Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Dan King on July 03, 2008, 01:36:00 PM
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I found this article while looking for something else. It is from Golf Illustrated & Outdoor America, 1915 July Vol. 3, Issue 4, pgs. 31-35. I don't know if this article has been discussed before, but it is a pretty cool article:
The Lido Golf Course (http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1915/gi34k.pdf) by C.B. Macdonald.
Cheers,
Dan King
To write a description of any golf necessitates stating the premise upon which is based the description -- for instance, the undulations and hillocks, the character and placing of the bunkers, the variety of putting greens, each to suit the particular charachter of hole, the quality of turf, the width of the fair green, and the description of the teeing grounds with their proximity to putting greens -- in fact there is so much ground to cover that I can give you only a brief description.
--C.B. Macdonad (writing on Lido, 1915)
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Thank you Dan.
If you can align the routing on a double page in acrobat the model looks pretty cool - pretty tight too.
I like the Vardon comment about the large majority of American courses lack fairway undulations. Seems to be more true than ever - with the exception of the favored few here.
I can't imagine the 4th being one of the finest in the world. Seems like there isn't much choice between the fairways - if you can hit it you go for it...
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Are there any photos of the Lido course, after it was finished? Would really like to see what the holes look like.
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Jim:
Daniel Wexler's "Missing Links" has several B/W photos of the Lido.
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Some pictures and text about Lido written by Joshua Crane in a 1927 Golf Illustrated article:
Famous American Courses: Lido (http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1927/gi272g.pdf)
No pictures of the golf course in this one, but still interesting:
Lido's New Home (http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1927/gi272g.pdf) Golf Illustrated, by A. C. Gregson. Vol. 29 No. 5, August 1928.
Cheers,
Dan King
While the views, except where the course borders the beach, are rather flat ad uninteresting, such a contrast to Westard Ho!, for instance, where there is so much picturesque high land surrounding the broad estuary of Barnstaple Bay, yet there is engendered a feeling of the open spaces and freedom to swing the brassie without any fear of coming in contact with trees or houses in the back swing, that enhances so largely the real pleasure of golf.
--Joshua Crane (on Lido, 1927)
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Thanks for the links, Dan. When I click on the 2nd article, by Gregson, I get Crane's article.
Crane did not like NGLA much. He said it followed the outward appearance of the famous holes in Great Britain, but overlooked their principles. He especially pointed up the Alps hole at NGLA as poorly done.
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I gotta believe that after Lido, they took this show on the road and tried to nearly duplicate the process with CC of Charleston. Not to thread jack, but I'm just saying...
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Mike N: I don't think the choice of line for the 4th hole at Lido was so clear-cut. The target to the right was fairly small and the rough was reputedly VERY thick, so you had to have confidence in hitting a straight shot as well as being able to make the carry ... there was a real risk involved even for longer hitters, because if they missed the fairway, they would have to hack out and might not even make the green in three.
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Macdonald said he felt Lido's 4th (Channel hole) was the best two shot hole in the world even though a full 90% of golfers would have to play it as a three shot hole. It was listed on the card as a 505 yard par 5 although it was 466 directly from tee to the green using the right alternate fairway which required a 210 yard carry. The Alternate fairway was in constructed dunes and was 30-35 yards wide and 100 yards long. From there it was expected a good player would need a driving iron or brassie to reach the green over a dangerous bunker about forty yards short of the green.
(For comparison sake it seems to me asking a good player to make a 210 yard carry in 1915 would be something like asking a good player today to make about a 275 yard CARRY!)
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Correction:
Lido's New Home (http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1928/gi295s.pdf) Golf Illustrated, by A. C. Gregson. Vol. 29 No. 5, August 1928.
Sorry 'bout that.
Cheers,
Dan King
In a chariot of light from the region of the day,
The Goddess of Liberty came
She brought in her hand as a pledge of her love,
the plant she named Liberty Tree.
--Thomas Paine
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Good to see that there were PR flacks around in the Golden Age too. The statement that Lido would be as permanent as the great golf courses of Britain would vie as a finalist for the worst prediction of 1928, along with, "Stock market has nowhere to go but up!"
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The 4th Lido:
I personally think the direct route to the green at 4-Lido was too penal which caused most golfers to select the 3-shot route, negating much of the choice.
