Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mark Bourgeois on February 12, 2007, 11:47:34 PM
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First consider these comments:
"A masterpiece of links golf architecture" -- Peugeot Golf Guide
"Royal County Down without the mountains" -- The Times Guide
"Perhaps the most varied and surprising of all the English links" -- The Sunday Telegraph Golf Course Guide to Britain and Ireland
"Surely there can nowhere be anything appreciably better than the golf to be had at this truly divine spot" -- Bernard Darwin
"One of the most difficult courses to play in the world in par figures" -- Tom Doak
"As a 'clutch' of short holes I would back them against any course in the world" -- Patric Dickinson
"My golfing daydreams revolve most frequently around Rye" -- Donald Steel
Now consider these experts:
Golf Magazine: unranked
Golf Digest: 90th, courses outside the United States
The Times Guide to Golf (its Top 50 British Isles section): unranked
The World's Top 500 Holes: unmentioned
1001 Holes You Must Play Before You Die: unmentioned (perhaps confirming those who play here have died and gone to heaven)
The World Atlas of Golf: unmentioned
Top100GolfCourses.co.uk: unranked, world list; 50th in British Isles list
Can someone explain the position of the second group? There must be a logical reason why I can’t get this course out of my head….To paraphrase Nathan Thurm, it’s me, right?
Or is this one of those rare courses that refuse the easy sketch, the drive-through, tick-the-box round, parceling out her secrets and charms by teaspoon? AKA, the "unratable" course? The conclusion formed slowly, slowly, after successive rounds, but inexorably and suddenly: the revelation of genius!
(Wouldn’t it be great if more courses fit that description? Why aren’t there more? Perhaps the experts among us can say whether coincidence explains why three courses that do fit that description – in my humble, uneducated opinion – took years if not decades to build: The Old Course, Pinehurst #2, and Rye.)
This is a course with no yardage plates, either on sprinkler heads (no sprinklers!) or in fairways. Nor poles, posts, or bushes. Virtually nothing in the way of framing, other than a few sticks here and there either to aid blind shots or identify the last known coordinates of an errant ball. Nothing to give the golfer the easy assay.
This is the most cerebral course, isn’t it? Yet I accept that on a summer or calm day, someone playing through might not see the need to pause for thought.
Or is it not held in higher regard because Mike Weir came 10 yards short of driving the 437-yard 16th? (It should go without saying he played in High Summer.)
If so, the saddest fate of all must be reserved for the golfer who is too good to know the challenges of Rye.
A few pictures...
Approach to 1st, with the defining feature of the course running along the right
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020221.jpg)
Approach to 3rd, showing a typical difficulty: "eyebrow" sleepers, dead ground, and elevated or false-front greens, when combined with devilish crosswinds, make for one challenging ground game -- ball on the right is dead
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020232.jpg)
4th, from the tee
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020233.jpg)
Approach to the 4th
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020236.jpg)
5th green
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020240.jpg)
Second half of the 6th, over the dune
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020245.jpg)
6th green, another difficult approach, whether by ground or by air
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020247.jpg)
7th, with eyebrow sleepers and a front bunker the horrors of which can be only imagined from the picture; demonstrating vastly superior wisdom, before the bunker bottom was raised, ladies used to declare tee shots into it unplayable at once
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020250.jpg)
7th green
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020253.jpg)
8th green
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020257.jpg)
9th
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020260.jpg)
Looking back to 9th tee: "average" ground...
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020263.jpg)
Approach to 9th
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020265.jpg)
Approach to 10 -- another dead ground / false front challenge
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020270.jpg)
Approach to 11
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020280.jpg)
12th: another interminable par 4...
