Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Joel_Stewart on June 08, 2009, 04:57:11 PM
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THE CHANGES AT OLYMPIC LAKE’S 8th HOLE:
PROGRESS OR VANDALISM?
The Olympic Club is Americas oldest athletic club formed in 1860. From Payne Stewart’s never-ending putt on 18 in 1998, to Ben Hogan’s and Arnold Palmers slip, it has been the scene of history and controversy.
Now, the famed club faces controversy, again, with the redesign of its 7th and 8th holes.
The famed course has lost some of its persona. Its standing with all three major magazines has fallen. It once ranked 10th best course in America with Golf Digest, now it ranks 26th. Golf Magazine once placed it 23rd best in the world, now it ranks 45th.
The course has undergone multiple changes since it merged with Lakeside Country Club in 1922, including a major remodel by architect Sam Whiting in 1927. Numerous tweaks, namely changes by Robert Trent Jones prior to the 1955 US Open and again with Jones prior to the 1966 Open began a trend at Olympic Club of modernization which the club sadly can not bring to an end.
The work is particularly inexplicable considering the excellent restoration work performed at nearby clubs such as San Francisco Golf Club, California Golf Club and the Meadow Club
In the minds of some golf critics, the steep, uphill and blind par-3, 8th, never deserved much of a reputation. These critics may have been the ones who spent more time looking at it from the clubhouse, than playing it. Golfers found this short, deceptive hole to be eminently demanding. Miss-hits often caught tree limbs, or fell short into the deep and difficult front bunker. Even after good shots, players walked to the green with measures of uncertainty. Now the hole is gone, bulldozed by a superintendent and his personal friend, a golf architect, seeking more length for one week in June 2012 when the club hosts its 5th U.S. Open.
Here is an evolution of the hole and its sad demise as seen through historic photos.
Historians believe this to be one of the earliest pictures of the Lakeside CC course, from about 1920. It shows the tee shot to a fortress green. Walkways line the green on the left and right side of the flat bottom bunker.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3398/3581650407_67233b8db6.jpg?v=0)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3306/3581650315_15407a7311_o.jpg)
Another shot from the 1920's, showing the view from the clubhouse. The green has slightly square corners in a Biarritz style, although some historians argue that it has a swale in the middle. Either way, this version of the 8th provided a demanding tee shot to any level. In the 1930’s, the club split the bunker to make a walking path to the 9th tee.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3361/3582846754_4b04ffd1b4.jpg?v=0)
The 8th green during the 1955 US Open playoff between Hogan and Fleck. Observe one of America’s great unique bunkers, the classic finger bunker at the back of the green. Other bunkers had classical shape and natural looking mounding surrounding the bunkers.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3396/3586002556_51d6ba79b5_o.jpg)
The tee shot on the 8th in about 2005. The course had eliminated trees on the left side just before the 1998 US Open for safety reasons. By this time, the classic style walk off tee had been unnecessarily raised and expanded.
Green around 2005. The green had been "modernized" significantly by Robert Trent Jones Sr. prior to the 1966 US Open. Note how poor mowing patterns had turned the green into a circle and all the bunkers have lost their three dimensional rough edge look. The cart path runs across the middle of the fairway. The single bunker (on right) had been split (again) into two shapeless round pot bunkers.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2471/3582459290_c158f21ac9_o.jpg)
The 2006/2007 version, with work performed in house at a considerable cost. Extensive grading into the hill allowed the cart path to be extended around the green. The right side had been cleared away of brush and trees.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3327/3582040251_31b0c7aed2.jpg?v=0)
The once great finger bunker had become a small modern strip bunker without classical shape or character.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3377/3585895848_4883df5d19_b.jpg)
Today’s alteration of the Lake’s 8th really began in 2008, with the 7th green. The course superintendent convinced club officials to extend the 7th and raze the historic three tier green (described as one of the top 500 holes in the world) in preparation for the 2012 US Open. One move begat another, and forced changes to the 8th.
With a budget of over $1 million, work began in late 2008, with William (Bill) Love as the architect. Mr. Love was chosen over more qualified restoration architects due to his long time friendship with the superintendent. Mr. Love recommended his preferred contractor, Frontier Golf Construction as the contractor, again over more qualified restoration shapers and contractors. The superintendent and staff assisted. All 18 greens are converted to USGA specifications yet instead of seeding the greens, rolled in bent grass sod at a considerable additional cost.
The all new hole played from a different angle, June 2009. The green is shaped kidney style.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2429/3582518550_b841c79071.jpg?v=0)
Note: The old 8th tee is visible on the right side of this photo. The new 7th green addition jets out, slightly.
The path from the 7th green to the new 8th tee is now the longest on the course and is aesthetically typical of modernization at the club.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3348/3600896470_41904f8a62.jpg?v=0)
Another two dimensional oval bunker on the back right of the new 8th green. This style is consistent with the other bunkers maintained by the superintendent and built by the architect.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2469/3595565627_a1d3e472c1.jpg?v=0)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3603/3596370854_409749a89a.jpg?v=0)
The view from the tee. The large multi tiered tee area is out of context with most of the course except for other multiple tees that Mr. Love and the superintendent have installed over the last few years. The hole now plays 200 yards, up from 137 to 150 on the old 8th hole. All of Olympic Clubs par 3 holes now play middle to long in length. The hole continues to play up hill yet the front of the green is now open as opposed to the old hole which required a force carry over the bunker.
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I like the original one at the shorter distance.
Lester
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Joel,
Very nicely done post and appreciate the work and effot you put into it. I have to say I really like the look of the hole as it appears in the 1st two pictures. While I've never played Olympic, it sure seems it would have been best to save most of that money and restore that green complex to what it once was....what a neat looking little green.
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There's no substitute for taste
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Funny......my general manager is dying to play the Lake, and due to some contacts we may very well be playing it sometime this year. And all I can think about is, knowing him, I just know he would look at that hole through the eyes of that final picture, not having a clue as to the history of the hole, and would probably find it one of the most picturesque, demanding par 3s he's ever played. :(
As with most on this site, I too would have preferred the original. Maybe I should try to get my boss to visit this site more. ;)
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What year(s) were the palm trees planted?
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As with most on this site, I too would have preferred the original.
Let's let the 1496 or so speak for themselves.
I for one don't see the merit of a Biarritz green on an uphill 120-140 yd hole. Where the green is blind.
I also don't care for the forest that was brought to the sand dunes.
But, maybe I'm wrong...maybe it actually was a better Biarritz example than #9 at Yale.
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I also like the tree work that had been done as of 2005/2006.
Since then, it appears that Christmas trees have started plugging-up the place.
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I for one don't see the merit of a Biarritz green on an uphill 120-140 yd hole. Where the green is blind.
Kevin, Please elaborate why you don't think it has merit?
One of the cool aspects of having a blind one shot hole is the anticipation and doubt as one climbs to the reveal. Having a green with a Biarritz like swale, would only accentuate that doubt, enhancing the anticipation. Once revealed, depending on the ball's and pin positions, the golfer's next task was either eased or further tested. What's not to merit?
Joel, An excellent example of a quality GCA thread. Your comment about the fads that have invaded the Cal and Meadow club's had wonderful subtext, illustrating that there are factions holding on to their priceless god given right to be ignorant, subjective and ordinary. What was that word you used? Oh yes,,,consistent. Well done!
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Adam,
As you know, Tour Pros don't like doubt. Plus, the groans, ooohs, ahs and whatever would probably tell them just where there ball ended up.
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Kevin, Please elaborate why you don't think it has merit?
One of the cool aspects of having a blind one shot hole is the anticipation and doubt as one climbs to the reveal. Having a green with a Biarritz like swale, would only accentuate that doubt, enhancing the anticipation. Once revealed, depending on the ball's and pin positions, the golfer's next task was either eased or further tested. What's not to merit?
I would expect that most balls would end up in the swale. These are short iron shots, so nothing could run through the swale. Short shots, into the swale. Longer shots, spin back into the swale. That's probably (I'm guessing unless the Merion detectives come out to SF to get the real answer) why it was changed.
Joel, An excellent example of a quality GCA thread.
The title of the thread is a nice touch. Vandalism? Nice.
Your comment about the fads that have invaded the Cal and Meadow club's had wonderful subtext, illustrating that there are factions holding on to their priceless god given right to be ignorant, subjective and ordinary. What was that word you used? Oh yes,,,consistent. Well done!
This is a continuation of the "GCA superiority" concept introduced in a post above. You in another thread said about the work at Olympic "Cal Club 10 and 8"...I assume you've played both courses since the redo's, or is the match play score the result of looking at pictures, or even better, relying on what other people (who haven't even played the course(s)) write on this board?
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I also the tree work that had been done as of 2005/2006.
Since then, it appears that Christmas trees have started plugging-up the place.
Not at all. 16 has been cleared out more, as has the trees to the right of 9.
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Adam,
As you know, Tour Pros don't like doubt. Plus, the groans, ooohs, ahs and whatever would probably tell them just where there ball ended up.
Jeff -- Are there examples of uphill blind biarritz greens in this length range that have worked?
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Adam,
As you know, Tour Pros don't like doubt. Plus, the groans, ooohs, ahs and whatever would probably tell them just where there ball ended up.
