Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Buck Wolter on June 30, 2008, 11:01:18 PM
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I was scheduled to have a weekend at Kingsley earlier in June but United Airlines decided I really wanted a day trip to O'hare. I was looking forward to meeting with Dan Lucas and getting a tour of the changes that Mike DeVries has been working on with the club on #17. Thought it would be of interest to the group here to see the changes.
I have only played the course twice and haven't seen the changes but volunteered to post some photos the club was nice enough to provide. Hopefully Dan and/or Mike will chime in with some details but Dan told me in an email that the total fairway was basically being doubled on the hole. My recollection is that #17 was the tightest hole on the course. Two new bunkers are being added according to the club as well.
Here are the basic stats and description of the hole:
Back Regular Middle Forward Par
509 484 434 378 5
A reachable par five for most players, the seventeenth plays to the top of a ridge before falling sharply to a large bowl and then rising again to the green set amongst mature hardwoods. Good drives will crest the landing area at the top of the hill and leave a short iron for an approach.
Drives to the top of the hill will look down upon the green and have a chance to get home in two with a well-struck fairway wood. The green will set classically in the trees and be flanked by bunkers.
Diagram
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DIAhole17.jpg)
Routing (#17 Just right of the North Indicator)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/route.jpg)
Before shots of #17
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/1701.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/1702.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/1704.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/1706.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/1707.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/1709.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/1710.jpg)
Phase 1 Construction Photos
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC00936.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC00934.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC00931.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC00932.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC00935.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC00933.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC00949.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC00950.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC00951.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC00952.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC00955.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC00956.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC00957.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC00958.jpg)
Current Photos
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC01111.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC01112.jpg)
The existing bunker on the left becomes a centerline hazard with a new bunker(s) along the left?
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC01113.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/DSC01114.jpg)
I believe the irrigation is in and the seeding has been done or will be shortly -- amazing amount of work done by Dan and his crew over the last month. Thanks to Brian Conklin and Justin Mack at the club who provided the photos -- exciting that a club with the accolades that it has already received isn't afraid to make some dramatic changes in the way of expanded options and better turf.
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Buck
thanks much for posting. I hope those who've played the course can chime in. I thought the only Mike Devries course I've played a wonderful one. On the one hand and at first viewing, the changes here to 17 seem to be making it more of a Mike Devries Par 5 (or at least more of what I think of as a Mike Devries Par 5). On the other hand, the original -- in it's 'take what the land is giving you' aesthetic and strategy -- didn't surprise me either, coming from Mike. I'd love to hear the thoughts of the more knowledgable and experienced Kingsley Club golfers...
Thanks
Peter
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The irrigation is in. The areas for fairway and mowed rough have been floated for seeding, but this has not happened due to erosion mats not arriving in time. Seeding should happen sometime this week if it did not happen today.
Two years ago, 17 was opened up a bit, and I was fortunate enough to be on the crew while this happened. The original images of 17 posted by Buck always showed a hole that was cramped and very much different from every other hole on the course. From 2006 onward, the hole has 'breathed' a bit more easily, and the green certainly has not been surrounded by mature hardwoods. All trees behind and to the right were removed, and many down the left side of the fairway were also removed and turfed in.
Here are some images from last Friday:
From the existing tee
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj23/bjh44/IMG_3237.jpg)
From what will be a new tee moved to the left to encourage more play to the newly opened left side
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj23/bjh44/IMG_3246.jpg)
The two new bunkers have been sodded with the existing native that was torn up during construction. This is the same stuff that was seeded two years ago in the last widening. In a few weeks, once the sod takes root, edge lines will be spray painted randomly (in the truest sense) and then cut with a sod knife and tamped in. The bunkers will then get lined with a permeable geotextile and filled and then wait for the new seed to grow in.
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj23/bjh44/IMG_3234.jpg)
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj23/bjh44/IMG_3229.jpg)
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj23/bjh44/IMG_3227.jpg)
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The opening up of that hole certainly appeals to me as to the look of it but somebody like Mike DeVries should talk about what kind of additional functional options and strategies will be opened up with this alteration and how much they will be used in actual play. I know it'd just be an estimation, at this point, but after-all that's what architectural planning is all about.
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I played Kingsley this year about 4 weeks ago. Probably my 5th or 6th round there. I think the changes at 17, which they were clearing it when I played a few weeks ago, really improve the hole. I liked the hole before but now it makes it more of a thinking hole, rather than bomb it over the hill and long iron in.. Should be a nice step up on that hole.
-Brian
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Is that the same hole?
I cannot believe the difference.
I played there about 3 years ago and would not have recognised the hole...what a huge inprovement, as the old 17th was probabaly the weak link on an otherwise awesome course.
I was supposed to gp back to play in The Peninslua Cup next month but have been sidelined with Tigeritis...knee surgery...now I am even more dissapointed.
great photographs thank you guys very much.
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I love it. It is good for the hole, and is more in keeping with the rest of the course. I thinki it is a great idea, and looks to be well-executed. There is interesting topography there that was wasted as deep woods.
Now about #9... ;)
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I love it. It is good for the hole, and is more in keeping with the rest of the course. I thinki it is a great idea, and looks to be well-executed. There is interesting topography there that was wasted as deep woods.
Now about #9... ;)
The only way I could figure out to birdie #9 was out of the front bunker!
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Great course getting better. This is all good stuff....
About half the courses I play need a good chainsaw taken to them.
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Since the course opening, the 17th has undergone several tweaks. Each has made it a better hole. This is by far a more dramatic revision to the hole, and it is very exciting to see. I have witnessed the course evolve substantially since first playing the front 9 in 1999. Most of that evolution has taken place on the back 9, and it has been a lot of fun to witness. Many of the golden age courses evolved over their first 10 - 20 years of opening, and I think this approach has served The Kingsley Club very well. Can't wait to play the new fairway.
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Buck, Tom Paul, et al.
I spoke with Mike this evening and his intention was to post on the thread tonight. But, the internet gremlins have conspired agin'em.
He will get to answering your questions as soon as he has overcome the gremlins.
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Not architecture related....but I can tell you the view from the back porches of the cottages is much improved.
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Weren't the long drivers hitting mid irons into that green when playing it at 500 yards and catching the big downslope off the tee? I gotta think that the new back tee from the rear left made it highly necessary to take out the forest to the left and then make a quality approach with the new center line instead of left side bunker and new approach FW to its left. Will the new tees still allow the 270-300 hitters to get to the near crest of the hill, and see anything of the green, or tip of flag? I can see the merit in widening the approach on the left of the existing bunker in that case, because it really makes the guy going for it more heroically than the old second shot, think about the bunker big time, and if he can't quite see it, and has to walk ahead a little to scope it out before playing the shot makes it all the more exciting, IMO.
Any tweaking or thinking by Mikey D about the far left gully and upslope into the woods in the LZ on 18? ;) ;D 8)
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Hi All,
Sorry for the long wait -- still having computer problems, but have my fingers crossed it won't be too long!
As to the changes -- there are more trees on the back nine and this was due to the maturity of the trees there and the overall scrub from the clearcut of the front 10 years prior to building the course. There was some cutting on the back, but not nearly so uniformly wall-to-wall as the front. I would have initially cut more trees on the back for many reasons: agronomics for the pure fescue turf, tie-in to the front nine openness, and an overall appreciation of the roll of the land.
As on any project, trees are the most controversial subject of all. Everyone is a tree-hugger to some extent and want to keep the beautiful specimens, even if they are impeding the turf (remember that trees steal the sunlight, air movement, nutrients, and water -- that's 4 strikes! -- from the turf). In the beginning, there was resistance to cutting more on the back from the owners and we have been removing trees every year to improve the turf quality -- as Nick pointed out, we have tweaked the trees on 17 many times and this year we expanded the hole as you see from my earlier discussions with them about what the hole could become.
All the tees will remain in their current positions this year but we will change them next year. The gold (back) tee is staying where it is, but we will add another tee about 30 yards back, near the current turnaround circle. The blue, white, and red tees will move to the left of the current cart path and lose a little yardage from the current sets -- this move better aligns the average player with the widened hole and gives them more options. When the tees move over, we will also re-align the cart path on 16 to run adjacent to the fairway, giving better access to the hole and less disruption between the 2 holes when it is busy during events, thus improving the flow through this area.
The main advantages to the changes are dramatically improved turf conditions for the fescue by providing the 4 essential items noted above. There will be increased options for players of all levels -- the ability to drive it over the hill now is only afforded to the big hitters, but the new left route will give shorter players a chance -- the actual drop-off is shorter by about 10 yards, but the flat ground spot on the left is at least 30 yards shorter, and with the dry, tight fairways where the ball always runs, hitting over the hill becomes a very doable option. The left alley is a little narrower to offset the shorter carry required and the 2 new bunkers will make the 3rd shot longer, as the recovery from them will not permit a long shot from them. The retention of the gold tee where it is and the new longer one will still demand the good players hit a really clean shot to get it down the big hill. The left alley has a little flatter pitch to it than the existing right side -- there are a few areas that will make for a flatter stance in spots -- and the angle of the approach to the green is advantageous for certain pins and shot types, so that leads to more variety. The look from the left also sometimes obscures the green surface, due to the large ridge that comes off the left hillside above the fairway bunker that was on the left but is now in the middle. The look of the hole is very dramatic, both from the tee and the green, looking back -- I am very pleased with the work. An interesting note to the strategy -- one of the better players in the club prefers to be on the top of the hill so he can cut his 3W into the green. He said the maple next to the bunker and the one near the green knocked down that shot every time but now he can go for it. My hope is that players will be more tempted to go for it and have an opportunity to do so more often.