Fortunately Macdonald (and Raynor) decided to use it early in the front 9. At least if you screwed it up (easy to do) you had 14 holes left.
Remember there were winds at Lido and the 4th was very susceptible to a left to right, off ocean wind so a faded ball to the risk fairway could easily blow off the course into the channel.
Off fairway was sand and sea bents. The raised risk-fairway was considerably higher than the safer-route fairway. That route had all water all along the left and sidehill sand hazard on the (slice-side) right on the tee shot.
At Old Macdonald this “hole strategy” falls late in the round and a strong effort will be made to make both routes to the green the be both attractive off the tee as well as confusing and confounding off the tee.
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g85/ggb313/new%20ggb313/sharing-Lido04Channelcolorandtitled.jpg)
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(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g85/ggb313/new%20ggb313/Lidomapforsharing-1.jpg)
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Good to see that there were PR flacks around in the Golden Age too. The statement that Lido would be as permanent as the great golf courses of Britain would vie as a finalist for the worst prediction of 1928, along with, "Stock market has nowhere to go but up!"
The statement was that the Lido, the National, and Pine Valley would be as permanent as the great courses of Britain. Two out of three isn't bad in the prediction business.
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Good to see that there were PR flacks around in the Golden Age too. The statement that Lido would be as permanent as the great golf courses of Britain would vie as a finalist for the worst prediction of 1928, along with, "Stock market has nowhere to go but up!"
The statement was that the Lido, the National, and Pine Valley would be as permanent as the great courses of Britain. Two out of three correct, not bad in the prediction business.
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David
Your comment wasn't good enough to be posted twice. ;)
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Dan - thanks for the link. I'd read that article before, but it was quite a while ago. I was struck again by the simplicty, directness and richness of the following line:
"This unpromising territory was chosen for the making of an ideal golf course partly because of its climate and proximity to New York but partly also because it left the hand of the golf architect perfectly free to build his course from the bottom up."
It's amazing how many concepts/ideas/philosophies/debates about the art and craft (and business) of golf course architecture are referenced in just that one simple sentence.
To me, the most interesting part is the juxtaposition of/relationship between the pursuit of an "ideal" golf course with the "free hand" given an architect. You could write a book about it....
Peter
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David
Your comment wasn't good enough to be posted twice. ;)
But yours was so clever it demanded two replies.
Dan - thanks for the link. I'd read that article before, but it was quite a while ago. I was struck again by the simplicty, directness and richness of the following line:
"This unpromising territory was chosen for the making of an ideal golf course partly because of its climate and proximity to New York but partly also because it left the hand of the golf architect perfectly free to build his course from the bottom up."
It's amazing how many concepts/ideas/philosophies/debates about the art and craft (and business) of golf course architecture are referenced in just that one simple sentence.
To me, the most interesting part is the juxtaposition of/relationship between the pursuit of an "ideal" golf course with the "free hand" given an architect. You could write a book about it....
What do you think he meant by "ideal golf course?"
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Dan,
Thanks for posting those links. Besides the interesting content, I love the writing style of those days too.
John
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"This unpromising territory was chosen for the making of an ideal golf course partly because of its climate and proximity to New York but partly also because it left the hand of the golf architect perfectly free to build his course from the bottom up."
"It's amazing how many concepts/ideas/philosophies/debates about the art and craft (and business) of golf course architecture are referenced in just that one simple sentence.
To me, the most interesting part is the juxtaposition of/relationship between the pursuit of an "ideal" golf course with the "free hand" given an architect. You could write a book about it...."
Peter:
A remark like that may not be worth an entire book but on the other hand maybe it is. It does pretty much go directly to the age old golf architecture question of how much good architecture should use what nature provides and how much an architect should actually manufacture? Obviously something like that depends so much on the natural site.
The fact is that answer was determined at the Lido site as naturally it was in no way conducive to a golf course. Ironically, that fact, according to Macdonald, is what got him to agree to do it in the first place----eg he could actually “CREATE” everything and anything he had not theretofore been able to find appropriate landforms for elsewhere. Macdonald said himself the prospect of what he could do by totally manufacturing Lido made him feel like he was “a CREATOR”. That sounds to me like he felt he could play the part of Nature itself at Lido where Nature provided no limitations to good golf and where all that he had previously wanted to do, particularly from abroad, was possible---possible for him to entirely manufacture, including all the little humps and bumps and contours of fairways and such, not to even mention ideal tees and greens and green sites and all the elevation configurations he wanted that could go with them.
