Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Kevin Pallier on January 11, 2010, 08:48:55 AM
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Americans should feel very fortunate to have such a quality facility on their doorstep which for mine now has four World Top100 calibre courses.
- Old Macdonald
- Pacific Dunes
- Bandon Trails
- Bandon Dunes
Put simply, Old Macdonald (OM) is “the best” Doak course I have seen and could very well be the best course built since Sand Hills.
It sits right up there with the other “template” style courses I saw in the USA by CB Macdonald (NGLA) and Seth Raynor (Fishers Island). However unlike them - you don’t need to have influential connections to see it – simply a keenness to travel to Oregon is all it takes. OM sits equally among those mentioned above in that no hole feels forced on the land though one could argue that the site at Bandon is no where as good as those in the NY region.
Listed as a tribute to the father figure of golf course design in America - CBM - the routing takes you out to the ocean then comes back inland only to take you out again before finishing back where you started the journey. The site is not blessed with enough land close to the ocean like Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes to have a few holes parallel to the water instead Doak and Urbina (D & U) only touch it twice with elevated greensites before taking you back down onto the flatter parts of the course.
D&U are “conventionally unconventional” with regard to the routing which has three P3’s on the F9 and only one P5 whereas the B9 has but one P3. Interestingly no more than two consecutive holes run in the same direction and I noticed the fact that all the P3’s face different points of the compass - I wonder if that was intended ? ;D
The P3’s consist of an “Eden”, a “Short”, a “Biarritz” and a “Redan” all personal favourites of mine. I also like how D&U have put their own slant on some “template” style designs incl. their unique “Redan” and “Biarritz” but more about them later.
I will try and give a guide as to what I saw based on my two viewings of the course and taking into account notes that have been published on GCA before re: “Tom Doak’s: Hole Descriptions.”
Holes:
1st = (P4: 340yds) “Double Plateau” an interesting P4 start with a very wide fairway similar in style to the 11th at NGLA. Tom Doak is listed as saying “This is my favourite opening hole that we’ve ever built”. High praise indeed !!
View of the green
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/1b.jpg)
View from the green looking back at the fairway
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/1d.jpg)
2nd = (P3: 190yds) “Eden” P3 has a deep revetted bunker at the front right and like the 11th at TOC – over the back leaves one very difficult shot back within which to try and save par.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/2a.jpg)
3rd = (P4: 335yds) “Sahara” a short P4 over a ridge. The short line to the right requires only something like a 150yrd carry but also leaves a longer shot in. The riskier left side requires one to flirt with a very large tree but one may be able to get really close to the green if they take such a line and are successful. Similar in scale to the 5th at NSW re: the ridge – hit it far enough and you get a massive runoff on a left to right camber down towards the green and the view from the plateau across the layout at OM is quite breathtaking.
Drive with ridge
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/3.jpg)
View of greens and surrounds
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/3aaa.jpg)
View from behind the green
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/3b.jpg)
4th = (P4: 510yds) “Hogs Back” is listed as being inspired by the 17th at Lundin Links and is a long P4 in a natural valley of sorts. A definite half par hole for mine with a lovely little rise to a plateau greensite that is well protected by strong fallaways and a false front.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/4.jpg)
5th = (P3: 160yds) “Short” is obviously the shortest P3 on the course and whose precedent is the 6th at NGLA. This hole has a massive greensite that is shared with the 10th and lovely little internal zones within the green.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/5a.jpg)
6th = (P5: 590yds) “Long” is a great rolling P5 that I’m led to believe will play directly into the prevailing summer wind. The “Hell Bunkers” on the approach shot dominate the view and are certainly a hazard to be avoided at all costs and are particularly well placed. The greensite is superb and other than the shot over the cross bunkers there is no need to get aerial on this hole. The precedent is of course the mercurial 14th at TOC.
Approach re: Hells Bunkers
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/6a.jpg)
View of green and Pacific Dunes in background
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/6c.jpg)
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7th = (P4: 377yds)“Ocean” does not have a precedent of sorts but is a stout hole in it’s own right with a green perched on a ridge overlooking the Pacific. This will be a difficult P4 into a prevailing breeze.
