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Jason Topp

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #100 on: May 31, 2011, 04:34:54 PM »
I can have fun on any course and have had several that I initially hated but grew to appreciate their unique challenges over time.

Nonetheless, I think it is as important to identify courses you do not like as it is to identify courses you like.  Here are some that have been difficult to enjoy in the past:

Olympic Hills – Eden Prairie, MN – course has been chopped up somewhat to sell land for housing.  Holes on the South side of the course are pretty interesting and enjoyable.  Courses on the North side are flat, swampy and make no sense.

Stow Acres South – MA – tunnels of trees and 6 hour rounds.  I still had a great time playing the course because of my playing companions.

Minnetonka Country Club, Minnetonka, MN: features bog-like conditions and trees blocking approach shots.  Joe Goldstrand did some work on the course to create some truly goofy greens.

Wolf Creek – Mesquite, NV – discussed extensively elsewhere.

PGA West – Norman Course, CA – I liked the bunker style but the holes felt like funnels.

Angeles National – CA – environmental restrictions and a blind pond in the drive zone on 18 make this course a walk on the goofy side.

Medina CC, MN – Might be ok with experience but for the once every other year guest the greens are random moguls and the course is long.

ASU Karsten Course – Tempe – I think Doak got this one right with his 0 rating.

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #101 on: May 31, 2011, 04:45:22 PM »
My most recent "least fun" course would be the Ritz Carlton Dove Mountain.  Although the greens were pretty fun, getting to them was like multiple kicks to the nuts.



I enjoyed the heck out of that course. I hit it so bad the day I played, but still didn't find it it to be that evil. It was wider than a lot of desert courses and the places you REALLY didn't want to be announced themselves quite clearly. Not the most fun course in AZ, but I liked it.

I would say the front nine of TPC Scottsdale (Stadium) is the least fun set of holes I can think of (it picks up on the back). Just boring golf. Play in the afternoon so you might at least see some bikinis by the pool at the Princess.

Jud_T

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #102 on: May 31, 2011, 05:03:36 PM »
I would say Talking Stick in AZ was one of the least fun courses I've played.

I just didn't get this course. It was years before I even knew about GCA so maybe I would think differently about it now. However, I doubt I would play it again if I went back to AZ.

Harris, I think you would like the North better now.  (Hopefully you didn't play TS South, not anywhere near as interesting.)

A "least fun course" to me is one that has no variety, no strategic challenge and no tactical options.  TS North has all three in spades.  A few examples, with alternate playing lines, decisions from the tee:

[

Bill,

Couldn't agree more. 
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

PCCraig

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #103 on: May 31, 2011, 05:06:41 PM »
2. Bellerive (Terrible in its original design and now really a bore)


I can't wait to play in their member guest next week. What do you think would help the course? Maybe a driveable par 4? More variety in the par 3s? Do you think C&C or Doak could make it more fun?

More variety in the par 3s? #3 is anywhere from a 5-8 iron to a double tiered green, #6 is anywhere from a 7 to 3 iron to a very hard kidney shaped green, #13 is a really pretty short iron in a back corner of the property, and #16 is a long iron/hybrid/wood long par 3 to a huge green. I think there is decent variety there with the par 3's being a strong part of the design.

As for a drivable par4, #2 can be played as a drivable par 4. It's a hybrid/short iron from the back tees, and from the normal tees it could be played as a 300ish par-4 with water in front and behind the green. A Doak or Ross esque short par 4? Maybe not, but it could be done.

Dave E doesn't seem to be a fan of the R. Jones / RTJ / Nicklaus championship school of design.

When I mentioned par 3s, that was something my friend said. I still need to play the back nine. I know plenty of people that love Bellerive and when I mention I am playing in the member guest, I get lots of "wow" looks from people. I am looking forward to it nonetheless.

One man's variety is another man's "dull" :)

Report back what you think once you have a chance to play them.
H.P.S.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #104 on: May 31, 2011, 05:12:52 PM »
I agree with those who have said it's hard not to have fun just playing golf.  Having said that, my least fun course is Hains Point (aka East Potomac) in Washington, DC.  It's dead flat, the architecture couldn't be any more boring, and you have to dodge incoming balls from other holes several times a round.  It's a course that could use a tree infusion.