We are also adding a new back tee on 14, adding about 25-30 yards for the gold tee there -- a similar challenge as was done on #10 a couple of years back.
Hope that answers the questions!
Mike
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Additionally, going down the shorter left side is also offset by the angle into the green. From the left you must carry the left fronting bunker, and,if you do, you are likely to be kicked into one of the right front bunkers unless a perfectly shaped shot really hugs the left hand side (this happened to me today from the current left side rough from 180). The green also slopes from back left to front right, placing further advantage for down the rightside hill.
An another note, the maintained area (fairway and short rough) has been seeded, and boy is there a load of erosion mat. I'll post photos tomorrow--too tired now after a state-spanning drive.
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I finally got to see Kingsley last week -- 17 looks like it will be a blast and judging by the play I saw the existing and new bunkers are going to get some use. Given the slope of the green I don't think it will be a pushover as anything above the hole is damn near dead, my partner's eagle putt ended up 30 yards down the hill and I had to putt 45 degrees from the hole due to going past the pin.
The rest of the course was in great shape, kudos to Dan Lucas and his crew for not slipping while they obviously have done a huge amount of work on 17 -- the course was brownish green and the greens all had a nice patina, firm and pretty damn fast while still playable even in a brisk wind.
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I played the Kingsley Club yesterday for the first time this year and as usual, it did not disappoint. Just an absolutely fantastic and incredibly FUN golf course. I haven't played a course that I can say "hands down" is more fun, or has more variety and strategy than Kingsley; and that includes the Bandon courses. There is an infinite number of ways to play almost every hole, and that's tough to beat...
The first time I played Kingsley was in 2001 or 2002, and I have played it twice since, including yesterday (thanks Mac). Each time I play it, I notice subtle changes (although I can't call the most recent change to 17 subtle) that the club has made and how well these changes turned out. The tree clearing on 10, 11, 14/15 (new), 17 and 18 worked wonders for the back nine and really tied to two nines together. It's great to see that small tweaks can be made to make an already fantastic golf course that much better, while at the same time keeping the "feel" of the course true to its origin.
The 17th looks awesome; it's seeded and looks to be growing in nicely (from an untrained eye). The look of the hole fits the course drastically better than it did prior to opening it up. That was the only tee shot on the course where the golfer felt a little claustrophobic, but the tweaks will fix that and introduce a multitude of options as well as give the hole a look that matches the rest of the course.
Couples questions regarding the 17th for anyone who may be in the "know":
- will there be any maintained rough around the outside of the centerline bunkers at the crest of the hill? If so, how much, and how closely will the fairway enclose the group?
- will the fairway extend close up to the right side of the new left fairway bunkers? And how far left will the fairway extend left before the new left fairway bunker group?
- will the ridge short/left of the green be maintained as long wild grass, rough, or as fairway? And along those same lines, will there be fairway left of the large bunker that fronts the green, making it a centerline sand trap?
I look forward to learning more about the project and to seeing the final product. And as always, I'm looking forward my next go-around at the Kingsley Club.
Cheers,
George
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Couples questions regarding the 17th for anyone who may be in the "know":
- will there be any maintained rough around the outside of the centerline bunkers at the crest of the hill? If so, how much, and how closely will the fairway enclose the group?
- will the fairway extend close up to the right side of the new left fairway bunkers? And how far left will the fairway extend left before the new left fairway bunker group?
- will the ridge short/left of the green be maintained as long wild grass, rough, or as fairway? And along those same lines, will there be fairway left of the large bunker that fronts the green, making it a centerline sand trap?
George,
Thanks for the questions.
1) Fairway will be cut close to the centerline bunker complex on the tee side and left and right, so a ball will run into them. There will be maintained rough to complement and integrate the bunkers with longer native rough on the back of the bunkers.
2) The fairway will go out to the left of the new left fairway bunker and will be mown closely to the tee side of the bunker for those "roll-ins." There will be ample space to play a very conservative drive on the left, short of the bunkers, with the requisite blind second over the hill to the bottom of the fairway in the second landing area for an uphill approach. Native rough will be on the back side and left of the bunker.
3)The ridge above the bunker that is short of the green will remain as long native grass, but fairway at the bottom will go left to widen the second landing area and accommodate drives down the left alley side off the tee. So, yes, the bunker that was on the left of the approach is now a centerline bunker.
On a related note, Golfweek just had a raters retreat in northern MI and they played Kingsley on Monday -- I would be interested in more of their thoughts, especially after more reflection and time away from the course.
Best,
Mike
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I'm concerned the change makes it much easier for the long ball hitter, who can aim at the center bunkers and spray his ball +/- 40-50 yards. Whereas a truly long ball hitter used to be soemwhat precise, he will almost always succeed getting his ball to the bottom of the hill. I think this change adds to the big advantage the bomber already has here.
During my recent visit, we played from the back tees into a stiff breeze most days, and the existing tee shot is very exacting for a guy like me, who typically hits it 230-250 off the tee. The next shot is blind, and must be executed well to have a third shot from the fairway.
So, let's take two low handicappers, the straighter medium length hitter and the big power player (you wouldn't believe how far this guy hit the ball). For me, the old hole either went driver, mid-iron, short-iron (70-80%), or bad driver, short-iron, mid-iron (20-30%). The percentage for the easier scenario will likely jump into the 90% range. The bomber plays it today as driver, mid-to-short iron (60-70%), then driver, recovery, mid-iron (or worse, like driver, reload, driver, etc.) (30-40%), and now he's more like driver, mid-to-short iron (90%).
Well, all of that explanation was a bit complex. I believe golf courses should have a few holes which give the long hitter an advantage. #17 at Kingsley is an unusual example, and the changes only increase the advantage.
I heard Shivas McClayman was spotted at the retreat.
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John,
I somewhat agree with your concern, however with the new back tee it will take a solid 300 yarder (Mike, correct me if I'm wrong) to clear the crest and get down the hill, not taking any wind into consideration. And although I don't think the extra width is completely offset by the extra yardage (driving difficulty-wise), it definitely helps offset it somewhat. I think it's OK that every once and a while someone who can hit a 300 yard drive be given a large advantage; b/c I don't think that is a huge # of players.
Bottom line, the way I see it now is that the hole is much more playable for all levels, and the changes bring variety to a drive that didn't have much before, i.e. hit it down the tight fairway or else.
Cheers,
George
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John and George,
Yes, there are plans to add another gold (back) tee in the future, adding 30 yards to the hole -- moving back to just behind the current turnaround circle -- while still keeping the existing gold tee for variety. Possibly might shift the other tees over to the left to provide a better chance to the regular golfer of hitting it down the hill -- this is really not an opportunity for them with the original configuration.
The new back tee would demand a really big drive to carry the ridge, and as the right alley rises all the way to the top of the ridge before going over, it will be very difficult for them to get over on that side. The left alley is narrower but has a flatter spot that is about 30 yards shorter to get to, thus allowing the firm turf to release the ball down the hill on the left. An interesting preference of one of the club's better players is that he likes to be on the top of the ridge, hitting a little cut 3-wood at the green versus at the bottom with a shorter club. So I think we are getting a lot more options for every level of golfer and reducing the severity of the drive for the average player and the better player that lays off of the drive, but that forces quite a bit more challenge on the third, as I think the uphill approach from the bowl in the second landing area is difficult for everyone.
Mike
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I am having the same thoughts as John about the changes. I don't think it adds any strategy to the hole. To me, a short hitter, the play off the tee is to the right of the bunkers to achieve a straight look into the green. I can't see a benefit when playing to the left fairway. I may be in the minority on this too, but I think the hole looked much better with the trees. I would have said thin out some of them for some sun, but keep the rest.
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I have to agree with Mike here (surprise!)....
Even if the player crests the ridge, the chance of the ball rolling out to a flat lie at the bottom are very slim. What that leaves the player is a downhill lie to an uphill target from 180 yards or so....not exactly a shot that is easy to control.
So, while the player feels like he has set himself up for a good go at eagle, they walk off with a disappointing par, or more...potentially. And then, it's off to #18.......Remember, you have to look at each hole as part of a whole, not an individual event to assign "easy" or "hard", "good" or "bad". In a match play event especially, the psychological peaks and valleys in a round are influential to the outcome of the match.....and who wants to tee it up on #18 all square, but PO'd at one's self for a missed opportunity the previous hole?..... ;D
Joe
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Did somebodies grandmother do the shaping!
OUCH!.....
That must hurt when you recognize that you're work is being outdone by someone's Grandma...
:)
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I am having the same thoughts as John about the changes. I don't think it adds any strategy to the hole. To me, a short hitter, the play off the tee is to the right of the bunkers to achieve a straight look into the green. I can't see a benefit when playing to the left fairway. I may be in the minority on this too, but I think the hole looked much better with the trees. I would have said thin out some of them for some sun, but keep the rest.
Steven,
We thinned out trees for the last 4-5 years, taking more and more every year -- pretty soon it just looks anemic when you are next to them, although you would still have a tree-lined view from the tee. I appreciate that you preferred the treed look -- that is ok. I think we are progressing with a more consistent look throughout the course and that is more important than an individual hole for me.
Best,
Mike
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I consider myself to be a big hitter and in maybe 6-10 tries have never driven it over the hill. Mostly due to poor shot execution and of course wind. That being said, I will concede that the original hole was a difficult driving hole for a long hitter, mostly because of the constained look and feel of the hole. Now, it's completely different, and I think probably for the better. I also think that the fact that there are now a few different options, to play different shots off the tee left or right, hook or slice, makes it difficult for the better player / long hitter to completely commit to a shot. The uncertainty of knowing whether you've selected the best shot for that day taking into consideration the wind, state of your game, shape you predominately hitting that day is the best.