Tough approach
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/7c.jpg)
Vista
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/7g.jpg)
8th = (P3: 205yds)“Biarritz” is the only severely downhill P3 Biarritz I’ve seen ? One is faced with a massive green off the tee which is nearly as big as a football field and whose swale will test even the best putters. Precedents are listed to include Yale’s and Piping Rock’s 9th (both of which I haven’t seen)
View from the tee
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/8a.jpg)
The swales
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/8b.jpg)
View back to the tee
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/8d.jpg)
9th = (P4: 415yds) “Cape” is a sharp P4 dogleg to the right with a sea of bunkers on the inside replacing the normal water hazard on the dogleg. One can take the longer left side however there is a narrow green that awaits. The precedent here is the 14th at NGLA.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/9b.jpg)
10th = (P4: 470yds) “Bottle” similar in style to the 8th at NGLA whereby two sets of bunkers narrow the P4 driving zone into a left or right segment. One then plays an approach shot uphill to a green perched above the fairway that is protected by a steep gully that will catch anything short. The green is massive and connects with the 5th.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/10a.jpg)
11th = (P4: 460yds) “Road” I’ve now seen two copies of TOC’s “Road Hole” in NGLA and OM. Both have interesting styles though nothing beats the original for mine. The “road” and the blind angled drive “over the sheds” in this instance are replaced with an elevated drive across a sea of sand and gorse to a wide fairway. The front bunker protecting the P4 green is not as deep nor as claustrophobic feeling as that at St. Andrews.
Drive
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/11a.jpg)
Greenside Bunker
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/11d.jpg)
12th = (P3: 210yds) “Redan” Having seen a few in my time this P3 has its own very unique characteristics. The bunkers on the left aren’t so far up the green and the green is quite wide than others I am used too. A very good version indeed.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/12b.jpg)
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13th = (P4: 305yds) “Leven” parallel with the 12th this P4’s green is almost driveable for the bigger hitters going around and the green has a strong tier in it.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/13a.jpg)
14th = (P4: 360yds) “Maiden” also doesn’t have a precedent but is a great hole in its own right. A short uphill P4 with a strong right to left camber in the fairway. The green perched on the same ridge you cross on the 3rd and has a strong false front.
Approach
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/14b.jpg)
Green
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/14d.jpg)
15th = (P5: 570yds) “Westward Ho!” this long P5 plays uphill back towards the ocean on a rolling fairway. The precedent is the 18th at NGLA and the vista across Bandon is superb.
Drive
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/15a.jpg)
Green Vista
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/15f.jpg)
16th = (P4: 460yds) “Alps” similar in style to the 3rd at NGLA in that it allows the golfer a view of the green from the right hand side. The front greenside bunker notably unlike Prestwick and NGLA’s P4’s doesn’t extend all the way across the green allowing one who takes the bold approach over the large dune a chance of bouncing a ball into the green.
Approach from the right
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/16a.jpg)
Approach over the large dune
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/16b.jpg)
17th = (P5: 580yds) “Littlestone” may very well be the best P5 I have ever seen emanate from the Doak group. In fact all the P5’s are particularly strong and this hole was reportedly similar in style to the revered P5 4th hole at the defunct Lido golf hole that was built on Long Island. The OM version allows basically two choices off the tee: one can take the riskier shorter and direct route on the right or the longer left hand approach. On the former one has to contend with a series of large bunkers and small wetlands off the drive and but is presented with a more open view of the green.
The P5 (note the second green to the right of picture)
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/17View.jpg)
Approach
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/17b.jpg)
Green looking back down the fairway
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/17g.jpg)
18th = (P4: 490yds) “Punchbowl” whilst I thought this greensite looked a little manufactured and slightly unnatural – the angles off the drive are important as one can feed a ball in from the left to right slope on the green. The green has a lot of movement in it and will require a few good putts to have a good score.
Drive
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/18a.jpg)
Approach
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/18c.jpg)
D&U have done a sterling job and created a “timeless classic” that certainly will be well received and possibly become the most popular on the layout as it is IMO the most “playable” of all the designs. I came away very impressed and it’s a pity that the course is so far away as it’s one that I would dearly like to visit again sooner rather than later.
