Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Peter Ferlicca on January 08, 2009, 12:46:34 PM
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I made a little LA trip to get out of the desert heat this summer with my friend where we played San Gabriel Country Club in the Morning and then Riviera Country Club in the Afternoon. I will post the Riviera Country Club pictures because the tournament is coming up soon.
I thought this course was superb
- has options on every tee
- doesn't favor any player, you need a cut, slice, draw, and hook to get around here.
- Great match play course that provides tons of par and half holes
- The bunkers were just a blast to look at throughout the round
To compare the rough, I will give you an example
I played Torrey Pines South a couple weeks after the US open where they kept pretty much everything almost the same, and Torrey is notoriously known for their kikuyu rough. When I was at the Riv your ball could be 90% above the rough, thinking you have a good lie, then you hit the ball and it just grabs your club and the ball comes out dull every time. I thought the kikuyu rough at the Riv was A LOT harder to judge coming out of than it is at Torrey Pines.
Hole #1 Par 5/503 yards
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria1.jpg)
Hole #2 Par 4/463 yards
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria2.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria2g.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria2g2.jpg)
Hole #3 Par 4/434 yards
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria3.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria3g.jpg)
Hole #4 Par 3/236 yards
Hogans Hole
This is was one tough par 3
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria4.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria4g.jpg)
Hole #5 Par 4/419 yards
I thought this hole was real cool
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria5.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria5g.jpg)
Hole #6 Par 3/175 yards
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria6.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria6g.jpg)
Hole #7 Par 4/408 yards
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria7.jpg)
Hole #8 Par 4/408 yards
Split Fairway Hole
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria8.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria8g.jpg)
Hole #9 Par 4/420 yards
Hole #10 Par 4/315 yards
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria10t.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria10p.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria10g.jpg)
Hole #11 Par 5/564 yards
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria11.jpg)
Hole #12 Par 4/410 yards
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria12.jpg)
Hole #13 Par 4/421 yards
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria13.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria13g.jpg)
Hole #14 Par 3/176 yards
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria14.jpg)
Holes #15 Par 4/443 yards
Hole #16 Par 3/166 yards
Awesome Bunkers around this little gem
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria16.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria16g.jpg)
Hole #17 Par 5/576 yards
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria17.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria17b.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria17g.jpg)
Hole #18 Par 4/451 yards
A good tough finishing hole.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria18t.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria18g.jpg)
Overall I thought the course was fantastic and would love to be a member there. Playing this course would never get old to me; it has so many options that your rounds would never feel repetitive. The bunkers were marvelous to look at throughout your round, and were strategically placed on all your tee shots to promote a fade or draw.
Peter F
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I know of no other course or design that puts me so much in mind of a lovely day of surf gently lapping at the beach. A Green series of waves of surf...
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria4g.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria10p.jpg)
Thomas was a genius, as are the ongoing maintenance personel of those artful bunkers and FWs.
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I made a little LA trip to get out of the desert heat this summer with my friend where we played San Gabriel Country Club in the Morning and then Riviera Country Club in the Afternoon. I will post the Riviera Country Club pictures because the tournament is coming up soon.
I thought this course was superb
- has options on every tee
- doesn't favor any player, you need a cut, slice, draw, and hook to get around here.
- Great match play course that provides tons of par and half holes
- The bunkers were just a blast to look at throughout the round
To compare the rough, I will give you an example
I played Torrey Pines South a couple weeks after the US open where they kept pretty much everything almost the same, and Torrey is notoriously known for their kikuyu rough. When I was at the Riv your ball could be 90% above the rough, thinking you have a good lie, then you hit the ball and it just grabs your club and the ball comes out dull every time. I thought the kikuyu rough at the Riv was A LOT harder to judge coming out of than it is at Torrey Pines.