I don’t think there’s any question either, that some American architects who were really beginning to make a name for themselves through the teens were probably beginning to get sort of turned off on Macdonald’s continuous theme and promotion of the idea that holes from abroad that were time tested were what should always be so liberally used in this country.
Another interesting thing with seemingly ALL Macdonald’s courses in New York through the years, including NGLA, and including Mid Ocean in Bermuda, is it seems at least some of the very same principals were always with him on everything he did. All of those men were rich and powerful New Yorkers and some from elsewhere and the fact is they all knew each other not just through golf but through their businesses and their own pretty tight-knit society in New York and Long Island that did extend to other locales frequented by these very same people.
The promotion and the superlatives about Lido’s course were pretty heady for sure including that it should be and would be one of the great enduring courses of the world. However, in my opinion at least, the demise of Lido which actually began very early, did not have much of anything to do with the golf course. Numerous other factors contributed to its demise which would include probably not the best over-all location, extremely bad timing with the onset of WW1, and perhaps just an general overreach that something like that would produce the demand the original principals thought it would. There was one other apparently unforeseen problem that could certainly kill the popularity of any golf course anywhere, no matter how great---a very endemic mosquito problem! The fact is the original principals, most all of whom were friends of Macdonald’s and with him on other courses pulled out and sold the place to independent real estate developers within just a few years of Lido’s creation.
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David - While there are repeated mentions of how Lido reflects the great/historic golf holes, I think that in this case "ideal" means more than that. It means a golf course comprised of 18 great holes, i.e. a golf course without any weak holes.
TE - Because I think (i.e. am assuming) that "ideal" in this case means a golf course without any weak holes, it makes me wonder about when the esteem we have today for an architect's routing ability (i.e. for his ability to make the BEST POSSIBLE use of the site in its natural state) first manifested itself.
Peter
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The promotion and the superlatives about Lido’s course were pretty heady for sure including that it should be and would be one of the great enduring courses of the world. However, in my opinion at least, the demise of Lido which actually began very early, did not have much of anything to do with the golf course. Numerous other factors contributed to its demise which would include probably not the best over-all location, extremely bad timing with the onset of WW1, and perhaps just an general overreach that something like that would produce the demand the original principals thought it would. There was one other apparently unforeseen problem that could certainly kill the popularity of any golf course anywhere, no matter how great---a very endemic mosquito problem! The fact is the original principals, most all of whom were friends of Macdonald’s and with him on other courses pulled out and sold the place to independent real estate developers within just a few years of Lido’s creation.
TEP,
Wasn't the search by the USN for a suitable training area as much of a cause as anything else? The course was in good shape as late as 1940 but by the end of the war, most of it was under military buildings and parking lots. Or did the original owners abandon it prior to the Navy takeover?
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"TE - Because I think (i.e. am assuming) that "ideal" in this case means a golf course without any weak holes, it makes me wonder about when the esteem we have today for an architect's routing ability (i.e. for his ability to make the BEST POSSIBLE use of the site in its natural state) first manifested itself."
Peter:
That's a good point.
Obviously routing a site, particularly one that has a ton of natural assets and topography and such for the best individual holes it may offer just may not get you even close to an ideal golf course in the sense those holes are in the right place and of the right type to conform to what most have considered really good balance and variety in a routing or sequential sense.
That fact seems to be one of the lesser known aspects about great natural sites and great routings, at least in an ideal balance and variety and sequential sense. It's a lot easier to produce a great routing in a balance and variety and sequential sense on a site that basically offers few natural obstacles to that goal, but the fact is to get really good holes on a site that has a lot less natural assets the architect will need to make a lot more himself simply because there just isn't that much of interest to use to come up with an ideal course in an individual hole sense.
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The Metropolitan Open was played at Lido in 1932 and it hosted the Met Am in 1936.
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"TEP,
Wasn't the search by the USN for a suitable training area as much of a cause as anything else? The course was in good shape as late as 1940 but by the end of the war, most of it was under military buildings and parking lots. Or did the original owners abandon it prior to the Navy takeover?"
