I think this course is very over rated. I never played the New
Troy,
If you think that is unkept then you need to play the rest of Scotland or Britain for that matter! All the courses at St.Andrews are pretty WELL kept in relation to the rest of the links in Scotland. ;D
Troy,
If you think that is unkept then you need to play the rest of Scotland or Britain for that matter! All the courses at St.Andrews are pretty WELL kept in relation to the rest of the links in Scotland. ;D
Troy,
If you think that is unkept then you need to play the rest of Scotland or Britain for that matter! All the courses at St.Andrews are pretty WELL kept in relation to the rest of the links in Scotland. ;D
Maybe "unpretentiously unkempt" would be the right phrase!
I think Fife runs that way in general. I love the understated look at Lundin Links and Elie and Crail too. Nothing fancy but properly maintained in the important places.
We British call it Golf. ;)Troy,
If you think that is unkept then you need to play the rest of Scotland or Britain for that matter! All the courses at St.Andrews are pretty WELL kept in relation to the rest of the links in Scotland. ;D
Hi Brian,
I use the term "unkempt" loosely, I know there is a lot of maintenance going on there and like Bill said, the maintenance is in the right places. I prefer golf courses that appear as natural as possible. Like the layout was there and all that was done was cut the turf short. Here in the PNW, we call it Pasture Golf. But, I like pretty much any golf course, especially the one I am working at and playing at the time.
Troy
The astro-turf cart paths are kinda cool, but man it sure could use some fertilizer to green it up a little couldn't it?Is there a smiley missing? :) I was thinking how green it was - you should see some of the links in SE England in a dry summer
The New course is my favourite course in St. Andrews.
Andrew,The New course is my favourite course in St. Andrews.
Brian,
Are you not a big fan of The Old Course?
I can't understand the blanket "you can't say you liked or appreciated TOC the first time round" statement, but that's a discussion for another thread.
I can't understand the blanket "you can't say you liked or appreciated TOC the first time round" statement, but that's a discussion for another thread.Scott,
Scott and Sean,
How many times have you played TOC?
The difference is that NSW does not have the width that TOC has to be able to create different ways of playing the course.
NSW is penal TOC is not.
TOC is one of the greatest courses in the world and has been ranked in the top 5 or 10 in all publications since golf publications have existed.
NSW has not.
There were at least 30 others on the day that we played the course that thought it was overated as well, not just myself.
Once.Sledging an Aussie makes my day.... ;)
I never said "understand". I said "enjoy and appreciate".
Given your comments about NSWGC based on one round played predominantly from the ladies tees, I think there's decent irony in your stance.
Sean,
That confirms what I said that nearly everyone I know goes through this little hate of the course after playing a few times, just when you think you start to understand it, you begin to not enjoy your rounds there. Is it the weather, is it the crappy caddie, is it the price, the system? No, it is the course messing with your mind and you start to doubt the greatness of it and think it is overpriced or not as good as you first thought.
But then, slowly but surely as you HAVE (you just cannot resist) to go back almost because of guilt you start to love her again and you go through another phase.....the "I think I know her now" phase while she coaxes you back, strokes your ego by letting you have a few good putts or rounds until again she bites back and lets you know who is boss.
That is the beauty of TOC she never lets go, she will frustrate, you may even not even come back for years but you WILL come back for that one last round of really, really enjoying her.
You probably have read the book "A Golfer's Education" by Darren Kilfara who used to post on here and I think his book summarizes TOC and phases a player might go through very well.
Given your comments about NSWGC based on one round played predominantly from the ladies tees, I think there's decent irony in your stance.C'mon Scott! The Old Course almost certainly has the steepest learning curve of any championship course in the world - the learning curve (or time it takes to understand it) is nothing like NSW.
Andrew,
I used to detest it. I have played it many times now as well as backwards and only in recent outings have I started to enjoy the golf. I prefer the New over the Old as do most locals. I don't know if the locals prefer the New because you can play it quicker or that they think it is a better course.
I have said on here that anyone who likes TOC the first time is either lying or is too nostalgic to be objective or is American and has never seen or played links courses before. The course is too blind from the tee for anyone to understand it the first time they play it.
Tony,
I am really sorry that we have hijacked your thread. Maybe one of us should start a new one?
I'm looking forward to playing it again in March at the EIGCA AGM
Brian, I thought my last sentence made a ‘TV show host’ quality segway back to The New course & the internal movement in its greens. Obviously my segway wasn’t that good & that TV show host job won’t be forth coming as I had hoped.
I wasn't meaning you Andrew...I meant it generally.
I'm not sure how useful a segway would be in this instance?