It's really too bad the course is so lame.  It's got a great location (on its own little island in the Potomac), the clubhouse has got everything you'd need, and you can always get fleeced by guys on the putting green who putt like Ben Crenshaw and know every millimeter of break out there.  

Greg Tallman

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #105 on: May 31, 2011, 05:15:58 PM »
Playacar Club de Golf - Playa del Carmen, Mexico
Mahogany Run - St. Thomas
Hilton Head National - Hilton Head (actually just off HH)
Gulf Harbour Yacht & CC - Fort Myers, FL

Worst course was Grenada Golf Club... but at least it was fun.

Bruce Katona

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #106 on: May 31, 2011, 05:18:23 PM »
Twin Brooks in Watching/Warren, NJ - Up and back holes lined by christmas trees.  I left after 16 holes, i could not take it (only time this ever occurred).

Garland Bayley

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #107 on: May 31, 2011, 06:15:05 PM »
...
Thing is, the fact that one has recovery options from trees, and does not from water, does not necessarily equate to "fun"

It might for you.

I can be "creative" from the fairway, thank you very much, so water hazards are not taking that away from me.
...

TopFlight is my ball of choice!

I can always "reload" (as you posted previously) at the driving range.
What's the point of hitting creative shots from the fairway if they are not needed? I can hit unneeded creative shots from the driving range all day too.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

DBE

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #108 on: May 31, 2011, 06:46:13 PM »
Pat Mucci, meant Mountain Ridge over Oak Hill West but, I'd prefer Mountain Lake over Mountain Ridge!  It almost cracks my top 20 fun courses.

With regard to US Open set ups, I only go personally back to 1983 at Oakmont.  Yes, I've read and heard all the set ups Joe Dey had (Oakland Hills called by Hogan as "the Monster" and the ridiculous rough at Olympic when Fleck beat Hogan. Starting in 1983 at Oakmont when it wet weather forced a Monday finish and ending with in 1995 at Shinnecock Hills, I either witnessed or implemented the set ups.  PJ had some tough years using his judgement when either sabotaged by host clubs (Oakmont in '83 when the rough was fertilized unbeknownst to him) or overruled or controlled by overzealous Championship Chairmen (Winged Foot in '74).  He pretty much used his knowledge as a good player in his set ups.  in fact, at Olympic in 1987 he had the 17th and 18th greens only single cut each day (and we all know what a debacle the 18th green, particularly the Friday hole placement caused in 1998.  My set ups started in 1992. My philosophy was that things should be difficult but not nearly impossible.  My rule of thumb was to never set up a hole or shot I was unable to play myself. I frequently moved par three tees around so players would have to play a long shot, a short iron and two medium length shots.  I also moved tees on par fours and fives for interest or weather conditions.  Starting with Pebble Beach, it had just been regrassed everywhere except the greens with rye and I chose to widen most of the fairways given the overall firmness and slopes on several holes (2, 6, 9, 10, 11 & 15).  Without a forecast of sun and wind on Sunday, the course played well. 1993 was at Baltusrol Lower. Though there's a lot of history with US Opens there, the course in my estimation lacks character except for a few holes.  Rees Jones had built a few new tees, expanded some greens and reshaped a few bunkers.  Without a sufficient irrigation system and with a bone dry spring, the rough outside the gallery ropes was dry and wispy. The course played relatively easy for players whose drives ended up in these roughs as they could easily bounce & roll balls onto greens that had no fronting bunkers.  At Oakmont in 1994 I was unable to make any set up changes to the way the Women's Open played the course in 1992 as the club got the USGA to agree to that.  The course played OK but I had a Championship Chairman who insisted on setting up the course (mainly hole placements on greens) that were frequently too much on slopes (best score on #2 was 6 and everyone three putted #6 in playoff).  Ironically, the green speeds started the morning at 12 feet but by late in the afternoon had slowed to 10 1/2' due to the poa anna growing.  And, there even was a drivable par four every day! 1995 at Shinnecock Hills was the best of the four US Opens I set up.  I was left alone for the set up and was able to widen quite a few fairways from where they were for 1986.  I also selected some areas around greens to be fairway cut grass, thus allowing something other than blast shots from long, thick rough around these greens (I think nearly every green had some of this).  I do remember Virgil Sherrill wanting to build the new tee on #17.  Fortunately, the wind blew from three directions during the four rounds and the new tee was used on either Thursday or Friday when it was right to left.  I do remember bumping into a member at dinner on Friday and was blasted for the course playing too easy! Sunday night his opinion had changed, needless to say. When I left, for the next few years, set ups were done by a long time staff member whose handicap might have been 8.  His method was to go back to "balls to the walls" golf.  The US Opens at Bethpage and Shinnecock Hills did nothing to improve the opinion of the USGA, especially with players and the media.  Mike Davis's philosophy is sound and liked for several reasons but none more than the simple set up mistakes or poor judgement between 1996 & 2004. There have been drivable par fours (Cherry Hills & Oakmont) but his graduated rough, which was implemented at Pebble Beach in 1992 but wasn't liked by a certain USGA past president, has been his best implemented change of thinking.  I applaud the USGA in selecting him to not only set up the US Open courses but to have him running the joint.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #109 on: May 31, 2011, 07:00:23 PM »
DaveE,

