darling of our golf course designer architects, and which project we favor most, to the critique of others when we find a flaw the inevitablity of change. All these courses have to have some early flaws. They tweaked Sand Hills within a few years of its opening. I don't know if they have done anything at Bally. Even Wild Horse has done a few tweaks. But, as for DR, maybe they did have a few miscues. But, with the sort of commitment and investment that is out there, we should recognise that eventually by user observation and critique, they will EVOLVE!!! The market forces will keep pushing all of them to tweak and adjust. But, particularly with DR and the other sand hill courses, they start from amazing ground, and in such a unique place that they will utlimately settle into some sort of adjustments that will please even the purists, IMHO.
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Chris, I feel that the current 18th green is a great way to end the experience at DR, due to the semi-blindness, in the same way you describe the opener as a proper intro, this green is a proper finale.
It seems like a very expensive fix, for something that seems to fit the entire course so well.
However, since you're describing the change as epic, I will give up any hope in trying to convince you that those that bellyached about that final blindness, just didn't appreciate the bookend effect that green provides. It reminds me very much of Pete Dye's second hole (?) at Firethorn. The one with the big mound directly in front of the green. True to the links courses, I've only seen pictures of, from across the pond.
When is the construction scheduled and will the hole be closed during the fix?
Dick, At our inaugural dinner, that was the one question I asked Mr. Doak. 'How did he see tweaking the design over the years" His response was "not at all." His reasoning was that his entire team had spent so much time on site, and, go over every detail, that all tweaks were made prior to grassing. Bally has had a few bunkers added. I'm not a fan of them, but they are there and there's not much you can do about it now. I just hope and prey when Hep gets asked again, to do similar work, he will graciously decline. I assume it's Dave Hensley who has made a few adjustments to the look of some of the native areas too. By scratching out the native, he's made the sand more visible, in spots. I don't consider them design changes, but, they do have an affect on the look of some of the holes. Who knows? Maybe they will evolve into blowouts, in their own right.
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Chris, I feel that the current 18th green is a great way to end the experience at DR, due to the semi-blindness, in the same way you describe the opener as a proper intro, this green is a proper finale.
It seems like a very expensive fix, for something that seems to fit the entire course so well.
However, since you're describing the change as epic, I will give up any hope in trying to convince you that those that bellyached about that final blindness, just didn't appreciate the bookend effect that green provides. It reminds me very much of Pete Dye's second hole (?) at Firethorn. The one with the big mound directly in front of the green. True to the links courses, I've only seen pictures of, from across the pond.
Adam,
A couple of hours around the firepit with you arguing the merits of keeping the existing green, perhaps then they'd decide to leave well enough alone. I kid...just a fan of the 18th as it is, is all.
Chris,
Will the big tall bunker short/right be altered or removed as well?
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_2020.jpg)
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Adam, wouldn't we all expect most architects to take a similar line of comment at an inaugrual dinner of their new and acclaimed course? TD and Co, do indeed pay attention to their details, as their track record would prove. Although, even they haven't been 100% untweakable, have they?
Of course that is a great marketting tool to be able to say, "we get it right from the git-go", and don't expect to have to come back for tweaks. But, there is a real world out there that is beyond their control, as the example you pointed out of the boss wanting something more or changed. The customers over time may also want something else. What to do then, if you loose market or customers for well thought out rationale or just trendy desires? I think you have to tweak to protect your investment. Apparently that is what DR did.
I guess there is all sorts of 'evolving' processes. There are the market driven design evolving due to demand for a change of some feature that just doesn't gain support, and there are the natural processes like scratching out vegie in places like sand hills/chop hills where the wind just is going to do it's thing and probably create one hellacious bunker blow-out. Speaking of which, I wonder what the scratched out mess on the fragile prairieland at the defunct Applegate Prairie course project looks like these days?
But, I guess I don't want to pooh pooh the potential for evolution.... or I'd probably look even more regressed... ::)
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You probably dont remember Anthony Grays assessment of me at Bandon that my heart was as big as my liver. How embarrassing, but guilty as charged. I sat down there in that basement pub at Bandon and listened to Tom D., Gib, and Geo Bahto late into the night. And in a moment of transcendence, kept drinking stuff that I never touch. Geeze, can I apply again for membership in the treehouse?
Good discussion. Keep it going.
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BTW, what better ground and terrain to have to make tweaks in than sand hills? One can easily strip away sand, pile it out somewhere where it might look like a natural hummock, and re=establish turf pretty rapidly. I'll bet the costs of moving around sand in those areas is a heck of a lot cheaper than mucking around in clayey loam with enviro agents dogging your every move back in these regions. I can just hear the county land planner (if they have one up in Hooker)...
'... oh, you want to melt down some hummocks on your golf course? Well, don't melt them down more than 200 feet or you might run out of sand or create a big runoff compromise with the other billion acres of sand..." ::) ;D
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Chris, I feel that the current 18th green is a great way to end the experience at DR, due to the semi-blindness, in the same way you describe the opener as a proper intro, this green is a proper finale.
It seems like a very expensive fix, for something that seems to fit the entire course so well.
However, since you're describing the change as epic, I will give up any hope in trying to convince you that those that bellyached about that final blindness, just didn't appreciate the bookend effect that green provides. It reminds me very much of Pete Dye's second hole (?) at Firethorn. The one with the big mound directly in front of the green. True to the links courses, I've only seen pictures of, from across the pond.
Adam,
A couple of hours around the firepit with you arguing the merits of keeping the existing green, perhaps then they'd decide to leave well enough alone. I kid...just a fan of the 18th as it is, is all.
Chris,
Will the big tall bunker short/right be altered or removed as well?
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_2020.jpg)
Eric
The right side bunker will remain as will the pitch just behind it. I can assure everyone, we spent more than 3 months simply studying this before reaching a decision.
Dave is is very easy to work with the sand but the restoration isn't - the land out here is very fragile.
I do like the firepit discussion idea!
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Nobody should expect to be perfect the first time out; there is always room for improvement over time. But this fetish that some of you guys have for tweaking courses is just beyond me.
RJ, how can you say "maybe they did have a few miscues. But, with the sort of commitment and investment that is out there, we should recognise that eventually by user observation and critique, they will EVOLVE!!! " I think that comment refers to a course that's on its THIRD owner. I'm not picking on that course in particular; I'm picking on the idea that a developer or his new members enjoy having their course torn up every couple of years, or enjoy paying for it. [And in fact, I would rather go on to build another new course than come back and tinker with all the ones I've done to date, but it is the nature of the world economy that many architects are looking to get paid to fix their own errors because no one is eager to pay them to make new ones.]