It's still possible to miss that fairway, because I did the other day. Even though the left side is closed for play, you still felt like you could hit it over there because of a FREE DROP. Instead I elected to cut the ball with the wind, and cut it I did to the top of the hill in the right rough. I did walk over to have a look at the hole from the middle of the left fairway and I must say it's like they found a completely new hole over there.
Also, I think for a guy who wants to hit a hook off the tee, and then play a running hook short of the green up the slope it's an excellent path to take. Then theres the question whether it's an easier approach to the green for the tee shot that sits at the top of the ridge or one to the bottom of the hill. I've never been to the bottom or bottomish with a big drive, but I've been just short several times. I don't mind the shot from the top of hill, which is closer to the same elevation as the green, at all. I would be tempted to say that especially for "big hitters" it may be an easier shot for up top, than it would be from the bottom. That may not be the case in a big wind, but getting your drive over the hill is going to be difficult in a big wind as well.
I ended up hitting a huge hybrid just short of the green and chipping up short of the hole and making a nice putt for birdie after my partner Karl or Jim or was it Craig? drained a monster from the back side wayyyy above the hole for bird. 2 pts. for the good guys. So all in all I like the changes a whole heck of a lot. It's now a hole that is wickedly similar and fits better to the overall set of holes. I think it's a nice transition, from the back side back towards the front. The transition really starts on the 16th in my opinion, and continues that flow back out and into the 18th very well.
All in all it adds variety to a hole that was maybe limited a little bit originally. I don't think that the holes is now an EASY BIRDIE, for any player, save the guys on T.V. But if it gives people some different options off the tee and maybe allows for a shorter player the chance to give the hill and go and maybe reach the green in 2, thats all good. The other factors like turf quality are also an added plus.
I would love to share more of my thoughts and opinions on the course and plan on doing so, but for a guy who's on the clock, I'm out for now.
Nev
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Nev,
You had to bring up the double victory on 17, didn't you?!?!?
Good thoughts on the hole and changes -- thanks.
Mike (the guy who missed his birdie putt for the other team!)
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I'm a HUGE fan of Kingsley, but after seeing the changes on 17, I'm still not sure what the reasons are, other than adding some width.
I can't imagine any functional or strategic purpose to the new left side fairway other than adding width for the sake of removing some penal qualities to the hole.
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I'm a HUGE fan of Kingsley, but after seeing the changes on 17, I'm still not sure what the reasons are, other than adding some width.
I can't imagine any functional or strategic purpose to the new left side fairway other than adding width for the sake of removing some penal qualities to the hole.
Don't you think it blends much better with the rest of the front side holes? Dave is right, as Mike explained it to us in our round that he wanted to transition people from the backside holes (more wooded feel) back more into the front (with the more open feel). I like the changes. The setup from the left side toward the green looks pretty cool.
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Brian,
Yes, I understand the visual transition he wanted to soften, but I'm simply saying that adding width here isn't necessarily adding anything in the way of strategic interest or variability that I can see.
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I took a couple photos last weekend of the grow-in. They said in the clubhouse it had just gotten it's first haircut.
Not really part of the work on 17 but I love the way 16 and 17 come together.
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/IMG_1415.jpg)
From the Tee
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/IMG_1411.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/IMG_1413.jpg)
Nearer the start of the fairway
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/IMG_1416.jpg)
The new bunkers (I think these are both new)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/IMG_1421.jpg)
I just like this one
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/IMG_1424.jpg)
From the top of the hill
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/IMG_1420.jpg)
Bottom of the hill towards the green
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/IMG_1426.jpg)
Bottom of the hill back towards the tee
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/wolterb_bucket/IMG_1428.jpg)
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Sorry if this was answered and I missed it.
When is the left fairway expected to be in and mown to fairway height?
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Sorry if this was answered and I missed it.
When is the left fairway expected to be in and mown to fairway height?
Ralph,
I think Dan will be mowing it down in the fall to get it to fill in, but it won't be as tight as the rest of the course until next year.
Mike
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I'm a HUGE fan of Kingsley, but after seeing the changes on 17, I'm still not sure what the reasons are, other than adding some width.
I can't imagine any functional or strategic purpose to the new left side fairway other than adding width for the sake of removing some penal qualities to the hole.
Mike,
See reply #20 above. This really gives another dimension to the hole by giving the player a shorter option to hit it over the hill. The wider space of the short landing area does make it less penal for the average player, as the original layout was quite narrow for the short hitter and this will be better for them and give them a shot at going over the hill, while still demanding precision to do so.
What are your other thoughts on the course?
Mike
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Mike,
My other thoughts on the course are that it is at least as good as I thought it was when I originally played there about five years ago, and that it is one of the most unique, exhilerating, perplexing, groundbreaking, thought-provoking, opinion-splintering, barometer-of-architectural-taste courses built in the past 50 years.
I also personally believe it is one of the best 15-20 courses built in the past 50 years and there isn't a shot on the course that doesn't require planning, foresight, execution, a bit of good fortune, and an accepting, playful attitude. It also pushes the edge of what's expected as "fair" and a "given" in the modern game, and to me that's where it really shines. When people criticize holes like 9 and 15 I understand where there coming from, although I don't agree. I believe that sometimes turning things on their head is the best way to keep people on their toes.
It's certainly daring and a throwback to a time when the game was more about adventure and matchplay attitude.
I was thrilled at the opportunity to play there again this past week, and happy that others had the chance to experience it as well.
All of that said, I still think you'd rather hear honest criticism than fawning praise so I hope you consider that my comments on 17 are coming from that belief.
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I too felt the criticisms of the course were founded in an attitude I'm not sure I'm all that familiar with, because they're based on one's own game, and, apparently some fundamental formulaic concepts that should be cryit doon.
My feelings were that Greywalls pushed Mike's gca envelope even farther. I loved'em both for different feelings. Having now seen both the Mines and Diamond Springs, too, I'm very impressed with Mike's versatility.
Mike, Were you at all tempted to put a hidden bunker on the leeward side of the left kick plate mound guarding #12, ala another famous 12th? (sorry to hijack)
Also, Will you be toning it down for the Asian market, or hitting'em with an amped up version of your abilities? ;)
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All of that said, I still think you'd rather hear honest criticism than fawning praise so I hope you consider that my comments on 17 are coming from that belief.
Mike,
Absolutely! I thank you for your honesty and forthright attitude -- hearing all aspects is how I learn and what people are thinking. We may not agree completely on something but I would rather debate that with what I was looking at and trying to do than have you say it is great and that is it. Good discussion and dissection can really lead to improving the product.
Sometimes the discussions surrounding golf courses get too bogged down on 1 particular element or hole, without regard for the rest of the golf course or the big picture. I tend to think in sequences of holes and not individual holes -- that can be a hard concept for some golfers, who are looking for the "signature hole" that will blow them away. I would rather have a great series of holes that complement and work really well together instead of one great hole and some filler holes. Of course, I have to think about individual holes also.
Many thanks too for your other comments -- a lot of what you said I take as a high compliment.
Mike
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My feelings were that Greywalls pushed Mike's gca envelope even farther. I loved'em both for different feelings. Having now seen both the Mines and Diamond Springs, too, I'm very impressed with Mike's versatility.
Mike, Were you at all tempted to put a hidden bunker on the leeward side of the left kick plate mound guarding #12, ala another famous 12th? (sorry to hijack)
Also, Will you be toning it down for the Asian market, or hitting'em with an amped up version of your abilities? ;)
Adam,
I would love to hear more of your analysis of my courses after seeing them all -- did you not get to Pilgrim's Run?
Are you referring to the 13th at the Downs in regards to the #12 question? No is the answer.
Tone it down? Pedal to the metal, Buddy!!!! :o ;D Honestly, we have to make it playable but it also should respond to the land and not be simple. The Vietnamese are not yet savvy golfers so we will have to educate them and give them solid golf.
Mike
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Mike, I do mean the 12th. The left side slope that feeds into the green. It reminded me of 12 at The Downs and how well camouflaged that bunker is. But also how the right side of the green front works with the mini sin valley. I did turn back and see that the slopes were significantly different and that it would likely be a difficult proposition to pull off. However, I did feel it would've been WFC and the ultimate homage to the Downs at Kingsley Club. Maybe even blatant stealing? ;D
As for the rest of your work. I haven't really processed it all but my initial instincts are that you build one hell of a medium on which to sport. Thoughtful, fits their environs, fun, heroic, inspirational, rough n' rugged, gentle and elegant. The routing at Greywalls was truly something to feel. A new concept if ever I saw one.
I'm sure I'll have more questions and comments in the future.
P.s. I did only tour Pilgrims and I haven't even left GR and I know it was a mistake not to play. Although, I was shocked at Michigan Golf. Every single course, except for the great ones (Greywalls The Downs and Kingsley), were lush as lush could be. It was disgusting seeing all the un-repaired ball marks, The sprayers. Even poor Angels Crossing is being drowned as we speak. What a pity!
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Never played Kingsley but from the images the 17 th after tree management looks much better. The hole looks claustrophobic in the before photos.
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Mike and/or anyone involved with this project-
Brett Hochstein took some photos of the new bunkers on July 1st and commented that they were close to being painted, cut-in and tamped. Buck Wolter took some photos last weekend of (I presume) the same bunkers that don't seem to have had anything done to them based on the dried out sod edges and weeds in the bunkers.
I'm interested in your process of finishing the edges of these bunkers. Any photos you can continue to post are greatly appreciated. I'd love to come see it firsthand, but I'm halfway across the country.