Jeff -- Are there examples of uphill blind biarritz greens in this length range that have worked?
A completely different landscape - the 5th at Fishers is an uphill Biarritz. Only the back swale is green however, the front is fairway as is the swale.
Does the 8th at Olympic now have a false front? It is hard to see.
I like the look from the tee shot picture of the new 8th. The details around the green are hard to see. I am not too big on the cart path(s) and new pine tree pictures.
As The Olympic Club is an Athletic Club first, it seems that hosting US Opens fits in with their charter. Why are we demonizing the Architect and Super when there is the seven member Greens Committee? Isn't the Greens Committee responsible for presenting the best course for Championships? Isn't there a long history of changes to the course for Championships? I assume these changes were done in consultation with the USGA, so using the word "vandalism" seems out of context. If The Olympic Club runs anything like The New York Athletic Club (and it does), employees and contractors would be given very little wiggle room for execution of pre-approved plans, so why are they being targeted?
From The Olympic Club's Bylaws:
The Green Committee shall consist of seven (7) members, three (3) of whom
are current members of the Golf Committee. The President shall appoint one
(1) new Golf Committee member annually for a term of three (3) years, to
serve concurrently with the member's term on the Golf Committee. The
President shall also appoint annually one (1) Non-Golf Committee member
holding a golf privilege for a term of four (4) years. Vacancies shall be filled
in the same manner as provided for above.
Under jurisdiction of the Board, the Committee shall monitor the care,
maintenance and condition of the golf courses, related facilities and grounds.
Any changes that will alter the character, nature or playability of the golf
courses must be approved by the Board. The Committee shall be responsible
for making recommendations for capital improvements, repairs, annual
budgets and plans for maintenance, capital improvements, expenditures for the
golf courses, related facilities and grounds. It shall also monitor to completion
all Board approved projects as required by the Bylaws.
The Mucci Dictator model is NOT going to work at a large club so let's not go there. If the changes are that bad, how can the Olympic members work with the existing system to make changes?
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Kevin, Yes, I'm busted. Have not played the redo's. However, there are special individuals, whose opinions I can take to the bank. Gib, Joel and Ran Morrissett being among the best.
Jeff, Are you actually basing the quality of the alterations on play by the tour pros once a decade?
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Wow. There is a lot of piling on, and a lot of people on differing sides of the fence here.
I know 3 full OC members who quite like the changes.
They have all been members for 40 or so years.
They voted for the changes.
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All 18 greeens we're sodded w/ bent??
WOW - When I was there last year I saw the pratice green on the Cliffs course had been done to see how well they could keep the Poa out. At atht time it didn't look like they we're being too succesful and it appears they went ahead.
What's the green make up going to be by 2012?
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Mr. Stewart, Thank you for a very thorough presentation. I now understand the disappointment held by many. I've never played the course, and doubt I ever will. Given the chance, I'd rather have tackled the shorter version with rough hewn bunkers.
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I say vandalism
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All 18 greeens we're sodded w/ bent??
WOW - When I was there last year I saw the pratice green on the Cliffs course had been done to see how well they could keep the Poa out. At atht time it didn't look like they we're being too succesful and it appears they went ahead.
What's the green make up going to be by 2012?
There was no alternative but to do it. If the greens were poa, they would possibly/likely be in horrible shape by 2012 as a result of nematode infestation that has affected all the courses in the area. SFGC changed their greens as well a few years ago. Changing to bent was non-controversial...some raised the question of whether USGA spec greens were necessary.
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The walkways in the photo from 1920 are a wicked eyesore.
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Adam,
As you know, Tour Pros don't like doubt. Plus, the groans, ooohs, ahs and whatever would probably tell them just where there ball ended up.
I say who cares what the pros think, Jeff!
The U.S. Open comes around there, what, like every 15 yrs.??? That's 4.5 times in the lifespan of your average human being.
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I liked the old #8 because it was a very unusual par three (uphill, relatively short, blind landing area, difficulty in guessing the correct distance, the imposing clubhouse as background). Don't know why a large change was necessary. Vandalism is too strong a word, and I suspect that the majority of the members probably like the new look. As the current political situation suggests, for some, democracy can really suck.
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I liked the old #8 because it was a very unusual par three (uphill, relatively short, blind landing area, difficulty in guessing the correct distance, the imposing clubhouse as background). Don't know why a large change was necessary. Vandalism is too strong a word, and I suspect that the majority of the members probably like the new look. As the current political situation suggests, for some, democracy can really suck.
I REALLY liked the old #8, because I only played it once in my life and hit 8 iron to about 6 feet. ;D
Do NOT ask about the putt. :-X
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I REALLY liked the old #8, because I only played it once in my life and hit 8 iron to about 6 feet. ;D
Do NOT ask about the putt. :-X
Looky what I found ...
(http://cdn.homes.com/cgi-bin/readimage_v2/171896780)
(http://cdn.homes.com/cgi-bin/readimage_v2/171896781)
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I know 3 full OC members who quite like the changes.
They have all been members for 40 or so years.
They voted for the changes.
There was no vote so you have your facts wrong. There was a meeting late last year and members could speak on the situation but thats it.
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I know 3 full OC members who quite like the changes.
They have all been members for 40 or so years.
They voted for the changes.
There was no vote so you have your facts wrong. There was a meeting late last year and members could speak on the situation but thats it.
I guess I do have my facts wrong. I believe that at least two of them did speak on the changes, however.
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I REALLY liked the old #8, because I only played it once in my life and hit 8 iron to about 6 feet. ;D
Do NOT ask about the putt. :-X
Looky what I found ...
(http://cdn.homes.com/cgi-bin/readimage_v2/171896780)
(http://cdn.homes.com/cgi-bin/readimage_v2/171896781)
Sometimes 8' will be remembered as 6' ;)
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The walkways in the photo from 1920 are a wicked eyesore.
??? I don't see any walkways there am I missing something?
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There was a meeting late last year and members could speak on the situation but thats it.
Joel,
Did you attend the meeting? What happened at the meeting?
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Yes I attended as well as Kevin and Gib. I would estimate maybe 200 members attended.
The purpose was to get member reaction and input on two items.
1) Rebuilding all the greens to bent.
2) Changing #7 and #8.
It was 100% agreement that the greens needed to be fixed. There was some objection to building the greens USGA spec since they are already in a sand base and the course has never had a drainage problem but the super insisted and Bill Love whose knowledge is quite limited also wanted USGA spec.
There was a lot of discussion on changing #7 and #8. One member brought Pepers book of the greatest 500 holes in golf and held it up saying why change #7. Another member who has won the club champion numerous times and played in the Amateur a few years ago at Olympic said he heard a lot of players complaining about the 7th green. I felt that had some influence.
Another older member asked for another opinion from another architect. I 2nd that and was joined by two other members. It was denied by the green committee chairman, saying Bill Love was the architect.
Although they said they would listen to members comments very carefully, they later passed the superintendents suggestions 100%. The fix was in.
They did find the members objected to the collars around the bunkers which the super thought looked great. He has since eliminated those collars.
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Joel,
I may have mentioned to you that Lake was among the first group of great courses I played (back around '79 or '80) and remains a favorite (at least as of 5-6 years ago, when I played it last). Given all the changes, some positive such as the tree removal which you probably supported, do you believe that the playing characterisitcs of the course have been sacrificed? Are most of the members satisfied with the changes and the direction of the club? Has there been an abnormal number of resignations and the waiting list whittled down? Are you still a member?
I just don't understand how an employee of the club seems to have amassed the sort of power you describe unless he is being responsive to the power centers of the membership. My impression of Olympic is that it has a long history of being highly active, open, and relatively democratic. That one individual can be allowed to cause the harm you suggest just doesn't make sense. Maybe things will swing back eventually.
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Joel, interesting presentation and discussion, thanks.
It's been a while since I played the Lake Course, but I always liked #7 and #8 for the perhaps simple-minded reason that they offered a welcome break from the long progression of difficult par 4s--4.5.6, and 9, 10, 11, 12. Most of us would have mid-irons or more in our hands to approach all but 12--on good driving days. I looked forward to the prospect of two quick short holes before getting back to business. Of course, the short holes could do some damage to those expecting pushovers--all the better and more interesting.
With the new 8th at 200yds, plus the long walk from 7 green to 8 tee, its seems that aspect of the routing is lost.
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ET -
My guess is the new 8th hole will play between 150-180 yards from the white & blue tees 98% of the time.
The 7th hole is only 15-20 yards longer than it used to be.
DT
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Joel,
Just to make sure you're citing the correct person......by "superintendent" do you mean the superintendent of the Lake Course or the Director of Golf Course Maintenance? For those who may not know, Olympic has what we would all call a superintendent plus assistants for each of Lake and Ocean courses, as well as a Director of GCM who oversees them and everything greens & grounds maintenance related.
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ET -
My guess is the new 8th hole will play between 150-180 yards from the white & blue tees 98% of the time.
The 7th hole is only 15-20 yards longer than it used to be.
DT
David -
the card has the blue tees as 169. When I played it last week, it was 175. Plus it's uphill. That's a 4I for me. It would be great if it were 15-20 yards less, which would provide a distance in between the shorter #15 and the longer #3 and #13.