I've got one owner who loves to tinker ... Mr. Pascucci ... and that experience is enough that I hope I don't have any more.
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Chris,
We will just have to agree to disagree on that one, I personally dont think the player is aware of the risk reward until after the tee shot has been hit and you drive down to see what you were hitting to...that been said...that is what practice rounds would be for!
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Dick, Tom wasn't marketing to me. He was sincere and honest in their applications.
As for getting it right out of the box, I assume that they did because they were given more freedom than is usual. I'm unaware of any rebuilding of bunkers due to heavy rains (and we've had heavy rains). There might have been some softening of some slopes, but that could've been natural settle or, before grow in.
I admit I don't know everything about BN. For all I know they could be doing night work, like they do at Pebble Beach. One night they rebuilt the entire front bunkers on the 7th.
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i am with Adam...love the 18th green...
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Glad to see Dismal getting some respect at last. I've always liked it a great deal more than I feel the general consensus here has.
I like the idea of shifting the tee on 6 down into the valley--I've always felt that was an awkward hole because the tee shot lacked any real strategy (in relation to the punchbowl green) other than just get it over the dune. I can't quite envision what it will play like from the lower left but hopefully a greater degree of reward can be created.
Eager to see to the new 13th.
Count me in with the crowd that doesn't see the need to change the green location at 18. The "Taco" green was a fun and appropriate end to the round.
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Adam, wouldn't we all expect most architects to take a similar line of comment at an inaugrual dinner of their new and acclaimed course? ...
Dick,
That is the same posture that TD takes here! It has nothing to do with an inaugural dinner for a particular course.
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Chris,
We will just have to agree to disagree on that one, I personally dont think the player is aware of the risk reward until after the tee shot has been hit and you drive down to see what you were hitting to...that been said...that is what practice rounds would be for!
Michael
I agree with you. Remember, most who play Dismal River are with a Member or a caddie so there is local knowledge on the first tee. The tee shot is one of the members favorites here but I agree local knowledge is important. Once you know the hole, most really find it great.
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Nobody should expect to be perfect the first time out; there is always room for improvement over time. But this fetish that some of you guys have for tweaking courses is just beyond me.
RJ, how can you say "maybe they did have a few miscues. But, with the sort of commitment and investment that is out there, we should recognise that eventually by user observation and critique, they will EVOLVE!!! " I think that comment refers to a course that's on its THIRD owner. I'm not picking on that course in particular; I'm picking on the idea that a developer or his new members enjoy having their course torn up every couple of years, or enjoy paying for it. [And in fact, I would rather go on to build another new course than come back and tinker with all the ones I've done to date, but it is the nature of the world economy that many architects are looking to get paid to fix their own errors because no one is eager to pay them to make new ones.]
I've got one owner who loves to tinker ... Mr. Pascucci ... and that experience is enough that I hope I don't have any more.
Tom (and all)
The 18th hole at Dismal River is terrific. As mentioned earlier, we have literally taken months contemplating as one should when working with a masterpiece. Among the key factors were maintenance, drainage, condition, traffic, and pace of play. In the end, we chose to modify 18 and it will make a great hole even better and we like that opportunity!
As the best golfer in history, and arguably the best course designer in the modern age, Jack has been a real pleasure to work with. Both Jack and Chris have been very generous, engaged, and focussed - true pros.
This week we have found time to focus on the walking paths/trails.
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Thanks Mr. Johnston for sharing all of that - I've said on here many times that there is nothing better than those in the industry sharing their passions with the rest of us, and you helped show why I believe that. Hope you keep sharing, a belated welcome to the site.
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As the best golfer in history, and arguably the best course designer in the modern age . . .
I admire the loyalty Chris. Does this mean we're now in the postmodern age?
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As the best golfer in history, and arguably the best course designer in the modern age . . .
I admire the loyalty Chris. Does this mean we're now in the postmodern age?
Tom:
I don't think we are in the post modern age just yet. As one who appreciates the game and design, Jack's contributions to both have been almost without peer. Think of how many other great designers have become so with inspiration, at some point in life or career, by TGB. The contributions are astounding.
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As the best golfer in history, and arguably the best course designer in the modern age . . .
I admire the loyalty Chris. Does this mean we're now in the postmodern age?
Tom:
I don't think we are in the post modern age just yet. As one who appreciates the game and design, Jack's contributions to both have been almost without peer. Think of how many other great designers have become so with inspiration, at some point in life or career, by TGB. The contributions are astounding.
TGB is "the golden bear?" I think he has had an amazing career in golf, but don't see how that is the same thing as being the best course designer in the modern era. The Nicklaus brand has contributed a huge number of golf courses, but how many of these are great and how many he designed is not so clear.
I cannot think of any great designer that I have heard mention Nicklaus as an inspiration in the area of golf course design. Does not mean that they haven't. Do you know of any that have?
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Since this is a website that allows for "frank commentary," that's a whole lot of Nicklaus honking coming from Chris Johnston!!!
I'm more impressed with "keeping it real" and honest commentary than I am with loyalist pandering and butt-kissing. Save the canned speeches for opening day, Chris.
With all the courses Jack has designed, some of them damn well better be highly ranked!!!
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...
With all the courses Jack has designed, some of them damn well better be highly ranked!!!
Unfortunately most of the highly ranked ones were done with another designer.
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Garland,
There are so many Nicklaus designs out there we probably can't even remain abreast of what is and isn't good!!!
I'm curious about Kinloch in NZ....
images look good...
http://www.nicklaus.com/design/kinloch/index.php
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Nobody should expect to be perfect the first time out; there is always room for improvement over time. But this fetish that some of you guys have for tweaking courses is just beyond me.
RJ, how can you say "maybe they did have a few miscues. But, with the sort of commitment and investment that is out there, we should recognise that eventually by user observation and critique, they will EVOLVE!!! " I think that comment refers to a course that's on its THIRD owner. I'm not picking on that course in particular; I'm picking on the idea that a developer or his new members enjoy having their course torn up every couple of years, or enjoy paying for it. [And in fact, I would rather go on to build another new course than come back and tinker with all the ones I've done to date, but it is the nature of the world economy that many architects are looking to get paid to fix their own errors because no one is eager to pay them to make new ones.]
[b]I've got one owner who loves to tinker ... Mr. Pascucci ... and that experience is enough that I hope I don't have any more.[/b]
I understand the new 14th green is quote the architectural masterpiece.
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Since this is a website that allows for "frank commentary," that's a whole lot of Nicklaus honking coming from Chris Johnston!!!
I'm more impressed with "keeping it real" and honest commentary than I am with loyalist pandering and butt-kissing. Save the canned speeches for opening day, Chris.