Craig:
I don't know the entire history of Lido that well and I never saw the course. I'm basically just mentioning what Macdonald said himself in his book that he wrote in 1927-28. He said the original principals sold out early and the new owners really had no idea how to take care of the course and they even did a few things that he thought kind of wrecked it, such as its basic drainage patterns early on. He said the first time he say it again after building it (a few years) it was really disappointing to him. He called it an example of "Love's labor lost."
To be honest, it seems pretty bizarre if a few years passed between Macdonald completing it and seeing it again. I can't imagine why that was. It isn't that far off the beaten road from NYC to Southampton. I guess a lot of that may've had to do with the war too. I don't think it was considered too cool to be playing a lot of golf or even constructing during the war or certainly in our approximately nineteen months in it.
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Does anyone know if Tom Doak is looking to Lido for some of his inspiration for Old MacDonald?
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Sebonac:
I know, anyway.
We will have a hole something like the fourth at Lido at Old Macdonald on hole #17. The Lido hole was inspired by a hole at Littlestone, England which did not have any water in play, so I think we can proceed without a pond. From the back tee, it may indeed be a 260 yard carry to the island fairway ... that hole won't happen until November, so we have some time to figure it out.
The only other holes which were unique to Lido (as opposed to Macdonald's other courses) were #18, inspired by Alister MacKenzie's prize-winning design, #15, inspired by an entry of Tom Simpson's to the same competition, and #6, inspired by one of the runners-up for the competition. I didn't think any of those should have a place on a course meant to honor Macdonald, even if he did use them at Lido. We did think about using a version of the dogleg #6, but we did not find an ideal place for it.
I think it is fair to say that our inspirations for Old Macdonald are the same as Macdonald's inspirations for the National Golf Links of America ... the great holes from Britain of which he was so enamored.
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Much of the demise of Lido caused by a number of unforseen circumstances.
The Lido project began in 1914 about the time Hitler was terrorizing Europe
The course opened in 1917 (unofficially) - 1918 officially - this is when the US entered the WWI and at that time the original founders turned their interest to the war effort and away from golf.
They never really got back into the project the way they originally intended after the war and the course began a long period of deterioration and money problems (even thought he great clubhouse was built in 1928) and after a time some of the ocean holes were sold off and the course shortened.
I’ve spoken with a person whose family actually owned the Lido course at two different times during the down days. He bought and sold it for profit both times.
The U S Navy took over Long Beach Island during the WW2 and the course was lost
I guess I should do the “Lido book” - it is a very interesting story and over the years I’ve come up with a treasure trove of information and photos that did not appear in the Macdonald book
There is a lot more detail I went through in my first book but that is the bones of the story
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)Tom Paul one of the main reasons CBM was disappointed with the end result of the Lido course and it contractors was that so much money was spent on the landfill operation many of the finite features that were supposed to go onto the course were eliminated .... most notable the ideas he had about the various (different) ripples the fairways were supposed to get.
As I said, the war effort and the lost interest by the wealthy founders really hit the course hard but it still came out great enuf to take the #2 spot at the time (pre-PV
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George:
That last statement makes me wonder for the first time whether Lido was really as good as it was cracked up to be, or whether some of its #2 ranking was simply awe over the scope of the project and how it came to be, much like Shadow Creek.
I wish we could go back and play it so I would know for sure.
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You know, Tom, I think I agree to a large extent.
It was an engineering marvel - the pumps used to dredge Reynold’s Channel were from the Panama Canal project - 2 million cu yds of inert sand from the bottom.
The press was enamored with the project (yes, Shadow Creek and now Bayonne) - the enormity of it all - and it was something that had never even been thought of before. Article after article was written about the course.
The fact that they took this swamp, barely above sea level, and made it into really good course really caught everyone’s attention for sure.
... and these founders were real promoters as well.
Quote:
“Spearheading the sizeable group of investors headed by Winthrop, were Paul Kravath, Thomas Cuyler, Cornelius Vanderbilt, Robert Goelet, Charles Sabin, Henry Bull, W. Forbes Morgan, James Stillman, Harry Paine Whitney and the ever-present Otto Kahn. Many of these men, and others who would later join them, were already members at the National, of Piping Rock, Nassau, Garden City and of Sleepy Hollow as well. This was the wealth of the northeast United States.”