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020283.jpg)
13th: the Sea Hole. Hit over the first dune, left of the ball-deflecting pipeline running dead-smack across the LZ
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020290.jpg)
The fantastic 15th
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020299.jpg)
Approach to 15
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020304.jpg)
Approach to 16
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020311.jpg)
18th. Fortunately the clubhouse windows are made of bulletproof glass
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020330.jpg)
18th green
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rye/L1020333.jpg)
Mark
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Maybe Rye only gets the raters who prefer ultra lush conditions. If I had anything to do with ranking, I would have it ahead of a slew of more famous UK courses. A few years ago I began a post stating that St. Anne's had the best par 3's in the British Iles. I was wrong--it has the second best--though Woodhall Spa can give St. Anne's good competition. Rye might have the best 3's anywhere. CPC and Sleepy Hollow are strong contenders. The 4th has to be among the elite par 4's in the world--Golf Magazine was asleep on this one. The solution is better raters seeing the course.
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Maybe it is too unique for its own good.
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Fantastic pictures Mark, if you can't hang around courses at dawn like Aidan Bradley, then winter sun is the best thing fro revealing contour.
Colt as Secretary learnt his trade there and tinkered over a number of years. Called back in the 1920's, because an increase in motor traffic meant that the road alongside was becoming problematic, Colt said the course was perfect already. His proposed solution was to move the road.
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I'm sure it has been covered here before, but what is the logic behind the sleepers / planks embedded in the ground near the greens?
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Thanks for the trip back, Mark.
What time of year were the pics. taken?
Par 68 certainly has to be its liability in the rankings game.
I like Donald Steel's remark.
Tiger Bernhardt from GCA.com totes a Rye headcover.
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There must be a logical reason why I can’t get this course out of my head….
Mark
Someone once said "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" ;)
Thanks for the pics - I love Rye - it's one of the quirkiest links courses I've played. #4 & #7 are classics and they dont build holes like #13 anymore.
At least Golf World has it close to GB&I Top50 (personally I think it's much higher than that) - Golf Monthly cant even list it within it's Top120. ???
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#7 has to be one of the most difficult par-3's, yard per yard, you will ever play.
#9 one of the most fun short 4's on the planet
#16 green a superb Colt green to sit all afternoon and be inspired by.
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Shane,
The purpose of the short sleepers is to:
1. Take away the shot most golfers would prefer -- Texas wedge; and
2. Induce golfers to hit a most difficult shot: flip wedge off tight links lies.
Or as Donald Steel put it in describing the eyebrow sleepers to the right of the green on the short 14th: they lead the golfer to overcorrect and "become entangled with" (great phrase) the dunes on the other side of the green.
Thomas Brown, if people are judging this on its par I presume it's their lack of interest in par 3s and not a faulty assumption that a par 68 is easy: par 68, SSS 71. More par 3s make par more difficult for the low handicapper than a course with four par 5s, no?
Pictures were taken early Feb.
Kevin, there is blindness there but not necessarily more than you'd find on an old course.
Here's another question: how much of this "quirk" is down to playing with no yardage indicators? (Interestingly, there is a yardage book available in the pro shop, but its accuracy has been known to be off. And with so few obvious / apparent natural or manmade markers on the course, I have to question its effectiveness.)
Mark
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Colt as Secretary learnt his trade there and tinkered over a number of years. Called back in the 1920's, because an increase in motor traffic meant that the road alongside was becoming problematic, Colt said the course was perfect already. His proposed solution was to move the road.
That's a great tidbit, Tony - thanks.
I have to learn more about Colt. How often does anyone, in any profession, who's been called in to consult say "leave it just the way it is"?
Thanks for the pictures, Mark. The more you look at it the prettier it is.