With all the courses Jack has designed, some of them damn well better be highly ranked!!!
Michael
I'm not sure what "honking" is but if it means I admire Jack and his career in golf, I certainly do. And I'm not real good at speeches my friend. With his body of evidence, Jack has made a huge mark on golf design and has done a bundle of truly great courses. Yes, he has worked with others and I find that a good thing. These days, golf is fortunate to have several great designers, and all certainly deserve admiration and respect - they certainly have it from me.
Unlike most, I can speak from first hand knowledge, Jack is great and great to work with at Dismal River. I don't have that experience with many others although I did spend a great few days with Bill Coore years ago. As a Sand Hills guy, I really admire Bill and Ben as well.
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If Dismal River is one of Jack's better courses, and it required significant changes so soon after opening, does that really say much in support of a claim that he is "arguably the best designer of the modern age"? Don't get me wrong, alternate opinions make the world go 'round, but I think left-field claims like that are best delivered with some kind of case to support them.
Even if we ignore the current crop of stars, does Nicklaus' portfolio or his design legacy (both his impact on the next generation of designers and the success of guys who trained under him) rival Pete Dye's?
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Since this is a website that allows for "frank commentary," that's a whole lot of Nicklaus honking coming from Chris Johnston!!!
I'm more impressed with "keeping it real" and honest commentary than I am with loyalist pandering and butt-kissing. Save the canned speeches for opening day, Chris.
With all the courses Jack has designed, some of them damn well better be highly ranked!!!
Should the same be directed towards the people on this site who are members of courses designed by Doak and C&C and constantly kiss their butts? They have a financial interest in the success of their course, no? Or, how about the members of the industry who promote themselves and their own work on this website?
Moreover, this thread is about Dismal River. I'm certain there are other threads to discuss the merits of Nicklaus designs, generally.
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Moreover, this thread is about Dismal River. I'm certain there are other threads to discuss the merits of Nicklaus designs, generally.
Chris Johnston brought up Nicklaus, saying he was "arguably the best designer in the modern age." He also said that "Jack's contributions to both have been almost without peer. Think of how many other great designers have become so with inspiration, at some point in life or career, by TGB. The contributions are astounding." So that is how the discussion got started about Nicklaus.
Michael Dugger did not do a good (at least in terms of being polite) job expressing his opinion. I think Chris Johnston is welcome to discuss Dismal River. However, his posts are more interesting when he talks specifics about the course (e.g. planned changes, why they do things a certain way) rather than describing how great he thinks it is. Is Chris the only person with a perceived bias towards his club posting? Of course not. The problem is that he hasn't been around very long and I believe all his posts have been about Dismal River or Jack Nicklaus. So this can create the perception that he's on the site to promote Dismal River and not discuss golf architecture in general. I'm not saying this perception is accurate, but surely you can understand why some might view it that way.
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Chris, Please don't let these few non-architecture related comments dissuade you from posting further. It does require some backbone to stick with us, but, if we focus n the gca, and not the individuals, I'm certain we can all get along.
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Moreover, this thread is about Dismal River. I'm certain there are other threads to discuss the merits of Nicklaus designs, generally.
Chris Johnston brought up Nicklaus, saying he was "arguably the best designer in the modern age." He also said that "Jack's contributions to both have been almost without peer. Think of how many other great designers have become so with inspiration, at some point in life or career, by TGB. The contributions are astounding." So that is how the discussion got started about Nicklaus.
Michael Dugger did not do a good (at least in terms of being polite) job expressing his opinion. I think Chris Johnston is welcome to discuss Dismal River. However, his posts are more interesting when he talks specifics about the course (e.g. planned changes, why they do things a certain way) rather than describing how great he thinks it is. Is Chris the only person with a perceived bias towards his club posting? Of course not. The problem is that he hasn't been around very long and I believe all his posts have been about Dismal River or Jack Nicklaus. So this can create the perception that he's on the site to promote Dismal River and not discuss golf architecture in general. I'm not saying this perception is accurate, but surely you can understand why some might view it that way.
John
Saying Jack is arguably ther best designer of the modern age should not be controversial, it is a simple opinion and I expressed it on the number of great courses he has done over several decades. I concur I am new here and am happy to answer questions about Dismal River, changes, and how she plays. A friend send me the thread and I merely chose to participate, in this thread. I thought those here who were thoughtful might appreciate an inside look at the goings on at a unique place. The thread isn't about me.
Being slammed (twice) by expressing my opinion was silly. I was brought up to respect others and their opinions. Making statements about "what I have heard" about a place or designer is as meaty as puffed rice. I celebrate and respect golf and golf design - you will never see me say a bad word about any designer even if a particular design doesn't resonate with me. There seem to be some "if Jack is good, then _______ must be bad" folks here, that is not my style. Much of design is about the land the designer has at hand. The sites for Sand Hills, Bandon, Dismal River, and Ballyneal were both unique and spectacular, and Bill and Ben, Tom, and yes, even Jack, did a wonderful job. I'll celebrate them all and, like my children, will love each for their individual strengths. But, that's just me. I'm glad they aren't the same.
Last night, there was a discussion that included Old Tom Morris and Jack Nicklaus, proving my point that Jack has had a big impact on the game and design. That was both unique and cool.
I hope most will here have an opportunity to visit Dismal River and see firsthand what is here. It is unique. Like art, it will probably resonate with some and not with others.
Adam, Thank you.
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There is a huge giant gaping gulf of gray between "X is the best designer..." and "X is arguably the best designer...", and it is in the gulf that Chris is swimming. We all have our own opinions and are entitled to them, and many choose to make bold statements to make a point. Hat's off to them - and Chris in this instance - it's bold opinions like that that make this site interesting.
Imho, some of the best threads are when someone makes a bold statement. Doesn't me we have to agree, or even accept the statement without challenging it.
:)
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Chris,
To be sure no misunderstanding - If you want to say Nicklaus is arguably the best designer of the modern age, you certainly ought to be able to do so. It would seem like a jumping off point for further discussion. If you say something like that, though, you should expect someone to challenge you. Hopefully that will be in a civil manner.
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Well said George and John...
the beauty of Chris' comments is that an entire new thread on Jack's architectural legacy has started. That is good stuff for a discussion group focused on golf course architecture.
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The point of my comment was right along the lines of what John M. wrote...I apologize for not being polite enough.
Diiscuss the details of Dismal River. Absolutely, that's the point of this website.
But I didn't see where that was happening...
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The point of my comment was right along the lines of what John M. wrote...I apologize for not being polite enough.
Diiscuss the details of Dismal River. Absolutely, that's the point of this website.