Hole #8 Par 4/408 yards
Split Fairway Hole
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria8.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria8g.jpg)
Peter -
Great pics. I too played Riviera this summer, and loved every inch of the course.... except for the area in between the two fairways on #8, which I undoubtedly found with my teeshot as a result of trying to figure out which fairway would be the best option. The answer: neither. Obviously.
Did you take pix of San Gabriel CC?
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PF
Thanks for posting the pix. I don't think I have ever seen such a large set of pix for Rivieria. How are the greens?
Can a ball be bounced in from the right around the bunkers?
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria4.jpg)
I really like the uncluttered look to the rear of the green.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria2g.jpg)
Dick - do you really think this is beautiful bunkering? I am not digging that long front bunker in the least.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria10p.jpg)
Thanks again PF!
Ciao
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Sean, my one and only time to view this in person was a tour (not play) around the course with Tommy N in the gloaming of a slow Sunday late afternoon. All I can say was, WOW! Yes I do think that the bunker styling and positioning is as artful and keen of GCA as it gets. And, from what we have seen of the old photos, that has remained from Thomas's work in the early days, although a more modern and refined or more precision technique of bunker care has now been employed. I don't know how one could look at that 10th photo and not feel the beach and surf rolling in.
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Do the par 3's on the back play pretty much the same?
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Sean,
On hole #4 the 236 yard par 3, you can bank it in from the right, it does play like a redan. A low soaring three wood play up the right hand side over the bunker would be the best shot.
Peter F
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Dick - do you really think this is beautiful bunkering? I am not digging that long front bunker in the least.
*image removed for nausea*
Thanks again PF!
Ciao
Thank you PF.
Please put me in the - I hate the new 10th bunkering camp and wish they had left it the way it was.
Don't ask Ian and I to bring back our pictures of the Mona Lisa with a blond wig and breast implants....
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Please add my name to Mike's list.
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Can we have a before and after photo of the 10th bunkering?
Had a great day playing at Riviera with Lynn and remember the 10th hole with great fondness. When was this work done?
Neil
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Sean, my one and only time to view this in person was a tour (not play) around the course with Tommy N in the gloaming of a slow Sunday late afternoon. All I can say was, WOW! Yes I do think that the bunker styling and positioning is as artful and keen of GCA as it gets. And, from what we have seen of the old photos, that has remained from Thomas's work in the early days, although a more modern and refined or more precision technique of bunker care has now been employed. I don't know how one could look at that 10th photo and not feel the beach and surf rolling in.
Dick
The placement looks to be fine, but the style, even if it were like the others, is mediocre at best. It strikes me as neither here nor there - wishy washy. I assume the bunkers have been altered. Does anybody have pix of the old style?
Ciao
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I had the opportunity to play Riviera earlier this year and it was a fantastic experience. Can you think of a course with more "famous" holes (other than possibly Augusta)?
#1, #3, #6, #10 & #18 are all holes that people *know*. I think that every GCA would do well to see #6 as a perfect example of doing something totally bizarre, yet infinitely playable. Walking around the green, it looked like you could hit a putt and reach almost any location to within a few feet.....with a bunker in the middle of the green. One of the best contoured greens I've ever played.
The kikuyu grass is something that you need to witness firsthand to really understand how it plays. It's just plain nasty, but once you get a little used to it, a lot of fun. Definitely need to hit different shots than usual to get around on that stuff. Also interesting how the greens staff goes around with a little scalpel/knife and cuts a slit around every green so it doesn't encroach on the putting surface.
They were the busiest private club I've ever seen, though the member I played with said they're trying to filter out some guest play and let fewer members in. Really glad I was able to see the course, cool experience.
Thanks for the pics!
Clint
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Sean,
I think RJ said exactly the same thing as you about the bunker on 10....wishy washy, surf rolling in...same thing.
