Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mark Bourgeois on October 23, 2007, 10:51:02 PM
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The walker's mantra is, "Tees close to greens." And yet on some otherwise very walkable courses you come upon a longish green-to-tee walk.
When done right, I have not considered these walks routing flaws at all. To me, they are like pauses -- or even better, like passageways, wormholes into the odyssey that is the round of golf. (It is said there are seven basic stories, one of which being "odyssey," the hero's taxing journey home.)
I think of them as wormholes because they are most effective when there is a sense of the golfer's "detachment" or "embarkation" from the "civilized world;" e.g., a connection to the clubhouse.
My question is, despite my appreciation, would any designer whose stated aim was a walkable course consciously introduce a wormhole? Or do you always consider these unfortunate concessions to an otherwise-excellent routing? (And how would Desmond Muirhead answer these questions?)
For me, the two criteria that make for excellent wormholes are:
1. Reasonably early in the round, although I think Yale gets away with a mid-round one; and
2. The course post-wormhole is somehow disconnected from the clubhouse, or from other parts of the course.
(I have yet to find a wormhole on a links but remain hopeful. Maybe one of those links with massive landforms...)
Even if they don't quite meet the criteria, I still like them as pauses. You know, "palate cleansers." IMHO, to be of high quality as a palate cleanser, the passageway must "manifest the sacred" of the location: they should use fauna unique to the place, not simply throw us into the rat hole that is a generic one-mile concrete cartpath. (Although I accept that might actually "manifest the sacred" of South Florida.)
Here are a few examples.
1. Yale, from 9 green to 10 tee: not including cart path, there actually is a choice of high road or low road. The high road feels more like a wormhole, for it is a walk through woods that disconnects you from the 9th very effectively. It involves exertion. It also feels like a wormhole because once you're off the 10th tee, your departure from "civilization" is realized. On the first nine holes, you're sort of bouncing around, never all that far from the clubhouse, or at least never feeling a sense of estrangement.
I liken playing the front nine to running from store to store, collecting provisions for the treacherous ocean crossing ahead.
Hitting off 10 tee then is the departure. I always found the back nine like an odyssey: you really don't see much of the other holes or other golfers. You do see a few telecommunication towers off to the side of 11, but those always seemed somehow remote. I never did have a good sense of where I was on the back nine, unlike on the front, for some reason...
2. Durban, post 3rd. This one felt like a departure, too, coming as it does early in the round. You will not see the clubhouse again until you reach 18 tee.
The road to estrangement at least is paved, even if the palm fronds look like evil mitts about to drag you into the darkness that lay just off the path...
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Durban/L1000436.jpg)
The next three feel more like palate cleansers than wormholes.
3. Barnbougle dunes, post 4th. This one has elements of the wormhole. It's early in the round, and as the path brings you into contact with Anderson Bay and "die ausland," it does introduce a beautiful desolation. (I saw only one person on the beach the entire time I spent on that path.)
The long walk from 4 green
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Barnbougle%20Dunes/L1020915a.jpg)
4. Hong Kong Golf Club, post 16th.
In the footsteps of Caddie #361
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Hong%20Kong%20Golf%20Club/L1020813.jpg)
5. Rockport Country Club, post 10th. This one's not necessarily too late to rise above palate cleanser to wormhole, but post-10 the course doesn't feel that different than pre-10. Live oaks (the mighty Quercus virginiana!) are particular to the Gulf Coast, though, and so like all the other pictures in this post flora are used if not to manifest the sacred, then at least to help us appreciate the specialness of this place.
Beautiful canopy
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Rockport/077.jpg)
Do you have any favorites?
Mark
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The title pretty much blew my mind so I can't get into the initial post.
Maybe next month. ;)
Are GOLFCLUBATLASERS maybe trying to get a little too clever in the threads and posts they make?
I guess I shouldn't talk.
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Ugh, that title does sound like a paper rejected from a conference on "Physics for English Majors."
Lemme see if I can fix it...
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...how's that?
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Mark,
You're a trip, man.
There's an executive course in New Jersey called Bel-Aire that has something like what you're talking about where if memory serves, you play about 10 holes, and then walk down along a narrow corridor for what seems like a mile to play another 6 or so, before retracing your steps and coming home the last two. A Hal Purdy deal...
A more modern course that comes to mind, with mandatory carts, is White Clay Creek in Wilmington Delaware, which is built around Delaware Park horse racing track.