But I didn't see where that was happening...
Pages 1-4? ;D
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The point of my comment was right along the lines of what John M. wrote...I apologize for not being polite enough.
Diiscuss the details of Dismal River. Absolutely, that's the point of this website.
But I didn't see where that was happening...
Pages 1-4? ;D
You are correct, JC. Indeed you are correct.
You see, I have this affliction where I get hung up on B.S. It blinds me to all that is good.
When I read "masterpiece" and "Jack is arguably the best modern golf course architect" all I saw was technicolor. ::)
Then black.......then red. >:(
Here's hoping we can get back to discourse....and here's hoping Chris Johnston will bring some meat to the conversation.
I'd LOVE to know the truth behind the speculation.
Why has the course been tinkered with so? Spare me the politically correct version, let's get the dirt.
Why the changes?
What did the elements/weather show over the past two years?
Was the course unforgiving, too hard on high handicappers?
For the record, I am not a Nicklaus hater nor a Dismal River hater. I've always thought some of the holes looked spectacular....and I've also read a lot of things on this website that have driven at the fact the design was somewhat forced onto the landscape...and that they've run into problems because of that...
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Chris Johnston
Say what you feel, submit your opinions and put forwards your thoughts, because you have as much right as anyone else on this site. So we agree or not, so what, but its in the manner of disagreeing that counts.
This site has its share of jealous little minded people who believe their opinions are more valid than others. You will soon learn who they are, yet we have many who have a wealth of great knowledge on nearly all subjects some with a wicked sense of humour as well. They far outweigh those sorry individuals who want to put you down or correct your subject matter. Ignore and pity the thought police who seem to be lost in their world.
The site is about golf and all your opinions on the subject, dont hold back and dont let others shut you up either.
Melvyn
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Quite obviously your rant is directed at me, Melvyn, and that's fine.
I dislike your form of communication, and thus I tell you so. You aren't much for conversing, but you are a lot for preaching.
You state your opinion and yer gone.
Well, indeed you are entitled to that, and in case you are confused, I do agree with you there.
But being entitled to an opinion doesn't mean it's a good one, an interesting one, an intriguing one or one other folks wish to discuss with you.
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Chris
My member friend is heading back out there tomorrow, lucky dog. I imagine one of those double cut pork chops has his name written all over it. I hope you all enjoy a weekend of great weather, great golf and great college football. Will the cinema room have any game of consequence on, say around 1:30MDT? ;)
Eric
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Who needs to judge the opinions of others, we should just agree, discuss or agree to disagree.
As for rant, no its just a comment to a new guy. You have done most of the ranting over this topic on both threads.
A little courtesy to a new guy may go a long way to making him feel welcome
Melvyn
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The point of my comment was right along the lines of what John M. wrote...I apologize for not being polite enough.
Diiscuss the details of Dismal River. Absolutely, that's the point of this website.
But I didn't see where that was happening...
Pages 1-4? ;D
You are correct, JC. Indeed you are correct.
You see, I have this affliction where I get hung up on B.S. It blinds me to all that is good.
When I read "masterpiece" and "Jack is arguably the best modern golf course architect" all I saw was technicolor. ::)
Then black.......then red. >:(
Here's hoping we can get back to discourse....and here's hoping Chris Johnston will bring some meat to the conversation.
I'd LOVE to know the truth behind the speculation.
Why has the course been tinkered with so? Spare me the politically correct version, let's get the dirt.
Why the changes?
What did the elements/weather show over the past two years?
Was the course unforgiving, too hard on high handicappers?
For the record, I am not a Nicklaus hater nor a Dismal River hater. I've always thought some of the holes looked spectacular....and I've also read a lot of things on this website that have driven at the fact the design was somewhat forced onto the landscape...and that they've run into problems because of that...
Why the changes - to make the course better. The Sand Hills are almost alive, quite hilly, the wind blows and the courses shift or change naturally. Several changes here have been for maintenance or drainage and/or playability in reaction to a sometime hostile environment. While a completely different personality than Sand Hills, Dismal is a blast! I really believe you will find few better courses anywhere.
Elements/weather: Bunkers are natural and change shape via wind or multi inch downpour in mere minutes.
Dismal is very forgiving but unlike most "home" courses - originally the roughs were high and thick and we have thinned this so a ball can be advanced with some effort. We keep the track fast.
You are misinformed, Jack moved less dirt than you could put in your garage to build the entire course. The holes were placed upon the existing topography - some of the greens should probably have been worked more - they have now been changed after the fact. The great thing here is you play most all the clubs and the lies are not boringly flat.
Michael, all courses are hard for high handicappers - that's why they are high handicappers! We had a fellow shoot 62 at Dismal two weeks ago, followed by a 65. Jack shot 68 in June. A new member shot 69.
You should come and see for yourself!
Eric - Yes, there will be a "bit of Red" on tomorrow. The Dismal 2x Chop is fast becomeing the signature dish!
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"Michael, all courses are hard for high handicappers - that's why they are high handicappers! "
That is not true. That is why the USGA has both a course rating and a slope rating.
What are the ratings for DR?
My brother plays a course with a slope rating of 106. He is a lousy golfer, but he can turn in fantastic scores for how bad he is.
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"Michael, all courses are hard for high handicappers - that's why they are high handicappers! "
That is not true. That is why the USGA has both a course rating and a slope rating.
What are the ratings for DR?
My brother plays a course with a slope rating of 106. He is a lousy golfer, but he can turn in fantastic scores for how bad he is.
Garland, good point and point taken. Let me amend my point... most great courses are hard for high handicappers - that's why they are high handicappers! Can you name a great course that isn't so?
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"Michael, all courses are hard for high handicappers - that's why they are high handicappers! "
That is not true. That is why the USGA has both a course rating and a slope rating.
What are the ratings for DR?
My brother plays a course with a slope rating of 106. He is a lousy golfer, but he can turn in fantastic scores for how bad he is.
Garland, good point and point taken. Let me amend my point... most great courses are hard for high handicappers - that's why they are high handicappers! Can you name a great course that isn't so?
TOC and many of the classics.
This seems to be something Jack has never learned.
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Chris,
It occurred to me to do something I have never done before. Go on ghin.com and get course ratings.
Here in a nutshell is why many will not think Dismal River is great, yet why Pacific Dunes is one of the greatest courses of the modern era.
Jack has completely ignored a fundamental value in the design of great courses. Allowing the higher handicapper to get around and enjoy himself.