Scott
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Adam,
I too think you are confusing 12 and 13 at CD.
I used the slope on the left on 12 (at Kingsley) all the time for a pin on the left shelf and a bunker there would make those shots almost impossible.
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Mike, I do mean the 12th. The left side slope that feeds into the green. It reminded me of 12 at The Downs and how well camouflaged that bunker is. But also how the right side of the green front works with the mini sin valley. I did turn back and see that the slopes were significantly different and that it would likely be a difficult proposition to pull off. However, I did feel it would've been WFC and the ultimate homage to the Downs at Kingsley Club. Maybe even blatant stealing? ;D
P.s. I did only tour Pilgrims and I haven't even left GR and I know it was a mistake not to play. Although, I was shocked at Michigan Golf. Every single course, except for the great ones (Greywalls The Downs and Kingsley), were lush as lush could be. It was disgusting seeing all the un-repaired ball marks, The sprayers. Even poor Angels Crossing is being drowned as we speak. What a pity!
Adam,
I understand you mean the 12th at Kingsley with the hillside slope and the "mini-valley-of-sin" as you called it on the right. But aren't you referring to the 13th at the Downs with the front slope bleeding into the green from the front left and the bunker behind it? CD's 12th feeds into the green and falls away but that is more from the right and not with the bunker hidden like you suggest or with the severity of the slope, definitely a more subtle play and hole.
Lushness is a factor of American golf and particularly this year with the cooler temps and more rain in the spring. Unfortunately, most Americans don't really understand or are willing to grasp the concept of dry, firm turf conditions or how a golf course should play versus how it looks. I think we still have a hard time in this country separating what golf should really be and instead golf is viewed as a visual backdrop for a number of landscape scenarios. That is also why serious golfers who love the sport of golf are attracted to those playing fields that are more substance than show -- golfers want a course that presents them with a number of options and variety, not the same old thing every time they play.
Mike
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Mike and/or anyone involved with this project-
Brett Hochstein took some photos of the new bunkers on July 1st and commented that they were close to being painted, cut-in and tamped. Buck Wolter took some photos last weekend of (I presume) the same bunkers that don't seem to have had anything done to them based on the dried out sod edges and weeds in the bunkers.
I'm interested in your process of finishing the edges of these bunkers. Any photos you can continue to post are greatly appreciated. I'd love to come see it firsthand, but I'm halfway across the country.
Scott
Scott,
There is not a need to finish the bunkers until the area is really ready to be played -- the seeded play area is growing in and being mowed down but is not ready yet for fairway height -- so we are letting the sod on the bunker edge root as best as possible. The dried out edges of the sod are going to be cut away in the edging process, when the sod will be cut by hand and the edge of the bunker formed and defined, followed by the bunker sand.
Hope that helps.
Mike
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Mike, I do mean the 12th. The left side slope that feeds into the green. It reminded me of 12 at The Downs and how well camouflaged that bunker is. But also how the right side of the green front works with the mini sin valley. I did turn back and see that the slopes were significantly different and that it would likely be a difficult proposition to pull off. However, I did feel it would've been WFC and the ultimate homage to the Downs at Kingsley Club. Maybe even blatant stealing? ;D
Just wondering why it isn't "stealing" when C.B. MacDonald channels the great holes of the UK, or Raynor follows his lead? "Homage" is definitely a better word.
I saw a lot of Crystal Downs at the Kingsley Club but all derivative. It's pretty obvious that both Mike DeVries and Tom Doak have played a lot of golf at Crystal Downs. Great course, great greens making a mid length course have a whole lot of teeth.
I must have missed the definition of "WFC." ???
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Mike-
Since you're checking in I wondered if you could let us know what the plans are for the knob left of the green on 17. The choice of fairway, rough or native will create very different options in playing this hole especially from the new left side.
Buck
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Mike-
Since you're checking in I wondered if you could let us know what the plans are for the knob left of the green on 17. The choice of fairway, rough or native will create very different options in playing this hole especially from the new left side.
Buck
Buck,
The ridge that is short of the green and left of the bunker at the base of the approach will be long rough, with fairway beyond, similar to its configuration from the past. Of course, the trees are gone, opening up the shot from the left or allowing a cut/fade into the green. The amount of play space to the left of the green will be expanded a bit, with some more fairway cut and regular rough cut in the bowl left of the green -- this will make it easier to find a ball hit there -- the recovery shot will still be hard, as the green basically slopes away from that angle.
Mike
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Mike and/or anyone involved with this project-
Brett Hochstein took some photos of the new bunkers on July 1st and commented that they were close to being painted, cut-in and tamped. Buck Wolter took some photos last weekend of (I presume) the same bunkers that don't seem to have had anything done to them based on the dried out sod edges and weeds in the bunkers.
I'm interested in your process of finishing the edges of these bunkers. Any photos you can continue to post are greatly appreciated. I'd love to come see it firsthand, but I'm halfway across the country.
Scott
Scott,
There is not a need to finish the bunkers until the area is really ready to be played -- the seeded play area is growing in and being mowed down but is not ready yet for fairway height -- so we are letting the sod on the bunker edge root as best as possible. The dried out edges of the sod are going to be cut away in the edging process, when the sod will be cut by hand and the edge of the bunker formed and defined, followed by the bunker sand.
Hope that helps.
Mike
Thanks. Progress reports via pictures are greatly appreciated.
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Yes, It occurred to me today on the road, you were referring to the Downs and I was understanding Kingsley. Either way, I did half expect the blind bunker to be there.
The reality of lush makes me think snobs have got something. Especially when it's snobbery against the mediocre commercial market. ;)
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Thanks. Progress reports via pictures are greatly appreciated.
[/quote]
Scott,
I will try to get photos out when we trim out the edges of the bunkers. Get after me if you don't see anything in 6 weeks!
Mike
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Ok, I thought I would get this thread going again since many more GCAers have seen the course and subsequently have seen the new changes on #17.
During our brief conversation of the changes, it seemed like there were more than a few people who weren't ready to make a difinitive thumbs up or thumbs down. I'd like to hear more opinions on it.
As stated earlier, I've liked the changes all along. Making a hole tie into the course as a whole better and creating more options are never bad things IMO. Unfortunately I never got a chance to play from the left fairway (surprise surprise given my banana slice ball flight), and in hindsight really wish I would have...
When I first saw the changes last summer, I didn't recall there being the big patch of long fescue and rough behind the centerline bunkers and I believe Mike said that was something rather new. I think this works wonderfully b/c now even if you are long enough to carry the middle bunkers, your ball will still get caught in the long rough past them if you go directly over. I think this negates the concerns people had in which the "Nevs" of the world can just stand on the tee and hit gorilla balls anywhere in a 100 yd wide strip and get to the bottom. I don't know how long you would have to hit it from the back tees to get all the way across the new long grass beyond, but I can tell you most guys that can do it are playing on some tour.
After all my rounds there, I'm still not sure if it's better to be up top or down below. If you can manage to get a flat lie (or even uphill magically), I think down below is best...however, the most common lie is a downhill lie to an elevated green 180ish yds away; no easy feat. And then there is the left side which I hope someone else will comment on.
8-10 rounds on this beauty and I still don't know the best play (along with about 10 other holes), how much more can you ask for???
John M., can you post your pic of 17 looking back down the fairway? Any other pics from this past weekend are welcome.
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I enjoyed the 17th. I never had a chance to play it prior to this weekend, but it seemed to me that without the left fairway, the hole would have felt significantly tighter than anything else on the course and felt somewhat out of context. I played it to the top of the hill to the right of the bunkers twice and down to the bottom of the hill once, so I never got to see the hole from the left side of the bunkers. I could not figure out what the strategic advantage would be going to one side versus the other. Perhaps a slightly shorter carry to get to bottom from the left side?
I liked that even if you get the tee shot over the hill, you ran the risk of having an awkward downhill lie at the bottom of the hill for the severly elevated approach shot. The approach from the top of the hill is a welcoming view by comparison, however, the chance to just be hitting a mid-iron and maybe getting decent lie at the bottom would get me to go for clearing the hill every time. Great green - the nasty from left pin on Saturday afternoon put putting off the green significantly into play for any approaches hit above the hole. Fun stuff.
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One of the advantages to the left side is that there are more manageable (less downhill) lies at the bottom. And yes, you can take it over the top with less carry (20-30 yds.) than the right side.
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I didnt get the chance to experience the newer route this weekend, mainly because I never got a drive airborne on that tee, but it seemed to me from walking that there may be a slight increase in distance if you head left, especially way left. How much "longer" is it to take the left route?
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On Sunday, I made it almost to the bottom of the hill taking the left line (the turf is a tad softer on the left than the firmer right side). I was left with a ball slightly above my feet and still a bit downhill. The shot required a draw. The green is guarded by “bunker hill” pinching in from the left, short of the green, and a mixture of tall fescue, wild flowers and assorted vegetables on the right. Not an easy shot, but still only about 215 yards away to the elevated green. The temptation was strong to go for it. But I made a mess of it, hitting into the crap and then pitching back a bit too strong setting up the mandatory 3-putt.
With the added width, green is now in full view and more inviting. For me it now requires more discipline than I possess when considering whether to lay up or go for it. With my short game, I should always keep the green in front of me and play it as a three-shotter. That said, it’s terrific!
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Are there any pin positions (maybe far right front or back) that are more excessible or where one gains an advantage from the left side, whether it be up top or down below?
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I'd like to see the fairways joined beyond the bunkers at the crest of the hill rather than at the bottom. Anyone directly carrying those centerline bunkers should also be rewarded with a turbo boost.