I can see this course getting a lot of traffic after it opens “officially” in June this year and hopefully some more golf enthusiasts will be converted to GCA disciples. Maybe Ran & Ben will have to allow an increase in members on GCA as a result ?
Do yourself a favour in 2010 - get a tee time and see what all the “fuss is all about”.
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Kevin,
Thanks for taking the time to share those pics with us.
OM looks to be great fun and it seems on first impression that some of the less "standard" template holes like "Littlestone" and "Ocean" may be the best ones out there!
My only disappointment is that I hoped to see something modelled after the "Valley" hole at NGLA with it's unique greensite/contours, but perhaps it's best for that stellar hole to remain one-of-a-kind.
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Wonderful post in a series of good post on OM (still bad name). I am thrilled to know I will play this course a number of times in May and June.
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OM looks to be great fun and it seems on first impression that some of the less "standard" template holes like "Littlestone" and "Ocean" may be the best ones out there!
Mike
Interesting observation - that may very well be the case.
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Thanks Kevin. This gives me a chance to drool over the course before my trip....only 10 months until I tee off !! More photos please if you've got em. :)
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Kevin:
Great photographs. Thanks!
Leaving aside the "templete" theme of the course, what aspects of the course stand out? Is it the internal countours on the large greens (which BTW look amazing!) or the need to position yourself correctly for the approach shots.
Dónal.
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Kevin,
Thanks for posting. Looks great and I'm willing to bet the pictures don't do it justice.
I wish you had seen that other Doak course that was under a foot of snow so we could hear your thoughts comparing the two.
It's killing me to not currently have this course on the agenda for 2010.
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I dont know why, but OM doesn't look nearly as appealing to me as the other courses at BD. Great tour though and keep them coming!
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WOW
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Kevin,
Thanks for the pics of the non-preview holes - the 10 I got to play at OM were an absolutely joy and I had more fun on this course than any of the others which is extremely high praise indeed - Doak, Urbina and team have totally killed it and created a wonderful and enjoyable journey that shines despite the lack of "ocean" holes.
Your course reviews around the US has been amazing - did you win the lottery or something? :)
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Kevin,
Thanks! Now my appetite is really whetted to get back out there! If OM is indeed the best of the bunch then it's truly something special...
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If you scroll right, this bunker on the right* of 15 is very interesting. Can anybody comment whether it'll keep the grass in its bottom. It creates an interesting shot dilemma.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/15f.jpg)
* Just in case you didn't know. If you use a mouse with a scroll wheel, you can click on the wheel over the image to move the picture right or left.
Btw, this greensite gives a terrific teaser view of Sheep Ranch.
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I saw that grass down there too, Slaggy, and pondered if it's not just a temporary thing to keep sand from blowing out during grow in.
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I'm thinking so too, Miguel, but thought the shot predicament and its uniqueness might be a positive. At least, something for them to consider leaving as is. Heck, Old Mac has a plethora of novel concepts. Why not another one? It looks flymowable.
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Kevin:
Great photographs. Thanks!
Leaving aside the "templete" theme of the course, what aspects of the course stand out? Is it the internal countours on the large greens (which BTW look amazing!) or the need to position yourself correctly for the approach shots.
Dónal.
Donal, I'll tell you from my experience on the preview round that the overwhelming size and character of the greens are like stepping off of the lunar lander - you're in another world. I also appreciate the playability factor. It's very difficult to lose a ball out there and the F/F conditioning of the 100% fescue turf makes it feel like you've always got a shot at recovery.
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Mr Slag Bandoon,
The picture you see is an (older) version of the back of the green on # 15 it was taken just before I got back to Bandon to work on this feature in November. The bunker had started to erode and with the help of Ken's crew we reshaped the bunker, it appears today much different then that photo shows.
It will now be a very quirky shot if you overshoot the green and land in this depression. You will have the option to Putt or chip out of the swale and it blends in nicely with it's surrounds.
I added a feature that allows for a very unconventional shot to a pin set closely to the back of the green. Don't know if it will work but the intent is there. I wonder how long it will take the caddies to figure if it's worth taking the chance on the shot?
We worked on a few other holes including the Cape.