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Bandon Dunes - Pacific Dunes Bandon OR
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
ORANGE 69.3 118 35.2 34.1 97.1 W
GOLD 73.1 126 37.5 35.6 102.9 W
BLACK 71.5 129 36.5 35.0 95.5 M
GREEN 69.3 125 35.3 34.0 92.5 M
GOLD 67.6 122 34.5 33.1 90.2 M
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Dismal River Club Mullen NE
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
Blue 73.2 139 36.5 36.7 98.9 M
Deer 75.1 142 37.3 37.8 101.4 M
Green 70.3 124 34.8 35.5 99.4 W
White 76.7 145 37.9 38.8 110.9 W
Pheasant 74.3 136 36.6 37.7 106.3 W
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Chris,
Much thx for the responses....
As a clarification, when I said the course was forced onto the landscape, I was really thinking something else....and that is this:
When Dismal River originally came onto GCA.com's radar, there was talk that Jack never bothered visiting Sand Hills GC before designing and building DR.
There was also talk that perhaps in the name of only moving "a garage full" of dirt, the Nicklaus crew tried too hard to not disturb the existing topography when perhaps in places they should have. After all, as you mentioned, this is a volatile environment where a lot of shifting around takes place.
As a result, perhaps the course weathered poorly, was severe in places, stuff washed out, eroded away and played extremely harsh.
As I'm sure you are aware, Dr. Alistair Mackenzie said the goal of golf course architecture should be to make man-made "artificial" features indistinguishable from nature herself. Not moving a ton of dirt on a glorious sight is great, but not at the expense of golf features that will not stand the test of time.
Do you know if it is true that the Nicklaus camp never visited with nor consulted with any of the Sand Hills blokes? It's always been my understanding that if you want to learn vicariously how your golf course is going to react in a particular environment, you might consider visiting the guys down the road who have been living it!
I've always been curious about that....and if it is true the Nicklaus camp never visited Sand Hills GC, I've got to wonder why...
Lastly, shouldn't golf be fun for high handicappers as well as low? Dr. Alistair MacKenzie certainly thought so. Shouldn't the term "great course" be applied to a lay out that fits the bill for both classes of player, the expert and the lesser skilled alike???
I'm glad you guys are thinning out the rough....losing balls all day long isn't my idea of a good time. I'm also thrilled to hear you are working on the walking paths, the option of walking certainly shouldn't take lesser priority than carts.
It will be interesting to see if this revamped iteration of DR draws any top 100 list accolades.
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Garland...
I think the middle tees at Dismal River are rated 73.3/139. I might be off a bit, but that is close.
And, I think your point is spot on...Dismal should prove to be very challenging for a high handicapper.
I loved the place and the course, but I think die hard walkers and higher handicappers might not love the course.
EDIT...I don't know what is wrong with me, I guess I missed the last 2 or 3 posts prior to my posting this one. I think it is redundant. Apologies.
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...
EDIT...I don't know what is wrong with me, I guess I missed the last 2 or 3 posts prior to my posting this one. I think it is redundant. Apologies.
Nothing wrong with you. If you look at the date stamps, you will see that 3 posts were made in the same minute including this one. You were simply providing your original feed back while were were hitting enter just before you hit enter.
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Chris,
It occurred to me to do something I have never done before. Go on ghin.com and get course ratings.
Here in a nutshell is why many will not think Dismal River is great, yet why Pacific Dunes is one of the greatest courses of the modern era.
Jack has completely ignored a fundamental value in the design of great courses. Allowing the higher handicapper to get around and enjoy himself.
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Bandon Dunes - Pacific Dunes Bandon OR
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
ORANGE 69.3 118 35.2 34.1 97.1 W
GOLD 73.1 126 37.5 35.6 102.9 W
BLACK 71.5 129 36.5 35.0 95.5 M
GREEN 69.3 125 35.3 34.0 92.5 M
GOLD 67.6 122 34.5 33.1 90.2 M
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Dismal River Club Mullen NE
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
Blue 73.2 139 36.5 36.7 98.9 M
Deer 75.1 142 37.3 37.8 101.4 M
Green 70.3 124 34.8 35.5 99.4 W
White 76.7 145 37.9 38.8 110.9 W
Pheasant 74.3 136 36.6 37.7 106.3 W
Garland: Dismal has no water, trees, or creeks. Fairways are quite wide and we allow for the ground game on most holes. The only equalizer is wind, just like #1 and unrated Sand Hills. I would submit that Pacific Dunes, while shorter overall, is far more challenging in wind and the rough there is far more penal. At PD, that 460 yard par 4 with a cliff on the right side sure isn't friendly to mid to high handicappers. Dismal has some forced carries but we also have tee locations to help those who need it. Most here finish with the same ball they began with. The course is well thought out.
Michael - the original greens were more severe but have beem dialed down. I give Jack credit for making the change rather than stubbornly holding out. The course changes by nature not by design flaw - its a part of the Sand Hills. There is nothing harsh about Dismal River except for elevation change. Also, I believe the Nicklaus team did visit Sand Hills.
Mac - Dismal is very walkable - I will be doing so tomorrow.
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:-X
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Mac - Dismal is very walkable - I will be doing so tomorrow.
I tend to agree with you Chris, as I mentioned several times in this thread, with proper walking trails cut from tees to fairways it should be similar in difficulty to walking SH.
Mac - Remember the 2 older couples that walked in front of us at SH? We never saw them again after number 1 and we were in carts!
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Dismal River isn't Sand Hills. "Very walkable" isn't how I would describe it...at all.
I appreciate Chris' comments, but couldn't disagree more with that comment and his insinuation that it is a course that the high handicapper would enjoy.
Frank and honest discussion is what I am up for. If that is his opinion and your opinion...great. It is not mine and some of the tone of this entire thread seems to have shifted away from golf architecture discussion and seems a bit salesy to me. Therefore, I will bow out of it and simply watch from the sidelines.
Eric...it has been a great thread! Thanks for getting it going.
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Chris,
It occurred to me to do something I have never done before. Go on ghin.com and get course ratings.
Here in a nutshell is why many will not think Dismal River is great, yet why Pacific Dunes is one of the greatest courses of the modern era.
Jack has completely ignored a fundamental value in the design of great courses. Allowing the higher handicapper to get around and enjoy himself.