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Dan is correct about the lie and distance required from the tee to reach the bottom on the left route.
The overall distance is not that much more going left versus right (I haven't measured it and not sure if anyone has yet?), especially if you are trying to go to the bottom and have a mid-to-long iron into the green.
Mike is right in that the left is still softer than the right and therefore not quite as much run-out with drive, but the lie is preferable on the left, less downhill, even uphill for super long hitters that go past the drain at the bottom and have a short iron, uphill to the pin.
As to angles to pins, I guess that can depend on your shot shape, but the back right pin wouldn't have to carry the 3 bunkers right of the green like a right angle approach. In general, the green slopes back to front, with the severe drop-off to the front level and back right pin. Also, a left approach will have a better chance of bouncing onto the green if hit short, whereas the right approach is all carry to the green.
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I'd like to see the fairways joined beyond the bunkers at the crest of the hill rather than at the bottom. Anyone directly carrying those centerline bunkers should also be rewarded with a turbo boost.
Bogey,
We had the fairway up higher initially, but the idea that some precision should be demanded of the bombers (as mentioned above) prevailed in the end.
Mike
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Mike:
I have a question about #17. You noted that you want the bombers to have to show at least some accuracy. Did you consider placing a small bunker down at the bottom of the slope on the right side of the fairway where a tee shot played way to the right side of the fairway would roll down into? So that if you played your tee shot too far to the right, it'd roll down into a bunker below? That'd mean that you'd have to hug the centerline bunker off the tee (and not bail too far right off the tee) to avoid having your tee shot roll down into the bunker down below...
It seems to me that left creates its own dillema on the second shot, having to play over the knob. So I think that works. But there is an aweful lot of room in that right side of the fairway, so the long hitter will likely play there. If there was something to think about if he strays too far right (the possibility that his tee shot goes down the hill and into the bunker down below), that might cause more long hitters to be more aggressive in challenging the center line bunker off the tee.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/kingsley/P1030653.jpg)
A less devious method to get the long hitters thinking might be to pinch in the fairway down at the bottom a little, so a ball that clears the hill way on the right side rolls down into the rough, so the player is going for the green in two from a flyer or less certain lie....
I actually had a similar thought. I am sure people would howl over a hidden bunker on the right so other alternatives such as rough ground or even tightening the right side with an additional bunker at the top of the hill would create a bit more risk.
The tee shot reminds me of one on my course where if a player can clear a ridge, it is a pretty straightforward tee ball to a huge fairway. For me - the tee shot is my favorite on the course becuse I need to hit a perfect ball. For someone who hits it a long way, the tee ball is easy - a hybrid or 3 wood to a 50 yard fairway. For a short hitter it is impossible because they bang it into the hill and it rolls back.
17 strikes me the same way. If one can make the carry one gets a 70 yard target (or 2 35 yard targets) and a turbo boost. I like the solution of pinching the target somehow rather than just moving the tee back. Keep the thrill of clearing the hill but force accuracy for those that try the shot.
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Mike:
I have a question about #17. You noted that you want the bombers to have to show at least some accuracy. Did you consider placing a small bunker down at the bottom of the slope on the right side of the fairway where a tee shot played way to the right side of the fairway would roll down into? So that if you played your tee shot too far to the right, it'd roll down into a bunker below? That'd mean that you'd have to hug the centerline bunker off the tee (and not bail too far right off the tee) to avoid having your tee shot roll down into the bunker down below...
It seems to me that left creates its own dillema on the second shot, having to play over the knob. So I think that works. But there is an aweful lot of room in that right side of the fairway, so the long hitter will likely play there. If there was something to think about if he strays too far right (the possibility that his tee shot goes down the hill and into the bunker down below), that might cause more long hitters to be more aggressive in challenging the center line bunker off the tee.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/kingsley/P1030653.jpg)
A less devious method to get the long hitters thinking might be to pinch in the fairway down at the bottom a little, so a ball that clears the hill way on the right side rolls down into the rough, so the player is going for the green in two from a flyer or less certain lie....
I actually had a similar thought. I am sure people would howl over a hidden bunker on the right so other alternatives such as rough ground or even tightening the right side with an additional bunker at the top of the hill would create a bit more risk.
The tee shot reminds me of one on my course where if a player can clear a ridge, it is a pretty straightforward tee ball to a huge fairway. For me - the tee shot is my favorite on the course becuse I need to hit a perfect ball. For someone who hits it a long way, the tee ball is easy - a hybrid or 3 wood to a 50 yard fairway. For a short hitter it is impossible because they bang it into the hill and it rolls back.
17 strikes me the same way. If one can make the carry one gets a 70 yard target (or 2 35 yard targets) and a turbo boost. I like the solution of pinching the target somehow rather than just moving the tee back. Keep the thrill of clearing the hill but force accuracy for those that try the shot.
The upper right is about 35-40 yards wide, depending on where you land the ball. The left side gap is 25-30 yards between the bunkers. I think the middle section of long grass does what you guys are referring to by keeping / forcing the big hitter to think about where his ball is going to finish. As you can see in the photo, the right side on the hill (left as we are viewing it) has been swept in a fair amount, about 6-9 yards from its former position, thus the right avenue is tighter than it was before the expansion. The left avenue gives a better lie at the bottom of the hill although the view is partially blind. I don't think a bunker at the bottom is a good idea -- we have enough bunkers, I don't think it is a good substitute in that situation, and there are issues with maintenance (erosion, water runoff, mowing turning, etc.) to contend with.
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I went to Kingsley this May for a 4 round extravaganza. What a great time.
On all 4 of our rounds, there was a significant (25-30mph) headwind on 17 tee. Mike, is that the prevailing wind? In our 4 rounds, I was the only one to hit down the hill on the drive and I only did it on our first trip around. I came close one other time but the other 3 guys were never all that close. My first ball went just right of the bunker and went all the way to the bottom and stayed happily in the fairway.
My whole group really appreciated the hole just as it is now. If you are on top you have lots and lots of options of how and where to lay up...It is a fun hole. It fits Kingsley Club well. I remember one of my playing partners say "you know, that hole is really cool and different". I agree!
Bart
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Finally had time to figure out how to post pictures, here are the ones I took of #17 on Sunday morning:
View of #17 from in front of the tee
(http://i960.photobucket.com/albums/ae86/stewartgrant/Kingsley17infrontoftee.jpg)
View from the top of the hill
(http://i960.photobucket.com/albums/ae86/stewartgrant/Kingsley17fromtopofhill.jpg)
View of Jason Topp in the bunker short-left of the green. You can just barely see the top of the flagstick.
(http://i960.photobucket.com/albums/ae86/stewartgrant/Kingsley17shortleft.jpg)
Lookback on the 17th
(http://i960.photobucket.com/albums/ae86/stewartgrant/Kingsley17lookback.jpg)
I played Kingsley once before, in 2005. Interesting to see how the 17th went from being the tightest hole on the course to the most wide-open in my opinion.
The first time this weekend that I played the hole (from the Gold tees) I hit a big tee shot and had 170 yards to the centre of the green from a downhill lie to an uphill green. From there I incorrectly chose my 175-180 club (7 iron) which, delofted because of the downhill lie, shot over the green into the fescue behind the green. From there I knocked my chip down the hill and made bogey!! I was ready for a swig of Jameson's after that.
Very enjoyable to play the 17th with the changes that have been made to it. The drive really suits my eye but to hit the green in two requires a savvy approach shot. Like much of the course, I think this hole plays easier once you've experienced it at least a couple of times.
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On all 4 of our rounds, there was a significant (25-30mph) headwind on 17 tee. Mike, is that the prevailing wind?
Bart,
The most common wind (60-65%) would be from the SW, helping on #17 (plays S to N). The next most common would be from the N-NW (30-35%). Both winds can be strong and frequently are 10-25 mph, so a little breeze is uncommon and not really wind. It blows at Crystal Downs and Arcadia Bluffs as the wind howls across Lake Michigan, and Kingsley is inland, away from the lake, but at a higher elevation than the land around it, and combined with the openness, creates windy conditions just a little less mph than CD or AB.
Mike
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View of Jason Topp in the bunker short-left of the green. You can just barely see the top of the flagstick.
(http://i960.photobucket.com/albums/ae86/stewartgrant/Kingsley17shortleft.jpg)
I know that chicken wing swing.
No wonder I skulled it over the green.
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8) jason, i don't remember you in the sand very much on saturday pm.. ::)
Having played the old 17th once for a par, in a boring, trouble avoidance manner (hit 2 wood to top of hill, hit to bottom of green hill, lofted iron on, 2 putt) , I definitely liked the changes seen there last saturday.. primarily the tease of the new width, the choice..
I tried to go left on purpose and ended up in the junk next to the fairway center traps. Looking over the lay of the land, I liked the flatter fairway look to the left.. a hack out of the long stuff and there I was, about 150 or so out, looking up at that hill pinching in from the left and the left front pin.. but a relatively flat lie.. a punched 5 iron hit the front of the green and was seen bouncing up in the air.. I thought it'd be at the back of the green but it ended up about 12 feet below the hole.. a close miss putt and another par on 17..
So a hacker like me can lay claim to two relatively easy pars there, old and new layouts.. but the play is secondary. With all the "apparent width" , the need to route the ball over the hill to the relatively small left or right alleys is enticing.. or does one just lay up and play boring golf.. i guess it depends
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bump.
This is simply to good a thread. Practical application of what we talk about on this site day in and day out.
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Bump - in connection to the discussion going on in the other Kingsley Club thread about #17.