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Zcb4NHH8WWC0bM%3Ahttp://co2calculator.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/segway.jpg)
What I have come to dislike is The Old Course experience. OK, i'll give the starter his dues at setting it up for you as a round of a lifetime, but I resent being herded about like cattle if you drop a couple of minutes behind the clock, simply because you've had the misfortune to have to search for an errant ball, or heaven forbid, get stuck in a bunker. The last time I played there, one of my group basically put his ball in his pocket for the entire back nine, because he couldn't stand the stress of being hounded by the marshals. That is no way to treat a customer paying over £100, in my humble opinion.The first time I played it was 18 years ago with my wife and a young Irishman who joined us as a walk on on the tee. None of us had caddies or hafd played the course before. We lost a little ground on the group ahead (a pair in plus fours both with caddies who I, at the time, assumed to be R&A members)by the 7th and got a bit disoriented there. A marshall approached us and told us to miss out 8 and 9 and play 10 after the two ball in front. We refused and picked up the pace by, basically, running between shots. By the 11th we had caught the two-ball in front and then, still as a three ball, were foreced to wait on every shot. At no stage did a marshall approach the two ball in front.
It is crap. I have played off mats on TOC and it is awful. Kick it into the rough and then you don't have to play off the mat..ahem ahemI'm looking forward to playing it again in March at the EIGCA AGM
When of course, we'll be on mats... I'm a little nervous about that perhaps because I've no experience of it... Has anyone else?
As for The New Course, I'm really looking forward to tackling that one again too...
I don't think any seaside course can be wholly understood in one visit, but the oft uttered line about TOC is, in my opinion, bollocks.I missed this gem earlier - how can you make that call when you just aren't qualified!
I don't think any seaside course can be wholly understood in one visit, but the oft uttered line about TOC is, in my opinion, bollocks.I missed this gem earlier - how can you make that call when you just aren't qualified!
Those of us, who as Matt Ward would say have done the 'heavy lifting' by playing and seeing it multiple times, appreciate what it takes to understand and truly appreciate the course. I would suggest that if you did the same (and with so much time left in the UK, you have no excuses!), you might have a different view.
I don't think any seaside course can be wholly understood in one visit, but the oft uttered line about TOC is, in my opinion, bollocks.I missed this gem earlier - how can you make that call when you just aren't qualified!
Those of us, who as Matt Ward would say have done the 'heavy lifting' by playing and seeing it multiple times, appreciate what it takes to understand and truly appreciate the course. I would suggest that if you did the same (and with so much time left in the UK, you have no excuses!), you might have a different view.
Chris and Scott, just curious how far apart you two live in Australia. Perhaps another "grudge match" could be arranged! ;D Scott returns in your late spring 2010, should be lovely golf weather!
A quick trip through the literature.I trust the Peugeot Guide on most courses in Europe and think they have hit the nail on the head with those two courses. TOC is not a 10, it is too flawed on a number of holes to be a 10 and the New certainly not a 5.
Doak
Old 10 New 5 – not the first time I’ve disagreed (on both scores)
The Peugeot Guide
Old 18 New 17
Pennick , Allen and Hamilton ignore the new. Steel gives it the shortest of shrift preferring to tell us about changes to the Eden and Jubilee.
Finnegan
“Over the years I have found myself listening, from time to time, to those who prefer the New to the Old, claiming that the New is more honest, less capricious, that it presents its demands fairly, that the visitor has a chance here, that, in short, it is the better course. There is considerable truth in this brief but not in its conclusion. Yes, the new is good golf, at times very good golf. But it is not great golf.”
Pepper
“I tended to agree with my neighbour Eric Reid, who was fond of noting that “the Old Course is not the best course in the world, it’s not the most beautiful, and it’s not the most difficult...it is simply the most famous course in the World”. IN fact, a near-year in St Andrews had led me to the view held by many of the locals, that the Old was neither the best course nor the hardest course in town! Those distinctions belonged, respectively, to the New and the Jubilee.”
Perhaps you and I are interpreting the world "appreciate" differently, Chris. I made a point of saying I don't claim to "understand" the variety and subtle nuances of the course, but having played the course once, coupled with some not insignificant pre- and post-round literary and photographic study, I can and will claim to appreciate what it presents.Would you agree that someone could write the above and appreciate as claimed, without even playing the course?
The basic strategy.
The role the greenfront hazards and internal green movement play in making pin position such a big part of the ever changing strategy and driving placement.
The way many of the greens insist upon pinpoint distance control.
The scope there is for the wind to blow from any direction without width being insufficient.