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Wayne -
How much of the flagstick can you see from the blue tee? Can you see where your shot has landed on the green? Is there still some element of blindness to the hole?
DT
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Wayne -
How much of the flagstick can you see from the blue tee? Can you see where your shot has landed on the green? Is there still some element of blindness to the hole?
DT
David -
I recall that the entire flagstick was visible in the location we played that day (back and right) and the distance to the pin was nearly 180 (which is more like a 3I uphill for me). The only location that provides a blind aspect would be back-left, where there's more room than one sees from the tee.
I posted on one of the other threads that I wish we played the hole slightly shorter, as well as having the front of the green raised up just a hair to provide some of that blindness.
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Where does one begin when so much misinformation is asserted?
A full presentation of the proposed changes was made to the membership at a meeting to which all were invited.
The Green Committee which includes some members who have played the courses at Olympic for more than fifty years spent nearly a full year in conversation with the architect and the Green staff. They interviewed countless members, including Mr Stewart, and they consulted hundreds of historical photographs. The final decision, by the Board of Directors, was made after reviewing the recommendations of the Green Committee and input from the membership.
Some points need to be made:
The decision to modify the eighth hole at this time (recommendations for such a modification have been made by numerous architects and critics over the last forty years) was made because the replacement of all greens made the construction convenient. The design was not influenced in consideration of the upcoming US Open, other than a concern that the Bent grass conversion needed to take place well in advance of that event.
The re-design of the eighth hole was not influenced by changes proposed for the seventh, but rather the changes to the eighth once agreed to made it possible to consider possible changes to the seventh green and the ninth tee.
The change of the seventh green to a two tier layout from the tight three tier configuration was actually restorative! The third tier had been added not that many years ago, and as Mr Stewart acknowledges, the three tier arrangement was frequently criticized by players not least distinguished of which was multi-time champion Randy Haag.
While it is true that length has been added to several of the course's par threes over the last few years, the tee complexes have been designed to allow significant variation in tee position. Thus, from day to day a hole's length might change by as much as thirty yards, and in a multi day tournament such as the Club Championship one might find these holes calling for very different club selections.
It can actually be argued that Willie Watson and early Green Keeper Sam Whiting would have used the routing now built if they could have moved dirt as effortlessly as modern equipment allows.
Finally, for Mr Stewart to demean the ability and qualifications of respected industry professionals in an off handed manner is unconscionable. Mr Love consistently displayed respect for the integrity of the Lake golf course spending countless hours with our Club historian, Pat Finlen has been honored by his peers and by the California Golf Writers for his contributions to agronomy, and Frontier has done remarkable work throughout the United States in restoring classic golf courses. In particular, they were chosen for this project because of their extensive experience and expertise in GPS measurement and restoration of contours (something absolutely vital in our effort to maintain slope integrity when reconstructing our greens).
As President of the Donald Ross Society, I might be expected to hold fast for tradition and turn a cold eye on renovation as opposed to restoration, but my primary focus is on design philosophy and strategic intent as opposed to blind adherence to old measurements. The old that is strong may not whither, but not all that is old should be worshipped.
I hope that all of you, including Mr Stewart, have a chance to play these holes in the context of a full round and suggest that until you have done so, you might reserve judgement.
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"off handed" is not an adjective I would use to describe Joel Stewart.
Beyond that I don't know enough to comment.
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I played the Lake probably a year ago... and after all of the long difficult holes, and the wicked 3 tier green on the short ("easy" I thought) par 4 7th, the 8th hole was a nice little break. A short par 3 that allowed you to catch your breath before you back at another stretch of long demanding holes.
I know several members who are very involved in the work, and (of course) they are very happy with the changes.
Having the opportunity to play Pebble on a regular basis, I have seen how the monster that is the USGA has come in and made changes to something that wasn't broken. Lengthening a course is not that big of deal, but when you start changing/ moving bunkers, that b.s.
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To be absolutely clear:
The USGA does not have a seat on the Olympic Green Committee nor on the Board of Directors!
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It can actually be argued that Willie Watson and early Green Keeper Sam Whiting would have used the routing now built if they could have moved dirt as effortlessly as modern equipment allows.
What would be that argument?
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Wayne W. -
I have faulted the Lake Course in the past for having 3 of the 4 par-3's being totally blind shots. On that basis, I have no problem with #8 ceasing to be a blind shot.
DT
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Where does one begin when so much misinformation is asserted?
What is the misinformation? From what you said, sounds more like interpretation.
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Where does one begin when so much misinformation is asserted?
What is the misinformation? From what you said, sounds more like interpretation.
Joel said:
Now the hole is gone, bulldozed by a superintendent and his personal friend, a golf architect, seeking more length for one week in June 2012 when the club hosts its 5th U.S. Open.
Gerry said:
A full presentation of the proposed changes was made to the membership at a meeting to which all were invited. The Green Committee which includes some members who have played the courses at Olympic for more than fifty years spent nearly a full year in conversation with the architect and the Green staff. They interviewed countless members, including Mr Stewart, and they consulted hundreds of historical photographs. The final decision, by the Board of Directors, was made after reviewing the recommendations of the Green Committee and input from the membership.
Jim,
I have never even played Olympic, only took a tour of the golf course one day. However, I know the club pretty well via its relationship with the NY Athletic Club. To single out the Super and Architect and use the suggestive word of "vandalism", well Gerry was being generous by saying "misinformation".
The same sort of stuff occurred on Merion threads back in the day when they Fazio and the contractor did the bunker work (land swap threads have replaced bunker work threads). If Joel wants to call the work bad, that is what GCA.com is for. However, to present it as a "fix" by two individuals at a huge democratic club like Olympic is not what GCA.com should be used for.
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If Joel wants to call the work bad, that is what GCA.com is for. However, to present it as a "fix" by two individuals at a huge democratic club like Olympic is not what GCA.com should be used for.
I agree whole-heartedly with this statement. Luckily, due to the caliber of individuals that make up this site's discussion group, I think Mr. Stewart's excellent research and description of the historical changes to the 8th is being overshadowed by those who care greatly about integrity exposing his unfortunate desire to assert personal attacks on certain individuals in an inappropriate forum.
Sad, too, because I largely agree with Mr. Stewart as I have said above. I do enjoy the look and description of the old 8th far more than the current. But as a superintendent who personally knows the character and integrity of the Director of GCM at Olympic, his placing of the blame on Mr Finlen turns me off to both his opnions and his post.
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What is the misinformation? From what you said, sounds more like interpretation.
The chain of events in this paragraph is not correct:
Today’s alteration of the Lake’s 8th really began in 2008, with the 7th green. The course superintendent convinced club officials to extend the 7th and raze the historic three tier green (described as one of the top 500 holes in the world) in preparation for the 2012 US Open. One move begat another, and forced changes to the 8th.
This is how it appears that Joel sees it:
1. Superintendent wants to extend 7th hole by 18 yds.
2. Since we are moving the 7th green, let's change it to a two-tier green because the superintendent dislikes the "historic" (KR - early 70's...that's 1970's) three-tier green. Or perhaps the superintendent is incapable of building a three-tier green under USGA specs (Joel has previously made this statement).
3. Since #1 and #2 aren't possible because there is the 8th hole in the way, we are now forced to move the 8th hole.
I've used similar logic when justifying a new set of clubs to my wife ("The grip on this driver is a bit worn, so I need to get rid of it and buy another one, and since I'm changing the driver I need to get a new putter because I'll be putting for birdie more often, and I'll need new irons because their grips won't match the grip on my new driver") but the notion that changes to #7 begot the new #8 doesn't reflect reality.
While we're at it, we might as well link Ron Whitten in to this decision/conspiracy...he disliked the "historic" green on 7 also:
Worst of the Best (http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/worstholes?currentPage=2)
Maybe the Philly detectives can check United flight records to see if RW was in San Francisco early last year. :)
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Kevin Reilly,
Well, Joel and Gib are on the record unequivocally on the changes. Care to provide your impressions? Is Olympic Lake a better course today than it was when it held the US Open last? With a long history of changes, do the most current take away from the course?
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Lou, I gave my opinions on another thread following my round on the re-opened course. To summarize: I like the change to #7, but the hole would benefit from some challenge on the drive, as the horrible mounds were removed from the right side but the trees that replaced them are not a concern off the tee now. The cartpath transition from 7 to 8 is "a pity".
#8 is now at least half a stroke harder than it was previously. It averaged 3.13 strokes in the '07 Amateur, and I would say the hole is now more difficult than #13 which averaged 3.53 strokes. The prevailing wind into your face has a big effect on the shot - it felt more exposed to the wind than before. The green is not blind but it is still an uphill hole. I played from the blue tee at 169.
The horrific green at #15 has been eliminated - it now is more like its old version, though the fronting bunker is not as imposing as in the old days.
Comments about the course right now need a small * because the greens are very slow as the bent is still developing. Green contours are hard to evaluate at these speeds, though you can see in my pictures of #7 that there is movement in each of the two tiers.