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Bandon Dunes - Pacific Dunes Bandon OR
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
ORANGE 69.3 118 35.2 34.1 97.1 W
GOLD 73.1 126 37.5 35.6 102.9 W
BLACK 71.5 129 36.5 35.0 95.5 M
GREEN 69.3 125 35.3 34.0 92.5 M
GOLD 67.6 122 34.5 33.1 90.2 M
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Dismal River Club Mullen NE
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
Blue 73.2 139 36.5 36.7 98.9 M
Deer 75.1 142 37.3 37.8 101.4 M
Green 70.3 124 34.8 35.5 99.4 W
White 76.7 145 37.9 38.8 110.9 W
Pheasant 74.3 136 36.6 37.7 106.3 W
Garland: Dismal has no water, trees, or creeks. Fairways are quite wide and we allow for the ground game on most holes. The only equalizer is wind, just like #1 and unrated Sand Hills. I would submit that Pacific Dunes, while shorter overall, is far more challenging in wind and the rough there is far more penal. At PD, that 460 yard par 4 with a cliff on the right side sure isn't friendly to mid to high handicappers. Dismal has some forced carries but we also have tee locations to help those who need it. Most here finish with the same ball they began with. The course is well thought out.
Michael - the original greens were more severe but have beem dialed down. I give Jack credit for making the change rather than stubbornly holding out. The course changes by nature not by design flaw - its a part of the Sand Hills. There is nothing harsh about Dismal River except for elevation change. Also, I believe the Nicklaus team did visit Sand Hills.
Mac - Dismal is very walkable - I will be doing so tomorrow.
Chris,
I think the objectively derived ratings speak for themselves.
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Dismal River isn't Sand Hills. "Very walkable" isn't how I would describe it...at all.
I appreciate Chris' comments, but couldn't disagree more with that comment and his insinuation that it is a course that the high handicapper would enjoy.
Frank and honest discussion is what I am up for. If that is his opinion and your opinion...great. It is not mine and some of the tone of this entire thread seems to have shifted away from golf architecture discussion and seems a bit salesy to me. Therefore, I will bow out of it and simply watch from the sidelines.
Eric...it has been a great thread! Thanks for getting it going.
Mac, my friend:
I love your candor, and I appreciate it. Obviously you don't agree with Chris' walkability assessment or mine and that's fine.
But remember too, you have said many times, to me and on gca, that you have a difficult time envisioning what you can't see, or something to that effect. I think you would also find Sand Hills to be a difficult walk as well. But others walk it all the time. Again, with trails to get through the native and down the sand hills at Dismal River, I would bet it would be maybe a degree more difficult (on a scale of 1-10) than Sand Hills, due to some more abrupt terrain, but not unwalkable. There are courses near me, take the Bob Cupp course at Rarity Pointe in Knoxville for example - the green to tee transfers there are sometimes a quarter of a mile! Rediculous I say. Dismal River's are close to one another. The hardest part IMO of walking that course is walking in the soft sand down some of these slopes in front of the tees. That will have to be worked on and it sounds as though Chris and his team are indeed working on it. I'd like to give it a try next time out.
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Damn it, Eric. I say I am going to bow out of the thread and you pull me right back in!!! >:( :)
This is what I mean by salesy. Chris says the course is "very walkable". However, you say that Sand Hills would be a difficult walk, but doable. You then say Dismal would be a notch harder than Sand Hills, but again still walkable. I agree with that assessment. But to say it is "very walkable"...well, I just think that is a totally incorrect statement and comes off to me as salesy.
Concerning the rest of your post on the walkability of Dismal and what needs to take place to enhance that...again I agree and think you said it quite well.
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Hey Mac, I want to ride in the Hummer cart and drink a lot of beer when I'm at Dismal, you know that! Very is probably much I would agree. But Chris may think it is, he probably has walked it, so maybe he knows it is. It is his opinion and I'm glad that he's shared it here.
Let's send Rob Rigg out to Dismal River asap for a second opinion. :)
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Garland. Could you please decifer what the numbers say? I don't get the whole system and believe that they are not objective. Rather flawed when it comes to rating courses where wind, firm turf and short grass are the hazards. Sans trees, rough and water the system likely breaks down.
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Garland. Could you please decifer what the numbers say? I don't get the whole system and believe that they are not objective. Rather flawed when it comes to rating courses where wind, firm turf and short grass are the hazards. Sans trees, rough and water the system likely breaks down.
It's really very simple Adam. Look at the bogey golfer numbers.
Depending on tees, the bogey golfer is expected to shoot 97.1, 102.9, 95.5, 92.5, or 90.2 at Pacific Dunes. I'll let you do the rounding.
At Dismal River it is 98.9 101.4 99.4 110.9, or 106.3.
That means the bogey golfer is going to shoot 7 or 8 strokes more at Dismal River. I don't have the exact definition of a bogey golfer at hand, but it is someone who actually shoots a little more than bogey on each hole. It's an index some where around 20.0 if I recall correctly.
The other thing to notice is that the slope ratings are all significantly higher. That means as you get worse that the bogey golfer, your scores rise faster at Dismal River than at Pacific Dunes.
If you don't believe they are objective, then you best throw away any measuring device and start giving your subjective opinion on distances. Since the overriding thing in these ratings is distance, and my yard stick is very close to your yard stick in length. I think you have to conclude they are objective.
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Chris,
It occurred to me to do something I have never done before. Go on ghin.com and get course ratings.
Here in a nutshell is why many will not think Dismal River is great, yet why Pacific Dunes is one of the greatest courses of the modern era.
Jack has completely ignored a fundamental value in the design of great courses. Allowing the higher handicapper to get around and enjoy himself.
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Bandon Dunes - Pacific Dunes Bandon OR
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
ORANGE 69.3 118 35.2 34.1 97.1 W
GOLD 73.1 126 37.5 35.6 102.9 W
BLACK 71.5 129 36.5 35.0 95.5 M
GREEN 69.3 125 35.3 34.0 92.5 M
GOLD 67.6 122 34.5 33.1 90.2 M
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Dismal River Club Mullen NE
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
Blue 73.2 139 36.5 36.7 98.9 M
Deer 75.1 142 37.3 37.8 101.4 M
Green 70.3 124 34.8 35.5 99.4 W
White 76.7 145 37.9 38.8 110.9 W
Pheasant 74.3 136 36.6 37.7 106.3 W
Garland: Dismal has no water, trees, or creeks. Fairways are quite wide and we allow for the ground game on most holes. The only equalizer is wind, just like #1 and unrated Sand Hills. I would submit that Pacific Dunes, while shorter overall, is far more challenging in wind and the rough there is far more penal. At PD, that 460 yard par 4 with a cliff on the right side sure isn't friendly to mid to high handicappers. Dismal has some forced carries but we also have tee locations to help those who need it. Most here finish with the same ball they began with. The course is well thought out.
Michael - the original greens were more severe but have beem dialed down. I give Jack credit for making the change rather than stubbornly holding out. The course changes by nature not by design flaw - its a part of the Sand Hills. There is nothing harsh about Dismal River except for elevation change. Also, I believe the Nicklaus team did visit Sand Hills.
