Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mac Plumart on July 03, 2010, 08:49:22 PM
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I've just returned from a
golf trip to Ohio visit to see family in Ohio. While on this wonderful family trip, I had the opportunity to stop in and see a few great golf courses.
The first was The Golf Club. I won't go on and on about it as I am sure we all know how great it is. But I will say this, it was as good as it gets. 500 acres, 18 holes, only golf. WOW!!! Here is a shot from behind the 553 yard par 5 17th. A cape hole I suppose you'd call it.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/TheGolfClub17.jpg)
But the real eye opener for me was playing Canterbury. I knew it was going to be good, but after playing it I think it just might be the most under appreciated golf course I have ever seen. It is ranked only by Golfweek and even then only 79th on the classic list. The course is Herbert Strong's with work recently being done by Renaissiance Design/Bruce Hepner (I believe). The course is on a 146 acre piece of property but yet it has plenty of room as the routing is brilliant. People talk about 16, 17, and 18...and those are mind-bottling holes. But it seems like every single hole was excellent. Here are pictures of 2, 11, and 16. And frankly, the 585 yard par 5 16th is one of the best holes I've ever seen.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Canterbury2.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Canterbury11.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Canterbury16.jpg)
Also, the turf at Canterbury is the best turf I've ever played off of. It reminded me a bit of NGLA's turf, but seemed just a bit more crisp to strike the ball off of. I wish I had more knowledge on turf types and could compare and contrast with an educated background...but all I know is that it is a bent/poa mix...as the greens are. But I do know this, it is a pure joy to play golf on that turf.
I have some questions.
Are all Strong courses this good? If so, what are some other must plays of his?
What is he known for? Routing? Subtle undulations on greens? Brutual stretches of holes (like 16-18) and the occasional breather stretches?
I guess what I am looking for in more scoop on Strong. I was unbelievably impressed with Canterbury and I am seeking to learn more about it and Strong.
PS...does anyone know where my mind-bottling line comes from or do I just look like an idiot?
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1. Welcome to the northeast (almost...)
2. Do you mean mind-boggling? We can put your mind in a bottle after you pass.
3. Ohio is an amazing state for golf, both public and private.
4. Congrats on those two plays. Columbus to Cleveland, huh? Great part of the state.
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Ron...
Ohio seems amazing for golf. Maybe I need to move back.
Mind-bottling, you know when things are so crazy (great), you get your thoughts trapped, like in a bottle.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/chaz.jpg)
Anyway, it is from Blades of Glory...a stupid movie that I think is funny.
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Ahh, now I understand...Well, then, capture the dream! How's the underground golf scene these days?
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Mac,
I am jealous, and sorry that I was in Michigan while you were here. I even drove by your old stomping grounds just a few short hours ago: Bowling Green!
Lets coordinate soon!
Rich
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Richard...
we've been trying to hook up for payment on that Tiger/Augusta bet for awhile. As we discussed prior, this would have been perfect...but the timing keeps getting messed up.
I owe you some good golf...I'll pay up when we can get our schedules sync'd.
I look forward to it!
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Great title.
Anthony
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Mac,
Mind boggling it is but mind bottling conveys even more of the same excitement and as the English language is continually evolving you can consider yourself as having added to the lexicon.
Colin
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Digging around on this site I found some good Strong information. Here are some links if anyone is as interested as I am...
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43532.0/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43532.0/)
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43509.0/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43509.0/)
http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/canterbury (http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/canterbury)
And this from Ian Andrew's site...
http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2007/05/architect-21-herbert-strong.html (http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2007/05/architect-21-herbert-strong.html)
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Hey Mac,
I haven't been on here for a few days and I missed this thread.
Canterbury is tons of fun to play. There isn't a ton of land for the course, but the routing is pretty good all things considered. #12 is probably the worst hole out there. It looks like they just needed a hole to fill.
#4 is my favorite hole. The dogleg left where the ground slopes to the right from the approach shot in. At least missing it right leaves a reasonable chance for recovery. Lots of options involved on that hole.