After two holes, the drive to the third takes you around the whole back stretch of the practice race track, and lends an integral feel to a very strange and extremely penal golf course.
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I would hesitate to use the word always. If there is a long walk between a green and a tee, there better be a pretty good GCA reason for it.
The longest walk I can recall is on the back nine at Highland Links on Cape Breton (between the 13th gree/14th tee, I think). It is a beautiful walk of at least 300 yards along a large stream.
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I wish somebody had some pictures of the walk between the 5th and 6th tees at Kapalua.
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I wish somebody had some pictures of the walk between the 5th and 6th tees at Kapalua.
That'd be a short film, not a picture. ;)
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I'm not sure how many people really walk Blackwolf Run River, but there is a walk between the original holes and the holes built when the courses were separated. The walks come between holes 4 & 5 and 13 & 14. Its not ideal but its a neat little walk in the woods.
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Mark:
Great topic.
I think I have one for you -- Stonehaven Golf Club, near Aberdeen in Scotland. The course is set on something like 63 acres, and plays to a par of 66 at @ 5,100 acres.
Some might view it as not classically links, but its turf is pretty springy and it does sit right beside the North Sea. It's more of a cliff-top course (think Old Head in Ireland), but it's subject to pretty strong winds and plays much like a links.
Stonehaven is an odd little course, with several unconventional-length holes and others that are best described as WT??? It has a bunker named after Adolf Hitler, features several dramatic par 3s with tees sitting on the very edge of the cliffs, and significant carries over deep ravines. It can run hot or cold with folks; Finegan, writing in "Blasted Heaths and Blessed Greens," loved it as perhaps the epitome of Scottish holiday golf. The terrain of much of the course slopes significantly from the clubhouse (which sits on the highest point of the course, just off the Aberdeen-to-Stonehaven road) down toward the cliffs, and it even has a hole -- Jake's View -- that crosses not one but two fairways. In the middle of the course runs the Aberdeen-Stonehaven railroad commuter line, and you sometimes have to pause in your backswing to wait out the commuter cars that go zip-zip-zipping through the course.
But then, in the middle of all this hubble-bubble, comes a serene four-hole stretch. The course couldn't fit all 18 holes on the land adjacent the clifftops, so it put four par 4s -- 416 to 272 yds in length -- in a meadow on the north side of the railroad commuter line. The walk from the 8th to the 9th hole (the first of the meadow holes) is a long one, easily 200-plus yards. The meadow holes are one big loop, and you return to the cliffside holes to finish out the course on the same path.
It's like night and day -- the meadow holes are on much softer turf, with fairways and greens framed by trees; it's like setting foot on your average muni in Wisconsin. You play your four holes, and then are transformed back into the wild tumult of Stonehaven's clifftop, oddly canted holes.
Some pics here, though none of the meadow holes:
http://www.stonehavengolfclub.com/our_course.htm
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I wish somebody had some pictures of the walk between the 5th and 6th tees at Kapalua.
That'd be a short film, not a picture. ;)
This is the best picture I could find, out of those that I took.
You have to go through the ravine from the 5th hole across to reach the tee box from where this was taken.
(http://a656.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/73/l_2230c49b7828160a3dff931f6886797f.jpg)
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Mark
I like the original title better. A wise poster once said, "Obey Tom Paul only at the peril of your credibility." ;)
For a wormhole to be interesting there has to be something better than a worm at the end of it (maybe even a pony?), or at least the sensation of "and now for something completely different!" The walk at Crail which Sean mentions just doesn't do that for me. The holes it leads to just aren't good or interesting enough. Same with the walk from 10 to 11 at Kingsbarns.
One other observation. These wormholes (like the ones in Physics theory) are very fragile. 25 years ago, there was a great one between 2 and 3 at Dornoch before they screwed around with the the 3rd tee. Now, you bump into the 18th tee on your way to the third, and a lot of the magic is gone. Conversely, the walk from 6 to 7 at Dornoch used to be not much more than a cardiac stress test, leading to a fairly dull looking hole. Now, however, with the new tee at the end of the slog you get not only a much better golf hole, but also an incredible view back over the rest of the course and to the sea and hills beyond.
Rich
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Does the trek from 5 to 6 tee at PBeach qualify as a wormhole?....or a casting? ;)
I appreciate the time you spend on your threads Mark.