I am not a fan of the tee boxes on #5 and #12...I think it is overkill in terms of size/numbers. If back-back tees are needed, they should be done in a subtle manner. I agree with Gib's comments about needed an ambiance-enhancer (my words) as you walk to the back tees on #2, 5 and 12.
Here are some pictures I took of 7 and 8...the first picture is taken from the 4th tee.
Picasa pictures of 7 and 8 (http://picasaweb.google.com/gobeyrz/Lake7And8?authkey=Gv1sRgCLPum6714ZicGw#slideshow/5343681680271560018)
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Mike,
In my view, whether the decisions were made by the club, Bill Love, Pat Finlen or Zippy the Pinhead is irrelevant. My comments above are confined to the finished product and as a member I stand by my criticisms.
My belief is that the long green-to-tee walk, ugly cartpath and proportionality of the entire arrangement is never going to look right - even with time. Observers can make their own determinations, but that is mine.
The reason I jumped back into this thread is to express my astonishment at how that anybody who has been around Olympic for any length of time can possibly characterize the structure of the club as "democratic."
There is now - and has always been - a small group of men who maintain a stranglehold over the club, continually recycling themselves (and coterie of like-minded satellites within their orbit) between the GC and the Board.
Joel has every damned right to express his opinion because he is a member and did an enormous amount of work and research before the first thimble of dirt was moved.
Part of that research was demonstrating where many of the "lost fairway bunkers" were located - information largely ignored. I depart from Joel insofar as assigning blame (or credit) solely to Bill Love and Pat Finlen. This was a collaborative effort including - and especially - a group we outsiders derisively refer to as "the owners."
The truth is that Olympic's architecture does not possess a blue-blooded pedigree like Little Lord Fauntleroy and his empty clubhouse on the other side of Lake Merced.
It is my opinion that the key reason the golf course is held in such high regard is the reverse-camber fairways and clever routing that tumbles down the leeward side of the hill.
The putting surfaces have been changed so many times that I do not think we have the ability to bring it back to a specific point in time (like Karl Olson did at NGLA). I am not sure if we even want to - although I would be in favor of restoring that wonderful swale in the 8th green. There are certainly treasures of information hidden in the club archives, but our historian believes it his birthright to stand guard at the portals and make certain plebians (like me) never gain full access.
In the interest of disclosure, I had a discussion with Bill Love and came away with the impression that he sees the incredible potential of the Lake Course (and Ocean), but has convinced himself he needs to walk on eggshells.
We needed to take a close look at the golf course as a whole and bring in somebody like Mike DeVries or Neal Meagher (because he would obsess over every detail) and maximize what we have.
The Lake Course is not a sacrosanct religious shrine like Shinnecock Hills or Muirfield. If we are going to start to push dirt around, it would be best to preserve the best of the golf course, restore what has been lost (where it makes sense) and then move forward with changes towards improvement.
We pulled up the horse in mid-leap and like most acts of tepidity, the result is failure. Does that make it “vandalism?” No, because vandalism is a deliberate act with intent to deface or destroy.
This is more an act of institutionalized cowardice and visionless leadership. If anyone is to be charged with a crime, it is those who limited what was possible by their preconceived notions about what was “doable.”
Piecemeal construction rarely works in any art form.
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I’ll keep this short because the pictures speak for themselves.
It does get interesting with Gerry making comments since he is the only member here with any intimate knowledge of the situation. Gerry Stratford is a great guy and respected member. He’s spewing the company line and trying to put a good face on an ugly situation that was predicted and could have been avoided. Gerry tried to be the nice guy, voice of reason and was the only person on the green committee who asked questions. He was also the only person that didn’t rubber stamp everything that Finlen asked. Sadly his nice guy approach failed.
I will also dispute Gerry’s claim to give it time as it will improve. The look and how it lays on the ground within this classic site is unmistakably bad. The only thing time will heal is people tend to forget.
I have a much different feeling about “unconscionable” then Gerry and all you have to do is look at the pictures. It’s easy to attack me for calling out the process and the guilty individuals but its far less serious then desecrating a historic golf course with incompetent individuals. If you want to look at unconscionable, then look at Steve Meeker, the former board member then green chairman and now chairman of the 2012 Open who is one of the recycled individuals Gib mentions and is the single most responsible member to allow this travesty to occur. He like the rest of the committee could not say NO.
As I said on another thread, Bill Love needs a paycheck and does exactly what he is told. Calling Bill Love a respected industry professional? What has Bill Love done that is respected? Bill Love is a very nice person but is a landscape architect who believes that translates into golf course architecture. It has always been my argument that Mr. Love was not qualified to work at Olympic based on the following reasons;
1. He has never worked on any top 100 classic courses performing restorations.
2. He is not being retained by any other classic top 100 caliber clubs.
3. His biography on the ASGCA web site (he doesn’t have his own web site) lists 2 courses in which he has been involved in renovations, not restorations.
4. In over 20 years, with Ault & Clark or on his own he has never designed any course receiving national acclaim, such as a top 100 status.
5. His small work performed on the 4th hole on the Cliffs course, 8th on Lake and work on the Ocean course is terrible.
As I have stated here previously, Mr. Love has a 20 year relationship with Pat Finlen (they worked together on a course in Kansas City) and was given the job over far more qualified and knowledgeable restoration architects. It was just dirty politics and I don’t consider that an ingredient of a “respected industry professional”. If the previous green chairman (Mr. Meeker) stayed with his original choice, Olympic would have been restored to one of the great golf courses in the world.
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4. In over 20 years, with Ault & Clark or on his own he has never designed any course receiving national acclaim, such as a top 100 status.
In one of these Olympic threads, in an attempt to be funny I said that the new cartpaths looked like Bill Love's interpretation of an Ault-Clark design, and could've used any number of names that IMHO don't do a great job with cartpath placement. ..... I had no idea Bill Love worked at Ault-Clark.
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Joel has every damned right to express his opinion because he is a member and did an enormous amount of work and research before the first thimble of dirt was moved.
Gib,
I understand and agree with 95+% of your post. The cronies run the NYAC, Olympic and many clubs. However in the words of Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, "Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion, but NOT their own facts." Finally, 3-4 days later Joel acknowledges the Green Committee was involved. ::)
We had real vandalism 4-5 years ago at Hidden Creek when vandals put Roundup or similar on 8 greens on the back in the middle of the night and the greens were closed for months. During the start-up of a club, it could have been very bad. They got through it.
Portraying the Super and Architect in this way on GCA was inappropriate at best.
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(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a250/Sales_Guru/P1010155.jpg)
Short, but not easy. For some reason I'm not looking forward to playing the new one.
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I guess my question would be...what was so offensive, wrong, or un-US Open like with the previous version of #8 that it needed changing?
Thats the part that I'm not getting at the moment.
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There I was, my droogies, finally having a little bit of the old "in out"* with the Lake Course, when I arrived at the 7th tee this very morning I tell you. There is sometimes an enormous difference between seeing and playing, so I wanted to give it a chance and not continue to recite my didactic spew without actually "having a go."
Okay, I have officially advanced my pellet along the new corridors and am seated here trying hard not to air our dirty laundry in public. We at Olympic are a family and Joel has, at times, been characterized as an unreasonable crank and even an assh*le. In the interest of full disclosure, Joel is my friend and while I do not always agree with his forceful opinions (like I am one to talk) there has never been a single moment when - even in disagreement - that I could not fully understand his perspective.
OHMYGAWD IN HEAVEN IS HE RIGHT THIS TIME.
Given the inescapable fact that I am also an opinionated sot, there is no reason to believe our egos would somehow share the same analysis of the new work. Frankly, although we talk on the phone frequently, we have not reviewed a new golf course together more than three times.
So I went into this morning with open eyes and open heart. I WANT the new work to be wonderful (like Cal Club). Those private e-mails I've received pointing out my nature as a congenital contrarian - and opining that perhaps I relish the opportunity to spew a series of criticisms and throw eggs because I was not involved in the process are rendered bullshit.
For those of you who fill my e-mail with invective, let me point out that to join in a chorus criticism is tantamount to cheering the sprout of a nasty wart on the nose your wife. The natural reaction is to defend the home port and somehow soft-pedal excuses for the final product.
There is no possible excuse for his madness. It plays just as I thought - a series of disparate elements (some good and some not) enjoined as one would expect on a cart-ball track.
MY WIFE HAS A DAMNED HERPES WART ON HER NOSE!
First off, the right side of the 7th fairway is an arbitrary rough line, punctuated by a couple of trees placed in a spot that - even after they have grown - will only affect the play of those who have vomited a duck-slice so far right that players will be more likely to find Bambi than the ball.
The putting surface is okay. Nothing special - in similar fashion to what we had before in the early 70's - but there we have the nauseating result of whiny cowardice. Now, I am going to admit that the 8th hole came out very well. I like it. Unfortunately, just not in context of anything else that comes before it or going forward.
It was a 160 YARD UPHILL WALK FROM THE PIN ON #7 TO THE BLUE TEE ON #8.
Yes, taken as individual elements, everything looks marginally acceptable given the complete lack of vision displayed by the monkeys issued a gun and a badge. However, only a cartball knucklehead would have approved something this completely obtuse at a club that not only encourages walkers, but takes pride about crowing about their "athletic club roots."
