[David Mulle]

I don't want to highjack Carl's thread "Does Familiarity Breed Contempt" so I am staring a new thread to discuss Buille Rock.

In the earlier thread, Dan Herrmann nominated Bulle Rock:
"I'd pitch Bulle Rock in Havre de Grace, MD.  No doubt it's a very good golf course, but every time I play it my contempt increases.  It's strange too, because I really want to like the place.  The shot values at Bulle Rock just seem too "forced" to me, and the greens seem a bit uninspired.   Strangely, I know that I liked it much more the first time I played it."

Personally, I couldn't disagree more.  When I asked what he meant by "forced" he gave a number of examples, some of which I agreed with and some of which I do not.

I figured I would respond in a new thread so that more people can chime in:

Dan,
Well, we are pretty much in agreement on half of your examples but I still disagree with your main point!

I agree with you about 9 and 18.  18 seemed cliched to me and I never understood the right hand option on 9.

I think you are confused about 12.  Isn't that a par 3?  I think a draw would work into that green.

I don't think the par 15th, forces your hand.  Quite to the contrary.  The upper fairway isn't really an option for the tee shot.  But the second shot is very interesting because you need to decide how aggressive you are going to be.  If you are conservative on your second shot, it will leave a longer 3rd shot into the green.  If are more aggressive you take the chance of leaving it on the hill (or worse in the creek) but if you are successful, you have a shorter 3rd shot.  And given the contours of the green, a shorter approach is definitely a good thing.  One of the things that I like about Dye's courses is his use of angles.  I think 15 is so interesting because as opposed to a lot of his holes that use angles on the tee shots (e.g. the 2nd hole at the Pete Dye Golf Club and the 14th at Bulle Rock), he uses the hilll and the creek for the same purpose on the second shot.

But for me, the strong holes vastly outweigh 9 and 18.  You spot on about the par 5 2nd.  I think the 7th and 17th are both very good par 3s.   5 is my favorite par 4 on the course (I really like that green site).  The combination of 5 followed by the short par 4, 6th I think works very well.  I also think 13 is a very cool hole with the ravine to the right and the green tucked into that corner among the rocks.   14 uses the bunkers on the right side to again force you to decide how aggressive you want to be and if you bail out to the left it punishes you because you are stuck with a sidehill lie in the rough  that makes the approach into the green much more difficult because it is not receptive to a fade.

[Andy Troeger]

I liked Bulle Rock a lot, although I've only played it once. I thought it had a lot of really strong holes, including #2 as mentioned. One thing I often like about Pete Dye is that he's never boring, and I think most of the holes at Bulle Rock work well. I tend to agree that the right side of the 9th doesn't provide much advantage, but its a good enough hole going left. The 18th is a strong par four on its own merits, regardless of what might exist at other courses.

My favorite hole out there was #13 with a really cool green site. I'd like to see #15 at least once more before making judgement there, I got out of position which made it tough. It has a pretty good flow with some really hard holes and a fair amount that were much more manageable. I think it deserves more credit as a course than it tends to get.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

I have played Bulle Rock several times over the last few years.

The 9th would be a better hole if the back tee were moved up about 20 or so yards so that the right side option is within the reach of a greater percentage of players.

Dye made it a point to include a few long par-4 holes that go uphill. The 9th is just a beast of a hole -- ditto for I believe is the 5th.

In regards to how the course stands -- I have played better Dye courses - Bulle Rock overdoses on the demand side and frankly it's missing a few good quality short holes which would provide a better counterpoint and a first rate change of pace situation. A steady diet of fastballs doesn't make for a top tier pitcher and the same holds true for me about a course that accentuates the demand meter without providing a bit more beguiling holes.

All in all, I like Bulle Rock but if I had to choose I'd much rather play P.B.'s layout not too far away.

[archie_struthers]

 

I really like the imagination and flair of Pete Dye. Met him at Pine Valley in my youth and he couldn't have been nicer or more interesting his being said Bulle Rock didn't inspire me. Some good holes but it just seems to jag here and there with no real flow. The  back nine seems so much different than the front , almost like two different courses. I just didn't get it. 