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Some of the holes were really great holes but perhaps the hype over-blew the ranking of the course - everyone got caught up in the fact something like this could actually be done in that day and age.
I was honored to interview Gene Sarazen at age 92 and he hated the course - of course he never played well there ...... like ngla, he said: “too many blind shots”and at Lido: “too many blind shots AND too windy” (hah)
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GeorgeB:
With the Lido and with Macdonald's opinions of what happened to it and why all I'm doing is reading what he wrote about it in his book, and you're right, he did say in his book he was disappointed the fill contractors did not do SOME of the fairway contours to the course plans as he hoped they would. If you're aware of something else he wrote about it that would certainly be interesting to know but I pretty much doubt there is anything other on the Lido than what is contained in Macdonald's own book.
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Interesting thread gentlemen.
Is the plan of the course mirror-reversed by chance George - or do I need a new prescription for my glasses?
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g85/ggb313/new%20ggb313/Lidomapforsharing-1.jpg)
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"Is the plan of the course mirror-reversed by chance George - or do I need a new prescription for my glasses?"
Neil:
Indeed it is! Frankly, it's a whole lot more challenging playing to the fairways of a hole surrounded by a noogal than it is to a hole surrounded by a lagoon.
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There was a Lido thread several years ago wherein the Emperor himself, Tommy Naccarato, superimposed the original routing on an aerial photo of how the ground looks today (from Google Maps??). It was pretty neat, if anyone knows how to find it (I don't).
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You know Chip Old Boy, I'm actually sorry you brought up that superimposed map of the way it is today compared to the original Lido course. It only serves to bring back a bad and embarrassing memory for me. I took that superimposed map very seriously back then and when I was up there at one point I actually honed right in on the original 4th green and unfortunately I found myself inside the bedroom of one Mrs Marino Soprano whose bed happened to be immediately over the approximate center of the Channel hole green. It was app. 10 o'clock in the morning and she was in bed with the yardman. I said I was extremely sorry and that I was only a golf architectural archaeologist on a most important search mission. She did not seem to be amused.
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Neil - your right, thanks - sorry - I've been fooling with this on in various forms for years
the correct view:
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g85/ggb313/new%20ggb313/Lidomapforsharing-2.jpg)
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Sorry for this, but is one of my favorite parts of the Lido story:
Macdonald had stolen the great Peter Lees from Mid Surry and brought him over the the US to help with the project, esp the grow in. They brought him out to the swamp-site.
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(Peter) Lees' defection across the Atlantic touched off a major scandal, as furious readers sounded off in Country Life with a chorus of condemnation and disapproval. First this arrogant Macdonald sailed over and plagiarized their finest golf holes, and now he was stealing Peter Lees from their shores to grow grass for a new course - in America yet!
But the transition was anything but smooth, as related by Horace Hutchinson in an article in (British) Country Life in 1914. The following exchange was witnessed first hand by famous golfer and writer, James S. Worthington when Peter Lees was shown the would-be construction site for the first time:
"It was a strange sight to see the famous Peter Lees, when on one bleak day, escorted to the spot by some of the bold pioneers of the Lido Club, he first cast eyes on this veritable desert. Arriving at Long Beach (Island) the party proceeded by slow stages through the sand and bent to their destination. The wind whistles about their ears and blown sand hit into their eyes".
"Eventually a halt was called. Peter looked at his companions and they looked at him. The situation looked gloomy in the extreme. An impasse was at hand. Feeling something was expected of him, Peter in gentle accents, inquired, ‘Where is the course goin' to be?’”.
One of the founders, a bit sheepishly, waved his arm out towards the panorama of sand - and mostly water.
"Oh, all around here," he replied
Peter Lees couldn't believe his eyes. A dour man, he had been offered some silly propositions in his time, but this was the limit. Had he come clear across the Atlantic to see this?
"Oh, is that so,?" retorted Lees. "Well then, if that's the case, I am goin'' 'ome!"
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Obviously routing a site, particularly one that has a ton of natural assets and topography and such for the best individual holes it may offer just may not get you even close to an ideal golf course in the sense those holes are in the right place and of the right type to conform to what most have considered really good balance and variety in a routing or sequential sense.