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(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria10p.jpg)
or
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/000003661.jpg)
Well, the above are your choices. And, who did the remodel? Was it not sympathetic to Thomas's design style theme, with a more modern stylistic look, along with more crisp maintenance regime? It sure looks like it could be a serieds of waves in the surf at Santa Monica beach to me...
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You can also add my name to the list with Mike and Lynn.
Would I be way off base by saying that I wish I could be floored by the same dramatic difference seen in the Cal Clubs before and afters?
My point is that yes the new changes to Riviera arent bad and Riviera will always be spectacular and maintained to the highest level. But as for the WOW factor goes....Im not getting it the same way I do when I see the new Cal Club pix. I feel Cal Club got more bang for their buck.
Months ago during a heated thread about Riviera and bunkering I got my ass handed to me by some GCAers for wanting to see more of the scalloped looked at Riviera. And I still support that. Imagine if Riviera could have taken a similar approach to their work as Cal Club did. I wish Tommy N could do some photoshop work to some of these pictures and show us what the difference could be if they "restored" Riviera.
I dont want to sabotage the thread but thats just how I feel. Riviera is awesome and always will be. Matt and Bobby are on top of their game maintaining it. Thanks for the pictures.
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Here is the best I could come up with in a quick look of google images...
(http://www.gmccoop.com/After-Fay-5.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2168/2086991660_42705d9622.jpg?v=0)
I guess the first question is if Thomas desired to evoke the feeling of the sea and rollers, given the proximity to Santa Monica and all... Maybe not. Does the remodel evoke that feeling? But, I just don't 'hate' the redo. And, is the concept of a tincture of time and evolution of the new bunkers in play, to somewhat soften what some might find objectionable at this early stage? Was the whole Merion debate, 'Puffy Wilson', the upholstered look, and the Macdonald Bros work there something of the same thing in terms of the aging process from when folks were intitially upset, and now calmed down a bit?
Mike and Joe, I'm particularly curious as to whether you gents would devise or have a specific bunkering construction technique that you feel would work better - IF the mission was to recreate the Thomas look and feeling?
Don't get me wrong, I do see what folks are saying about putting a blond wig on Mona Lisa. The new bunkering is 'stylized" for sure.
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I don't know how many times I've said it over the years or will say it in the years to come but that #10 just has to be the absolute epitome of everthing that is right about so-called "strategic" golf and design!
Also, I would fly across the country to do nothing more than hit about fifty tee shots to #4 and then go forward to the green and watch a good golfer do the same but only if the course had some pretty good bounce and rollout.
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Tom, since I never actually played it, but looking at the photos and remembering my visual there, I think it is fair to say that the new bunkering claimed even more FW space for alternate positioning than the original. I guess that is certainly a point in favor of those that don't care for the new and harken back to the original or older version. But, the new still has corridors of alternate play, if not more demanding in placement to the alternate areas of approach. Would the risk or gamble tee shot still be essentially the same after the remodel, assuming you have the horsepower to get a ball in the near vicinity of the sliver green, or to its left or slightly beyond on a roll?
Some of the criticism might fall more in your 'big world' theory, it seems to me.
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Peter F.
Thanks for the pics :)
Clint,
That is an interesting insight into the control of Kikuyu grass encroachment into the green surfaces.
Can you elaborate more?
How large is the slit?
How often is the slit cut?
What utensil do they use?
Do they pick out the cut ends of the Kikuyu or does it die? ???
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John,
About once a month they take a cartpath edger with a 1/8" blade around the green, blow the debris to the outside of the green and then handpick any runners that made a move into the green.
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Ian
Thanks for the info - we have a similar problem with Paspalum encroaching our bent greens. We deliberately planted a buffer zone of bent between the green and paspalum fairways, which is cut very low making a terrific bump and run approach. The Paspalum creepers, like Kikuyu are very aggressive and are moving towards the green.
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John, I saw a staffer carrying around a blade that looked like the one below.....not exactly, but same idea. Looked like he was cleaning up, not doing the entire green. Wish I would've taken a pic of the slit, but in this one you can kinda see the slit on the right side.