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Cape Breton Highlands Links has a great walk from 12 to 13
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/capebreton2.html
(2nd picture)
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I'm someone who usually bitches about long walks from green to tee, but have to agree that sometimes they work. The example of Yale's 9th to the 10th is a good one. That walk sort of allows you to catch your breath (assuming you take the low road) before tackling the second 9. It sort of prepares you for the isolation of the back.
If most people that play the course ride, the long walk should come after a challenging par 3 or short par 5 or else the walkers have to hustle to stay ahead of riders.
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The walk from the 11th green to the 12th tee at Rick Smith/Warren Henderson's Shenendoah GC at Turning Stone in Verona, NY is a classic.
You basically walk/ride the length of the par four 14th hole backwards, climb a rise and then loop around the back of the 13th green, and Voila!, you reach the 12th.
On foot, it's about say 15 minutes. :P
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Mark:
A good topic.
I doubt that in any of the cases you cite, the architect could have chosen instead a very good hole with the tee close to the previous green. Terrain sometimes gets in the way of this when you have decided to use an especially cool green site for the previous hole. However, it's certainly more acceptable to leave a walk between holes when there is some natural beauty to be appreciated on the way.
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I've never been there...but folks have talked about a walk thru a tree canopy from 15 to 16 at CPC...anyone care to "yeah" or "nay" that one?
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Surely the answer to the question is "no, not always." But I think Erin Hills has many long walks--or drives, as most people encounter it--that could have been avoided.
Mr. Doak,
perhaps you've explained this before, but would you mind commenting on the walk between 11 and 12 at Pacific Dunes? I make it about 130-150 yards using Google Earth's ruler. The 5th tee is between 11 and 12, and 4 is right next to 12, so I can think of many possible reasons, but it would be great to hear the straight scoop. One of my good friends with sophisticated golfing tastes said it was the only thing he didn't like about the course, and I tried to defend it without success.
Thanks!
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It is not so much 15 to 16, but 14 to 15 at Cypress. I think, in general, the crossing of the threshold at Seventeen Mile Drive is an extraordinary passage at Cypress — the anticipation, the stage and the momentary wait are all such a great part of the round.
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It is not so much 15 to 16, but 14 to 15 at Cypress. I think, in general, the crossing of the threshold at Seventeen Mile Drive is an extraordinary passage at Cypress — the anticipation, the stage and the momentary wait are all such a great part of the round.
Great call Evan, and man as I read through this thread I was wondering what the heck took you all so long to mention 15 green to 16 tee at Cypress.
And I must disagree with my man Forrest. On, 14 green to 15 tee is a nice walk, and crossing the threshold of 17 Mile Drive is meaningful, but to me it pales compared to the walk of all walks, which is what 15 gree to 16 tee is to me.
See, if you're a red-blooded great golf hole-loving golfer, your thoughts about 16 started about two miliseconds after you got the invitation to play the course. 15 also is looked forward to, but 16 is the big deal. How you did on 16 is what you're gonna tell your buddies about. 16 is where you're gonna take pictures, if you are into such things. 16 is where you're gonna measure your success on the round - you could botch all other 17 holes, but if you get one on 16 green, you go home happy.
So the anticipation is freakin' palbable... and it grows and grows and grows as the round goes on... until you finally get to 15, which of course is a fabulous golf hole in its own right. So you concentrate on playing that, until you putt out... and then the tought is "holy shit, we're here"....
Only you're not.
You walk off 15 gree and you go through the tree canopy.. where is 16? You know it's there because you saw 16 green from 15 tee, off in the distance. But it's hidden by the trees..... only then what's that, a gap in the trees reveals the green again... but then it closes up and you keep walking... only to emerge on the tee, and jesus h. christ, there it is, it is real, what an incredible sight.
Now THAT is a walk.
;D
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I don't know what to make of the CPC 15 -> 16 walk. That doesn't sound like a wormhole or a palate cleanser.
But the passage across 17-mile drive definitely sounds wormhole. The more I see of this MacKenzie guy, the more I believe a certain type of genius possessed him.
John M, you've definitely captured the essence of that Yale walk, and more broadly what I was getting at, in mentioning "the desolation of the back."
It's nice to see a number of architects looking in, because as I think about your comment it gets to this idea that at one level, the routing must be functional; i.e., short walks. But there's this higher level, too, which makes you think that maybe after all the golf course architect may aspire to true artistry.
This higher level is the concept of the routing taking into account things like local scenery, odysseys and being "cast out" after the first holes that stay close to the Edenic clubhouse, etc. etc.