The way the small amount of elevation change is used so economically.
The temptation the "easier" holes present in goading you into overstretching your ability.
Perhaps you and I are interpreting the world "appreciate" differently, Chris. I made a point of saying I don't claim to "understand" the variety and subtle nuances of the course, but having played the course once, coupled with some not insignificant pre- and post-round literary and photographic study, I can and will claim to appreciate what it presents.Would you agree that someone could write the above and appreciate as claimed, without even playing the course?
The basic strategy.
The role the greenfront hazards and internal green movement play in making pin position such a big part of the ever changing strategy and driving placement.
The way many of the greens insist upon pinpoint distance control.
The scope there is for the wind to blow from any direction without width being insufficient.
The way the small amount of elevation change is used so economically.
The temptation the "easier" holes present in goading you into overstretching your ability.
What is presented above is hardly groundbreaking stuff, and could easily be garnered from the hundreds of books on the subject without even visiting Scotland
Perhaps you and I are interpreting the world "appreciate" differently, Chris. I made a point of saying I don't claim to "understand" the variety and subtle nuances of the course, but having played the course once, coupled with some not insignificant pre- and post-round literary and photographic study, I can and will claim to appreciate what it presents.Would you agree that someone could write the above and appreciate as claimed, without even playing the course?
The basic strategy.
The role the greenfront hazards and internal green movement play in making pin position such a big part of the ever changing strategy and driving placement.
The way many of the greens insist upon pinpoint distance control.
The scope there is for the wind to blow from any direction without width being insufficient.
The way the small amount of elevation change is used so economically.
The temptation the "easier" holes present in goading you into overstretching your ability.
What is presented above is hardly groundbreaking stuff, and could easily be garnered from the hundreds of books on the subject without even visiting Scotland
A quick trip through the literature.I trust the Peugeot Guide on most courses in Europe and think they have hit the nail on the head with those two courses. TOC is not a 10, it is too flawed on a number of holes to be a 10 and the New certainly not a 5.
Doak
Old 10 New 5 – not the first time I’ve disagreed (on both scores)
The Peugeot Guide
Old 18 New 17
Pennick , Allen and Hamilton ignore the new. Steel gives it the shortest of shrift preferring to tell us about changes to the Eden and Jubilee.
Finnegan
“Over the years I have found myself listening, from time to time, to those who prefer the New to the Old, claiming that the New is more honest, less capricious, that it presents its demands fairly, that the visitor has a chance here, that, in short, it is the better course. There is considerable truth in this brief but not in its conclusion. Yes, the new is good golf, at times very good golf. But it is not great golf.”
Pepper
“I tended to agree with my neighbour Eric Reid, who was fond of noting that “the Old Course is not the best course in the world, it’s not the most beautiful, and it’s not the most difficult...it is simply the most famous course in the World”. IN fact, a near-year in St Andrews had led me to the view held by many of the locals, that the Old was neither the best course nor the hardest course in town! Those distinctions belonged, respectively, to the New and the Jubilee.”
I am not sure that Pepper has it right about the two courses but it is a close call. The Jubilee is just a very tough and long course that is not fun at all. The Eden used to be a superb course (I never played it before Steel and The Links Trust wrecked it) but it certainly not now, far from it. We used to use The Eden for a quick round after some lectures when I was attending Uni in Edinburgh and when I was lecturing the students for a week on the EIGCA course. It is great for a fun quick round especially if you drop 14 and 15!
I totally agree. In Norway the scores are very inflated but the actual ranking is pretty spot on.
I think the Peugeot Guide inflates the value of a great many courses, but it generally gets the placement right. Like it I too think the Old and New are much closer in quality than Doak suggests, but I am not sure where to place The New as I haven't seen it in so many years.
Ciao
I thought the course was tougher than the Old, but lacked character. It is worth a spin but I would not rate it higher than 5 on the Doak scale.
I love St. Andrews.
Scott, in some respects your position is like someone who watches the pilot episode of Entourage, then goes around and tells everyone what a brilliant series it is. Yes, they would be correct, but they really don't know what they talking about. They haven't seen enough to have a proper appreciation of why its brilliant.
I thought the course was tougher than the Old, but lacked character. It is worth a spin but I would not rate it higher than 5 on the Doak scale.
I love St. Andrews.
Brent
Does The New lack character or is it lacking compared to what may be one of the most characterful courses in the world - The Old?
I am not picking on you, but it is that sort of attitude which makes me believe archies have a tough job of it to build grade level architecture on land which is less than inspiring - even though that land can yield some excellent golf - which TNC is an one of many examples of.
Ciao