That fact seems to be one of the lesser known aspects about great natural sites and great routings, at least in an ideal balance and variety and sequential sense. It's a lot easier to produce a great routing in a balance and variety and sequential sense on a site that basically offers few natural obstacles to that goal, but the fact is to get really good holes on a site that has a lot less natural assets the architect will need to make a lot more himself simply because there just isn't that much of interest to use to come up with an ideal course in an individual hole sense.
TE - thanks. That's a balanced perspective, and more balanced than I'm prone to offering myself. I've mentioned this before, but I remember reading that the Navajos would purposely weave a little mistake into their beautiful blankets, "just to let the devil out". I've never been sure what that act meant to them, but maybe it had something to do with recognizing (and at the same time honouring) the fact that in this life we don't get to be perfect, i.e. that the natural world is a place of beautiful and sacred IMPERFECTION. The pursuit of the "ideal" course with 18 great holes -- especially when it's being created from scratch -- seems to me to misunderstand both the essence of the art of golf course architecture and what makes that art unique, i.e. that when working with nature as your partner, there's no such thing as perfect. Golfers and golf course architects should be the last to bemoan the fact; we should be celebrating it instead. After all, we're talking about golf courses, not skyscrapers.
Peter
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George
Thanks for posting it the right way round. What were you doing with a reverse version?
TE, yes you have to watch out for those NOOGALs, but don't overcompensate and hit it into the NAECO.
You'll definitely be in the TIHS then.
Neil
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Neil
is this a northern hemisphere corolois effect thing?
James B
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James
is that the reason you can't spell Coriolis? ;D
Neil
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George
Thanks for posting it the right way round. What were you doing with a reverse version?
...........hah - a "west coast" version with the ocean on the opposite side :P :P (US west coast to you ;D)
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GeorgeB:
You know some of the remarks in the posts on this thread have definitely got me thinking about Macdonald and his modus operandi on some of the courses he is credited with. I realize you can only speculate with an answer but nevertheless, the question is how much time do you suppose Macdonald every really spent on the projects he did other than NGLA?
I have no basis for saying it but something tells me Mid Ocean is the one he may've spent the most time and effort on behind NGLA. I ask this question because it seems sort of strange to me that Macdonald would complain some years later that the fill contractor did not put the undulations he wanted into some of the holes and fairways of The Lido. It sure seems like the prinicipals gave him carte blanche and a ton of money for the course so why didn't he see to it that the contractors got it right?
For reasons of his intimate involvment with the club (he was the president of the Kellenworth corporation, the holding company) something also tells me he was intimately involved in the design and maturation of The Creek Club too.
How about The Links? That one seemed like another of his personal pet projects?
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James
is that the reason you can't spell Coriolis? ;D
Neil
No
just my bad.
I was impressed with George Bahto's 'West coast' version comment. Many a true word spoken in jest George. Down here in OZ, we think of East and West as Asia and Europe/North America/Australia etc. I suspect East is also quite distant from West within the USA!
James B
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"The Lido project began in 1914 about the time Hitler was terrorizing Europe."
Hold the phone. I thought Blutarsky said Hitler bombed Pearl Harbor.
Bob
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"Hold the phone. I thought Blutarsky said Hitler bombed Pearl Harbor."
That is the new thinking, Roberto, and some now believe Macdonald/Whigam actually designed the "plan" for it.
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TEP -
The thing about Mid-O is that RTJ made a number of changes in the 60's, but after many rounds there I'm still unclear about what is RTJ and what is CBM. Some stuff is oviously one or the other, but a lot is not easily assignable.
As you know CBM had a home on the pond next to the Cape Hole. I assume he spent a lot time there. But the details of the pre-RTJ course aren't easy to find. If Tom Doak has something, many of us would love to see it.
Bob
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Bob - what happened at MO is really clouded and hard to get any good info.
For years I've been trying to get what CBM and SR actually put "on the ground" at Mid Ocean
Tom, consults there and he hasn't been able to come up with anything substantial either
There is a basic plan in Scotland's Gift but it doesn't have enuf info on it aside from it being just conceptual.
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GeorgeB:
I met a man at the Macdonald Cup at Creek last year from Mid Ocean and he sure knows the story of what happened with MO. We talked a lot about it but it was pretty hard for me to follow without some kind of plan in my hand. I think the gist of it was they sold some land (not necessarily on the golf course itself) that pretty much required that some holes had to be changed in various ways. It was interesting, however, that this man clearly had in the back of his mind how to put it back the way it once was as much as would be possible given the foregoing.