It's this idea of not simply how the golfers should play a hole, and get from one hole to the next, but how architects can play on golfers' emotions and attitudes via the route they lead them on, and the timing of things like longish walks. You know, a links can play on these emotions using weather and the typical out and back routing. The wind and elements can create a fantastic sense of estrangement, not only from golfers on other holes but even sometimes from those in your group.
(It would be something to consider a clubhouse "physically estranged" from most of the course due to a large landform. You play the first and last holes on the clubhouse side, and then it's over to the other side for the adventure. I need to find out more about the links mentioned in the posts.)
And that's what I'd like to know: is it possible for architects to consciously and purposely factor into a routing the impact of wormholes and palate cleansers, and plan them, or is that just too complicated -- is it hard enough just to get the holes themselves located without having to think about something as inane as an "inter-golfing" walk?
Are you better off just trying to work out the tightest (green -> tee) routing you can, and if one a longish walk must be included, then you have to do it, and it's regrettable? I infer from Tom Doak's comment that walks are regrettable tradeoffs of fantastic green sites, and you hope there's a nice walk to make up for it.
But that doesn't get at what comes next, the idea that a wormhole "sets up" the golfer for the "something different" that's coming.
Now, John and Tom, regarding that walk on Yale, that long walk actually may have been the product of the failure to build 36 holes -- or at least put the clubhouse between 9 green and 10 tee.
I am looking at the original 36-hole routing map for the course. It's a fairly rudimentary map, and although it does have topo lines, the holes are done in basic watercolor and are rectilinear -- 9 green doesn't look anything like a Biarritz. (Doesn't necessarily look due to the rudimentary nature of the green, either -- hmm...)
Enough of that, I assume this map's been discussed on here before -- but originally, the clubhouse was to sit on Greist Pond, next to 9 green, and 10 tee was meant to be on the other side of the clubhouse.
Furthermore, originally the 10th was to be 420 yards, not the 396 yards of today. So that would have shortened the walk as well.
Of further interest, there was to be a tee not too far behind 9 green. This was to be the 15th tee of the second, never-built 18.
All of this I guess is a long-winded way of confirming the walk at Yale was an accident, the residue of design, and therefore fails the "artists' intent" test, although I think the effect is a powerful one.
Mark
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We must not forget the walk from 6 to 7 at the beloved Sandpines.
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I always think about 11 to 12 at Crystal Downs with respect to this topic because it strikes me as odd after the previous 11 holes so tightly knit together. Too bad the road is right there to lessen the serene feeling. It makes me sad making that walk because I know I only have 7 holes left to play. :'(
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Conversely, the walk from 6 to 7 at Dornoch used to be not much more than a cardiac stress test, leading to a fairly dull looking hole. Now, however, with the new tee at the end of the slog you get not only a much better golf hole, but also an incredible view back over the rest of the course and to the sea and hills beyond.
Rich
Nevertheless, it's still a slog, as is the climb to 9 at Cruden Bay.
Thankfully, the big climb at Lundin is between the tee and green on 12. I recall having to hit a greenside bunker shot while trying to catch my breath there.
Ken
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I don't know what to make of the CPC 15 -> 16 walk. That doesn't sound like a wormhole or a palate cleanser.
But the passage across 17-mile drive definitely sounds wormhole. The more I see of this MacKenzie guy, the more I believe a certain type of genius possessed him.\
Mark - 14 to 15 is no wormhole, it's a walk across a road. It is a palate cleanser though.
15-16 is definitely a wormhole as you've defined it. And it's also one hell of a palate cleanser given the totally different, and totally historic, shot one is to hit on 16....
Don't mess with me, man!
;D ;D
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It is not so much 15 to 16, but 14 to 15 at Cypress. I think, in general, the crossing of the threshold at Seventeen Mile Drive is an extraordinary passage at Cypress — the anticipation, the stage and the momentary wait are all such a great part of the round.
Great call Evan, and man as I read through this thread I was wondering what the heck took you all so long to mention 15 green to 16 tee at Cypress.
And I must disagree with my man Forrest. On, 14 green to 15 tee is a nice walk, and crossing the threshold of 17 Mile Drive is meaningful, but to me it pales compared to the walk of all walks, which is what 15 gree to 16 tee is to me.
See, if you're a red-blooded great golf hole-loving golfer, your thoughts about 16 started about two miliseconds after you got the invitation to play the course. 15 also is looked forward to, but 16 is the big deal. How you did on 16 is what you're gonna tell your buddies about. 16 is where you're gonna take pictures, if you are into such things. 16 is where you're gonna measure your success on the round - you could botch all other 17 holes, but if you get one on 16 green, you go home happy.