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Thanks Clint
Am I seeing a slit directly on the green edge? Not between the collar and fairway?
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Green edge John. The collar is pure kikuyu.
James B
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Wayne
Here are two pictures I have of San Gabriel CC, my camera was acting up on me in the morning so I only got a couple good pictures.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/SanGabriel11.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/SanGabriel16.jpg)
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Riviera is one of my very favorites, but someone please, please, please take that paint brush away from the monkey.
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Tom Paul -
Here is a standing offer to come hit those shots. The redan on 4 will allow you to do as you like and the Kikuyu will not stand in the way of that design feature.
Re the bunkering on 10, the remodel strategically affected 2 things:
1) The left fairway bunker was widened maybe 5 yards to the right narrowing the gap for those trying to drive the green, which is not an issue for the pros who just fly the right edge of that bunker anyway, but does make it harder for the rest of us to try to pull off that shot. Didn't bother Barney the day we played as he hit it 10 feet from the hole.
2) The back left of the green used to have a backstop that gave a pulled shot a good chance of staying on the green. That has been shaved away and now puts the burden back on the accuracy of the shot. This was a very good change and I believe a restoration to approximately its original form.
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Here is a standing offer to come hit those shots. The redan on 4 will allow you to do as you like and the Kikuyu will not stand in the way of that design feature.
Michael,
As a So Cal golfer with lots of Kikuyu experience I find it hard to believe that a ball can be bounced of this surface, especially when it's presented in a lush state. Are you saying that balls can easily carrom into the 4th green from the right; even if they are slightly faded? Is this done with a special preperation, or can balls be bounced onto the greens throughout the course?
I also think Riviera is a special place; but it is spite of the Kikuyu and not because of it!
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John, I saw a staffer carrying around a blade that looked like the one below.....not exactly, but same idea. Looked like he was cleaning up, not doing the entire green. Wish I would've taken a pic of the slit, but in this one you can kinda see the slit on the right side.
Same thing works well for Goosegrass and Bull Paspalum.
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Here is a standing offer to come hit those shots. The redan on 4 will allow you to do as you like and the Kikuyu will not stand in the way of that design feature.
Michael,
As a So Cal golfer with lots of Kikuyu experience I find it hard to believe that a ball can be bounced of this surface, especially when it's presented in a lush state. Are you saying that balls can easily carrom into the 4th green from the right; even if they are slightly faded? Is this done with a special preperation, or can balls be bounced onto the greens throughout the course?
I also think Riviera is a special place; but it is spite of the Kikuyu and not because of it!
Pete,
I think that I may be the only current contributor to GCA that has been a member of Riviera. I do remember that a solid three wood, drawing to the green at No. 4 was doable and was the required shot when I played there in the seventies. I think that the old No. 10 was better than the new.
The photographs reminded me of what a wonderful course I had at my disposal. On a summer evening I would go down the steps from my house to the back tee of No. 12, play along to the 13th cross over to the 9th, play that hole and Nos. 10 and 11 and then go home and have a gin and tonic.
Life was good.
Bob
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Here is a standing offer to come hit those shots. The redan on 4 will allow you to do as you like and the Kikuyu will not stand in the way of that design feature.
Michael,
As a So Cal golfer with lots of Kikuyu experience I find it hard to believe that a ball can be bounced of this surface, especially when it's presented in a lush state. Are you saying that balls can easily carrom into the 4th green from the right; even if they are slightly faded? Is this done with a special preperation, or can balls be bounced onto the greens throughout the course?
I also think Riviera is a special place; but it is spite of the Kikuyu and not because of it!
If you ever see the green in person, you will then, and only then, realize...........
ah, nevermind.
Yes you can bounce golf balls on the green, that is why it is the best par 3 in golf.
And Jim, no the par 3's on the back do not play the same. Not in the least.