I'd like to amend my snotosity about playing the white tees on #8. I pledge to simply walk off the 7th green directly to the 9th tee, skip this complete failure and try to forget my club had an affair with a interloping harlot.
Let us never speak of it again.
*Clockwork Orange reference to those uninitiated to the 2nd best movie ever made.
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Gib -
To the best of my knowledge, the changes that were made to the 7th & 8th holes on the Lake Course course this past winter had been proposed and contemplated for at least 10 or 15 years. Am I correct in saying that?
DT
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Somehow your metaphors make the changes sound fairly appealing. ;D
There I was, my droogies, finally having a little bit of the old "in out"* with the Lake Course, when I arrived at the 7th tee this very morning I tell you. There is sometimes an enormous difference between seeing and playing, so I wanted to give it a chance and not continue to recite my didactic spew without actually "having a go."
Okay, I have officially advanced my pellet along the new corridors and am seated here trying hard not to air our dirty laundry in public. We at Olympic are a family and Joel has, at times, been characterized as an unreasonable crank and even an assh*le. In the interest of full disclosure, Joel is my friend and while I do not always agree with his forceful opinions (like I am one to talk) there has never been a single moment when - even in disagreement - that I could not fully understand his perspective.
OHMYGAWD IN HEAVEN IS HE RIGHT THIS TIME.
Given the inescapable fact that I am also an opinionated sot, there is no reason to believe our egos would somehow share the same analysis of the new work. Frankly, although we talk on the phone frequently, we have not reviewed a new golf course together more than three times.
So I went into this morning with open eyes and open heart. I WANT the new work to be wonderful (like Cal Club). Those private e-mails I've received pointing out my nature as a congenital contrarian - and opining that perhaps I my secret desire is to relish the opportunity to spew a series of criticisms and throw eggs because I was not involved in the process are rendered bullshit.
For those of you who fill my e-mail with invective, let me point out that to join in a chorus criticism is tantamount to cheering the sprout of a nasty wart on the nose your wife. The natural reaction is to defend the home port and somehow soft-pedal excuses for the final product.
There is no possible excuse for his madness. It plays just as I thought - a series of disparate elements (some good and some not) enjoined as one would expect on a cart-ball track.
MY WIFE HAS A DAMNED HERPES WART ON HER NOSE!
First off, the right side of the 7th fairway is an arbitrary rough line, punctuated by a couple of trees placed in a spot that - even after they have grown - will only affect the play of those who have vomited a duck-slice so far right that players will be more likely to find Bambi than the ball.
The putting surface is okay. Nothing special - in similar fashion to what we had before in the early 70's - but there we have the nauseating result of whiny cowardice. Now, I am going to admit that the 8th hole came out very well. I like it. Unfortunately, just not in context of anything else that comes before it or going forward.
It was a 160 YARD UPHILL WALK FROM THE PIN ON #7 TO THE BLUE TEE ON #8.
Yes, taken as individual elements, everything looks marginally acceptable given the complete lack of vision displayed by the monkeys issued a gun and a badge. However, only a cartball knucklehead would have approved something this completely obtuse at a club that not only encourages walkers, but takes pride about crowing about their "athletic club roots."
I'd like to amend my snotosity about playing the white tees on #8. I pledge to simply walk off the 7th green directly to the 9th tee, skip this complete failure and try to forget my club had an affair with a interloping harlot.
Let us never speak of it again.
*Clockwork Orange reference to those uninitiated to the 2nd best movie ever made.
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Thought I'd put in my two cents here as I played the Lake today for the first time since the recent changes.
First, the course overall looks great. The greens aren't up to full speed yet but look great as do the green surrounds.
The new tees over the past 3 years - on 2, 3, 5, 6 and 12 - along with the additional length on 7 and 8 make a big difference. Basically 8 of the first 12 holes are par-4's of 440ish or longer, and two of those other four holes are 200+ yard par-3's. Olympic has always been hard for every reason except length. Well, now it has length, too.
I really liked the new holes. On #7 it's quite tough to tell that the green has been moved. If nobody told me, I would have thought they just redesigned the green in the same place. The new green fits in better with the rest of the course - it's pretty similar to #11 in a lot of ways. It's probably a slightly easier green that the old one because the individual tiers are larger, although there's still plenty of slope to make things tough. The right rough is a bit open but I didn't see that as a problem. If you're there you have a bad view of the green and less control over your wedge shot anyway; it's not a severe penalty but certainly isn't desirable.
I was fully prepared to not like the 8th, but I thought it was excellent. It's a better looking hole than the old one. I was a defender of the old 8th hole as unique and special, particularly for its setting - I mean, the hole itself was just a 140 yard shot over a bunker, at least in its recent form - but the setting on the new 8th is just as good and I think it's a better hole overall. There's always still the option to play it as a 140 yard uphill shot from the front tee, but also the option to play it at 215 and make it a full-length, challenging hole. I can see why some people preferred the old hole, but I think the only significant knock on the new hole, if you were a fan of the old one, is that it's not the old one. As a stand-alone par-3, it's really good. I can't think of a change I would want to make to the current hole, although I didn't get to study the green in detail as there was a group behind us.
Admittedly it's not ideal to finish #7 and walk 100-something yards to the 8th tee, and the cartpath isn't great. I'm not ignoring them, but they just seem like secondary things to me compared to the quality of the hole itself, which I think is excellent.
There was never anything "wrong" with #7 or #8, and maybe just the minor issue of #7 being the only hole on the course with a three-tiered green. Neither hole needed to be changed. But are they both a little better now than they were a year ago? I say yes.
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Bump ...
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Matt,
Thank you so much for scraping off the scabs, rubbing salt in the wounds of those whose tastes ascend beyond the difference between Charles Blair and Ronald Macdonald.
Your aesthetically vacant evaluation of the ham-handed graffiti on our beloved shrine comes off as the same sort of apologist, deceitful claptrap that a cartball muffinhead would use to justify Fazio rerouting a golf course so that walkers need a Sherpa, K-rations and a compass to find the next tee.
The entire arrangement is a pile of elephant diarrhea - as if the appropriate removal of trees somehow ameliorates the complete dismantling of the flow and religious Feng Shui of the golf course. We have prostituted ourselves at the altar of lesser intellects who worship at the shrine of fad and fashion.
Once you defecate in your bedroom sink, the water in your nighttime glass never looks quite as pure. You cannot "unhear" blasphemy any easier than you can "unsee" a child being abused. The golf course now has 17 holes and a black sheep to be ignored.
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Is there a connection between the previous superintendent and Wolf Creek?
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Will someone else who has played the new Olympic make similar approving statements about it, like Matt Cohn did?
Anything to get more posts from Gib like his last one.
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Matt,
Thank you so much for scraping off the scabs, rubbing salt in the wounds of those whose tastes ascend beyond knowing the difference between Charles Blair and Ronald Macdonald.
Your aesthetically vacant evaluation of the ham-handed graffiti on our beloved shrine comes off as the same sort of apologist, deceitful claptrap that a cartball muffinhead would use to justify Fazio rerouting a golf course so that walkers need a Sherpa, K-rations and a compass to find the next tee.
The entire arrangement is a pile of elephant diarrhea - as if the appropriate removal of trees somehow ameliorates the complete dismantling of the flow and religious Feng Shui of the golf course. We have prostituted ourselves at the altar of lesser intellects who worship at the shrine of fad and fashion.
Once you defecate in your bedroom sink, the water in your nighttime glass never looks quite as pure. You cannot "unhear" blasphemy any easier than you can "unsee" a child being abused. The golf course now has 17 holes and a black sheep to be ignored.
I stand in awe of this withering missive.
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I would like to commend Joel on the history layed out here as well as the passion he has for the Lake course. David i agree with your thoughts as well. As always Gib nailed a not discussed point of the cart paths and walk. I have played the Lake a number of times post opening. I really like the 8th,15th and 18th work. I think with time the 8th will grow in stature as the photo spot and favorite of players. I said in the initial post how much I liked it and had mixed feelings on the 7th green complex. I said then it is a very good hole green complex but is replacing one of the best in the game for a driveable par 4. Gib is on point about the history of the green complexes. And the routing combined with the strong par 4's with reverse cantor fairways is what makes the course special in the eyes of golf. Nothiwithstanding that comment i think for the most part a very good job was done by one and all associated on the greens as well as the whole project.
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Thanks Tiger - Now we need Gib to come back over the top with some commentary that includes a reference to some sort of animal fesces - this is a great thread - love the passion!
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How long was the prior walk from 7 green to 8 tee?
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I have only played the Lakeside course once, and it was not long ago, but before the recent work. I can't comment on the new holes since I haven't seen them, but the mere idea of inserting a 100-150 yard walk from 7th green to 8th tee is blasphemous. That is such a classic walk, classic routing with tees close to previous greens, that creating such a long walk is a bad thing. I can understand Gib's wondrous rants just from that perspective. If I were a member I'd be pissed.
It's like a breath of fresh air having Gib back on this board. Thanks for sharing. ;D
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How long was the prior walk from 7 green to 8 tee?
20-30 yards. And a lovely hole with the clubhouse right behind the elevated green.
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Thanks Bill. I've played the course 2 times, but couldn't remember that particular walk.