Mac - Dismal is very walkable - I will be doing so tomorrow.
Chris,
I think the objectively derived ratings speak for themselves.
Garland
I won't debate the subjectivity of course ratings in general. Dismal River has not been re-rated since several greens were reworked and since the rough was made far less penal. So, despite the numbers, they don't speak for themselves - they are no longer correct and well on the high side. Like Sand Hills, the numbers are of no importance to us - course and slope rating are almost impossible with wind from several different directions. Simple fact is Dismal is far more playable these days, for all handicap levels and if re-rated, it would be slightly below Pacific Dunes.
Mac - I'm simply trying to answer questions as posed. If being positive about Dismal River, the course and experience is "salesy", so be it. It is a terrifric place. Like most courses, if a high handicapper played the proper tees, it would be enjoyable and quite fair. Have you ever walked Sand Hills or Dismal River? I walk Sand Hills most times and both are very walkable for me. Yes, there are long up and down hill trudges on soft sand - at both. I have personally reviewed our trails this week and have enhanced a few.
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So Chris,
The Dismal River ratings may be too high. But that doesn't take away from my point of Jack's ratings in general being significantly higher.
Three more examples each from ghin.com for courses by Tom and Jack.
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Bandon Dunes - Old Macdonald Golf Links Bandon OR
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
GREEN 71.3 127 34.1 37.2 94.9 M
BLACK 74.1 133 35.3 38.8 98.8 M
Gold 73.9 129 35.6 38.3 104.2 W
ORANGE 65.4 110 31.7 33.7 85.9 M
Orange 70.4 118 33.8 36.6 98.2 W
GOLD 68.2 119 33.1 35.1 90.2 M
Green 77.7 136 37.0 40.7 109.8 W
ROYAL BLUE 62.6 104 30.5 32.1 81.9 M
Royal Blue 66.4 108 31.6 34.8 91.9 W
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Ballyneal Golf & Hunt Club Holyoke CO
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
Green 72.1 120 35.9 36.2 100.4 W
White 74.1 126 36.6 37.5 103.8 W
Fairway 69.8 115 35.1 34.7 96.9 W
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Lost Dunes Golf Club Bridgman MI
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
Members 72.5 137 35.8 36.7 98.0 M
Red 72.4 133 36.3 36.1 103.6 W
Black 73.9 140 36.8 37.1 99.9 M
White 71.6 135 35.6 36.0 96.7 M
Members 73.6 135 36.9 36.7 105.3 W
White 77.9 144 39.0 38.9 111.8 W
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Muirfield Village Golf Club DUBLIN OH
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
Red 73.2 134 37.0 36.2 104.9 W
White 76.8 141 39.0 37.8 110.0 W
Memorial 76.6 150 38.0 38.6 104.5 M
White 71.4 138 35.8 35.6 97.1 M
Blue 73.5 143 36.6 36.9 100.1 M
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Castle Pines Golf Club Castle Rock CO
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
4 Bird 72.0 140 36.4 35.6 104.8 W
Int'l 77.1 155 38.7 38.4 105.9 M
1 Bird 76.1 150 38.1 38.0 104.0 M
3 Bird 71.0 139 35.6 35.4 96.7 M
4 Bird 67.8 137 33.8 34.0 93.2 M
2 Bird 73.8 147 37.0 36.8 101.1 M
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Mayacama Golf Club Santa Rosa CA
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
Forward 69.8 122 35.6 34.2 98.6 W
Ladies Back 72.2 132 37.6 34.6 103.4 W
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Chris,
Glad you are working on making DR more walkable - love to hear that.
The paths really make a huge difference in terms of walkability when you can access the fairway on a path that leads directly there from the tee, instead of having to walk around on the cart paths.
Even on a "long'ish" walk it makes the journey a lot more enjoyable and manageable.
Mac,
Yeah - Sand Hills is a "Yellow" for me in terms of walkability (and has also been rated as such by numerous other TWGS members). If you are in good shape then 36 a day would be possible but I know a lot of guys tend to walk their morning round and then hop in carts to get as much golf in over the rest of the day. Definitely not a "green".
If DR is a notch below SH then it is probably still a yellow - 2.25 or 2.5 out of 4 - I think SH is probably 2.5 or 2.75 out of 4 for Walkability.
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So Chris,
The Dismal River ratings may be too high. But that doesn't take away from my point of Jack's ratings in general being significantly higher.
Three more examples each from ghin.com for courses by Tom and Jack.
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Bandon Dunes - Old Macdonald Golf Links Bandon OR
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
GREEN 71.3 127 34.1 37.2 94.9 M
BLACK 74.1 133 35.3 38.8 98.8 M
Gold 73.9 129 35.6 38.3 104.2 W
ORANGE 65.4 110 31.7 33.7 85.9 M
Orange 70.4 118 33.8 36.6 98.2 W
GOLD 68.2 119 33.1 35.1 90.2 M
Green 77.7 136 37.0 40.7 109.8 W
ROYAL BLUE 62.6 104 30.5 32.1 81.9 M
Royal Blue 66.4 108 31.6 34.8 91.9 W
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Ballyneal Golf & Hunt Club Holyoke CO
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
Green 72.1 120 35.9 36.2 100.4 W
White 74.1 126 36.6 37.5 103.8 W
Fairway 69.8 115 35.1 34.7 96.9 W
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Lost Dunes Golf Club Bridgman MI
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
Members 72.5 137 35.8 36.7 98.0 M
Red 72.4 133 36.3 36.1 103.6 W
Black 73.9 140 36.8 37.1 99.9 M
White 71.6 135 35.6 36.0 96.7 M
Members 73.6 135 36.9 36.7 105.3 W
White 77.9 144 39.0 38.9 111.8 W
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Muirfield Village Golf Club DUBLIN OH
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
Red 73.2 134 37.0 36.2 104.9 W
White 76.8 141 39.0 37.8 110.0 W
Memorial 76.6 150 38.0 38.6 104.5 M
White 71.4 138 35.8 35.6 97.1 M
Blue 73.5 143 36.6 36.9 100.1 M
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Castle Pines Golf Club Castle Rock CO
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
4 Bird 72.0 140 36.4 35.6 104.8 W
Int'l 77.1 155 38.7 38.4 105.9 M
1 Bird 76.1 150 38.1 38.0 104.0 M
3 Bird 71.0 139 35.6 35.4 96.7 M
4 Bird 67.8 137 33.8 34.0 93.2 M
2 Bird 73.8 147 37.0 36.8 101.1 M
Course Rating Search Results
Club/Course Name City State
Mayacama Golf Club Santa Rosa CA
Tee Name USGA Course Rating (18) Slope Rating (18) Front Back Bogey Rating (18) Gender
Forward 69.8 122 35.6 34.2 98.6 W
Ladies Back 72.2 132 37.6 34.6 103.4 W
Garland
As this is a thread about Dismal River, I thought it appropriate to elaborate on the rating as it relates to the question of higher handicappers. We are very playable and I hope you now see this. My Dad is 79 and he enjoys Dismal from the proper tees. I can offer no opinion on the other designs or their ratings.