Thanks for the insight on Open set-ups.

Mike Davis spoke at my Sept 17, 2010 get together.
He was very candid and informative.

Hopefully, he'll return and speak next Spring.

As to Mountain Lake and Mountain Ridge, I've long held that despite their inherent repetition, CBM-SR-CB courses are FUN to play, day in and day out.

I can't think of a CBM-SR-CB course that I haven't enjoyed.

As to Mountain Ridge, you nee to get back there, the changes are dramatic.

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #110 on: May 31, 2011, 11:53:55 PM »
Pat Mucci, meant Mountain Ridge over Oak Hill West but, I'd prefer Mountain Lake over Mountain Ridge!  It almost cracks my top 20 fun courses.

With regard to US Open set ups, I only go personally back to 1983 at Oakmont.  Yes, I've read and heard all the set ups Joe Dey had (Oakland Hills called by Hogan as "the Monster" and the ridiculous rough at Olympic when Fleck beat Hogan. Starting in 1983 at Oakmont when it wet weather forced a Monday finish and ending with in 1995 at Shinnecock Hills, I either witnessed or implemented the set ups.  PJ had some tough years using his judgement when either sabotaged by host clubs (Oakmont in '83 when the rough was fertilized unbeknownst to him) or overruled or controlled by overzealous Championship Chairmen (Winged Foot in '74).  He pretty much used his knowledge as a good player in his set ups.  in fact, at Olympic in 1987 he had the 17th and 18th greens only single cut each day (and we all know what a debacle the 18th green, particularly the Friday hole placement caused in 1998.  My set ups started in 1992. My philosophy was that things should be difficult but not nearly impossible.  My rule of thumb was to never set up a hole or shot I was unable to play myself. I frequently moved par three tees around so players would have to play a long shot, a short iron and two medium length shots.  I also moved tees on par fours and fives for interest or weather conditions.  Starting with Pebble Beach, it had just been regrassed everywhere except the greens with rye and I chose to widen most of the fairways given the overall firmness and slopes on several holes (2, 6, 9, 10, 11 & 15).  Without a forecast of sun and wind on Sunday, the course played well. 1993 was at Baltusrol Lower. Though there's a lot of history with US Opens there, the course in my estimation lacks character except for a few holes.  Rees Jones had built a few new tees, expanded some greens and reshaped a few bunkers.  Without a sufficient irrigation system and with a bone dry spring, the rough outside the gallery ropes was dry and wispy. The course played relatively easy for players whose drives ended up in these roughs as they could easily bounce & roll balls onto greens that had no fronting bunkers.  At Oakmont in 1994 I was unable to make any set up changes to the way the Women's Open played the course in 1992 as the club got the USGA to agree to that.  The course played OK but I had a Championship Chairman who insisted on setting up the course (mainly hole placements on greens) that were frequently too much on slopes (best score on #2 was 6 and everyone three putted #6 in playoff).  Ironically, the green speeds started the morning at 12 feet but by late in the afternoon had slowed to 10 1/2' due to the poa anna growing.  And, there even was a drivable par four every day! 1995 at Shinnecock Hills was the best of the four US Opens I set up.  I was left alone for the set up and was able to widen quite a few fairways from where they were for 1986.  I also selected some areas around greens to be fairway cut grass, thus allowing something other than blast shots from long, thick rough around these greens (I think nearly every green had some of this).  I do remember Virgil Sherrill wanting to build the new tee on #17.  Fortunately, the wind blew from three directions during the four rounds and the new tee was used on either Thursday or Friday when it was right to left.  I do remember bumping into a member at dinner on Friday and was blasted for the course playing too easy! Sunday night his opinion had changed, needless to say. When I left, for the next few years, set ups were done by a long time staff member whose handicap might have been 8.  His method was to go back to "balls to the walls" golf.  The US Opens at Bethpage and Shinnecock Hills did nothing to improve the opinion of the USGA, especially with players and the media.  Mike Davis's philosophy is sound and liked for several reasons but none more than the simple set up mistakes or poor judgement between 1996 & 2004. There have been drivable par fours (Cherry Hills & Oakmont) but his graduated rough, which was implemented at Pebble Beach in 1992 but wasn't liked by a certain USGA past president, has been his best implemented change of thinking.  I applaud the USGA in selecting him to not only set up the US Open courses but to have him running the joint.