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Thanks Bill. I've played the course 2 times, but couldn't remember that particular walk.
it wouldn't stand out in your memory, except maybe for the view of the clubhouse, because it used to be quite similar to every other green-to-tee walk on the course.
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Matt,
Thank you so much for scraping off the scabs, rubbing salt in the wounds of those whose tastes ascend beyond the difference between Charles Blair and Ronald Macdonald.
Your aesthetically vacant evaluation of the ham-handed graffiti on our beloved shrine comes off as the same sort of apologist, deceitful claptrap that a cartball muffinhead would use to justify Fazio rerouting a golf course so that walkers need a Sherpa, K-rations and a compass to find the next tee.
The entire arrangement is a pile of elephant diarrhea - as if the appropriate removal of trees somehow ameliorates the complete dismantling of the flow and religious Feng Shui of the golf course. We have prostituted ourselves at the altar of lesser intellects who worship at the shrine of fad and fashion.
Once you defecate in your bedroom sink, the water in your nighttime glass never looks quite as pure. You cannot "unhear" blasphemy any easier than you can "unsee" a child being abused. The golf course now has 17 holes and a black sheep to be ignored.
Post the Year nomination!
Gib,
If it's true that a small group runs OC by swapping themselves between committees and the Board then it is only because the rank and file allow it. If you disagree with their agenda then you and 150 like-minded members need to vote in a new slate and make things as you want them.
All my 2 cents with zero knowledge of anything to do with OC.
- Peter
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Old walk from 7 to 8 was probably 60 yards. Only other longish walk on course is from 11 to 12, which backtracks 80-100 yards to the normal tees (and about 150 to the new back tees that nobody really plays).
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/cohnhead72/Picture3.png)
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Will someone else who has played the new Olympic make similar approving statements about it, like Matt Cohn did?
Anything to get more posts from Gib like his last one.
Sure. I never played the old #8 and so I don't have any comparison point. But my experience sounds simliar to Mr. Cohn's. Based on what I had read here I was also prepared to not like the hole. I liked the hole when I played it, it's not the best hole on the course but I wouldn't call it a black sheep or elephant diarrhea either (although perhaps the elephant diarrhea comment was meant more about the logistics as opposed to the architecture of the hole). The cart path and walk from the 7th green is a shame but I thought it was by far the worst part about the current 7th & 8th holes.
Perhaps it's a social norm issue, just like I didn't think Forrest Gump was that good after waiting until 1,000 people had seen it before me and told me how great it was.
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Matt:
I assume that aerial predates the work? So it wasn't a super-short walk, though it wasn't as long as today's walk (and the cartpaths are less noticeable for sure).
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I have only played the Lakeside course once, and it was not long ago, but before the recent work. I can't comment on the new holes since I haven't seen them, but the mere idea of inserting a 100-150 yard walk from 7th green to 8th tee is blasphemous. That is such a classic walk, classic routing with tees close to previous greens, that creating such a long walk is a bad thing. I can understand Gib's wondrous rants just from that perspective. If I were a member I'd be pissed.
Agreed and that would be the major problem I would have with the hole. You could build Pine Valley #5 in place of the old #8 but if you put it at the end of a 160yd walk it completely disrupts the flow of the golf course. I would rather have a good hole that maintains the integrity of the routing rather than a potentially great hole that is out of place and out of the way.
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Matt:
I assume that aerial predates the work? So it wasn't a super-short walk, though it wasn't as long as today's walk (and the cartpaths are less noticeable for sure).
Right.
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Ian Larson. The connection is with Wolf Run in Reno.
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Having never played there, I really can't comment on the changes other than to say I LOVE the look of the pictures of old 8th. I can just imagine staring at the front bunker with an element of doubt in my mind about what will happen to my ball up on the green. But I'm sure the new 8th is a fine golf hole.
The reason for my post is that I don't think any person, committee, or board of directors should have the final say on changes to a golf course. I strongly believe that the final plan should be approved by a majority vote of the membership.
I am aware that the board and/or committee still weilds most of the power: they get to pick the architect and they have direct access to the architect throughout the planning process. But in my opinion, the knowledge that the plan will ultimately have to win membership approval alters the process in several significant ways.
At the outset, the planners have to create a spirit of openess. They have to be able to explain to any member who asks WHY the course needs to be changed and how the architect was selected. This can be very time consuming and frustrating for the club leaders, but in the end, it greatly reduces the possibility of hard feelings.
The final meeting before the vote becomes critical: this is when the planners have to FULLY make their case. It also becomes a meeting where the plan might fail; a point in time when all the hard work could go out the window.This is FAR different than a meeting where the final plan is simply presented to the membership and meaningful changes to the plan are not a real possibilty.
Opponents of the plan (and there will ALWAYS be opponents to any plan) are going to leave that meeting feeling frustrated; believing that it was just a dog and pony show for changes that the leaders want to make to the golf course. With a full membership vote, members like Mr. Stewart at least have the opportunity to rally enough votes to stop the plan. And the planners KNOW this from the outset, so they MUST proceed accordingly at every step in the process.
So I think Boards that hold on to the final say without giving members a vote are holding on to a power that they really should not want. They are asking for trouble. They are handing a potential "club" to plan opponents, and it is quite likely that this "club" will be used to create unrest and much bad feelings for years to come. I think all Boards should pass a by-law REQUIRING full member votes on all course changes. Because when it is all said and done, Mr. Stewart's arguments would lose much of their merits if the full membership had approved the changes, and the committee and/or Board would not be subject to such easy criticism.
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JAL,
It has been brought to my attention that there is a Golden Bear Cub in the studio audience! It is a good thing you did not get the commission or the new 8th hole would have required a towering cut with a 1-iron. How you guys manage to force a left-to-right shot even on dogleg-left holes is beyond my imagination.
I'm going to admit that taken as an individual expression dropped from a flying saucer completely out of context with the rest of the routing, #8 looks pretty good - aside from the cart path with more concrete than the Hollywood Freeway and a multi-tiered tee pushed up farther than Dolly Parton's tits.
And just as artificial looking.
In reality, the tee looks no worse than the stairstep mess on the 12th and the putting surface/green complex looks very good. But once again, certain things do not go together. Classic and nouveau flash do not juxtapose well - like Joe Paterno and Venus Williams in a lip-lock on the red carpet. It is just wrong.
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I don't want to respark anything, but I liked the eighth hole. I never played the old version. However, the new version is a good hole. The bunkers look good the green is interesting. From 220 or so yards it will be a bear. Interestingly enough, I didn't find it played that uphill. I played it the yardage and hit the correct club.
The walk from the seventh green is a slag, and the cartpath looks bad, but the new hole is not a bad one. In fact I liked all the par-3's about evenly. They are all good holes in their own right.
Out of curiosity, how much different was the seventh green prior to the work?
I really liked Olympic and it was cool to see the changes first hand. It is one of the most unique courses I have ever seen.
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Cool you got to play the Lake, Jordan.
I played it myself about a month ago. I hadn't played it in at least 3 years before that. For me, the great gains made in three-thinning and the incredible firming and drying out of the course that resulted therefrom outweighed any architectural misdeeds; that is, I liked it a lot more now than I did three years ago. However, I can understand the laments for 7 and 8 as they were... primarily because while I agree the current 8 is a strong golf hole, the old 8 wasn't bad and if anything was more unique; and regarding 7, they did a hell of a lot of work to gain SIX yards in distance (yep, was 288, is 294). I actually think on the whole the new green might be better.. two tiers instead of three - but I am unsure about that. In any case re the changes in the holes I just have to ask "why"? That is, was it really a net gain? Was it really worth it?
But those questions are answered FAR better by the members and others more up on the course than an infrequent visitor like me. In the end, what is there now is pretty damn great. I leave it to the members to show uproar. I'm just a happy guest who really digs the course as it is now.
TH
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Huckster,
(Warning: Slightly Off-Topic)
I am confused. Your plaintive cries of outrage and accusations of emasculation of (and by) your beloved Bayonet does not square with your opinion of Olympic Lake's elevated status due to massive tree removal.
There was nothing more likely to lop off your testicles than the "Old" Lake course - endless corridors of dripping wet trees and tight, muddy lies even when the ball somehow miraculously found the short grass.
I thought you liked pain and suffering at Bayonet - salvation though Calvinist masochism, triple bogeys and soaking wet polyester socks . . . . squish squish squish squish all the way down the fairway.
A double standard I do detect. ;)
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You read me wrong, oh great one.
The old Olympic Lake was tree-lined and wet. But lots of courses are like that - in fact lots near it (Cal Club as it was, Presidio, Harding, need I go on)? I just found it long and difficult and while it did possess ghosts in the feeling for sure, it was never gonna really be my cup of tea. You see, it was all of those things but not really all that unique outside of the ghosts.
The old Bayonet was all of those things (besides the ghosts) but then ADDED: foliage down to the ground, such that any ball past the tree line was lost or better off so; a few very weird and unique doglegs (11, 12) and the toughest staight hole one will ever play (#2); one of the weirdest and coolest tee shots on earth (#12, hit it in a box - bad if too short, too long, too left, too right - and this achieved with zero bunkers or water)... and a few other things that are difficult for me to explain. In short, it was long and difficult AND UNIQUE.