Ken's crew has the Fescue looking really good. The greens have a nice thump sound when the ball strikes the surface. We are lucky to have the expertise of both Ken and C.J. and the entire crew they are doing the little things that the golf course needs over the winter months. Priceless
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Hard to tell just from the pics, but this green looks absolutly wild. Holy hearstopper batman!! ;)
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/8d.jpg)
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Kalen, that's not a green, it's a roller coaster. Great pics, thanks for sharing. Some day!!
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A trip to Bandon just jumped right up my list of priorities!
Wonderful pictures and commentary, thanks for sharing.
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Great pictures!
Counting down the days until my return! An amazing place to say the very least.
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Kevin,
Great photo tour.
Bandon must be the best golf destination in the world and OM just enhances its standing.
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Hard to tell just from the pics, but this green looks absolutly wild. Holy hearstopper batman!! ;)
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/8d.jpg)
The Double Biarritz? :)
That is SO totally gnarle dude!
OM is beyond epic (insert happy dance here)
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Is that sprinkler head in the close-up of the eighth green?
If so, is it on the green or the fairway?
We have two sprinkler heads embedded in the Riverside Municipal greens. I have never seen one hit on the fly, but I have to admit that I am curious.
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Old Mac is three winters in the making now and will definately stir the discussion of which is the best course at Bandon Dunes. I have had the privelege to work on phase II of constrcution and live in Bandon for a 10 month span. In my estimation I have played over 70 rounds during that period, with a bias toward Pac, and Trails. As a golfer, working at Bandon Dunes has got to be the best job in the business!
As for the best Renaissance par 5, what about 15 at Pac, this is one of the best strategy par 5's I have seen at any golf course. 17 will will prove itself in less than 1 season as I'm sure many will rave, however OM is quite special for its 4 1/2 par holes : 4,10,11,16!!!
I have felt great freedom while walking those links without a yardage, without a par, and without a care in the world. It wont matter anyway if the wind is blowing.... ;D
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Thanks Kevin! I hope to get out there this spring for a visit just to see it.
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Kevin,
thanks for the excellent photos and tour of OM. We had the chance to play 10 of the holes prior to opening last year, really neat to see how they all link together now. The "ocean" hole is really fun to play, the environment change from the quiet lower fairway to the perched green with wind and ocean noise, the intensity of the hole is elevated with the same slope as the fairway up to that green.
Cheers,
Brad.
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Kevin,
Thanks for posting. Looks great and I'm willing to bet the pictures don't do it justice.
I wish you had seen that other Doak course that was under a foot of snow so we could hear your thoughts comparing the two.
It's killing me to not currently have this course on the agenda for 2010.
Jim
It wasn't the best day for photos unfortunately so I apologise that my skills dont do it justice.
It was the only regret of my trip not seeing Ballyneal in all it's golfing glory.....one-day maybe ;)
I'm sure you'll enjoy OM when you get to see it.
Leaving aside the "templete" theme of the course, what aspects of the course stand out? Is it the internal countours on the large greens (which BTW look amazing!) or the need to position yourself correctly for the approach shots.
Donal
Four aspects stood out for me:
1. the mostly wide entrances to the greens
2. size of the greens themselves and the internal contours
3. the many fallaways and in particular elevation rises to the greens eg: false fronts
4. the relatively wide fairways which will make an interesting combination with the pin placements on the greens
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Kevin,
Thanks for the pictures.
I've always thought that Bandon was an almost perfect destination for American golfers.
No need to change currency, get a passport, worry about flights home, AND, you have four DIVERSE, QUALITY golf courses at your disposal with good accomodations to boot.
Why wouldn't a golfer want to spend a few days at Bandon ?
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Kevin (or any other person who can help):
I'm trying to get a better sense of what's happening with the 17th -- any additional commentary would be appreciated. Is that first image taken from the tee? What are the approximate distances to the various fairway areas in the photo? This hole looks extremely interesting, and I was trying to figure out where one might try to place his shots while navigating the hole. I have a general idea of what Macdonald's Channel hole looked like at Lido, and I've been looking at your pictures with interest and trying to lay the two holes on top of one another to get a sense of strategy.
Anyway -- whatever commentary anybody would like to supply would be of interest to me. Thanks.