So the anticipation is freakin' palbable... and it grows and grows and grows as the round goes on... until you finally get to 15, which of course is a fabulous golf hole in its own right. So you concentrate on playing that, until you putt out... and then the tought is "holy shit, we're here"....
Only you're not.
You walk off 15 gree and you go through the tree canopy.. where is 16? You know it's there because you saw 16 green from 15 tee, off in the distance. But it's hidden by the trees..... only then what's that, a gap in the trees reveals the green again... but then it closes up and you keep walking... only to emerge on the tee, and jesus h. christ, there it is, it is real, what an incredible sight.
Now THAT is a walk.
;D
Tom,
That has just rekindled many wonderful memories from earlier in the year and summed it up perfectly as far as I’m concerned!
Oh, and I happened to make a 3… ;)
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Tom B - my pleasure! It was fun to write that and relive it for me as well.
I made a 3 last time myself. Welcome to the brotherhood.
;D ;D ;D
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Conversely, the walk from 6 to 7 at Dornoch used to be not much more than a cardiac stress test, leading to a fairly dull looking hole. Now, however, with the new tee at the end of the slog you get not only a much better golf hole, but also an incredible view back over the rest of the course and to the sea and hills beyond.
Rich
Nevertheless, it's still a slog, as is the climb to 9 at Cruden Bay.
Thankfully, the big climb at Lundin is between the tee and green on 12. I recall having to hit a greenside bunker shot while trying to catch my breath there.
Ken
At least the walks at both Cruden Bay and Dornoch are rewarded by views at the top. I can think of several long walks at resort type courses in England (Hollins Hall, Forest Pines etc) with no similar reward.
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What about the walk from 16 to 17 at Sawgrass? Isn't it just long enough to make the pros start sweating just a little more. After a birdie hole, they regroup and make the march to 17. Don't know if intentional or not, but Dye certainly has a way of getting into people's minds.
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Mark,
While not as charming as the holes pictured the long walk between #5 and #6 at Rolling Green is through trees that were on the course at its opening in 1926, does occur far from the clubhouse , and is relatively early in the round.
It also is the first opportunity to see fellow members on the back nine (#17).
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I think it's nice that you guys are acknowledging that a green-to-tee walk can be a pleasant interlude within the round; I'm just telling you that they are usually a fact of the routing process which cannot be avoided. The walk is a function of getting you to where the next tee needs to be.
Examples:
The walk from 15 to 16 at Cypress Point is great, but I think it's entirely a function of the decision to make #16 a par three, and not a short par-4 from further back. The greens on 15 and 16 were non-negotiable, MacKenzie deemed the walk + the par-3 to be better than the par-4.
The walk from 11 to 12 at Crystal Downs is unavoidable. There is 90 feet of elevation change from the bottom of 11 to the 12th tee, most of it on a 15% slope behind the 11th green. If you wanted to play the five holes up top [12-16], you had to surmount that hill, and it was too severe to play a fairway up it. So, MacKenzie sets a green into the slope as far up as he thinks you can stand it, and then you walk the rest of the way. [Note also that the difficult hole #17 traverses this steep section of the property in reverse.]
The walk from 16 to 17 at TPC Sawgrass is a function of getting around the peninsula spectator mound which used to reside between the two holes ... plus it's a long way from 16 green to 18 tee and 17 is only 140 yards.
The walk from 11 to 12 at Pacific Dunes (and also the walk from 3 to 4) is a function of trying to get the routing so that there was a hole with the cliff on the right (#4) in between the two holes with the cliff to the left (#11 and #13). To do so, we had to get from #3 green around #12 green to #4 tee, and from #11 green around #5 tee to #12 tee. Originally, we wanted to use the back of #5 tee for #12 to shorten the walk, but we decided that people would try to play backwards down #4 fairway from that angle, so we moved all the tees for #12 up to the right, which increases the walk. We felt we could get away with that because you're walking along the oceanfront -- the walk is very much the same as the walk from 4 to 5 at Barnbougle, except that you've already seen lots of ocean by then at Pacific.
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We must not forget the walk from 6 to 7 at the beloved Sandpines.
Yes, we must
;)
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I think it's nice that you guys are acknowledging that a green-to-tee walk can be a pleasant interlude within the round; I'm just telling you that they are usually a fact of the routing process which cannot be avoided. The walk is a function of getting you to where the next tee needs to be.