Peter
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Mark, I can't tell you why Rye wasn't in World Atlas when it first appeared because I didn't have anything to do with the book until the 1990s. As for the Times Guide it didn't get selected for the Top 50 because it didn't accept visitors other than members' guests, which is also why Swinley Forest and Loch Lomond were not featured. Also, as this was a book for golfers of all kinds and interests, the editors felt it important to spread the style of courses so that the Belfry and Slaley Hall were there. You may object to them architecturally, but for many a club golfer these places provide them with a memorable day out - photos taken in front of the 18th lake at the Belfry and all that sort of thing. Slaley was still then on the tour roster. We did put in St Enodoc, West Sussex, Southerness which were not particularly well known to non-GCA types. There has to be a balance of this kind, too, with World Atlas. If the editor's bosses ask why the K-club isn't there when it's a regular tour stop and Ryder Cup venue they will not listen to the argument that it's not great architecture. Their reply will be that they have to sell the book to Joe Public and they want the book to contain the things they see on TV. At the last edition we were able to get rid of a number of dubious entries and get in places such as Sand Hills, Crystal Downs, Bethpage Black and Pacific Dunes, and to upgrade Prairie Dunes, Riviera and others to main entries. It's an ongoing process, but new editions are driven not by golf architecture but by a brief from a distributor, which is why a number of courses you may not approve of, such as Oak Hill and Inverness are in there. Before my time NGLA and Ganton were both expunged. They are now back in. However, a recent thread on here was quite critical of Ganton and I bet many of you would prefer to see St Enodoc in there. Unfortunately many big time events have taken place at Ganton, none at St Enodoc. There are no heroic shots by big names to share with readers. We did have a good clear out last time and got rid of quite a lot of dross from the gazetteer in particular. However, there is always the danger of getting things out of proportion.
Last time there was an update to World Atlas I started a thread on GCA which produced much debate on what should be removed, what included for the first time etc. There is not, so far as I know, any update planned in the near future. However, to provoke debate these are the English entries in the gazetteer section as at present. Which course would you expunge to make way for Rye? Little Aston, Formby, Southport and Ainsdale, Saunton East, Burnham and Berrow, Royal Cinque Ports, Berkshire Red, Hunstanton, Walton Heath Old, Wentworth West, Royal Worlington, Royal West Norfolk, Notts, Woburn Marquess, Alwoodley, Swinley Forest. In the main section the English Courses are: R Liverpool, R Lytham, Sunningdale Old, R Birkdale, Woodhall Spa, R St George's, Ganton. For a variety of reasons you can only replace within the same country. You can't take out Cerromar Beach (still there) and replace it with Rye. Have fun!
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Mark,
Wonderful pictures. Having only played Rye in the warmer months I can see why it's touted as a winter course. What was the temp when you were there? 40s?
I think 2 factors contribute to the paradox - Rye's exclusivity (maybe that's changing) and the fact that it is purely a match play course. There are so many holes where an unlucky bounce can turn a 4 or 5 into an 8 or 9 that a visitor is left with "too quirky" or "unfair" in his head.
The course also tends to be a bit of dust bowl in the summer. Dirt fairways don't leave a good impression after a visitor has jumped through hoops to get on the course.
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I played Royal St. George's and Rye on the samd day. I think I would prefer to go back to Rye before RSG. It is an awesome use of land and one of the toughest courses I know.
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I could look at your photos - and Donald Steel's in his book - all day long, thanks for sharing them.
Has to be one of the coolest names, too.
Isn't there a famous quote about the second shots on the par 3s?
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Great pics, Mark. Brings back great memories. The course is a bit more polished and less rough and ready than 25 years ago,m but that's true about just about every links course, alas....
George
That quote ("The hardest shot at ______ is the 2nd shot to the __________(name of a par 3 here)") has been made about many holes at many courses. I'd be interested if anybody knows the first citation and for which course.
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Rich,
Is this one of those Magnus Magnussen type test questions?
I have only read the statement in reference to Rye; I have not read it anywhere else.
If I recollect, Patric Dickinson references it, but I can't recall whether Darwin does in "Courses of the British Isles."
Also, regarding the loss of "rough and ready," there remains no automated / extensive irrigation system, so while some of it surely is down to modern agronomy, a lot of what you see must derive from that winter's weather. Also, plus-fours and plus-twos remain the fashion of the day, and given the absence of many "modern" effects on the course, do not feel much out of place. (For what it's worth, in my stay I saw zero equipment and maintenance staff.)
Mark R., I knew I was hitting you with a bit of a cheap shot re the "top" 50 reference. My apologies. In my defense, you made it on both sides of the ledger! Re TWAOG, I refuse to be drawn into that lion's den! But it at least deserves a place in the back, not simply for the architecture but for its role in hosting the President's Putter, if as some say it represents the last untainted celebration of the amateur ideal in golf.