#17 is an awesome par 3 to along with #16 and #18. Any photos? It's very old school championship looking.
And yes, if someone can find me better turf than Canterbury, I'd like to see it. The fringes are better than most places greens.
Any more photos of The Golf Club? I would love to see more as there aren't many around.
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Jonathan...
I'll post some more Golf Club pics later tonight.
I put up all the Canterbury ones I took. 2, 11, and 16. 16 was one of the best holes I've ever played.
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Mac
I just played in the MG at The Golf Club last month - it is quite the total golf experience. Glad you were able to experience it. I love the 5-9 stretch on that course. I also love how the course "feel" changes from more open hole stretches from 2-4 and 13-14 & 17 to more woodland holes stretches.
Ohio and columbus is particular is loaded with great golf courses.
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Mac,
When I played The Golf Club a few years ago they allowed me to take photos on the condition that I not post them online. I would guess that's still their preference. I don't think posting one is a big deal, but I think I'd ask before posting more.
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Andy...Ok. No one told me that, but I'll hold off on posting those photos here.
Fred...it was indeed an experience. My favorite golfing experience. And I agree the change in "feel" is dramatic and special. 13 was my favorite hole. Very cool risk/reward.
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Mac,
They may have changed their minds on that. I had a similar request this year at Peachtree which I think came from someone posting a photo thread which I think was later removed. I did notice that there's an old photo thread in the archives on TGC and also some photos on Ran's profile...so who knows.
Edit:
Ok so I feel hypocritical for saying they don't want photos of the course shown and then linking to the thread of pictures. Its in the archives if anyone really wants to see them...
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Andy...I'll hold off. The Golf Club and the people I encountered there were first class in every way, shape, and form and I don't want to do anything to disrespect them. And you are right, Ran has photos up on this site if people want to check it out...and now you've posted that link. No worries.
EDIT...Andy, your edit is just plain funny!!
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Mac -
The 13th is a great hole. I am sure you noticed, but I am always facinated that the pond to the left of the 13th green actually sits above the green. I am no geologist but apparently the entire course sits on a clay base and the water doesn't seep out of the ponds which allowed Dye to have the pond there. I love that feature on that hole.
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Fred...I did notice...kind of weird looking UP at the water.
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Mac,
When I played The Golf Club a few years ago they allowed me to take photos on the condition that I not post them online. I would guess that's still their preference. I don't think posting one is a big deal, but I think I'd ask before posting more.
Dork
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Ohio does indeed have great private courses, but it's over all public venue is pretty slim. Every contiguous state has far better publics, except possibly West Virginia. Indiana exceeds it muchly, and of course Michigan is in a class of it's own. I live in Ohio, but try to golf elsewhere. If you have access, which I think many of you do, Ohio is good. If not it is mediocre.
Sad.
Doug
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Ohio does indeed have great private courses, but it's over all public venue is pretty slim. Every contiguous state has far better publics, except possibly West Virginia. Indiana exceeds it muchly, and of course Michigan is in a class of it's own. I live in Ohio, but try to golf elsewhere. If you have access, which I think many of you do, Ohio is good. If not it is mediocre.
Sad.
Doug
Doug,
Surely, you jest with saying West Virginia has better public golf than Ohio - come on??? ::) ??? The problem with your view of Ohio is you must be using golfweek's best public course list!!! ;D
Chris
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Ohio does indeed have great private courses, but it's over all public venue is pretty slim. Every contiguous state has far better publics, except possibly West Virginia. Indiana exceeds it muchly, and of course Michigan is in a class of it's own. I live in Ohio, but try to golf elsewhere. If you have access, which I think many of you do, Ohio is good. If not it is mediocre.
Sad.
Doug
Which state next door has better public courses?
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Chris;
I said every state EXCEPT possibly WV.
Tom;
Try Michigan, which has better publics overall than perhaps ANY state in the nation, at least I doubt any other has the depth. Indiana has far more quality publics than Ohio. I assert that Kentucky is better at the top.