R
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Ross
Great point and I should have elaborated re: the derivation of first pic. of the 17th hole. It is not of the drive - it is a picture taken from the ridge that is in play on the 3rd / greensite of the 14th looking down on the fairways of 17th.
The 17th tee area is off the the left of the 16th and can be seen in the last photo re: the 17th looking back up the fairway on the right hand side of it.
Let me know if this makes sense - otherwise I will try and add the tee shot photo.
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Drive with ridge
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/OM/3.jpg)
Love this tree! However, it doesn't look very lively. Hopefully it will last for a while? Most of the trees around there are evergreens I believe and I don't recall seeing too many without any greenery on them even in the dead of winter.
Kevin, when was your visit? Thanks for sharing these pics! My upcoming visit is too Bandon is too early so I will have to live through these and a walk around the course if I have the time.
Thanks,
Reef
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Kevin -- I had a feeling we were looking at the hole from up above and to the right, so your comments make sense. No need to upload a tee shot photo (unless you really feel like it -- I'm sure none of us would object in that case!). It really does sound like a fascinating hole. I like your shot from the fairway looking at the green. Thanks.
R
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17 Old Macdonald
This is from the basic routing drawing we worked with - obviously there were modifications in the field but this should give you a rough idea. We agonized a lot hoping to make this work properly - so everyone doesn't take the same route all the time
the route to the right is the risk-route, the green reachable in 2 but the carry off the tee is very long ....... the fairway to the left will leave most golfers with a 3-shot hole, mainly because of the cavernous, sleepered bunker fronting the green - your third shot will be blind to the green
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g85/ggb313/zzmisc-17holeforshare.jpg)
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George:
Thanks so much for the routing plan. This is why I am such a fan of this web site. It's really wonderful to ask a question and then have an architectural drawing uploaded as an answer to the question from one of the people who helped design the hole. I so appreciate that, George. And it looks like you've created a rather amazing golf course in Oregon -- I look forward to playing it in September.
Speaking specifically to 17, from the pictures it does look like you were able to do what you intended as far as giving players a real option. Seems like the use of the basic Lido strategy but without the actual channel (which would seem more aggressively penal) makes trying the more dangerous route more tempting. I'm not a particularly long hitter by today's standards, but playing downwind I could imagine the right hand route looking rather inviting -- especially since I'll have multiple rounds on the course. For example, even though a 200 or 220 yard carry isn't something I take lightly in calm conditions, when I play Bandon Dunes no. 16 with the summer wind, I'll sometimes try the very aggressive play more toward the green. It's fun to try, and I've pulled the shot off (sometimes).
Anyway -- I really like the look of that hole from what I see in the pictures Kevin posted. Thanks again.
R
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George:
I played the 17th hole a couple of times last fall with a good tailwind, and was surprised how easy it was to get over to the right fairway area ... I almost went through the fairway on one occasion, and had a good chance to knock it on the green both times. [One ended happily, the other I topped my second shot with a borrowed hybrid club.] I was not playing all the way back [seldom do] but I thought the angle from that tee made it hard to stay in the right fairway, so Jim has built a new back tee further to the left.
I suspect the hole is quite a bit easier than the original Channel hole at Lido, but you still have to hit a solid and big tee shot to go right, and those who do will really enjoy it a lot.
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Tom,
How long is it? I have it in the Fantasy Course draft and would love a complete scorecard for my course. ;D
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One of the neatest inclusions in the Old Macdonald routing by Tom and Jim(bo) is that there are so many holes played in different directions, so you have all these downwind, into the wind and so many variations of crosswinds - all this changing throughout the year.
What you have on one visit (or one day) will probably be different next time around.
This was one of the reasons for that huge green on the Short hole, #5. I’m waiting to see players playing that hole with a severe right pin placement with the “normal” right to left 3-club wind - good luck.
This course and what led up to the building of it, the strong winds, rain, the tight lies short over and to the sides of the greens (where you should probably leave you wedge game in the bag) has really changed my outlook on golf.
Add to that the preliminary trip suggested by Mike to revisit what Macdonald took as his inspiration holes was very enlightening to me - unfortunately, (unlike many of you) I had not been to Scotland before and that trip with Tom was a highlight.