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Change of subject Chris,
I don't know much about Project X shafts. However, I have played with two people recently that had them in their clubs. What struck me is that the logo was on the bottom of the shaft instead of the top like you see in most clubs. Were these two golfers ashamed of their shafts and trying to hide the logo? ;D Or, are Project X shafts welded on the side that has the logo so that is the proper way to install the shaft?
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Garland,
The PX stickers are put on after the shaft has been installed - hence the consistency.
Spine aligning and FLOing the shafts will ensure they are installed correctly.
You can tweak the N plane for fade or draw bias if necessary - or something.
The stickers still go on the bottom after all that fun.
True Temper are "copying" what the larger "Project X" sticker style on their tour player's sticks.
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Change of subject Chris,
I don't know much about Project X shafts. However, I have played with two people recently that had them in their clubs. What struck me is that the logo was on the bottom of the shaft instead of the top like you see in most clubs. Were these two golfers ashamed of their shafts and trying to hide the logo? ;D Or, are Project X shafts welded on the side that has the logo so that is the proper way to install the shaft?
Garland
The shaft sticker on Px was put on the bottom of the shaft so it isn't visible by the player at address. We didn't do a traditional around the shaft band because many on tour don't want them (some do) - for some it is a distraction. The Px shaft band does show up on the finish of the swing, and most photos are taken in this position. The sticker has nothing to do with the weld, just the pure look of the shaft at address. And, when we introduced the shaft, we wanted something different than the regular Rifle family look - the band was part as was the satin finish in the early runs.
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Change of subject Chris,
I don't know much about Project X shafts. However, I have played with two people recently that had them in their clubs. What struck me is that the logo was on the bottom of the shaft instead of the top like you see in most clubs. Were these two golfers ashamed of their shafts and trying to hide the logo? ;D Or, are Project X shafts welded on the side that has the logo so that is the proper way to install the shaft?
Why the hijack? This has been a very, very interesting thread. from the peanut gallery, please keep it on track.
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Change of subject Chris,
I don't know much about Project X shafts. However, I have played with two people recently that had them in their clubs. What struck me is that the logo was on the bottom of the shaft instead of the top like you see in most clubs. Were these two golfers ashamed of their shafts and trying to hide the logo? ;D Or, are Project X shafts welded on the side that has the logo so that is the proper way to install the shaft?
Why the hijack? This has been a very, very interesting thread. from the peanut gallery, please keep it on track.
I'm off to walk the unwalkable right now with the Dismal Dogs. If I don't survive, tell my wife and family I love them!
The shaft question was due to my former involvement with Royal Precision.
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Change of subject Chris,
I don't know much about Project X shafts. However, I have played with two people recently that had them in their clubs. What struck me is that the logo was on the bottom of the shaft instead of the top like you see in most clubs. Were these two golfers ashamed of their shafts and trying to hide the logo? ;D Or, are Project X shafts welded on the side that has the logo so that is the proper way to install the shaft?
Why the hijack? This has been a very, very interesting thread. from the peanut gallery, please keep it on track.
I'm off to walk the unwalkable right now with the Dismal Dogs. If I don't survive, tell my wife and family I love them!
The shaft question was due to my former involvement with Royal Precision.
Just returned from a spectacular day, mid 80's, not a wisp of wind. Walked (carried) all 18 holes. Peaceful and quiet...a monastery? Saw a jackrabbit the size of a small child. Shot 74. Played the same ball all day.
Like our neighbor, it's a trudge but well worth the effort.
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Did you wear a pedometer? Interested to know total distance so I can make sure walkability rating is accurate on TWG.
Even ballpark would be helpful if you can.
Thanks
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Did you wear a pedometer? Interested to know total distance so I can make sure walkability rating is accurate on TWG.
Even ballpark would be helpful if you can.
Thanks
Rob
I played 6,800 yards today and the tees are close to the greens here at Dismal - no long walks except 18 tee up the hill.
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Garland et al, I recall Jack being quoted prior to the original opening making a comment about how players enjoy getting beat up. The current course proves that that comment was horribly flawed. DR is now not only fun to play but also a fine examination of shot making skills both aerial and lower trajectory. There's no question the setting is peaceful and for many spiritual. Its most endearing quality I felt was how it repeatedly tempts the heroic.
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Chris,
Thanks for the input - I've always marveled at Dismal River from its inception and it's nice to see many positive comments from those who have been fortunate enough to visit. The sand hills are a special place, aren't they?
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Garland et al, I recall Jack being quoted prior to the original opening making a comment about how players enjoy getting beat up. The current course proves that that comment was horribly flawed. DR is now not only fun to play but also a fine examination of shot making skills both aerial and lower trajectory. There's no question the setting is peaceful and for many spiritual. Its most endearing quality I felt was how it repeatedly tempts the heroic.
Well said, Adam! The course certainly does tempt the heroic! Hope to see you soon.
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Chris,
Thanks for the input - I've always marveled at Dismal River from its inception and it's nice to see many positive comments from those who have been fortunate enough to visit. The sand hills are a special place, aren't they?
Thanks, Scott! The Sand Hills are truly special, even for the doubters. Thanks to all for a warm welcome. When are you coming back out?
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Chris, what is your target date for closing this fall?
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Chris, what is your target date for closing this fall?
Closing 1st Sunday in October. You coming out this way?
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I'm mulling that over as we type... ;D
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I'm mulling that over as we type... ;D
Come on out! We love those who appreciate the game.
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Chris, Any chance you would consider keeping the flags in, the course open, but without the facilities open? So, just in case the weather holds through October, people could still come out to play? I realize staffing and other considerations go into making the closing date, but it seems a shame to not have the course open for day trips, from some of your members. (or enthusiasts ) ;)
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Chris, Any chance you would consider keeping the flags in, the course open, but without the facilities open? So, just in case the weather holds through October, people could still come out to play? I realize staffing and other considerations go into making the closing date, but it seems a shame to not have the course open for day trips, from some of your members. (or enthusiasts ) ;)
Adam - we will commence on some construction in early October but the irrigation will stay on into November. She may be shaggy bit a select few can still play it before we put her to bed. I just played 9 with JC!
If you can get up before then, just give me a call.