David-

As I expected, that was you.  I remember reading your old post for 10+ years ago about Pine Valley and thinking, wow, that is David Egar, this website must be legit.

I also watched you this past Sunday against Watson.  Great golf that was.

To your post....I was at the 94 Open at Oakmont and it was brutal to watch in person.  I thought "that can't be a fun game to play". 

Anyway, it would be great if the USGA embraced "Choice" and "Recovery".

Choice off the tee to different strategies for any given hole, which usually means fairway width

And Recovery means giving the player a real chance to hit a shot on the green from a stray tee shot, which means not confining them to a sand wedge back to the fairway with five inch rough (think Seve).

ONE THING takes that out of the equation is narrow fairway and high rough.

I would love to hear your thoughts on those two maintenance practices that work their way in to every USGA situation.  Does resistance to score matter so much that the inventiveness of the game is ignored?  Does the public really care the winning score, or is it a Far Hills concern only?

I was at Pat's event at Mt Ridge last fall and listened to Mike Davis talk about architecture.  I sure hope some the ideas he talked about actually make it in to our national championships (and thus the golfing public, memberships, munis, etc)

I have to admit, the courses that are the least fun to me are often US Open courses (that membership never decided to take back to "member type" conditions).

Thanks for any and all thoughts and I truly appreciate your ideas and feedback!

Best,
Chip Gaskins

JMEvensky

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #111 on: June 01, 2011, 09:13:18 AM »
David E.,thanks for taking the time to type that.Interesting stuff.

Jim Franklin

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #112 on: June 01, 2011, 09:27:22 AM »
Yes, great stuff David. What would you do to Bellerive to make it a "more fun" course? Or is it going to survive as a beast with no chance at saving?
Mr Hurricane

Robert West

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #113 on: June 03, 2011, 12:56:17 AM »
While I am definitely of the mindset that golf pretty much always fun, I will post my first comment to this most excellent forum to say that the least fun course I've ever played was called Boulder Hills in Richmond, Rhode Island. I'm pretty sure it's NLE but it was the old Foxwoods Casino course before the new Rees Jones tracks were built. Apparently they would drive people over in a shuttle van to play this hilly and absurd course in the middle of the swamp. The first hole was a very very short par 3 with an elevated tee that was played parallel to the clubhouse just so everyone could watch you miss the first green of the day (there was no range). Then you drove, as carts were most certainly mandatory, a few hundred yards away and uphill to the 2nd tee. My uncle kept pointing out that every decent drive one of us hit ended up with a downhill lie to an elevated green or to a blind approach... I had a great time playing with my family but we agreed that there's such decent golf in the area so Foxwoods probably made the right decision in letting that one fall back into the swamp.

Mark Johnson

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #114 on: June 03, 2011, 11:06:35 AM »
My list (obviously ignoring public dumps which noone hear has probably heard of)

-- The Pete Dye Course at French Lick;  I love hard golf courses but this is on the wrong side of tough vs. Tricked up.   Having to carry a driver 250 to a 12-15 yard wide fairway is just wrong.

- Chambers Bay --  I played it right before the Am and it was just soo hard and fast.  I had well struck 5 irons into greens which were bouncing

- Medinah:  Just long and boring;  one of my tests for golf courses is would you still enjoying playing the course if it was 1000 yards shorter.   The answer is here a resounding no

- Sahalee:   Is there a golf course there?