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8) That lone tree on the ridge looks like the old Hangman's Tree at the 16th green at Oak Tree.. last i saw it, they had it held up by cement!
WWOMD with it?
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Is that sprinkler head in the close-up of the eighth green?
If so, is it on the green or the fairway?
We have two sprinkler heads embedded in the Riverside Municipal greens. I have never seen one hit on the fly, but I have to admit that I am curious.
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Tom:
Thanks for the additional playing info. I was curious as to your reaction when you discovered that the carry to the right side was easier than you expected. I like the description you gave: "I suspect the hole is quite a bit easier than the original Channel hole at Lido, but you still have to hit a solid and big tee shot to go right, and those who do will really enjoy it a lot." That sounds like a hole I'd really like to play.
I'm sure the Channel hole at Lido was amazing, and I wish I could have had a crack at it. But from the drawings and photos I've seen, I suspect that (other than for the sheer thrill of it) I would have attempted the carry maybe 1 out of 10 times. Too tough a shot for me.
Do you have an overall philosophy about this kind of risk/reward hole as to how difficult the tougher carry should be? How often would an average player be expected to pull that shot off in an ideal world (from the right tees, obviously)? If your aim as an architect leans toward creating a fun hole, presumably it would be doable more often than if you're primarily trying to go for a stern test. How do you balance those variables? Or how did you and Jim (and your other colleagues) think about it in this case?
Cheers,
R
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One of the neatest inclusions in the Old Macdonald routing by Tom and Jim(bo) is that there are so many holes played in different directions, unlike most of the other hoes at Bandon, so you have all these downwind, into the wind and so many variations of crosswinds - all this changing throughout the year.
What you have on one visit (or one day) will probably be different next time around.
George
Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails all have holes that will be downwind, crosswind and into the wind regardless of wind direction. I don't thinks it fair to say that Old Macdonald is the first course at Bandon to play in different directions to utilize the wind, it would be insulting to the other courses and those who worked on them.
As for playing holes in different wind conditions, well there is a weird little deal that happens here in Bandon. Our wind is almost always from a predominate direction. Summertime winds come from the North, northeast. Wintertime winds come from the south, southwest. If the wind isn't blowing from the north in the Summer, it isn't windy. Same goes for the winter, it it isn't blowing from the south, it isn't windy. So guests that come in the winter are always surprised when I tell them that #16 at Bandon is a big downwind shot in the summer. Or the guys that come in the summer can't imagine playing #4 at Pacific into the wind. And really return guests come about the same time of year, summer guys are summer guys, winter guys are winter guys.
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Joe, what about Fall and Spring? Or don't you have those seasons in Oregon? ;D
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Joe, what about Fall and Spring? Or don't you have those seasons in Oregon? ;D
Tony
Your right. Summertime and Wintertime aren't the right terms. I guess its more like 8 months from the north, 4 months from the south. And by no means am I saying we don't get the occasionally west wind or the very rare east wind. but 90% of windy days you now what directions the wind is coming from based on what time of year it is.
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Question for those that have played both holes... How similar is the 3rd at OM to the 9th at Pacific Dunes (when playing the lower green.)
The first two pictures look remarkably similar - big ridge that makes the fairway blind and makes the carry tougher the farther left you go. Potentially ability to drive the green in the right conditions. Looks like a generous fairway that tumbles downhill and also has a little of a collecting aspect to it. The 9th at Pacific is popped in my head as soon as I saw these photos and I can't shake it.
I realize that pictures don't tell the entire story, which is why I am asking. You can also bet I'll be following up with my own opinion in June.
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Tim:
The two holes are very different. At Pacific Dunes, you either hit a fade to try to stay up on the plateau (if you are playing the right green) or a big draw to try and maximize distance (if you are playing the left).
On the 3rd at Old Macdonald, the tilt of the ground on the far side of the ridge is the other way around -- if you stay left your ball will stay up on top, with a severely downhill approach, and if you go right you get down to the bottom and may have a semi-blind approach. The tee shot is also MUCH more uphill than the 9th at Pacific, and there is a not-so-small tree in the way.