Thus I pine away for its demise; when uniqueness dies, it seems logical to me to miss it.
But I do prefer the new Lake. If anything it has BECOME unique - a parkland course that plays firm and fast, all the while with ghosts.
TH
ps - one other thing - for all it's claustrophobic tree-lined brutality, the old Bayonet rarely played WET. It had fantastic drainage... because it was sand-based. Still is, thank god.
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I've heard so many tell how wet Olympic can play in the past that I have to ask, what is the soil base there? Does it drain well?
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I played Olympic Lake on Sunday for the first time since it had been redone. I was skeptical about the changes to 7 and 8, but after playing the course, I have no problem with them. 8 was much better than I expected it to be. There is no doubt that there is a long walk from 7 to 8 and the cart paths take away from the look of the course, but I thought it was a good golf hole. Plus, 15 is a short par 3 so the course still offers a short par 3 hole. As for the changes to 7, I am not sure that they were needed, but I didn't have any problems with that hole either. Overall, I am not sure that the course is any better or worse (so maybe the changes shouldn't have been made), but I didn't have a problem with the changes like I thought I would. The new rough around the greens was very sticky and it was difficult to get the ball up and down from there.
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The vast majority of the property is on a sand dune, but the soil under the stand of turf used to get very mushy. I'm not Dave Wilbur, but it always seemed to me that because we had wall-to-wall shallow root poa that the Superintendent was faced with a choice of deep watering once every three days to encourage deeper root growth, or accept that the high spots on our rolling fairways were going to be brown.
It is difficult to assess how many of our members have evolved enough to grasp the beauty of brown, but for years - even on dewy mornings - the irrigation was going full blast.
I do not think we are going to be able to keep out the poa for long with the amount of play and both courses located hard by the sea, but what we have now plays fairly firm and fast. Whether it is sustainable is another question - and one beyond my knowledge base.
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The new rough around the greens was very sticky and it was difficult to get the ball up and down from there.
I'll agree with that...I muffed a few chip shots and I can only blame so much on my lousy short game.
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David Stamm -
Aside from the soil base, some of the other reasons the Lake Course has had a "soft & wet" reputation are 1) the heavy coastal fog in the summer, 2) the property sloping to the east (which limits the amount of direct afternoon sunshine the property does get when the sun is shining) and 3) the here-to-fore heavily tree-lined fairways.
Over the past 4-6 years, the new greenskeeping regime has laid a lot of sand on the fairways and the trees have been removed and/or thinned substantially. Those actions have made a big difference. In my opinion, there are still plenty of trees that could and should be removed.
DT
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Vandalism it is !
Having just played the course for the first time, the new 8th hole sticks out in ways few holes can, or, ever will. The actual hole (Teeing ground and Green) is neither here nor there, but, It's placement (It's route) is simply horrible. The walk to the tee from the 7th green seems farther than the whole hole and it's all back tracking. OC is a tough enough walk. Allowing this hole to be built in it's current form is architectural mal-practice. Subsequent thoughts are frustratingly homicidal. Frustrating because one doesn't know who to off.
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Adam,
A bit harsh/provocative don't you think? Perhaps instead of going all the way back to the new tee on #8, you might have stopped and played the forward tee which, I assume, is probably where the old back tee was located.
Having said all this, one of the biggest routing errors I keep seeing primarily on courses which are trying to find more distance but also in some new construction is the long walk back to the tournament tees. This is often further complicated with trees that now get in the way or bad angles to the originally intended lines of play. I think that we both like to be able to pick our poison and too often some of these design changes force a golfer to hit a specific shot. I sure hope that they didn't do this at Lake.
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Lou, I played forward. Bill McBride described the old route as 20-30 yards.
My comments were not harsh, but as always, how I saw it.
I saw it from a far at first and was struck by just how awkward the route is. It reminded me of Lincoln CC in Nebraska. Where one tees of on 12, then tees off on 13. Plays out their ball on 12 and goes to the 13th fairway to finish that hole. It is that out of character and out of whack.
Gib's notion of just walking over to nine tee after putting out on 7 is the best idea on this thread, and entered my mind as we were there. If I had taken a cart, maybe the hideousness of it all would've been mitigated.
Since I was at the '98 Open, I was struck at the approach looks of the new O club. It appeared to be a bit repetitive and rote with a bunker right bunker left look. Back in '98 the angles looked much more enticing and difficult.
This whole subject matter is enough to make a person just give up realizing that politics, social climbing and ass kissing seem to always win out. Maybe today, after seeing Meadow Club my hope will be restored?
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Vandalism it is !
Allowing this hole to be built in it's current form is architectural mal-practice. Subsequent thoughts are frustratingly homicidal. Frustrating because one doesn't know who to off.
As I have said before, the entire responsibility for this vandalism is the superintendent, Pat Finlen. He is a rogue superintendent who ram rodded these poorly thought out changes through the greens committee, board of directors and membership.
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In the end, the Olympic Club is known for hosting US Open Championships. Doing this is more important to the club than architectural significance thus guiding their decisions on the golf course. Whether you like the "new" 8th hole or not, they needed to do it to continue to host US Open's and remain a test for the world's best golfers. No doubt Olympic Club has it's place in history and is an excellent test of golf but I think the California Golf Club is preferred over Olympic.
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John, All I can say is that the members who are allowed to play in between the U.S. Opens, are lucky to have the Cliffs and Ocean courses to play good fun golf, rather than this thing you are calling a good test.
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In the end, the Olympic Club is known for hosting US Open Championships.
This is the mentality that the superintendent and general manger have and its exactly what the problem is. Its a shame that they ignore the ten of thousands of rounds in between US Opens. Going forward after 2012, when will Olympic get another Open? Maybe 2025?
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This whole subject matter is enough to make a person just give up realizing that politics, social climbing and ass kissing seem to always win out. Maybe today, after seeing Meadow Club my hope will be restored?
Adam, guaranteed you will love the Meadow Club. It has a wonderfully peaceful feeling out there with the deer and the turkeys and that classic Mackenzie routing. Note how he uses the hills just like he did at Valley Club and (from what I've heard) Royal Melbourne. It's a great walk with a bunch of really strong holes like #7 and #9. Please say hello to Jim and Tully, and give us some feedback after your round.
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This whole subject matter is enough to make a person just give up realizing that politics, social climbing and ass kissing seem to always win out. Maybe today, after seeing Meadow Club my hope will be restored?
Adam, guaranteed you will love the Meadow Club. It has a wonderfully peaceful feeling out there with the deer and the turkeys and that classic Mackenzie routing. Note how he uses the hills just like he did at Valley Club and (from what I've heard) Royal Melbourne. It's a great walk with a bunch of really strong holes like #7 and #9. Please say hello to Jim and Tully, and give us some feedback after your round.
Adam,
I think Bill captures the experience at the Meadow Club very well, a fine golf course and some excellent restoration work on the part of Mike DeVries. In addition to the holes noted above, take some time on the 3rd green, some awesome contouring there.
TK
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Since I was at the '98 Open, I was struck at the approach looks of the new O club. It appeared to be a bit repetitive and rote with a bunker right bunker left look. Back in '98 the angles looked much more enticing and difficult.
Which "approach looks" changed for you since 1998?
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Vandalism it is !
Having just played the course for the first time, the new 8th hole sticks out in ways few holes can, or, ever will. The actual hole (Teeing ground and Green) is neither here nor there, but, It's placement (It's route) is simply horrible. The walk to the tee from the 7th green seems farther than the whole hole and it's all back tracking. OC is a tough enough walk. Allowing this hole to be built in it's current form is architectural mal-practice. Subsequent thoughts are frustratingly homicidal. Frustrating because one doesn't know who to off.
Adam,
Glad this thread got some new life. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. OC is a classical beauty that has been rode hard and put up wet. I believe you and I had the same host, and his idea about #7 green to #9 tee rang true with me the day I played there. I've seen pictures of the shorter/blind landing #8, and it looked to be a better hole. Were the fairway mowing lines still jacked up on your visit this week?
God I wish I could've seen that course circa 1962.
As an aside, we drove over to the par three course and it looked delightful.
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In the end, the Olympic Club is known for hosting US Open Championships. Doing this is more important to the club than architectural significance thus guiding their decisions on the golf course. Whether you like the "new" 8th hole or not, they needed to do it to continue to host US Open's and remain a test for the world's best golfers. No doubt Olympic Club has it's place in history and is an excellent test of golf but I think the California Golf Club is preferred over Olympic.
don't you need to offer a "full disclosure" statement after that one? ;)
Seriously, i agree that the "championship" angle comes up quite a bit in support of the new 8th, as I've aften heard other Olympians say "can't have any weak holes on an US Open course". With that said, what about 7 @ Pebble... 13 @ Merion... 12 @ Augusta... etc... just don't think a short hole necessarily means a weak hole.
My one contention, is that we play this new version of the hole, on a regular basis, about 10 yds too deep... we basically went from a 8I or 9I to playing a 4I and I think if we were to land somewhere in the middle, say a 160 yd. shot, that would sooth some of the wounds. Oh yeah, take out that back bunker too.