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Bob,
How appropriate to hear from you; I'm curently staying in the home of an ex Rhodesian Army Officer. I have experienced the full gambit of Kikuyu conditions here in ZA. If starved for water it can play very linksy; with balls easily bounding onto the green, as we experienced at Milnerton in Capetown. Conditions were much lusher at Royal Cape; the turf was springy with a considerable thatch layer, balls could not be bounced onto the green there. There was a bit of kikuyu at the links of Humewood, generally growing in the low points of the considerable hummocks there; but by keeping irrigation to a minimum, it had very links like conditions. Their primary turf is Bermuda; they call it cycondon here and it definetly allows the ball to trundle as it should. But my overall experience is that the low lying Kikuyu will be much lusher than that which is exposed on the surface of hillocks and that it truely difficult to manage for a bouncing ball game.
Torrey Pines had fabulous Kikuyu fairways for the US Open, but that required considerable effort: a full year of water deprivation and spraying along with restricing the carts to cart paths. The saving grace there is that in order to tie in the newly constructed greens there was a collar of rye grass which does allow the ball to bounce. As JK says "nothing bounces like a ball"; but not necessarily on Kikuyu.
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Pete - The ball will bound onto the green with a draw even in lush conditions, and there is a very conscious effort to keep that grass very firm so the hole plays as designed. A fade into the redan will not make the green and will leave you with a precarious chip, which seems right to me as a result for not executing the required shot. Matt Morton the GCS works very hard at trying to keep the design playing as intended despite the Kikuyu. In most places he is very successful, but in some spots it is what it is. I will say that in the winter when the K is dormant and the Santa Ana's blow, the place becomes very fast and firm.
Bob - There is 1 current member, 2 former members, 1 former Asst Pro, several former maintenance crew members and a gentlemen who works in the front office from time to time that participate on this site. I also used to work in the bag room when you were a member and I believe I cleaned your clubs a time or two. :)
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PF, Many thanks for this great set of pictures and also to everyone else for their comments etc.
I can only really dream of playing this place and as I've found it difficult to get a copy of Geoff Shackelford's book over here in England, these photos and general insight have helped greatly! Seems some debate about if you can or can't run the ball up with a draw from the right on the 4th, which would have been my first question. My other question though is how well does the multiple fairway option on the 8th work? Is there a clear benefit from one fairway over another?
Cheers,
James
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[
As a So Cal golfer with lots of Kikuyu experience I find it hard to believe that a ball can be bounced of this surface, especially when it's presented in a lush state. Are you saying that balls can easily carrom into the 4th green from the right; even if they are slightly faded? Is this done with a special preperation, or can balls be bounced onto the greens throughout the course?
I also think Riviera is a special place; but it is spite of the Kikuyu and not because of it!
I've only had the great pleasure of playing Riviera once (in a scramble!), but I can attest that one can bring the ball in from the right and have it move down to the left and onto the green. I played a 2 hybrid for my shot and it landed to the right of the green and moved right on over to the right center of the green. What an absolutely fantastic hole.
My favorite hole on the golf course is definitely number 10. I could play that hole over and over and over and never get bored.
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"And, is the concept of a tincture of time and evolution of the new bunkers in play, to somewhat soften what some might find objectionable at this early stage? Was the whole Merion debate, 'Puffy Wilson', the upholstered look, and the Macdonald Bros work there something of the same thing in terms of the aging process from when folks were intitially upset, and now calmed down a bit?"
RJ:
"Of a tincture of time and evolution?"
What's going on with you, pal; are you channeling Shakespeare or some such? ;)
No, seriously, I like that analogy of Riviera's bunkers and their (expected?) evolution to those of Merion's (after their bunker project). Personally, I don't mind the bunkers Merion has now after they had the time to allow the grass surrounds to get the way they did. But I say that certainly understanding that the way they look now is a look the famous "White Faces" of Merion never had before in the course's history and during that history they did have at least three other fairly distinct looks!