Craig, I definitely can see how a summer visit - Ran mentions this - could lead one to experience a different course, and that would color one's opinion negatively. The match play comment is appropriate, but as to exclusivity, do you mean not enough people see it? Surely exclusivity does not hurt other courses with similar reputations...or does it?
But I wonder also whether it's one of those courses you need to play a few times, when it's playing as intended (not summer). It seems like there are so many decisions to make as one nears the green that the right decision may only become apparent in retrospect, or for those of us dim to such things, after repeated play. Thoughts?
The weather was mid / upper 40s and sunny, with a chill 10-15 mph wind out of the Northeast. (You know: you end up wearing too many layers; despite being able to see your breath, the sun warms you.) Several days were delayed by frost, and ice could be seen in the hollows, but on the whole about as benign as it gets out there, I suspect.
Tommy, Golf Magazine puts RSG at #32 in the world list. Food for thought, and not simply for Rye's place in the golfing world...
Mark
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No, Mark--I do not know the answer this time. I heard it first re: the 2nd at Dornoch, in 1981, the same year I played Rye. The members at the latter never mentioend it. Hmmmmm....... I've heard it about a number of other links par-3's, even on this site, but I can't remember which holes or courses now. That's why I'm asking if anybody knows the truth, if there be such.
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Rich:
I believe Mark is correct that the quote about the second shots to the par-3's at Rye was in Patric Dickinson's book which was written in the 1950's ... that goes pretty far back. It wasn't presented as Dickinson's own idea but something that had often been said of the course. I'll look it up tomorrow, if only for the excuse of opening that great book again.
But, Mark, I think you know the quote doesn't go back to Darwin, and it wouldn't have applied to Rye then because only a couple of today's short holes existed back then. Today's fifth existed (back then it was the eighth), but today's seventh didn't appear until the 1930's.
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My lord, that looks unbelievable.
I'm left to wonder; with all of the completely manufactured courses created from nothing, ala Shadow Creek, Whistling Straits, Kingsbarns, et.al., I wonder if any architect/owner combination would ever have the imagination and collective cuyones to ever attempt anything like that from scratch.
Could any earthmoving-driven effort ever envision such diversity in ground movement, in utter preposterousness, in such clearly unforgiving, unyielding, defiantly daunting targets that just beg to be challenged?
As talented as we've become with shaping the earth, I have a difficult time believing that such an audacious goal could ever be achieved.
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Thanks, Tom. Look forward to hearing what you find.
My (oral history, once removed) source regarding the 2nd at Dornoch was Eric Brown, which puts me in the 50's if not 40's.
Mark
I don't do forensics, except from memory. See above--that's as good as it is going to get from me on this issue.
Rich
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Rye is another of those old English clubs with a blue blooded membership that keeps a low profile. Of course raters play there but I'm sure they do not send out lavish invitations and fawn on them. Now Rye have opened the door to visitors will they end up following Royal St Georges and Deal and offer 4 balls on certain days of the week? Golfing groups do not want to play foursomes whilst paying top dollar.
For me at 68 Rye is the toughest par in the UK. I glad we seem to agree #4 is a classic and a serious omission from several books on great holes.
Tommy - Where did you lunch?? Such a long drive surely means you missed the great RSG lunch and the buttered eggs and ham at Rye. Next time play RSG and RCP on the same day, they are a $10 taxi ride apart and you can then get seriously into the Kummel.
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Last time there was an update to World Atlas I started a thread on GCA which produced much debate on what should be removed, what included for the first time etc. There is not, so far as I know, any update planned in the near future. However, to provoke debate these are the English entries in the gazetteer section as at present. Which course would you expunge to make way for Rye? Little Aston, Formby, Southport and Ainsdale, Saunton East, Burnham and Berrow, Royal Cinque Ports, Berkshire Red, Hunstanton, Walton Heath Old, Wentworth West, Royal Worlington, Royal West Norfolk, Notts, Woburn Marquess, Alwoodley, Swinley Forest. In the main section the English Courses are: R Liverpool, R Lytham, Sunningdale Old, R Birkdale, Woodhall Spa, R St George's, Ganton. For a variety of reasons you can only replace within the same country. You can't take out Cerromar Beach (still there) and replace it with Rye. Have fun!