Examples:
The walk from 15 to 16 at Cypress Point is great, but I think it's entirely a function of the decision to make #16 a par three, and not a short par-4 from further back. The greens on 15 and 16 were non-negotiable, MacKenzie deemed the walk + the par-3 to be better than the par-4.
Does that take away it's greatness in any way?
I am asking that as a serious question. I don't think it does, but I'm interested in the opinion of others.
TH
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Isn't it interesting how so many have described walks they are familiar with at least partly in emotional terms? It doesn't sound like architects play much to that...
Hey, if MacKenzie could have built a short 4 instead of a 3, but chose the 3+walk, then that walk doesn't sound like "a part of the routing process which cannot be avoided."
Or is that somehow the exception that proves the rule?
Taking this thread in even more-obtuse directions, is there some connection between landscape architecture (which sometimes "told stories") and this aspect of routing? Well, didn't medieval mazes intend to replicate odysseys and paths to salvation / enlightenment etc.? Like wormholes and palate cleansers, they sought to induce reflection, right? That corn maze you got lost in last week, did that trigger despair?
Mark
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The walk from 11 to 12 at Crystal Downs is unavoidable. There is 90 feet of elevation change from the bottom of 11 to the 12th tee, most of it on a 15% slope behind the 11th green. If you wanted to play the five holes up top [12-16], you had to surmount that hill, and it was too severe to play a fairway up it. So, MacKenzie sets a green into the slope as far up as he thinks you can stand it, and then you walk the rest of the way. [Note also that the difficult hole #17 traverses this steep section of the property in reverse.]
Tom:
Thanks for the insight! That just adds to the brilliance of that golf course, because the elevation gain doesn't jump out at you. I guess the path has more slope to it than I remember. As I said earlier, it strikes me as unique since the rest of the course is so intimate.
I thought of another emotion that I feel taking that walk (in addition to sadness for only having 7 holes left). It's normally quiet rage since I would have routinely doubled #11. >:(
Regards,
Sobe
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Mark:
When I first ventured on the long path at Stonehaven away from the clifftop holes into the meadow -- you actually go underneath the commuter railroad tracks -- I sort of resented it, thinking: I'm having way too much fun out here amongst the crazy carries and 200-foot dropoffs, why this mundane stuff?
But after my round, over a pint on the clubhouse, I actually reconsidered my initial thought, and realized the four meadow holes represented something like an afternoon nap, or perhaps more appropriately a slower, softer section of a symphony.
I don't know, and sort of doubt, this was a deliberate effort by the course designer (Braid had a hand in Stonehaven's routing and design, although how much of one, I'm not sure). It seems the club wanted 18 holes, and given the limitations of the clifftop site, it simply went for the quiet interlude of the meadow holes.
The first hole (# 13) after the four-hole meadow loop is a short par 4 with a nerve-wracking carry over a deep ravine. I distinctly remember thinking to myself on the tee: OK, leisure time is over, gear up for this shot. That you can see the tee shot demanded on #13 on the walk to the meadow holes makes it even more of an interesting walk and time spent on the quiet solitude of those holes.
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CPC 15 - 16.
Dance of The Seven Veils...
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/Fatbaldydrummer/CPC23-1.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/Fatbaldydrummer/CPC25.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/Fatbaldydrummer/CPC24.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/Fatbaldydrummer/CPC27.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/Fatbaldydrummer/CPC28.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/Fatbaldydrummer/CPC29.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/Fatbaldydrummer/CPC30.jpg)
No expl. nec.
FBD.
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Martin,
Er, actually...this walk everyone's talking about (geez, you'd think this was a muni; so many on here have played it), is it that tunnel through the trees behind the green in the second and third pics?
And do you have pics of this other walk people have posted about?
Do you recall your thoughts through these passages?
Mark
As an aside, you know, if you wrap a little analysis around those pics then the post can be defended as something more than shameless pornography, a sop to we sans culottes and petit-bourgeoisie...
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Mark,
er, actually, yes it is. The first pic explains the fact that you see 16 BEFORE you see 15......there is a neat little bit of geology/geography which conceals the 15th green until you are practically on the tee, but 16 has been visible as you cross 17 mile drive from 14 green - I think!!! More regular visitors may be able to confirm or otherwise. I WAS very HIGH on adrenaline/endorphines/testosterone/maybe even a little oestrogen at the time, you see...!