- Blackwolf Run River Course:  Nowhere near the quality of the other Kohler courses; 

Garland Bayley

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #115 on: June 03, 2011, 11:32:18 AM »
...
- Chambers Bay --  I played it right before the Am and it was just soo hard and fast.  I had well struck 5 irons into greens which were bouncing
...

So you fault them for doing exactly what they are supposed to do? You must subscribe to the ridiculous Golf Digest criteria that the course must be fast and firm, but the greens receptive.

What Golf Digest needs to do is be receptive to logical thought.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Federman

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #116 on: June 03, 2011, 12:17:07 PM »
Commonwealth National - only played it once, but once was enough.

Mark Johnson

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #117 on: June 03, 2011, 12:37:41 PM »
...
- Chambers Bay --  I played it right before the Am and it was just soo hard and fast.  I had well struck 5 irons into greens which were bouncing
...

So you fault them for doing exactly what they are supposed to do? You must subscribe to the ridiculous Golf Digest criteria that the course must be fast and firm, but the greens receptive.

What Golf Digest needs to do is be receptive to logical thought.


no, im just saying it wasnt fun to play.

Sean Leary

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #118 on: June 03, 2011, 01:09:52 PM »
...
- Chambers Bay --  I played it right before the Am and it was just soo hard and fast.  I had well struck 5 irons into greens which were bouncing
...

So you fault them for doing exactly what they are supposed to do? You must subscribe to the ridiculous Golf Digest criteria that the course must be fast and firm, but the greens receptive.

What Golf Digest needs to do is be receptive to logical thought.


Even the USGA admitted it was firmer than they wanted it for the best Am's in the country. Way too hard for an average golfer when it was like that.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #119 on: June 03, 2011, 03:04:43 PM »
Has anyone mentioned Furry Creek yet?  The views AND the bear almost saved it but there's so much there that is just awful.

Sean Leary

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #120 on: June 03, 2011, 03:16:56 PM »
Has anyone mentioned Furry Creek yet?  The views AND the bear almost saved it but there's so much there that is just awful.

You saw my name and it reminded you of Furry Creek, huh ?

 That's not good. ;)

Garland Bayley

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #121 on: June 03, 2011, 03:50:07 PM »
...
- Chambers Bay --  I played it right before the Am and it was just soo hard and fast.  I had well struck 5 irons into greens which were bouncing
...

So you fault them for doing exactly what they are supposed to do? You must subscribe to the ridiculous Golf Digest criteria that the course must be fast and firm, but the greens receptive.

What Golf Digest needs to do is be receptive to logical thought.


Even the USGA admitted it was firmer than they wanted it for the best Am's in the country. Way too hard for an average golfer when it was like that.

So you and the USGA say it wasn't worth going to the British Isles to play golf until they added irrigation systems? ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill_McBride

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #122 on: June 03, 2011, 04:37:20 PM »
Has anyone mentioned Furry Creek yet?  The views AND the bear almost saved it but there's so much there that is just awful.

You saw my name and it reminded you of Furry Creek, huh ?

 That's not good. ;)

LOL!   Actually it just popped into my head........

Have you played there?   The views really are spectacular.......

Sean Leary

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #123 on: June 03, 2011, 04:40:13 PM »
Has anyone mentioned Furry Creek yet?  The views AND the bear almost saved it but there's so much there that is just awful.

You saw my name and it reminded you of Furry Creek, huh ?

 That's not good. ;)

LOL!   Actually it just popped into my head........

Have you played there?   The views really are spectacular.......

Yes. Its atrocious. A Doak zero if there ever was one..

Kalen Braley

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Re: Least Fun Courses You've Ever Played
« Reply #124 on: June 03, 2011, 05:00:51 PM »
Has anyone mentioned Furry Creek yet?  The views AND the bear almost saved it but there's so much there that is just awful.

You saw my name and it reminded you of Furry Creek, huh ?

 That's not good. ;)

LOL!   Actually it just popped into my head........

Have you played there?   The views really are spectacular.......

Yes. Its atrocious. A Doak zero if there ever was one..

That looks familiar, isn't that the course used when Happy Gilmore fights Bob Barker?

If so I guess they found a use for it...
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 05:05:11 PM by Kalen Braley »

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