Personally, I would take out Little Aston and Southport & Ainsdale. These would / should be replaced by Rye and St. Enodoc. That would leave a pretty formidable list.
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Rich:
I believe Mark is correct that the quote about the second shots to the par-3's at Rye was in Patric Dickinson's book which was written in the 1950's ... that goes pretty far back. It wasn't presented as Dickinson's own idea but something that had often been said of the course. I'll look it up tomorrow, if only for the excuse of opening that great book again.
Tom & Rich
I've recently bought Dickinson's book (on the recommendation of several on here) and have just skimmed throught the Rye chapter. Sadly I can find no reference to the quote about the second shot at the par threes. Dickinson's advice is to ensure you are always past the pin.
Looks like its back to the drawing board for the source of the quote! I'd always associated it with the second shot to the second at Dornoch but I've no idea whether that's the original or a copy.
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Craig, I definitely can see how a summer visit - Ran mentions this - could lead one to experience a different course, and that would color one's opinion negatively. The match play comment is appropriate, but as to exclusivity, do you mean not enough people see it? Surely exclusivity does not hurt other courses with similar reputations...or does it?
But I wonder also whether it's one of those courses you need to play a few times, when it's playing as intended (not summer). It seems like there are so many decisions to make as one nears the green that the right decision may only become apparent in retrospect, or for those of us dim to such things, after repeated play. Thoughts?
The weather was mid / upper 40s and sunny, with a chill 10-15 mph wind out of the Northeast. (You know: you end up wearing too many layers; despite being able to see your breath, the sun warms you.) Several days were delayed by frost, and ice could be seen in the hollows, but on the whole about as benign as it gets out there, I suspect.
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Mark
Rye was always open to visitors but in small numbers and only following a letter of introduction sent weeks in advance. I've been there several times - when the course was virtually empty - and phone-in requests for play were turned down. Even at RSG it's possible for a respectable golfer to arrange play on the day of the visit. I suspect the restricted access has had an influence on Rye's ranking. Add the par 68 to that and some may wonder what the fuss is all about.
I've played Rye maybe 30 or 40 times and I'm still relatively clueless around the greens. But I've found that true for all the links down in that area. Wind speed and direction influence the short game more than I'm accustomed to here in the States so I always feel like I'm playing each shot for the first time.
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Must have changed since 1981 when I just walked on, or maybe that was because of me.... :o
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Mark
Am I still next to Margaret Thatcher on that board?
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Craig, that's right. Rye's visitor policy has not changed; you have to write in advance.
Mark
I run a wine tasting / drinking evening for my cricket club every November. For this purpose I go over to France just before to buy wine at significantly lower prices than in the UK. Last year I played at Royal St. Georges on the way at their winter rate.
A few questions:
- Should I be playing RSG, Rye, or Deal this year?
- I assume I would need to actually write to the secretary at Rye rather than just call or send an e-mail.
- Is their a winter rate at Rye (and RCP) - there isn't one mentioned on the website and I'm not sure it would be the done thing to ask.
Note I only have time for one round so can't combine two courses.
Ed
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Mark - you sure got lucky with the weather down there. I have played Rye twice but the course was not looking like that! Severe rain and wind - not together - I think obscured the course's full charms. More fool me - can't wait to go back.
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Re "second shots," I searched the USGA's online library and couldn't find any references to the comment at all, Rye or otherwise.
Mark
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Mark
I googled and the first hit was my "Home Course" piece on GCA about Dornoch. It must be true. :o
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Sorry Rich but you didn't hold the crown for long before a new challenger came along.
"an ardent admirer once contended that the hardest aspect of Rye is the second shots at the short holes."
Donald Steel Classic Golf Links. 1992.
Any earlier mention in print (he doesn't say when the ardent admirer uttered the phrase)?
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Tony (and Mark)
As I said above, I have absolutely no idea who made the comment 1st or when and in reference to which hole and/or course. What I do know is:
1. I was first told of the "hardest shot is the 2nd to the 2nd" concept in 1981. (BTW, doesn't "the 2nd to the 2nd" have a much more mellifluous and seductive ring to it than "the second shots at the short holes"....?)