16 then sits in your frame of reference all the time you are playing 15. Nice.....
The tunnel (for, yes it is) then leads you to the next stanza of the movement. VERY intimate, low hanging branches, dark with only a few gaps revealing ever more what awaits. (Hence the tortured seven veil analogy).
That tantalising glimpse of greatness, which is then taken away before eventually being given back is masterful. I'm not sure if it was ever meant that way - but I'd happily believe it was.
Enough anal-ysis for you? ;)
cheers,
FBD.
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PS Culottes NEVER look good on a man anyway!!! ;D
F.
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But kilts do, huh?
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Google Maps puts the walk at about 150 yards from the back of 15 green to 16 tee. Would you say this is pretty accurate?
If so thats got to be the longest, most anticipation filled, 150 yard walk one will ever take in thier first visit to CP. It is interesting as Martin suggests if it was meant to be that way to get the juices flowing in anticipation of the next shot.
Also interesting to hear TD's comments about it potentially being a par 4. Looking at Google maps I suppose they could have put a tee box 50 yards behind the current tee and make it a devilish short par 4. I don't know if the lay of the land would permit this, but Google earth puts it at about 30 feet higher in elevation than the current tee box.
In this scenario hitting to the green could be done by the long hitters yet still give the short boppers room to lay up out to the left. Thoughts??
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Gotta tell ya, man, the chicks really, REALLY dig 'em. ;)
I was beating them frauleins off like flies offa big scottish jobbie.
(Yes, the single WORST FBD tortured analogy of 2007 - look out for more drivel coming your way in 2008, folks... ;D)
F.
PS Get this thing back on topic, right this minute, young man...don't make me come up there!
Kalen, that's about right. Thing is you are so conflicted that you REALLY DON'T want the walk to end, but CAN'T WAIT to tee the ball up and go for the green!!!! (Unless your initials are DM, of course)
F. ;D
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I can think of two walks. One of the best is the walk through the oaks at La Purisima from 14th green to 15th tee. It gives you a second to reflect and think about, "How can I par two of the last four holes?". The final 4 holes are into the wind or have a crosswind.
Another walk is the walk at Rustic Canyon from 12th green to 13th tee. Again this one is there because of the routing. I don't like it but I can't think of how I would change it. I wish the 18th tee was closer to 17th green but you would have to tee off from the 10th green, across the wash. If they built a tee there, it would wash away every other year.
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Oops...forgot about the one at Crystal Downs. Also there are a couple walks at Forest Highlands to get up and down into the canyon holes (8 to 9, 9 to 10, 16 to 17, 18 to clubhouse). Its probably borderline at best to call FHGC--Canyon a walking course because of all four of those (which are more about the terrain than the actual distance).
Also Stonehenge in Tennessee has a similar situation where you finish the 15th and have to walk up a (HUGE) hill to get to the 16th tee back up the hill. You play down with the dropshot 14th par three, but I'm not sure there was any way to play back up.
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What about the walk at Bel-Air CC, I believe it is between 9 and 10. I've been told you have to take a tram down the hill? Anyone have pics of that?
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I love the walk between 4 and 5 at Barnbougle and think it not only works, but adds to the experience.
It is a great way to get from the more rural views on the left of 2,3,4 to the dune and ocean strip from 5-9. Sort of like a 'transition' walk. Because of that, it doesn't actually seem long at all.
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There are two instances on my 'dream course' where I have routed the green to tee walk in a pretty much back tracking direction, BUT what you get in return for these walks is not only a nice stroll (250 yds parallel through the trees after #13, 100 yds diagonally after #16), but a solid peek at the landing areas for your next tee shot(s) because once you get to either of these tees you'll find you're staring at a blind tee shot, only now you have a little ammo on your first go-round.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/St%20Alberts/069.jpg)
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Eric,
Do you know what kind of grass you've got in your photo? I figured you guys were all bermuda down there. Though, it doesn't look like it from what I can tell.
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In response to the original question - no:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Barnbougle/IMG_0027.jpg)
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My two favourites
Cape Breton HIGHLANDS, great long walk on the back nine between holes.
Denmark Golf Club half a mile walk at least from parking to clubhouse! through a deer park. before and after your round!
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Eric,
Do you know what kind of grass you've got in your photo? I figured you guys were all bermuda down there. Though, it doesn't look like it from what I can tell.
Our farm is all fescue and timothy.
As far as golf courses go where I live, we don't have any bermuda grass courses up on the cumberland plateau. They are all either bluegrass or bent. Well one did recently convert to zoysia.