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George_Bahto writes:
The Lido project began in 1914 about the time Hitler was terrorizing Europe
Unless we are talking the young Corporal Hitler, you are off by about a generation.
Many course were lost because of the great depression, I always assumed Lido was one of them. Do you know anything about Santa Cruz Golf and Country Club in Pogonip? The property was impressive, but I've found little mention of the golf course. It existed from around 1914 to 1935.
Cheers,
Dan King
The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it.
--Adolf Hitler
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Dan
SCG&CC was founded in 1911. In 1930 it was 5425 yards par 68. 2 miles from the city.
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Dan
While you are on a roll, how about the Capitola Golf and Country Club, built and NLE in the 1920's? As I remember, there are some great old photos in the local history museum.
rich
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"The Lido project began in 1914 about the time Hitler was terrorizing Europe."
Hold the phone. I thought Blutarsky said Hitler bombed Pearl Harbor.
Bob
"Don't stop him, he's on a roll."
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So, The Lido was 6400 yards according to the first article. I think the marketing of golf courses must have really changed somewhere over the last century. CB Macdonald said ...
"The width of the fair green will vary from 45 to 60 yards, according to the character of the hole. The teeing grounds will be 40 to 50 yards in length and quite in close proximity to the putting greens. The lengths are from the middle of the tee to the middle of the green, which means every hole can be shortened or lengthened 30 to 40 yards."
Today, that same course would have been promoted as 7000 yards but probably with fairways half the width. To be fair, I was impressed that the USGA would play its Open with the tees as far forward on some holes as it did (I think Augusta did the same). Perhaps this will gradually filter down to local Club management and we will have some variety again.
James B
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JamesB:
As far as I can tell fairways back in those days were mostly pretty much of a "standardized" width and the numbers Macdonald mentioned and was using with Lido were pretty much it. Today most fairways seem to be of basically standardized width around 30-35 yards.
I have never been able to determine why the basically standardized width back then was what it was. Some like Matt Shaeffer of Merion think it was pretty much a function of those old tractor drawn gang mowers which could be pretty wide.
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The 4th Lido:
I personally think the direct route to the green at 4-Lido was too penal which caused most golfers to select the 3-shot route, negating much of the choice.
Fortunately Macdonald (and Raynor) decided to use it early in the front 9. At least if you screwed it up (easy to do) you had 14 holes left.
Remember there were winds at Lido and the 4th was very susceptible to a left to right, off ocean wind so a faded ball to the risk fairway could easily blow off the course into the channel.
Off fairway was sand and sea bents. The raised risk-fairway was considerably higher than the safer-route fairway. That route had all water all along the left and sidehill sand hazard on the (slice-side) right on the tee shot.
At Old Macdonald this “hole strategy” falls late in the round and a strong effort will be made to make both routes to the green the be both attractive off the tee as well as confusing and confounding off the tee.
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g85/ggb313/new%20ggb313/sharing-Lido04Channelcolorandtitled.jpg)
I'm bumping this whole thread based on the other discussion on Lido. I'd rather talk wildly about Lido with 30+ posts then talking about Pine Valley during Open week.
Anyway, this hole still exists. RTJ left it essentially unchanged in the new routing, and it is hole 16 (I think - it's been several years since I've played the RTJ Lido). It's a very clever hole, and the jewel of the course. Unfortunately, driver is simply not a realistic option off the tee. For all but the best players, and in all but the quietest winds, this means playing an iron off the tee into the center of the dual fairway, then playing a second shot into the layup area.
The current green is not spectacular - I assume the original contours have not been maintained.
I'd love more discussion on this hole - it is certainly one of the best I've played, and on what is otherwise a relatively mundane course.
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Justin,
The current hole at the RTJ Lido course is not the same hole that CBM built, but a clever reproduction on a different site.
The entirety of the original Lido course was west of today's public course, as proven here some time back by Tommy Naccarato with aerial photos.
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I'm bumping this very good thread I stumbled across. It makes me wonder if Lido might have been the precursor to a lot of the modern courses where the ground game is not an option. It seems as if there were a lot of forced carries. Was Lido supposed to be a resort course, or was it a private club?