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Tim:
The two holes are very different. At Pacific Dunes, you either hit a fade to try to stay up on the plateau (if you are playing the right green) or a big draw to try and maximize distance (if you are playing the left).
On the 3rd at Old Macdonald, the tilt of the ground on the far side of the ridge is the other way around -- if you stay left your ball will stay up on top, with a severely downhill approach, and if you go right you get down to the bottom and may have a semi-blind approach. The tee shot is also MUCH more uphill than the 9th at Pacific, and there is a not-so-small tree in the way.
Thanks for the comparison.
Will that tree have leaves in the summer, or is it an "old, dead tree?" Looks kind of old and dead, but just wondering.
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I've always thought that Bandon was an almost perfect destination for American golfers.
No need to change currency, get a passport, worry about flights home, AND, you have four DIVERSE, QUALITY golf courses at your disposal with good accomodations to boot.
Why wouldn't a golfer want to spend a few days at Bandon ?
Patrick
Two factors I would hazard a guess for mine are the logistics and cost. Each to their own of course but 4 games of golf plus at least 3 nights accomodation & food - one wouldn't have much change from say $2,000.
Another that I would suggest causes some issues is that it isn't really a "family orientated" golf resort. I tend to take my wife and young kids away with me on my holidays and golfing sojourns. Bandon seemed limited in that regard but caters rather well instead to serious golfers.
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I've always thought that Bandon was an almost perfect destination for American golfers.
No need to change currency, get a passport, worry about flights home, AND, you have four DIVERSE, QUALITY golf courses at your disposal with good accomodations to boot.
Why wouldn't a golfer want to spend a few days at Bandon ?
Patrick
Two factors I would hazard a guess for mine are the logistics and cost. Each to their own of course but 4 games of golf plus at least 3 nights accomodation & food - one wouldn't have much change from say $2,000.
Another that I would suggest causes some issues is that it isn't really a "family orientated" golf resort. I tend to take my wife and young kids away with me on my holidays and golfing sojourns. Bandon seemed limited in that regard but caters rather well instead to serious golfers.
Perhaps the proposed par 3 and 9 hole courses are the beginning of an appeal for family trips and the less-serious golfer?
I think the serious golfers will enjoy them as well. ;)
The fact is that with the quality of the courses there, they could charge even more and it would be tough to argue against it.
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Pacific Dunes (PD) was the best Doak course I had seen - that is - until I saw OM.
After quite an uninspiring starting hole which is somewhat a little out of character with the rest of the layout the course certainly “opens up” thereafter and has a superb routing. It moves out to the ocean very quickly before coming back inland to then touch it again before the final trek home.
Doak is certainly not afraid to do things a little bit differently – back to back P3’s after the turn and three P3’s and three P5’s spread amongst three P4’s is a bold way to build a back nine. That coupled with a ninth hole that has distinctly different upper and lower greens you get a feeling that he is more interested in trying to find the best holes rather than applying a specific formula to his routing to which he should be commended.
PD very much encourages one to leave the SW “flop shot” skills at home and really focus on testing one’s ground game moreso. Don’t get me wrong the SW is certainly not a redundant club it’s just that with the tight lies and angles to the greens a deft touch with say a 7I and putter are just as good as one who likes to take an aerial approach around the greens.
It’s a credit to his skills as a designer that he can build seven P4’s on the F9 with such wonderful variety that you almost miss that very fact. I think his P3’s and P5’s as collections are stronger at OM but the debate can rage on as to one’s favourite layout at the facility – they are both mighty fine courses.
Holes I noted:
1st = a reasonably short P4 of around 370yds with a wicked greensite. There is more width off the tee than one first may feel – I took a long iron and it wasn’t a bad choice with the firm’n’fast conditions providing plenty of “run”. I only question this hole in relation to the rest of the layout where the width off the tee is obvious ?