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Looking back toward the hill on 17 this weekend. (Jackson Chen's photo). You can see the grow-in on the right side (left from the tee)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2v9swli.jpg)
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:'(
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The consensus was that very few players were using the left side on purpose. The original tee shot required on that hole was one of the toughest on the golf course. With the double fairway it was one of the easiest. We thought at that point in the round, more should be required of the golfer than to just reach back and rip it, hoping to miss the center bunker complex.
Once we saw JC, aiming for the right side, hit a 60 yard duck snipe land in the left side and make birdie, we knew we had to make a change. ;D
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Dan, thanks for the background on the decision...
I think this is a really interesting development and I am really looking forward to playing it this summer.
I didn't have the opportunity to play the hole as it was originally designed - I have only seen it with the split fairway, centerline bunkers, and trees removed.
While I like the hole, it is probably one of my least favorite on the course and the one where I had to "think" the least - it was usually (hopefully) just a big tee shot aimed just right of the bunkers and catching (again hopefully) the speed slope down the valley...from there it was a pretty difficult uphill approach to the green, but for me the upside in trying to reach the green was far greater than simply laying up to a wedge yardage into the green. For me, the fun really began on the green - that is one difficult green to putt, especially above the hole. It doesn't have some of the wild undulations that others have at Kingsley, but it is certainly one of the more demanding in my opinion...
I think the revised hole will be much more challenging - especially from the back tee. A premium will once again be placed on the accuracy of the drive - especially once the native grass grows in on the left fairway. From the back tee, I think carrying down to the flat is too much for me - so I can actually see the changes taking driver out of my hands on this hole to ensure I hit the fairway. From the top of the ridge, then the challenge will be to play to the right yardage to come into the green on the third shot.
They could make the hole a little easier for me by removing some of the trees up by the sprinkler box on the right hand side of the fairway though...more times than I prefer to remember I have marked the landing spot of my tee shot something like - "4 yards right of the box" or "just short of the box" :)
Having never played the originally hole, I assume this will play easier given all the tree removal - but I think it ill certainly be more demanding then how I have seen it for the past two years. I need to go back to Tim Bert's definitive thread on Kingsley and see if Mike DeVries made any comments on the #17 and his thoughts on its evolution since the course opened.
I am excited to see it in person in two weeks and excited that Dan/Mike and team are continually looking to improve our course...
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Having never played the originally hole, I assume this will play easier given all the tree removal - but I think it ill certainly be more demanding then how I have seen it for the past two years. I need to go back to Tim Bert's definitive thread on Kingsley and see if Mike DeVries made any comments on the #17 and his thoughts on its evolution since the course opened.
Via pg. 22 of Tim’s epic Kingsley thread…
I am really surprised to hear that #17 is really that much more "narrow" than #1. I'm not sure how, but I wonder if the fact that the left half wasn't quite mown down to fairway length distorted the view. I would have bet money it was wider than you said, so thanks for saving me some cash!
Tim,
I was out at Kingsley with Dan Lucas today, looking at the fairway cut and bunker finishing for the left side of the fairway . . . and a correction is in order. From right to left, the right fairway is 40 yards wide at the landing area just short of the ridge, in line with the middle bunkers, then 20 yards of bunkers and rough, then 25 yards to the left bunker. If you go back a little closer to the tee, it is 38 yards of fairway, 20 yards of bunker/rough, then 40-45 yards of fairway, with a complete width of about 105-110 yards between the outer native rough areas. Short of the middle bunkers it is probably 85-90 yards of fairway -- I didn't pace that section.
Down the hill, it is 80-85 yards wide at the bottom and pinching in tighter as you get closer to the bunker short of the approach. I didn't pace the section just short of the bunker, probably about 50 yards wide.
Mike
I'm already on record as being very skeptical of this change, because I feel the long ball hitter gains an enormous advantage with the change. Big boys can just swing for the fences and play it driver, 6-iron, though the approach from the left will still be a tougher angle.
Crafty experienced players like myself will still be stuck short of the bunkers, playing driver, mid-iron, wedge.
There's nothing wrong with a hole that greatly benefits the long player, but both #14 and #15 also do that.
I liked it the way it was before, so I'm counting on Mike DeVries to have made the right call here.
John,
No problem with you being skeptical -- I appreciate your frankness and look forward to your thoughts on it as you play it more and more.
I don't think it will be a big advantage to the bigger hitters, particularly when all the tees, besides the back, are moved to the left and re-aligned with the expanded fairway. The angle from the back tee is narrower for the left side gap and there are bunkers looming over there, so it is not a gimme by any means -- in fact, I think the guys that were hitting it over from the back tee will still be doing so, but they still have to manage their game since it isn't the type of shot where they just bomb it over the top of the ridge (I have never witnessed a ball clearing the bunkers and hitting the downslope of the big hill (not saying it hasn't happened, just isn't common). If that becomes the standard for the big hitters, we also have the opportunity of easily adding another back tee about 25-30 yards behind and to the right of the current tee -- that has been available for when necessary and/or desired. By contrast, shifting the other tees to the left provides better separation with #16 and gives a better choice of the two sides to play for -- this was left out in the construction last year due to time constraints, cost, and impact to play areas. I am very excited about how this has turned out and it will be fun to see how people play it.
As to #14 and #15, I think 14 definitely is a big advantage for the big hitters, but it is not unreachable for average hitters to get there in two if they get it on the right hillside with a running trajectory that bounds the ball down further -- I am not a big hitter by any standard but have made it to the green (or pin high) on several occasions. Also, with the new back tee, the big boys will have to give a little more and the angle is not as receptive for where they are starting, so maybe that will alter it somewhat. On 15, it is really hard, no matter what, and a good recovery game around the green is the important issue. Certainly, if you can bomb it, it helps, but they also have a much narrower slot to hit to, as the balls over the ridge kick right and can be in or blocked by the trees -- at the Opening of the course, a friend in my foursome is long and he complained that he got blocked out by the trees, even though he was in the fairway and hit it 50+ yards past everyone else in the group! >:( Tough luck, Buddy -- next time shape the shot better or play down a club . . . I like it when they have to think a bit, instead of just killing the ball.
Cheers,
Mike
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Thanks Howard...very interesting to see the thoughts and opinions on this hole...especially from Mike and Dan since they know it better than anyone else...
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Although I will hold final judgment until I play the new iteration, I'm just not sure I can get on board with it (not that my opinion has any weight at all!).
The reason I liked the two-fairway version so much is that if you played the proper tee box, you were forced to choose which side of the centerline bunkers you wanted to go. Only the REALLY long hitters (or people playing from a tee box that is too short for them) could just grip it and rip it, knowing that they had the distance to clear the bunkers AND long grass behind the bunkers if they actually hit it straight. The long grass behind the centerline bunkers extending down the slope worked perfectly IMO. From the old back tee, I have the length to get down the hill, but not enough length to clear the bunkers and the long grass, which meant I needed to pick one side or the other. It was easier (shorter) to reach the speed slot on the left, but you wouldn't roll out quite as much and your angle most likely wasn't as good. The addition of the new back back tee meant even the longest hitters would need to make a decision off the tee. Also, I would imagine the different fairways fit people's eyes differently, depending on preferred shot shape, etc. I'm a fan of options (and, admittedly, width) and to me this equals less options.
At the end of the day, the tree clearing was a good thing whether or not there are two fairways or one. Even with one fairway, it will still "feel" like the rest of the course, whereas the original 17th felt out of character.
**I will add that if this was a cost/benefit decision it would be a different argument altogether. I have no idea how much it cost to maintain the second fairway, and if the club didn't think enough players were utilizing it to warrant keeping it as fairway I could understand completely.
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Dan - what will be the mowing pattern behind the old centerline bunkers? Will you keep it as long grass like it is now, or shave it down to fairway to enlarge the landing zone and give a player the option of trying to carry the right/middle of the bunkers?
Thanks!
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Looking back toward the hill on 17 this weekend. (Jackson Chen's photo). You can see the grow-in on the right side (left from the tee)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2v9swli.jpg)
George, in the photo posted by Jud, you can see the new mowing pattern - it looks like they are running the cut line fairly straight from the edge of the old centerline bunkers up to the bunker about 75 yards short of the green - perhaps it gets a little wider toward the green, but where it may widen isn't reachable with the tee ball. It also looks like they are making some changes to the cut line to the right of the fairway down the slop and into the bowl as well.
I think this hole - for me least - will be crossed off the "birdie possibility" list this year and I will be working for pars...
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George
That line coming down the hill will remain the same, but now will be the left native line. From the new back tee there won't be many carrying the hill without a southern gale anyway. From the blue tees there will be some.
We also favor width and options, but in this case our feeling was that there were more players hitting the left side by accident, missing their intended line by 50 yards, than there were CHOOSING the left option and executing their shot. So the option was overbalanced by the lack of penalty for a horribly executed shot.
Chris
There will be less players reaching the green in two, but it is still a par 5 and there will be many birdies there.
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...but in this case our feeling was that there were more players hitting the left side by accident, missing their intended line by 50 yards, than there were CHOOSING the left option and executing their shot. So the option was overbalanced by the lack of penalty for a horribly executed shot.
Jason - now we're all paying for your 50 yard hooks...
;)
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Thanks Dan...you must have have seen me play that hole to come to the "horribly executed shot" conclusion...
Agreed there will be birdies, but for me it will be a lot harder because it is going to really now depend on a very well-executed wedge shot short of the green to - what in my opinion - is a pretty tough green to putt...
I think I am really going to like the change and it will make me think a lot more on each shot - which is what I love most about the club - but I think it will also probably cost me some shots over the course of the season...
I will be up the first week in May to see it - I can't wait...I will report back!