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If I recall correctly, Coore & Crenshaw have a very similar hole (the fourth) in their proposed routing for Pinehurst No. 9.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=54438.0
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The current RTJ Lido hole is different to the schematic above...
It was discussed in another thread some time ago; I will see if I can find it.
The "new" 16th has less of a pay off from the drive. The island landing area is in fact a split fairway, and there is no real advantage to be gained by going either way.
The drive is made harder by the fact that you can't see the landing area, it's obscured by reads and the like, so it's tough to judge yardages... from memory it certainly wasn't a driver.
Still a good hole, but what's the point of a split fairway if there is no pay off either way?!
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Here it is, great aerial pic too:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53603.0.html
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I think Lido is one of the most fascinating topics on GCA.com. I don't have anything to contribute (yet) other than to say I enjoy reading all information that comes to light and is written.
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We will have a hole something like the fourth at Lido at Old Macdonald on hole #17. The Lido hole was inspired by a hole at Littlestone, England which did not have any water in play...
Which hole at Littlestone was the inspiration for the 4th at Lido?
All the best.
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We will have a hole something like the fourth at Lido at Old Macdonald on hole #17. The Lido hole was inspired by a hole at Littlestone, England which did not have any water in play...
Which hole at Littlestone was the inspiration for the 4th at Lido?
All the best.
#16. There used to be fairway left of the huge bunker now on the left edge of the fairway. Apparently growth of vehicular traffic over there caused the club to abandon this alternate fairway. Now it's deep hay. We almost lost Mike Malone over there! ;D
Here's a diagram from the strokesaver. You can see all the room left of the LH fairway bunker. That was the alternate fairway which made it easier to get there in two.
(http://www.littlestonegolfclub.org.uk/files/littlestonegolfclub.org.uk/195/hole_plan_16.jpg)
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I think Lido is one of the most fascinating topics on GCA.com. I don't have anything to contribute (yet) other than to say I enjoy reading all information that comes to light and is written.
Josh,
"The Evangelist of Golf" has a chapter on it.
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We will have a hole something like the fourth at Lido at Old Macdonald on hole #17. The Lido hole was inspired by a hole at Littlestone, England which did not have any water in play...
Which hole at Littlestone was the inspiration for the 4th at Lido?
All the best.
#16. There used to be fairway left of the huge bunker now on the left edge of the fairway. Apparently growth of vehicular traffic over there caused the club to abandon this alternate fairway. Now it's deep hay. We almost lost Mike Malone over there! ;D
Here's a diagram from the strokesaver. You can see all the room left of the LH fairway bunker. That was the alternate fairway which made it easier to get there in two.
(http://www.littlestonegolfclub.org.uk/files/littlestonegolfclub.org.uk/195/hole_plan_16.jpg)
I think the tee was further left as well to make the left fairway a bit more enticing.
Somebody mentioned penal holes from back in the day. After I played Brancaster I thought it must have seemed extraordinarily penal to folks 100 years ago. But then seasoned golfers from the 19th century would have been well used to blind shots over hills where a minimum carry was required.
Ciao
Ciao
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Old friends of mine used to play Lido and they told me it was spectacular.
Sadly, they're now in the "fairway in the sky" and I can't ask them all of the questions I'd like to ask.
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I think Lido is one of the most fascinating topics on GCA.com. I don't have anything to contribute (yet) other than to say I enjoy reading all information that comes to light and is written.
Josh,
"The Evangelist of Golf" has a chapter on it.
I thought that there was and I would love to read the entire book, unfortunately 300 bucks is a bit too much for me. Maybe one day I'll find a copy.
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I think Lido is one of the most fascinating topics on GCA.com. I don't have anything to contribute (yet) other than to say I enjoy reading all information that comes to light and is written.
Josh,
"The Evangelist of Golf" has a chapter on it.
I thought that there was and I would love to read the entire book, unfortunately 300 bucks is a bit too much for me. Maybe one day I'll find a copy.
I'm in the same boat. My wife just told me "Tell me what books you want for Christmas and I'll get them?" So I'm going to take a life insurance policy out on her and tell her Evangelist of Golf, Confidential Guide, and The Life and work of Alister Mackenzie. I'll use the life insurance money to buy the books after she has the big one at the Amazon checkout ;)