When we criticized the look of the Merion bunkers originally by calling them "Puffy Wilson" or the "Upholstered" look did we understand what they would look like given the time for the grass to grow the way it did?
I know I sure didn't and I'm pretty confident no one on this website did either. How could they? Were they talking to the project or green committee about what they intended the bunkers to eventually look like? Of course not.
Actually, I had friends on that committee, including the chairman and I sort of doubt even he had a complete visual image of what they'd eventually look like when they had the chance to mature including the grass growing as long as it did.
I think if you showed a closeup of some of Merion's present really grassy bunkers to someone on here who criticized them and told them the bunker was on Royal County Down they'd probably praise it. But if you then told them it was actually on Merion they'd condemn it again. I think some on here just have some emotional investment in criticizing that Merion bunker project and they will never be willing to let that go. ;)
But again, what they have now is a look they never had before even though it really is about the fourth distinct bunker look in Merion East's history.
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How big is the bunker on the middle of the green on 6? It only looks like it's 6-7 feet wide.
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RJ:
Regarding all I said in post #35 about the evolution of Merion's bunkers as they are now and what you're implying about Riviera's bunkers, I've got to say there is a way to overcome that uncertainty with future bunker projects. Of course I'm saying all this in retrospect. That way would be to get someone to do a bunch of photoshop alternatives and iterations on potential evolved looks and then just create and maintain to that goal (look).
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Michael Robin,
If I remember correctly, #4 plays ever so slightly downhill. Or maybe it was downwind? All I remember is that it played a bit shorter than it's listed 236 yards the day I played it.
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Yes, a few of us preferred the look of sand upswept to the top craggy lip as seen below, but they are doing their best to make the new grassy bunkers look more ruggedly natural.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3482/3181645171_6da4b77a89.jpg?v=0)
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(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria7.jpg)
For those newbies that are interested in learning the finer points of GCA, the above fwy bunker is an example of something I suspect Thomas would never have done. Any newbies want to guess what is so wrong?
Despite very few examples of questionable alterations, Riviera is a great golf course. The epitome of a sum being greater than it's parts. Very appropriate that Merion is being discussed because they are similar in that regard. Chip, have you played here? ;)
The trees on the left side of 13, off the tee shot, are unnecessarily constricting. Without them, the openness would add tremendously to ones senses, and uncertainty, evident in the very early pictures of the property, spread throughout the tremendous clubhouse.
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Added to http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/California (http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/California)
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Thanks for the photos. Some of the changes made are controversial, for sure and perhaps not in line with Thomas' original vision.
But I must say it's still quite a golf course...like many of said, one where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
I'm thinking of doing a complimentary photo thread of this great course closer to tournament time. I got some great shots while walking the course one night all by my lonesome and also have a lot of shots of the interior of the clubhouse, along with the guest rooms. Just a cool, cool place.
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Pete - The ball will bound onto the green with a draw even in lush conditions, and there is a very conscious effort to keep that grass very firm so the hole plays as designed. A fade into the redan will not make the green and will leave you with a precarious chip, which seems right to me as a result for not executing the required shot. Matt Morton the GCS works very hard at trying to keep the design playing as intended despite the Kikuyu. In most places he is very successful, but in some spots it is what it is. I will say that in the winter when the K is dormant and the Santa Ana's blow, the place becomes very fast and firm.
Bob - There is 1 current member, 2 former members, 1 former Asst Pro, several former maintenance crew members and a gentlemen who works in the front office from time to time that participate on this site. I also used to work in the bag room when you were a member and I believe I cleaned your clubs a time or two. :)
MIchael,
Thanks for the update. Was Mac Hunter still the pro then? I'll IM you later.
Bob
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James
On hole number 8, when you step up on the tee the right side looks much more inviting, it makes the second shot a little harder hitting over a small ravine in front of the green, but trying to hit a butter cut down the left side is a much more demanding shot. I'm pretty sure when they have the pros play here almost all of them hit it down the right side.