Ohio is very weak on public courses, for a state of it's population. I wish it were otherwise. OTOH, they are overstuffed with great private courses, as has been pointed out on many threads here.
I play public courses, and have played most of the top in OH, IN, KY and many great ones in MI. I try to play out of Ohio. With the cost of driving making a serious dent in my sad budget, I would obviously stay near if I could.
Of course, all this is my own opinion. Take it for what that is worth.
Doug
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Mac:
When you were in the state of Ohio, did you perchance get a glimpse of Tom MacWood or his Ivory Tower?
I ask because he is such a regular presence on this website but so few seem to have actually ever seen him. I am beginning to wonder if perhaps he is actually Pat Mucci who uses the name as a ploy or prank simply because Patrick likes to argue----actually belay that---Patrick loves to argue but to know him is to love him.
I know of what I speak, because when I was a little boy I had two personalities. One was called "Good Tom" and the other was called "Bad Tom" and frankly I never took full responsibility for either of them. ;)
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Tom Paul, does Tom MacWood asking "Which state next door has better public courses?" truly merit your standard passive-aggressive response? Is there any chance you could confine your baiting to Mid-Atlantic threads?
Doug, how have you found the PA publics compare with Ohio?
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But the real eye opener for me was playing Canterbury. I knew it was going to be good, but after playing it I think it just might be the most under appreciated golf course I have ever seen. It is ranked only by Golfweek and even then only 79th on the classic list. The course is Herbert Strong's with work recently being done by Renaissiance Design/Bruce Hepner (I believe). The course is on a 146 acre piece of property but yet it has plenty of room as the routing is brilliant. People talk about 16, 17, and 18...and those are mind-bottling holes. But it seems like every single hole was excellent. Here are pictures of 2, 11, and 16. And frankly, the 585 yard par 5 16th is one of the best holes I've ever seen.
Also, the turf at Canterbury is the best turf I've ever played off of. It reminded me a bit of NGLA's turf, but seemed just a bit more crisp to strike the ball off of. I wish I had more knowledge on turf types and could compare and contrast with an educated background...but all I know is that it is a bent/poa mix...as the greens are. But I do know this, it is a pure joy to play golf on that turf.
I have some questions.
Are all Strong courses this good? If so, what are some other must plays of his?
What is he known for? Routing? Subtle undulations on greens? Brutual stretches of holes (like 16-18) and the occasional breather stretches?
I guess what I am looking for in more scoop on Strong. I was unbelievably impressed with Canterbury and I am seeking to learn more about it and Strong.
Mac,
As a member at Canterbury, I freely admit I am biased towards my home course but keep in mind that I didn't grow up in the area and I ended up joining there because I was so impressed after seeing the course in person. I couldn't agree with you more about the conditioning and the quality of the turf, especially in the fairways. Ed Smith just replaced his long time mentor, Terry Bonar and people have been thrilled with how Ed has continued the tradition of excellence that Terry had built over the past 40 years.
The genius of Canterbury is the routing, which given the constraints of the property is something that I appreciate more every time I play it. Everyone tends to focus on the closing holes given their difficulty but the stretch from 1-5 are the ones that jump out at me. #5 is my personal favorite with its serpentine fairway and wonderful green complex. Canterbury reminds me a lot of Winged Foot West in that you really do have to play it a few times to understand it well. It also is very playable for the higher handicap player... there is very little OB, almost no water and most of the greens are open in front.
I have toyed with the notion of holding a GCA gathering there if there was enough interest. The club is focused on raising the awareness of the course given the work that was done for the Senior PGA by Bruce Hepner. It also has a wonderful history having hosted all five of the Pro/Senior majors that travel (US Open, US Am, Senior Open, Senior PGA, PGA as well as the Western Open and Senior TPC) along with Oak Hill. It's champions include Bill Campbell, Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, Walter Hagen and Lawson Little amongst others.