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Definitely will make you think twice about posting a medal score when you're standing on 15 tee even on the day (not that that'll ever happen to me)...
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As part of a birthday weekend in northern Michigan, I was lucky to spend two days with my wife at the Kingsley Club this weekend, As always, the team there was nothing short of fantastic and we had a great time. I played 27 holes on Friday and another 18 this morning before driving home this afternoon. I always enjoy every second on the property...
There are several course changes in the works at the club - the furthest along is the change to cut lines on the 17th hole - I wanted to provide some photos I took this past weekend. Nothing is really new from what we discussed several weeks ago now, but just some new perspectives on the changes.
From the tee box area...
(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/325/tkc17teesm.jpg)
From just right of the old centerline bunkers at the top of the hill...
(http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/748/tkc17fairwaytogreensm.jpg)
From the bottom of the hill in the right hand rough looking back...you can see in this photo that it looks like they are extending the fairway on the right hand side (from the tee) as well a few feet...
(http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/4120/tkc17fairwaysm.jpg)
From behind the green looking back...
(http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/5938/tkc17behindgreensm.jpg)
The hole is certainly more challenging now, especially with the addition of the new back (gold tee). I played both rounds from back there - the first landed in the second fairway bunker right of the fairway and the other on the fairway just inside the left fairway bunkers. I think it is safe to say that carrying down the hill on the tee shot from this tee is out of the question for me unless the hole is playing downwind and I hit an exceptional drive. From this tee, even hitting to the fairway bunkers is a very solid hit and you don't get much roll because the fairway rises all the way to the crest before it before it begins down to the valley.
I think the changes are really good and make the hole much more difficult - before it was simply trying to crush a driver and seeing what happened.
For the first weekend in May, I thought the course was in exceptional shape - a tribute to the mild winter and early spring along with Dan Lucas and his team...
I can't wait to get back - if I can't sneak away between now and June 25th - then my next trip will be the "Hundred Hole Hike"! Six chances in one day to birdie #17...
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I never thought I'd say this, but IMO it's a better hole with the rough. It makes you think more on both your tee shot and second shot instead of simply bashing away.
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Well isn't it pretty obvious that narrowing up a hole will make it tougher?
I understand why they have eliminated the left-hand fairway at the top of the hill, but I don't understand why they have eliminated the wider fairway going DOWN the hill for a player who managed to carry the bunkers from the tee -- especially if they've added a new tee to make that carry longer.
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Well isn't it pretty obvious that narrowing up a hole will make it tougher?
I understand why they have eliminated the left-hand fairway at the top of the hill, but I don't understand why they have eliminated the wider fairway going DOWN the hill for a player who managed to carry the bunkers from the tee -- especially if they've added a new tee to make that carry longer.
Tom,
I believe they are reclaiming some of the rough bottom right as fairway. See light green strip on the right side of fairway.
Looks like just a few yards, but it is to your point.
Not sure in reality if this will allow a long ball carrying the bunkers from the back tees to stay on the fairway at the bottom.
As Chris indicated, not many will be able to carry from the back.
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Tom,
Almost anyone who gets over the hill isn't doing it on the fly. There was a strip of rough beyond the bunkers even when they were mowing the left side as fairway. Here's a look from above at the new mowing lines (upper left of picture):
(http://i45.tinypic.com/2eg8x1w.jpg)
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The only thing I'll really miss about that left side is the visual looking back from the 17th green. I thought the split fairway going down the hill looked really cool. But it doesn't really change the way I approach the hole at all. I can't ever imagine myself purposely going at the old left side, so for my game, the change is more cosmetic than anything, and the additional few yards of fairway on the right that they're mowing in will probably help. So in a sense, the hole is harder because I can't get away with a truly awful hook off the tee, but that's probably a good thing. It's weird (but not unheard of) to have a hole setup such that a routinely poor shot will really punish you, but an extraordinarily awful shot will really help.
Here's a couple more aerial pics. As Chris pointed out, the little strip of light grass on the right side of the fairway (left in the pictures) looks like it's being reclaimed from the rough.
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/K17-1.jpg)
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/K17-2.jpg)
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/k17-3.jpg)
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But why the native behind the bunkers? It doesn't make sense now that there is no left fairway, does it?
Bart ???
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But why the native behind the bunkers? It doesn't make sense now that there is no left fairway, does it?
Bart ???
Bart, maybe Dan can chime in, but it looked to me that while that portion hadn't greened up yet, it looked like they were transitioning it to rough. It didn't appear to be maintained the way the rest of the native grass on the course was maintained, so what you're seeing may not be the finished product, though admittedly it's hard to tell from the pictures. Couldn't say for 100% certainty if that's the idea, though.
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Seems like an awful lot of work to create a 35 yard swath of rough... anything else like that on the rest of the course? Can it be changed to blend with the native (not irrigated) grasses?
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Seems like an awful lot of work to create a 35 yard swath of rough... anything else like that on the rest of the course? Can it be changed to blend with the native (not irrigated) grasses?
Greg,
I believe that is the intent -- to blend it in with the native. That would make sense cost wise and aesthetically.
I don't believe anywhere else on the course will have such a large area of relatively flat (up top before the downhill) area of native.
Looking forward to seeing it grow out this season and next. Could really turn out nice.
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But why the native behind the bunkers? It doesn't make sense now that there is no left fairway, does it?
Bart
Bart - I would agree with you on this, and Tom D. alluded to the same thing above. But I'm sure the club will get it right in the end (whatever "right" is); they have a great track record with that.
Had the privilege of playing the course this weekend on a beautiful and unseasonably hot day. Course was in phenomenal shape, which is no surprise at all. As for the new (new) #17: hit my worst tee shot of the day, pulling the ball 40+ yards offline left, just missing the far left bunker. My ball ended up about half way down the old fairway in the soon-to-be grown out rough. Would have made it all the way down if it was still maintained as fairway. Maybe the club has a point about terrible shots not getting punished properly :o ;)
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Well isn't it pretty obvious that narrowing up a hole will make it tougher?
I understand why they have eliminated the left-hand fairway at the top of the hill, but I don't understand why they have eliminated the wider fairway going DOWN the hill for a player who managed to carry the bunkers from the tee -- especially if they've added a new tee to make that carry longer.
Totally agree. Everything seems all for not with the exception of opening up views and the feeling of speciousness. Strategically, a big blunder in my opinion. If the there was fairway just beyond the bunkers and the new swath was made native, the hole would seem to have more options and risk/reward factor.
Cheers
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Will,
Can you carry the bunkers from the new back tee? Not sure of the number, but I'd guess it's a 275 yard carry. Also, although it may not look it in the aerial photo, that right fairway is pretty darn wide to begin with...
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Will,
Can you carry the bunkers from the new back tee? Not sure of the number, but I'd guess it's a 275 yard carry. Also, although it may not look it in the aerial photo, that right fairway is pretty darn wide to begin with...
Jud,
I've never played Kingsley but on a good day - with a bit of tailwind or no wind at all - at that carry I'd certainly give it a go particularly if there was an advantage. Again, not sure if there is not having been on the property. But, it just seems the width created by the clearing out was a waste but for the "feeling" of spaciousness - not that it hasn't been an improvement. I just don't see any strategic gain.
Cheers
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There is certainly an advantage to getting over the hill as you can get an extra 100 yards roll. As stated previously, most everyone gets to the hill on one or two hops rather than on the fly. There's no better advantage to carrying the bunkers than clearing the already wide fairway on the right except perhaps a slightly better angle of approach if you're getting home in two depending on pin position. As for the clearing, it's still an advantage for the higher handicap to be able to play out of the rough/native rather than take a lost ball in the woods, not to mention a much better vista.
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There is certainly an advantage to getting over the hill as you can get an extra 100 yards roll. As stated previously, most everyone gets to the hill on one or two hops rather than on the fly. There's no better advantage to carrying the bunkers than clearing the already wide fairway on the right except perhaps a slightly better angle of approach if you're getting home in two depending on pin position. As for the clearing, it's still an advantage for the higher handicap to be able to play out of the rough/native rather than take a lost ball in the woods, not to mention a much better vista.
Certainly agree with your last two points which may be the only improvements ultimately made? Shouldn't flying those bunkers be rewarded with a bit of extra width which, in turn, would result in the additional propulsion of my golf ball down the hill possibly to the upslope - I am sure I am exaggerating the extra roll here but, my point is that carrying the bunkers should result in advantage rather than just getting caught up in the rough on a downslope! Thoughts?
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You may have a point. When I actually see someone carry the bunkers on the fly from the tips I'll make the suggestion... ;)
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Jud,
I've never played Kingsley but on a good day - with a bit of tailwind or no wind at all - at that carry I'd certainly give it a go particularly if there was an advantage. Again, not sure if there is not having been on the property. But, it just seems the width created by the clearing out was a waste but for the "feeling" of spaciousness - not that it hasn't been an improvement. I just don't see any strategic gain.
Cheers
Will - hard to call it a "waste" seeing that the original impetus for creating the width was to dramatically alter the hole and its playing characteristics, for the better. After a couple years with the new version, the club decided they didn't like the tradeoff in risk vs reward (and probably additional cost) with the new width/second fairway. Now they’re attempting to correct it.
Couple things:
- The tree clearing originally done to accommodate the new width has dramatically improved the hole in my opinion, with or without actually having the second fairway. The first iteration of the hole was very cramped and to me didn’t fit the “feel” of the course at all. This has been corrected.