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There is 1 current member (on GCA).
It's about quality, not quantity. ;)
Under those terms, GCA is well-represented at Riviera.
Brown-nosedly,
Kyle
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James
On hole number 8, when you step up on the tee the right side looks much more inviting, it makes the second shot a little harder hitting over a small ravine in front of the green, but trying to hit a butter cut down the left side is a much more demanding shot. I'm pretty sure when they have the pros play here almost all of them hit it down the right side.
Thanks, the right does look more inviting from the photo, and also the aerial I've just looked at on Google Earth, but from the aerial I'd never realised how bad the little ravine was, but the photo shows it well! In fact the photos of the whole course show it much better than the aerial, so thanks once again for posting them.
Cheers,
James
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Just based on pics and aerials I've seen of the hole, its always seemed to me it would play better and offer more of a dilemma if the trees between the two fairways on 8 were removed. As it is now, it seems like its just too much of a gamble to go left even if it leaves a slighty shorter approach in.
IIRC - Phil Mickelson likes going left with his baby draw, but he's the only one.
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Mr. Cirba:
I would like a complete explanation of that photo of yours in Reply #39. What is that pinkish color all about in that sand pit? Does this have anything to do with the Philadelphia Syndrome Society? Have you and Bausch and Harris been sacrificing savages and heathens from the Midwestern region of this continent in that bunker?
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Here is a standing offer to come hit those shots. The redan on 4 will allow you to do as you like and the Kikuyu will not stand in the way of that design feature.
I also think Riviera is a special place;
I couldn't agree more. Every time I think about my day there it gives me a very pleasant feeling.
Michael, good to see you here. Hope all is well and I hope you're getting some sleep!
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I'm a big fan of Riviera, but, don't some of the bunkers in the photos look like the bland, circular before pictures in the California Club thread ?
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"For those newbies that are interested in learning the finer points of GCA, the above fwy bunker is an example of something I suspect Thomas would never have done. Any newbies want to guess what is so wrong?" ADAM CLAYMAN
I will take a shot
1)I would say the trees to the right of the tee just off the tee box diminish the risk/reward aspect of the hole by forcing the golfer to play a particular angle on a hole that was intended to be of cape qualities (giving the golfer options as to how much he/she wants to bite off)
2) The bunker protects a ball from going into further trouble instead of being a true hazard it is more of a safeguard against a pulled tee ball.
3) The trees on the left of the bunker (hard to tell from this angle) could create a double hazard, playing out of a bunker around or over trees.
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What is so wrong? Thomas would have never built the bunker...he would have said "hey, Billy Boy, get your ass over here and build me a bunker"
Riviera is one of the finest designs one would ever want to play. Strategy, balance of holes, variety of shots, demands on ball striking are neverending. I was unable to find any true negatives about the golf course, and that puts it on a very short list. Why/how this course is not discussed/mentioned in the same breath as the other 15-20 architecturally significant US courses a) on this site and b) by the magazines is a surprise to me. Also, I'll vote for Kikuya, as it is synonymous with playing year round golf in shorts in this nape of the woods......
Can our GCA Gods ever be appeased? I often wonder what would happen "if" they could get Fabio Marzo out of there. But then again, would they just turn around and hire a rack-whacker like Dick Wilson? Or would they hire the correct people? It shall be interesting, once the restoration at LACC is complete and the mob's pitch is rising.
Let's all remember that it could be worse...drive down the street and visit Fabio's clinic at Bel Air!
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Kenny, Thanks for trying. At least there's one who is interested.
Please don't read any tone into my response, there is none.
I was specifically referring to the fairway bunker. Not the trees. But since you mentioned them, the trees on the left basically remove any normal golfer's notion of going left. I suspect when the hole was built those trees were not there and the openness was massive. The benefits of openness are several but the one I'm partial to is the theory that a good golfer has serious doubts or uncertainty as to where to go, without the definition created by trees and narrow fairways. Think ANGC original principles here.