When I played there years ago I had been subjected to lots of hype re Bulle Rock , so this have been an overreaction, maybe not..Anyone not like the construction of the bunkers ?   They realy seemed an afterthought m not a focal point.

[Andy Shulman]

I've also only played Bulle Rock once.  While it's not - IMO - a course where you'd want to play most of your rounds, it does have several very good holes and forces the good golfer to shape shots in both directions moreso than most courses.

THE GOOD: #2, #12 and #14.  With regard to #12, while I normally appreciate having a place to bail out on a par-3, I especially like this hole BECAUSE it forces you to hit one high-quality, medium-length shot - right is in the water, left is in the sand - without offering any true bail out option.  I liked #14 as a fun, short par-4 that serves as a good contrast to the very challenging 13th.

THE BAD: I don't get #9 either and agree with Matt about moving up the tees to make going right a viable option for more players.  Also, the par-5 #15 seems a bit awkward.  Maybe playing it a few times would help.

One final observation is that I found it odd that the staff seemed almost gleeful about how difficult the course is/was.  No one wants a course that's a pushover, but one that's too difficult isn't any fun.

[David Mulle]

One final observation is that I found it odd that the staff seemed almost gleeful about how difficult the course is/was.  No one wants a course that's a pushover, but one that's too difficult isn't any fun.

That is a very good point.  IMO, the rough is too thick and I think they sometimes go for mickey mouse pin positions.

[Andy Hughes]

All in all, I like Bulle Rock but if I had to choose I'd much rather play P.B.'s layout not too far away.

PB Dye Golf Club, in my neck of the woods?  Bravo, I still have hope for you Matt! 

[Jerry Kluger]

Well guys I must first say that I'm not a fan of PB Dye - it does have some cool features but it just seemed like a cheap imitation of a Pete Dye course.  I view Bulle Rock as a good course and I enjoyed playing it. Problem to me with it (And I cannot remember the exact holes) is that it has a few holes that you either really like or really dislike such as 12 and 18.  I truly believe that if they didn't try and see how high a fee they could get away with that the course would be better received.  They now have deals where if you pay for two rounds you get the third one free which is what the price should have been from the start.  They also had big plans to build a second course and some housing which collapsed - it made me wonder why they didn't just develop all of that property for housing and leave Beechtree alone.

[Joe Bausch]

A Bulle Rock photo album at Joe Logan's MyPhillyGolf.com 'Bausch Collection':

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/BulleRock/index.html

[Jay Flemma]

I love BUlle Rock, it's just the price I don't like...

David, what does your friend mean when he says the "shot values seem forced" - we need a more detailed explanation of his criticisms to discuss them...

[David Mulle]

Jay,
Here is the post by Dan Herrmann in the other post.  As I said, some of his points I agree with, some I do not.

David,
Sure - In random order...
#16 to me is a really goofy par 5 that Dye "forces your hand" on.  Sure, you can TRY for the upper (left-side) fairway, but to me, it's way out of reach.

#18 is the classic Dye 18th hole - water all the way up the left side, needless to say, you keep it in the center or to the right.

#12 forces a cut shot off the tee.

#9 presents options, but not a single LPGA'er chose the right side option.  And I know why - I tried it only to be left with an impossible shot.  So why even build that right side?

All that said, I think #2 is a fantastic par 5.  Not only strategic, but visually stunning.  I just wish that the rest of the course was as good.

[Matt MacIver]

I've played both BR and PB Dye once, and liked PB Dye better, mostly for the routing and flow as well as a few more identifable risk-reward shots.  And if you add the prices to the mix I certainly play PBD again before Bulle. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have only played BR twice and that was about ten years ago. I remember thinking that it was a good course but did not enjoy it at all. I was not sqd to be done with the round.  It was nothing I could put my finger on but have not wanted to go back.

[Jay Flemma]

I will also add I really like BR much better than PBD.

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