2. It was told to me then by Euan Currie, legendary barkeep and godfather to my first child, who attributed it to Eric Brown, legendary Scottish golfer and winning Ryder Cup Captain (1957) during a visit to Dornoch by Eric at which he paraded the Ryder Cup itself at the Burghfield House Hotel.
Keep searching, ye of little faith...... :)
Rich
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I have found reference to the "second to the second" phrase, but more significantly have found the "second shots on the short holes" reference in a John Hopkins' piece in The Times last month:
"Bernard Darwin, a former golf correspondent of The Times, wrote that the most difficult shots in the sport are the second shots to the short holes at Rye."
Rich, care to take on Bernardo?
Mark
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Mark
1. Euan Currie is still alive and well. Ask him--he's the primary source.
2. I never said anything about all of Dornoch's short holes. Just the 2nd. Read before you speaketh, Master Bourgeois... :(
3. To be a bit serious--if Donald Steel is your (or Tony's) "primary" source, that is pretty secondary, at least to me. My guess is that he snaffled it from Brown or more likely Currie, as he was a fairly frequent visitor to Dornoch. (I don't think that Eric Brown was ever invited to play in the President's Putter...... ;))
Hang in there, Buckaroo!
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Good inferences and references to transmogrification. You are doing well, Grasshopper....
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Rich and Tony,
Donald Steel says he doesn't know the author but the phrase has been said of Rye for as many years as he has been going there. That would be 50 years...
This would imply that the Dornoch phrase in fact derives from the Rye phrase.
Mark
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Mark
Have you been in touch with the Donald? If so, I'll take his and your word fur the noo, even though the 2nd at Dornoch predates any of the par-3's at Rye.....
Thanks
Rich
PS--since Eric Brown's comment was made in 1957, and probably formulated several years earlier, why does the fact that the Donald thinks that he has heard it about Rye for about 50 years "trump" Brown?
Dig deeper, my friend, if you want to convince me!
R
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Rich,
Yes I did get in touch with Donald Steel.
My goal is not to reverse the opinion of Rich Goodale, a fool's errand, at least for my lesser intellect!
I play to the court of international golf opinion. If someone can produce the Bernard Darwin primary source, I will rest my case.
Mark
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Rich,
Yes I did get in touch with Donald Steel.
My goal is not to reverse the opinion of Rich Goodale, a fool's errand, at least for my lesser intellect!
I play to the court of international golf opinion. If someone can produce the Bernard Darwin primary source, I will rest my case.
Mark
I think its Darwin on Rye too.
If it's not Dickinson, Steel can't remember, Goodale's trying to claim for a course that even in the 70s Allen thought was designed by MacKenzie, you have to go back to Bernardo. I have very little Darwin but having checked the indexes of Golf Courses 1910 and Golf Between The Wars I can't find it. I may have read it in Green Memories but my copy is an American edition without an index so I can't check.
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Didn't Finegan attibute that to Tom Watson re Dornoch.
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Stan, I've come across that reference to Watson dating back I think to 1981; however, Rich's sourcing looks stronger, no?
Andy, please keep checking!
All: Donald Steel has been in touch again. He says he wouldn't bet on Bernardo being the source and, in checking, notes that he used the Rye phrase in the World Encyclopedia of Golf, published 1975.
Mark
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Finnegan is wrong. Watson was there in 1981 (I followed him around) and probably learned it from one of the locals. Can't believe Peter Allen was so ignorant re Dornoch and MacKenzie. The good doctor never even visited there; nor did Bernardo. Ah, the English....... :o
I'll stick with my solid 2nd-hand oral history reference to Eric Brown c. 1957 until I hear better.
As a final note, I don't remember any of the par-3s at Rye as having anywhere near the peril and terror (second shot-wise)of the 2nd at Dornoch, but I only played two rounds there, and it was a long time ago...... :'(
Oh yeah, Mark, next time you talk to Donald ask him to ask his former colleague, Tom MacKenzie. Tom is a Dornoch boy and might know more thean either of us.