I will have to point out the error of referring to this hole as a risk reward hole. There's really no such thing, technically. There are risk reward shots, not holes.
But, the issue with the Marzolf version of the Thomas bunker is how it flows against the natural flow of that property. Thomas originally built the course without one feature that was built in this manner. The newer scalloped edges to the cross bunker on #10 also has elements that are built up against the flow.
I'm not representing myself as an expert on the subject,(or Riviera) I'm relaying what I remember reading back when this site was more focused on GCA and these issues came up. Also, the day I met Ben Crenshaw he went out of his way to explain to me how, and what, Thomas had done at Riviera.
Hopefully, someone with better recollection, and understanding, will correct any mis-statements I've made in this post.
As an aside, the green on this hole is not an original either. It is completely out of character with the rest of the greens and is another thing Thomas would never have built here.
I'll reiterate that these few examples of mistakes take very little away from the golf course because there is so much still right about the golf course.
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David Ober - 4 plays probably a few yards downhill, but I never play it for anything but level. The prevailing wind usually shows up around 10am and it is directly into your face causing the hole to play about 245 yards from 10am to noon and then about 255 after that. You must have caught it in the am or in a Santa Ana.
Bob H - The late Ron Rhoads was the Pro when I was getting started there in 1977. Mac Jr. was still around and playing some good golf.
David Stamm - Not too much sleep these days. Twins just turned 1 and work is fortunately constant.
Kyle H - Thanks. I'll try to contact you soon.
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Having had the pleasure of golfing at Riviera, the standout feature of the course is the flow of the holes. I had been told over the years that Riviera is one of the great routings in golf, making the best possible use of its property. After only one round I certainly cannot comment on that in an informed way, but the holes do move around quite nicely. I was surprised at how many greens had interesting movement to them. There were some greens where some of the work of recent years was fairly obvious, but other than being visually out of character they didn't seem to detract from the way the holes play IMO. I could not have asked for a better course guide than Michael who was a wealth of information and enhanced the wonderful experience that I had at Riviera. I would have to agree with Jon that the course doesn't seem to have many weaknesses and certainly belongs in any conversation of great golf courses.
As some have pointed out there are some aesthetic features that I can understand people not caring for, but I didn't encounter much that seemed to be lacking functionally in how the course tests your game.
Barney knocking one close on #10 has to be pretty high on the highlight reel.
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(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Riveria7.jpg)
For those newbies that are interested in learning the finer points of GCA, the above fwy bunker is an example of something I suspect Thomas would never have done. Any newbies want to guess what is so wrong?
Despite very few examples of questionable alterations, Riviera is a great golf course. The epitome of a sum being greater than it's parts. Very appropriate that Merion is being discussed because they are similar in that regard. Chip, have you played here? ;)
The trees on the left side of 13, off the tee shot, are unnecessarily constricting. Without them, the openness would add tremendously to ones senses, and uncertainty, evident in the very early pictures of the property, spread throughout the tremendous clubhouse.
Sorry for bringing back this thread!
I just needed to answer...
Adam:
Maybe because Thomas didn't like to build bunkers on the outside of the fairway? Or because that bunker is too large for his time?
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My guess / answer... because the bunker would "protect" / prevent off-line tee shots from settling into or behind the tree line. The tree is no longer a realistic hazard if the bunker protects wayward balls from entering its boundary.
I'll accept as much red ink as is customary to a noob.
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Actually the original design had a fairway bunker on #7 in the same approximate location. Put in by Thomas/Bell. It did look much different than what Marzolf/McDonald Constr. built there now.
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Rivera looks awesome. Does anyone know if they ever have any charity events there?
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Rivera looks awesome. Does anyone know if they ever have any charity events there?
Rick,
I do know that have tons of outside events here, on mondays they almost always have an outside outing. But you have to play the temporary greens on 10 and 16 which is a big bummer.