The record of Herbert Strong is one that I have started working on but it has been difficult to make progress since much of his work has been changed by other architects and he only built 20-30 courses. More to come on that in the future but I think the more recognition Strong gets, the better it will be for his courses which are mostly overlooked in the national rankings.
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Chris;
I said every state EXCEPT possibly WV.
Tom;
Try Michigan, which has better publics overall than perhaps ANY state in the nation, at least I doubt any other has the depth. Indiana has far more quality publics than Ohio. I assert that Kentucky is better at the top.
Ohio is very weak on public courses, for a state of it's population. I wish it were otherwise. OTOH, they are overstuffed with great private courses, as has been pointed out on many threads here.
I play public courses, and have played most of the top in OH, IN, KY and many great ones in MI. I try to play out of Ohio. With the cost of driving making a serious dent in my sad budget, I would obviously stay near if I could.
Of course, all this is my own opinion. Take it for what that is worth.
Doug
That is a strong statement. Have you played a lot of public courses in Ohio, and what are the cream of the crop?
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Ron...
Ohio seems amazing for golf. Maybe I need to move back.
Mind-bottling, you know when things are so crazy (great), you get your thoughts trapped, like in a bottle.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/chaz.jpg)
Anyway, it is from Blades of Glory...a stupid movie that I think is funny.
Big fan of Blades, and I feel like most in the younger crowd on here should get the reference.
"The night is a very dark time for me."
"The night's dark for everyone moron."
"No, not for Alaskans, and dudes with night vision goggles."
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Tom;
I would probably go with The Quarry, Black Diamond, Stonelick Hills, Fowlers Mill, Shaker Run. I am not very impressed by anything public around Columbus, ironically since most of the great privates seem to be there.
These I do not compare with such luminaries as Sultan's Run, The Fort, Rock Hollow, Coyote Crossing, Trophy Club etc from IN; Eagle Ridge, Hidden Cove, Old Silo, Dale Hollow, Wasioto Winds, Stonecrest from KY; and courses beyond count in MI.
To be fair, others will see it different. Still, I think measured against playing populations, I do think I can make a fair case that Ohio needs some of you guys from this site here building 1st class publics.
Doug
PS: Damned if I did not forget about PA as a bordering state of Ohio *bonk self*. I have not played there so cannot compare.
PS. PS. Boy, I wish I lived in Michigan.
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What public courses around Columbus are you not impressed with?
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PS: Damned if I did not forget about PA as a bordering state of Ohio *bonk self*. I have not played there so cannot compare.
Yeah, that old geography thing can be a real pain in the behind. :)
PS. PS. Boy, I wish I lived in Michigan.
I think many of us do - well, three months of the year.
How about Eaglesticks, Foxfire, Sleepy Hollow and Avalon? Haven't played them, but I've seen those get pretty good press here.
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PS: Damned if I did not forget about PA as a bordering state of Ohio *bonk self*. I have not played there so cannot compare.
Easy to forgive living in the SW corner of Ohio. I forget it borders until I have to visit in-laws in east-central PA. I'm fairly certain the only course I've played in PA is Hershey CC East, so I can't comment on PA publics either.
Your list of top Ohio publics is hard to argue against. I leave out Longaberger myself like you have. It seems to be a polarizing course for those around here. While I think it's very good, I hardly think it's the best public in Ohio. Not enough interesting holes given the scale of the property.
I'll throw out Boulder Creek around Cleveland. Another owner/architect built course much like Stonelick Hills in Cincinnati. While I didn't find the par 5s very engaging (save #6 which for me is the best hole on the course), the rest of the course was pretty good. I like how the architect teases you with the island green par 3 at 17 as early as hole 2.
How about Eaglesticks, Foxfire, Sleepy Hollow and Avalon? Haven't played them, but I've seen those get pretty good press here.
Eaglesticks is an interesting study on how to fit a course on a tight property. For me, hole 11 is one of the great public holes in the state. I don't think it's on the top tier of courses mentioned by Doug earlier and I certainly don't think it's one of the top 100 public courses in America (as GD had rated it many moons ago). That being said, I would place it in the second tier of top Ohio publics.