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Rich,
Yes I did get in touch with Donald Steel.
Mark
I've said it before but this place is better than being in Annie Hall!
Shell International Encyclopaedia of Golf 1975 ed. Donald Steel.
"It is often said that the most important shots at Rye are the second shots at the short holes."
Honestly, I go away for few days and squabbling breaks out. Incidentally I believe young MacKenzie opened the door for me on Friday, wearing a Dornoch sweater, at a course far from either of the above. If either of you had had the presence of mind to call me about this we could have settled the matter there and then.
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After looking at the photos, I like the analogy with RCD without mountains..
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Craig,
Please do post more.
Are the grass faces / flat bottoms on the bunkers the original style?
What was MacKenzie's involvement?
It looks very green; were these pics taken in summer and how does the course play at different times of year?
Lastly, can you repost these photos in a separate thread so they don't get buried in this thread?
Thanks,
Mark
Most of the bunkers have shrunk to some extent. I have an old photo of MacKenzie's #8 just after it opened; I'll post it later. The shrinkage was unintentional and just evolved over time.
The pictures were taken in June. The course is usually a browner shade but except for a couple holes that are built on very shallow topsoil the turf is terrific throughout the year. The super would not like these pics; he likes to keep the grass on the edge of death. The course always plays firm although I've heard that in the winter the rains leave it soggy in spots. The greens are always perfect, much like Rye, and I can barely remember seeing a ball mark on them.
MacKenzie gave the club a long list of recommendations in the mid-1920s. The club implemented some very soon (#8 and #17, e.g.), some took 70 years.
I'll try moving the photos to a separate thread; if it disappears from here, you'll know it worked.
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I GREATLY enjoyed Rye last year with Golf Course Architect Martin Ebert, and Editor of Golf Architecture Magazine, Adam Lawrence.
I think that 2 questions posed in this thread are entirely linked- being "Why is the course so revered by so many respected writers (particularly historically), but receives little official recognition today?"
and "just what are those submerged boards that fringe some of the greens, eg 2nd and 7th?"
To my eye, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that the predominantly buried timber boards are actually rail road ties of old bunker faces. I believe that there are several other great links courses where bunkers have been filled in over the years, but in some instances the tops of the boards continue to show through.
I challenged Martin on this prior to the round, and i'm not sure he was convinced, but as i played the course and imagined these funny litte timber brows, as the faces of steep, deep, claustrophic pot bunkers, i could see just what an intimidating challenge Rye once would have been. To my eye, almost all of them fringed little depressions, and even followed the contours of the old bunker shapes.
Regardless of long lost hazards, I still greatly enjoyed the course for what it is now, but wish someone would have a serious look at reinstating some of those bunkers.
Martin, Adam and I had a wonderfully tranquil dusk to see both the original, and Martin's very good works on their second course. After an eye opening morning round at the unheralded Royal Cinque Ports (where i nearly fell over in the carpark when i was introduced as 'Tasmanian' and the Member advised he had greatly enjoyed his round at Barnbougle Dunes!), i couldn't have asked for a better day on England's South East links.
Greg Ramsay
www.rathogolf.com
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Greg,
A quick check of the club's history turned up this about the 14th hole. Recall the right side of this par 3 contains sleepers.
Sometime in the 1930s, Sir Guy Campbell was called upon to change the 14th. According to Frank Arnold, the greenkeeper at the time, Sir Guy "suggested putting in small sleepers to make the players lift the ball from the hollow. We went on and completed the green as it is today."
If true for the other greens with such sleepers, then they are original and not bunker remnants.
Mark
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Mark
Yes I agree with you, the small sleeper walls are all in locations so as to force a player to play over them with a lofted chip rather than a trundle with a 6 iron or a putter. Guy Campbell was the originator. They have even since introduced the idea at adjacent Littlestone. I have written an article on Rye's eyebrows that will go in this year's issue of Golf Architecture magazine.
Sorry Gregory, a very romantic notion but sadly not true. Wouldn't have done a great job of filling in the old bunkers if they left the tops of the sleepers sticking out! You are surely not suggesting our English brethren are that incompetent?! ;)
cheers Neil