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Wayne -- good call on the disclosure. And I don't know how someone on the outside can opine on what is important to the club or not. I certainly wouldn't talk about what is important at SF Club, Lake Merced or Cal Club.
Re: the old 8th, I don't know anyone who would include it in the same sentence or even paragraph as the other three short holes you mentioned. You wouldn't say it was comparable in terms of challenge or interest at a short length as those, would you? The 8th was certainly a great fit in between 7 and 9, but in my opinion it was never a hole you thought about before or after playing it...it was just a nice connector between the fun 7th and the demanding 9th.
And re the discussion of the hole from way back in history, I'm still waiting to hear the merits of an uphill, blind 130 yd approach to a hole with a biarritz green. When your ball is in the swale 99.9% of the time should you pine for a roll-through to the back level like Linus waiting for the Great Pumpkin?
Improving the walk from 7 to 8 is not the most difficult task in the history of gca. The young cypress trees around the tee will grow, and I am hopeful that egress for walkers will be improved....I know for a fact that the aesthetics of the transition is something that the club recognizes. Let's not get carried away and turn the walk into some kind of death march ala Poppy Ridge.
I for one have no interest in playing the Lake Course circa 1998 over the current version. And I don't know (any)many who would.
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Meadow Club was sick good from the go. Loved the opening sequences and the front nine flew by with everyone in the foursome giddy over the fun factor. I adored the 16th especially. The 8th was sureal. The 17th green was pure MacNifficent. As was the closer The whole place exuded simple elegance. The split fairway at 13/15? made me wonder if there aren't a few more opportunities out there for that kind of intimacy.
Tyler, I sunk a 50 footer on 3 for 3. 1 putted the first 3 out of four. It was a great front nine with Jim and two elder gentleman. One of which finished birdie par par.
Saw Tully twice during the round which was a treat. He was witness to my immediate infatuation with 16. Before and after coming up woefully short with my sand wedge.
Kevin, As I qualified, I saw OClub from a far. And my recollection from 98' is nothing to bank on. But, I seemed to recall more cross carries, with different sharper angles on the few holes I did see. The tree removal is a start but apparently not on going. Heck it was practically dark on the north and/or east end of the property by 4 pm. I don't see any fix for the routing catastrophe going to the 8th.
Ben, The rough lines were arbitrary and made ZERO sense. Even though the rough was cut. 16 was an awful long slog. But by then, I was total F'd out and out of gas.
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And my recollection from 98' is nothing to bank on. But, I seemed to recall more cross carries, with different sharper angles on the few holes I did see.
Huh ??? Cross carries? Sharper angles? Can you provide more color on what you mean by those definitions. I checked the GCA bible and couldn't find one ...
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Think Raynor on steroids.
The best I can do is bring up similar type greens. Harbottle's 17th at the course in Nampa Idaho. Bunkers that are in front of the green with the entrance to the green on a side with a steep uhphill nature to them. Hey, Mike, Can you understand how feeble my recollection is? If you would just tell me the approach looks have not changed I would believe you. But, in either case, the bunker right, bunker left, green front, is not how I remember it. Nothing special in my book. Been there seen that a zillion times.
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Adam -
I have played golf on the OC Lake course for almost 30 years, I do not think the greenside bunkering and/or the shape/slope of the greens have changed in any material way over that time. The obvious exceptions are the 7th & 8th holes and the 18 green, which was flattened and the re-sloped.
In my mind, the tree removal over the past several years is far & away the most dramatic change on the property over this period. I would love to see it continue on the lower portion of the property.
DT
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Thanx David. That's all I needed to hear to know my observations were long ago and from far away. It is amazing they are able to grow grass with so little direct sunlight. MAybe thats why it's so soft?
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Adam -
Between the dense tree lines, the coastal fog and the fact that the property slopes away from the afternoon sun, the Lake Course has always played on the soft (to very soft) side.
To Mr. Finlen's credit, he did engage in a multi-year project to spread a lot of sand over the Lake course several years ago. The course certainly drains better in the winter months than it used to.
To amend my prior post, the green and the greenside bunkering on the par-3 15th hole has also be altered a bit since the 1998 Open.
I should also add that the idea to alter the 7th & 8th holes did not originate with Pat Finlen. I recall the possibility of those changes being made was raised a good 5-10 years before he was hired by the club.
DT
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Hey, Mike, Can you understand how feeble my recollection is? If you would just tell me the approach looks have not changed I would believe you. But, in either case, the bunker right, bunker left, green front, is not how I remember it. Nothing special in my book. Been there seen that a zillion times.
To clarify, are speaking specifically to the 8th hole? If so, yes, the current configuration is 100% different then the old version for the definition you stated.
I thought that you were commented on many other holes on the course that had "Cross carries" and "sharper angles" ... All the other 16 holes remain unchanged in their direction/set-up since 1998 or so when you last saw it.
A comment about the trees, sunlight and softness.
The aforementioned superintendent and staff did a remarkable job in firming up the course, at least for a while.
Unfortunately, it has become soft again and at the risk of getting myself in trouble by making a stupid uneducated statement, I question why they even TURNED ON the irrigation system in the past month or so. It should be getting firmer this time of the year, not softer each week.
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The first time I played Olympic Lake I was amazed by how damp it was. That, together with the cool weather, made the course play much longer than its yardage.
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Mike, the course in recent years has played firmer than the other courses adjacent to Lake Merced (all of them) and in my experience that is still the case. So that is a "relative" comment, FWIW.
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Bump.
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Kevin you are correct as to the relative softness. the Cal club is the only true firm and fast course I know of in the area 12 months a year. MPCC Shore is the only firm and fast course on the Monterey Pen.
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Joel,THANKS for the bump......timely....and rivetingly interseting.......I feel sheepish to have missed it......
And now, back to NBC.......
did Johnny really just call the final twosome "anal"......love Johnny, (most of the time)
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Many years ago, we had a Green Chairman/Autocrat named Dr. Carl Borders, who was every bit as pedantic on the subject of golf architecture as I am, the difference being that I did not have a dozer at my disposal (as he did) to test out design theories on the Ocean Course.
The idea of lengthening the 8th hole had been discussed for years prior to the Bill Love redesign (or debacle, depending on how aesthetically challenged the observer happens to be) - including possibly lengthening the 7th hole by placing the putting surface either in the gully or as a terraced target on the hillside. The idea was to preserve the integrity of the routing so we would not have an idiotic backtrack.
At the time, I was against the change under the theory that #2-6 were so difficult that a pair of short holes provided a necessary breather. I cannot believe I'm admitting this, but Dr. Borders had an excellent solution that we ought to have revisited. His thought was to leave #7 as it is (or restore it to two tiers as we have done, but without lengthening it ) and build an alternate tee up the hillside so that #8 could effectively be played from two directions.
Naturally, two cypress trees would have had to go and the bunkering modified so that the aesthetic would work from both angles, but compared to the mess of awkward tees and cement cart paths we ended up with, we must be out of our minds to have chosen this option.
From the tee, the new hole is pretty - and taken as an individual architectural expression, competently executed. The problem is that it has not grown on me. It is still a disjointed, artificial, CCFAD golf hole that blows chunks all over the intimacy and flow of the routing. It reminds me of #2 at Bandon Dunes - an obtuse, poorly conceived, out-of-context non-sequitur forced on the land against the laws of nature and geometry. There is a reason David Kidd put those terrific tees above the 1st green at Bandon; having played them several times, I cannot fathom why the resort still chooses to have everyone go through the exercise of backtracking down the hill.
We were not smart enough at Olympic to construct alternate tees, so now we're stuck with a ribbon of cement and a golf hole that sticks out like a nun in a cathouse.
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I can't help but bring this back up. Written many years ago, I warned the club, the board, the greens chairman, the superintendent and the green committee they are heading down the wrong path.
Finally, someone in 2019, made the decision to fire the person responsible and in 2020 they have hired a competent architect. I'm not going to be a homer and expect Olympic to rise in the ratings significantly, but it should at least become stable.
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Just to offer another point of view, how "wrong" could the path be if the OC Lake is hosting a US Women's Open, a US Am, a PGA Championship and a Ryder Cup over the next 13 years? ;)
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I was just out there and played the par three course. Most cars I had ever seen at a golf course in my life.
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I'm curious how much work Gil Hanse will be doing prior to the US Women's Open, June 3-6, 2021, and if he will be doing any work after that championship.
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Eric -
Per my comments on this other thread (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67947.0.html), Gil Hanse will likely be doing little or no work on the Lake prior to the 2021 Women's Open.
His initial brief is to develop a master plan for the entire property, to improve the club's practice facilities and to make changes to the Ocean & Cliffs courses as needed.
DT
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Eric -
Per my comments on this other thread (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67947.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67947.0.html)), Gil Hanse will likely be doing little or no work on the Lake prior to the 2021 Women's Open.
His initial brief is to develop a master plan for the entire property, to improve the club's practice facilities and to make changes to the Ocean & Cliffs courses as needed.
DT
David,
Sorry I missed your comment in the other thread. The reports are that Gil will make a presentation in the summer and work will begin in the fall, which is why I questioned the timing. Makes perfect sense that work won't begin on the Lake until after the Women's Open.