Foxfire (Player's Club) I tend to rate higher than others. I like the mix of holes, opening up around hole 4, then getting tight 14-16 for three stern holes. Houses are apparent on those open holes, but don't really get in the way. I think it's one of the more underrated courses in the state, but then again, I rate it higher than others might.
I have not played Sleepy Hollow or Avalon, although those more Cleveland/NE Ohio than Columbus. I also like Cooks Creek to the south of C-bus. I've been meaning to do a 36 hole day at Bent Tree and Northstar, but I can't find the time to do it :)
Ultimately I'm in Doug's camp. While Ohio's private courses are very top tier, the publics lag behind compared to what you find in KY and IN.
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Chris;
I said every state EXCEPT possibly WV.
Tom;
Try Michigan, which has better publics overall than perhaps ANY state in the nation, at least I doubt any other has the depth. Indiana has far more quality publics than Ohio. I assert that Kentucky is better at the top.
Ohio is very weak on public courses, for a state of it's population. I wish it were otherwise. OTOH, they are overstuffed with great private courses, as has been pointed out on many threads here.
I play public courses, and have played most of the top in OH, IN, KY and many great ones in MI. I try to play out of Ohio. With the cost of driving making a serious dent in my sad budget, I would obviously stay near if I could.
Of course, all this is my own opinion. Take it for what that is worth.
Doug
Please Doug,
Your statement is a bs way of saying I haven't given enough thought to it, but if I do, I am sure that WV is better as well. I have played almost all of the very good public gc's in WV and it is not all of that. I was calling out you saying " . . . possibly WV." And since you decided to give me Indiana, Michigan, . . . I feel confident that WV is not better than Ohio public golf.
Chris
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These I do not compare with such luminaries as Sultan's Run, The Fort, Rock Hollow, Coyote Crossing, Trophy Club etc from IN; Eagle Ridge, Hidden Cove, Old Silo, Dale Hollow, Wasioto Winds, Stonecrest from KY; and courses beyond count in MI.
I'm a HUGE fan of Hale Irwin signature courses as well! ;)
Chris
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Since I have not provided my favorite Ohio public courses, I will provide a few:
Sleepy Hollow GC S.Thompson
Manakiki GC D. Ross
Hinkely Hills GC H. Paddock
Pine Hills GC H. Paddock
Shale Creek GC B. Huntley
The Quarry GC B. Huntley
Elks GC Portsmouth D.Ross
The Harbor Club B. Way
Squaw Creek GC S. Thompson / B. Silva (?)
Little Mountain GC Dr. M. Hurdzan,
Black Diamond GC B. Serrafin
Fire Ridge GC R. Cutlip
Castle Shannon GC
Blackmoor GC J. Robinson
Blue Heron GC J. Robinson
Tam O'Shanter GC - Dales L. Macomber
Auman Timbers GC J. Robinson
Oak Shadows GC J. Robinson
Deer Ridge GC B. Huntley
Hawthorn Valley CC D. Ross
Aurora GC B.Way
Firestone Farms B.Huntley
Turkanna Farms J. Robinson
Windy Knoll GC B. Huntley
Tree Links GC C. Kurtz
Liberty Hills GC N. Cambell / B. Serafin
Salt Fork State Park GC J. Kidwell
Lost Nation GC H. Allison
Stonelick Hills GC J. Osterfield
Grey Hawk GC R. Von Haggue
Kennsington GC B. Huntley
I think that is good for now, are all of these curses good to great no, but I could great a very solid top 15 from that list. I only wish Tilly had a public course to play in Ohio . . . I digress.
Chris
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Chris & Criss;
I am glad you brought up Foxfire. That one is certainly close to making the list I gave. After 4 or 5 ho hum holes to start, it really came alive.
In WV, I have played exactly 4 publics. The Raven, Stonewall SP, Twisted Gun, and Brier Patch. The Raven was very good, Stonewall [Palmer] overrated, Twisted Gun unique site, and Brier patch a most pleasant surprise at that low price. Still, not enough to rate a comparison to OH, IN, KY, or certainly MI.