- While I really liked the added width/second fairway, the hole is still very good without it. I would add however that I agree with Tom and Bart re: the grass behind the bunkers. That native grass behind the centerline (now left side) bunkers was 100% needed when the hole was presented with two fairway routes. Otherwise long players would literally have had +100 yards of width to hit their drives as long as they could get over the bunker complex.
Now that the left fairway is gone, I do think the hole would be improved if some portion or all of the native behind that bunker complex was taken to fairway length. I like the idea of having the benefit of added width if a golfer can make a certain carry (not on every hole of course, but it works well here). If playing the appropriate tees, that carry should be right at the limit of the golfer’s ability and creates a great risk/reward tee shot. If you didn’t want to challenge the hill, you could always hit something other than driver off the tee to the wide section of fairway short of the drop off.
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You may have a point. When I actually see someone carry the bunkers on the fly from the tips I'll make the suggestion... ;)
Jud,
I have to get up there to demonstrate! ;D It may be that they are waiting for the new rough to grow in before cutting the old native?
Cheers
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Jud,
I've never played Kingsley but on a good day - with a bit of tailwind or no wind at all - at that carry I'd certainly give it a go particularly if there was an advantage. Again, not sure if there is not having been on the property. But, it just seems the width created by the clearing out was a waste but for the "feeling" of spaciousness - not that it hasn't been an improvement. I just don't see any strategic gain.
Cheers
Will - hard to call it a "waste" seeing that the original impetus for creating the width was to dramatically alter the hole and its playing characteristics, for the better. After a couple years with the new version, the club decided they didn't like the tradeoff in risk vs reward (and probably additional cost) with the new width/second fairway. Now they’re attempting to correct it.
Couple things:
- The tree clearing originally done to accommodate the new width has dramatically improved the hole in my opinion, with or without actually having the second fairway. The first iteration of the hole was very cramped and to me didn’t fit the “feel” of the course at all. This has been corrected.
- While I really liked the added width/second fairway, the hole is still very good without it. I would add however that I agree with Tom and Bart re: the grass behind the bunkers. That native grass behind the centerline (now left side) bunkers was 100% needed when the hole was presented with two fairway routes. Otherwise long players would literally have had +100 yards of width to hit their drives as long as they could get over the bunker complex.
Now that the left fairway is gone, I do think the hole would be improved if some portion or all of the native behind that bunker complex was taken to fairway length. I like the idea of having the benefit of added width if a golfer can make a certain carry (not on every hole of course, but it works well here). If playing the appropriate tees, that carry should be right at the limit of the golfer’s ability and creates a great risk/reward tee shot. If you didn’t want to challenge the hill, you could always hit something other than driver off the tee to the wide section of fairway short of the drop off.
George,
Waste is obviously a strong term - and I agreed that the feeling of space is an improvement especially as the rest of the course seemed very open (through pics as I've never been fortunate enough to play Kingsley). Still, as I said before, strategically, nothing seems to have been gained other than making the miss left more friendly. As I've also said, IF I can carry those left - "centerline" - bunkers, shouldn't I be rewarded rather than caught up in the rough on a downslope!?
Cheers
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You may have a point. When I actually see someone carry the bunkers on the fly from the tips I'll make the suggestion... ;)
Jud,
I have to get up there to demonstrate! ;D
Come on up! Nothing more enjoyable than watching strong players take bigger numbers on par 3's than on par 5's anyway... ;)
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You may have a point. When I actually see someone carry the bunkers on the fly from the tips I'll make the suggestion... ;)
Jud - not sure that is the point. Someone will ALWAYS be able to make the carry from the tips.
I think if you're playing the right set of tees for the hole, you should be able to get over the hill with a very well struck tee shot, no matter what that distance is. Getting down the hill might be the most fun aspect of the hole. Providing a little extra width behind the bunker complex for someone who really takes an aggressive swing is a good thing IMO.
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OK! let's give 'em at least 1 growing season to sort things out!
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OK! let's give 'em at least 1 growing season to sort things out!
Agree 100%
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Good discussion on this hole...I think the evolution of this hole is really interesting and I am looking forward to seeing the native grasses growing in and seeing what the club ultimately determines the cut lines to be.
I went to Google Earth today to try and measure the distance from the new back tee to the top of the hill - Jud estimated 275 yards to carry the bunkers in his post and it felt like a lot more to me. The other thing to note about this carry distance is that the fairway leading to the downslope rises virtually all the way to very top of the hill before the slope actually begins - while the course generally plays firm and fast, I would estimate that the majority of balls that have carried down the slope have hit fairly close to the crest of the hill to catch the slope.
Interestingly enough, the image on Google Earth was just shot on April 4th, 2012 - therefore you can see the new cut lines very clearly...
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5294/17kingsley040412.jpg)
The yellow line is placed approximately in the middle of the new back tee and ends at what I estimated to be the crest of the hill - this is just a rough guess based on the position of the left bunkers and the change in coloration of the grass. According to Google Earth, the distance is 302 yards.
I played the 17th three times one weekend last month and failed to come close to carrying down the hill all three times - there was a little breeze into the face and air temperatures were only in the 60s - but I would put my chances under ideal conditions at less than 5% from back there. Previously, I used to hit driver with reckless abandon from the old back tee (with the left fairway) ten times out of ten and probably carry down the slope 8 or 9 times out of ten and be in the fairway - granted the old fairway at its widest was 93 yards according to Google Earth.
Certainly much more difficult and for most players will require a delicate third shot with some sort of wedge to a fairly challenging green - especially with a front position...
On June 25th, I will (hopefully) get six tee shots on this hole as part of the Hundred Hole Hike - I will let you know how I do!
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I really liked the left side and will miss it I'm fairly certain. I have only made it over the hill to the left :'(
I'll be interested to find out from Mike D why they didn't keep the left fairway and let the right grow-in. I think it would create more interest off the tee and a much tougher second if you did get it over the hill.
Buck
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I'll be interested to find out from Mike D why they didn't keep the left fairway and let the right grow-in. I think it would create more interest off the tee and a much tougher second if you did get it over the hill.
Buck - I must say that thought never crossed my mind. Very interesting though...
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The carry from the old back tee was 285. The new one adds 30 or so, making it 310 plus now. The long carry player is already benefited by not having to worry about the right side bunker complex. Also the slope of that hill carries the ball left so anything carrying over the bunkers will be going farther left. How much extra width do you feel is fair for a player who can hit it that far? The mowed grass at the crest of the hill is about 55 yards wide.
The rough behind the bunkers has always been native. When the fairway grasses grow up and blend it will look a lot better.
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Dan,
Thanks for the clarification, and great work as usual. By the way, how the hell do you mow that hill? By hand? I don't know that I've ever seen it done...
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Dan,
Thanks for the clarification, and great work as usual. By the way, how the hell do you mow that hill? By hand? I don't know that I've ever seen it done...
Dan uses hand shears. They go well with his 4-wood
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The carry from the old back tee was 285. The new one adds 30 or so, making it 310 plus now. The long carry player is already benefited by not having to worry about the right side bunker complex. Also the slope of that hill carries the ball left so anything carrying over the bunkers will be going farther left. How much extra width do you feel is fair for a player who can hit it that far? The mowed grass at the crest of the hill is about 55 yards wide.
The rough behind the bunkers has always been native. When the fairway grasses grow up and blend it will look a lot better.
Dan - you've seen my game, you know I need all the width I can get!
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JC
My grass shears have persimmon handles. 8)
George
Yes, I've seen your game. We all need all the width we can get, but you're no JC Jones. ;D
Jud
Our 4x4 fairway mowers handle it fairly well. That was the first place Mike took me to on my first visit to the property. He asked if I could mow that hill. I said yes, so the routing was complete.
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With the new changes, #17 certainly doesn't look like the 4th easiest hole on the course. Will it continue to play as the 15 handicap hole?
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There are enough Kingsley threads in the archives that I don't think this necessitates a new one, but I was up for the Spring Outing this weekend and thought I'd post a few pics of the new tees that are being built on the 4th hole. They sit to the west of the current tees, between the sixth green and the current fourth tee box for the blue and gold tees. I should note that the course is in absolutely phenomenal shape right now.
Aerial view of the fourth hole. Dan Lucas just provided this to me, so I've updated the post with his much more accurate picture. According to Dan, these may be available for play some time in the fall (maybe in time for the Mashie?).
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Kingsley%204th/4newtees_zpsfe6740d1.jpg)
A look at the new teeing areas from the sixth green.
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Kingsley%204th/IMG_0880_zps66e15197.jpg)
From the front of the current fourth tees. You can see the front teeing area, along with the new mowing pattern extending the fairway back on the new angle.
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Kingsley%204th/IMG_0877_zps8c249d27.jpg)
New front and middle tees
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Kingsley%204th/IMG_0876_zpsf53dfe42.jpg)\\
Another look from what I think is the new part of the fourth fairway. I think the new back tee will be tucked into the trees on the left of the picture, but maybe Dan Lucas can shed more light on that.
(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/wseitz26/Kingsley%204th/IMG_0875_zpse833fc26.jpg)
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Bill
That is the new back tee, top left of your pic. Your google earth snapshot does not go far enough back. From google earth, since all the deciduous trees are leafless, you can see the hemlock tree (shown in your last pic) that sits immediately left of the new back tee 50 yards or so back into the block of trees that are behind your drawn-in back tee.
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Dan, I meant to ask you on Saturday but it must have slipped my mind. What's the expected time frame for the new tees? I'm assuming the beginning of next season?
And you're right on the aerial view. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's a little notch that you can see just before that red line starts, which is where you had started clearing trees last year. I believe that's the proper angle though, correct?
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Bill
Email me (kcsuptdfl@yahoo.com) and I'll send you my scribbled up google earth pic to post.
Dan