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Eric,
Forgive my ignorance about the horse farm ;D
I was gonna guess fescue.....well, because it looks like fescue!!
I guess you're right, my buddy lives in SW Missouri and that's where bermuda starts to creep in.....and you would be north of that.
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It is not so much 15 to 16, but 14 to 15 at Cypress. I think, in general, the crossing of the threshold at Seventeen Mile Drive is an extraordinary passage at Cypress — the anticipation, the stage and the momentary wait are all such a great part of the round.
Great call Evan, and man as I read through this thread I was wondering what the heck took you all so long to mention 15 green to 16 tee at Cypress.
And I must disagree with my man Forrest. On, 14 green to 15 tee is a nice walk, and crossing the threshold of 17 Mile Drive is meaningful, but to me it pales compared to the walk of all walks, which is what 15 gree to 16 tee is to me.
See, if you're a red-blooded great golf hole-loving golfer, your thoughts about 16 started about two miliseconds after you got the invitation to play the course. 15 also is looked forward to, but 16 is the big deal. How you did on 16 is what you're gonna tell your buddies about. 16 is where you're gonna take pictures, if you are into such things. 16 is where you're gonna measure your success on the round - you could botch all other 17 holes, but if you get one on 16 green, you go home happy.
So the anticipation is freakin' palbable... and it grows and grows and grows as the round goes on... until you finally get to 15, which of course is a fabulous golf hole in its own right. So you concentrate on playing that, until you putt out... and then the tought is "holy shit, we're here"....
Only you're not.
You walk off 15 gree and you go through the tree canopy.. where is 16? You know it's there because you saw 16 green from 15 tee, off in the distance. But it's hidden by the trees..... only then what's that, a gap in the trees reveals the green again... but then it closes up and you keep walking... only to emerge on the tee, and jesus h. christ, there it is, it is real, what an incredible sight.
Now THAT is a walk.
;D
And then the guys you're playing with tell you to hit your 4 wood, which you do, and nut it, and you come up short still.
http://gallery.me.com/jedpeters#100472/MVI_1556&bgcolor=black
Damn you Tom, damn you.
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Jonathan,
Come to think of it, those skinny horses in Aiken last fall were probably scraping by on bermuda. ;)
There is bermuda on either side (Nashville / Knoxville) of where I live. I'm just at a higher elevation on the plateau. We're 5-10 degrees cooler than those towns and it makes a huge difference I promise.
Come down this spring and we'll have a great time playing golf and I'll show you the farm.
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When Cobb's Creek opened, it was contended that the two lengthy walks on the course were purposefully done to "spread out play", in an effort to speed things along on a public course. In fact, anyone who has played it would recognize that the walk from the then 17th green (today's 11th) to the 18th tee (about 50 yards left of today's tee) was 350+ cardiac-inducing yards down one steep embankment and up another and hardly fast-play inducing..
Along with the obvious fallaciousness of that supposed rationale, it seems to really not have been the case, or at least the primary concern, but instead a bit of PR to explain what was an obvious glitch.
The real problem was that Fairmount Park originally would not let the original designers remove any trees, so the course really had to be routed around them.
Joe Bausch has an article somewhere which if he ever finds it ;) talks about how they wanted to build a different eighteenth hole originally, but were unable to due to trees.
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Its so simple are you going for a long walk or playing golf. If playing golf - vote with your feet and of course your money by refusing to play the courses again. After all it's only your game that is taking the strain and if you will not speak out, who will - the choice is yours.
Melvyn
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What if it's a nice walk Melvyn?
Some of us don't hit it enough to get much exercise otherwise...
I could probably walk from the 11th green to the 13th tee at Pebble Beach and not realize I had only played 17...
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I've never been there...but folks have talked about a walk thru a tree canopy from 15 to 16 at CPC...anyone care to "yeah" or "nay" that one?
Kinda boring but oh well.
;)
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I've never been there...but folks have talked about a walk thru a tree canopy from 15 to 16 at CPC...anyone care to "yeah" or "nay" that one?
Kinda boring but oh well.
;)
I'm with Bill, pretty bland, take it or leave it!! ::) ;D
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Jim
Just remember you are there to play golf not go walking in the park. Thats fun stuff is still to come in a few more years when you go wandering off alone then forget what it is you were doing. But you call it what you want.
Melvyn
PS I use to suffer from stress and tension until I was introduced to Al Zheimers