I am sorry, but I found the Ross Elks at Portsmouth not that good at all. And Blue Heron I thought many of the holes had one theme [miss the canyons].
On my 'to play' list for Ohio would certainly be Auman Timbers, River Greens, and Blackmoor among others. I must add Boulder Creek, having recently seen Criss's Oink of it.
Maybe both of you could give me preferences for Indiana. I have heard a great review of 'Glendarin Hills' recently, of which I was not even aware. Have either of you playing it? It is NE corner, near Cobblestone.
Doug
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Chris & Criss;
I am glad you brought up Foxfire. That one is certainly close to making the list I gave. After 4 or 5 ho hum holes to start, it really came alive.
In WV, I have played exactly 4 publics. The Raven, Stonewall SP, Twisted Gun, and Brier Patch. The Raven was very good, Stonewall [Palmer] overrated, Twisted Gun unique site, and Brier patch a most pleasant surprise at that low price. Still, not enough to rate a comparison to OH, IN, KY, or certainly MI.
I am sorry, but I found the Ross Elks at Portsmouth not that good at all. And Blue Heron I thought many of the holes had one theme [miss the canyons].
On my 'to play' list for Ohio would certainly be Auman Timbers, River Greens, and Blackmoor among others. I must add Boulder Creek, having recently seen Criss's Oink of it.
Maybe both of you could give me preferences for Indiana. I have heard a great review of 'Glendarin Hills' recently, of which I was not even aware. Have either of you playing it? It is NE corner, near Cobblestone.
Doug
Doug,
I have friends that have played Glendarin Hills and said it was OK, but not worth the $70 fee peak season. I know in the fall they offer a twilight rate of $45 dollars and for what they have described that seems more reasonable. I would recommend Lake James GC of Zolner GC at Tri-State University for reasonable priced golf on decent land.
Chris
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Geoffrey...
I agree with everything you say about Canterbury...and I don't think you are presenting a biased opinion...just an accurate one.
Also, you said; "I have toyed with the notion of holding a GCA gathering there if there was enough interest." The interest would/should be through the roof. I'd be there with bells on!!
Chris/Doug and others...great lists. Thanks for sharing!
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That is a good list. I'd add Ridgewood in Cleveland (S.Alves), Mill Creek in Youngstown (D.Ross) and Champions (Strong/RTJ). Champions is one of the best courses in Columbus, public or private.
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That is a good list. I'd add Ridgewood in Cleveland (S.Alves), Mill Creek in Youngstown (D.Ross) and Champions (Strong/RTJ). Champions is one of the best courses in Columbus, public or private.
I have played all 5 of those courses and agree that they should be on the list. I remember playing Champions a couple years ago. Great recommendation and a very very good public course.
Chris
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I would add Hawthorne Valley Golf Club a Ross course that is now open to the public. I have lived all over the country and I feel Ohio has great public courses and even better private courses. Some areas in the country do have better, but not many.
Chris
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I would add Hawthorne Valley Golf Club a Ross course that is now open to the public. I have lived all over the country and I feel Ohio has great public courses and even better private courses. Some areas in the country do have better, but not many.
Chris
I have Hawthorne Valley CC in Solon, OH on the list - a recent private course to allow public play.
http://hawthornevalleycc.com/
Thanks,
Chris
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Geoffrey Walsh
I had the pleasure of playing your course for the first time last summer and I really enjoyed the course. What I did find strange was the driving range, there is very little room there for woods (which I have noticed with other clubs in Cleveland). What I remember more than anything was the finishing holes and the turf. What do members think of the 15th hole there? That is one hole that seemed out of place to me.
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Champions is a good course, EASILY the best public course within the 270 loop.
In SW Ohio Shaker Run gets publicity but I prefer Weatherwax, and I also like Walden Ponds which has too much housing and a couple of stinker holes, but a lot of good ones.