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/PD/1.jpg)
2nd = a common theme at PD is the use of centreline bunkering to ask questions of the golfer. Which line do I want to take ? And one can work backwards from the green to the tee on this 370yd P4 with a punchbowl green. The great thing about centreline bunkering is that it makes people make choices off the tee rather than steering them around a layout with fairway lined bunkering.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/PD/2.jpg)
4th = this “clifftop” hole is as good as any of its more famous relatives at Pebble Beach and Ballybunion in the strength of its simple strategy. The bunkers off the tee left and relatively close the green almost “force” one to flirt with the cliffs if they want the more direct line to the green. It’s a beautiful hole and as a 463yd P4 isn’t exactly short for size either.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/PD/4.jpg)
6th = this short P4 at 316yds is a great teaser. One is presented with a wide fairway with a lone bunker in the dune right protecting the most direct line into the green. The width off the drive is more than compensated by the narrowness of the green with a bunker protecting the “fat” left side in and a steep fallaway to the right. A simple yet great strategic hole.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/PD/6.jpg)
10th = a P3 of enormous elasticity from 135-206yds – I was particularly pleased with my tee shot to birdie territory only to be out-done by a hole in one !! The great thing about the hole is that it proves that you don’t need to bunker a greensite to make it a challenge. The contours in the green and effects of the wind on the exposed relatively narrow greensite provide enough of a challenge.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/PD/10.jpg)
11th = not as dramatic as the B2B P3’s at Cypress Point but a solid combination all the same. The bunkers and a steep back to front slope make this short 150yd hole no pushover.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/PD/11.jpg)
13th = I’m sure Tom was well pleased to discover such a “dramatic” looking hole on this 444yds beauty. It shares the same land as the 6th and has probably the widest fairway on the course that then progressively narrows to the green. Very similar in style to the 4th yet it plays in the opposite direction. The hole is further enhanced by a lovely false front greensite and a large sand blow-out to the right adds to the wonderful look and feel that this hole affords.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/PD/13.jpg)
15th = I thought that this was the best P5 on the layout – primarily in the fact that all the other P5’s placed a similar emphasis on missing the greenside bunkers. This 540yd hole doesn’t need them – with the fantastic greensite with its knob and fallaways placing enough emphasis on the strength and quality of the approach.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/PD/15.jpg)
This is a very impressive layout with some very thoughtful yet challenging holes. Its strength lies in the many half-par holes and the way the routing considers the wind impacts that one will get throughout the round. Very clever use of the land re: the transitioning of the holes and greensites that sit perfectly on the natural terrain.
Who needs to go the great “links” of GB&I when you’ve got OM and PD from the stable of Tom Doak right next to one another ?
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Love the picture of 15!
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Kevin - PD is a fun course isn't it!
I am a huge fan of the 3rd which was not pictured above - a great hole that introduces the golfer to the ocean - I love the center line bunkers off the tee and the NAXTY bunker front right of the green.
Depending on the wind, some bunkers are in play more than others which makes the tee shot a blast. While the fairway is huge, the hazards make the drive a real thrill every time.
I love the look of the hole at twilight - this isn't a great photo but might get the thought across - golf nirvana.
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Rob
I had a blast at PD
The 3rd is a very good hole - a little too similar with the 12th perhaps ?
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Rob,
Thanx for the pic! I agree heartily on number 3, one of my favorites....
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Interesting commentary guys. The last few posts really speak to the quality of holes there because I thought #3 and #18 were the best two par 5s there....but an arguement could be made that 12 and 15 are better.
Both the fairway and greenside bunkering on #18 though is some of the most wild and unique I've ever seen.
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I really enjoy #12 although it seems to get the least amount of props from most people of the par 5s? ie) it is just a connector hole from the back to back par 3s at 10 and 11 and the all-world 13th.
I think #3 is more interesting off the tee because of the central fairway bunkers but, depending on the wind, #12 can present its own challenges. The green site at #12 is kind of cool, I like how it is tucked in a little cubby hole of sorts. You can be battling the wind from tee to green and then get a little rest while you are putting - it's like a safe harbor. The view from the tee is also really awesome - maybe from a "golf" perspective it is not the strongest par five on the course, but other elements make it thoroughly enjoyable.
Pretty sure the 3rd is my favorite par five on the course - the tee shot is a thrill and the green site is challenging - especially into the wind or versus a cross wind. Seeing someone in the right bunker is a riot (seeing yourself in there, not so good).
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The 12th at Pacific Dunes was built on the flattest, least-interesting portion of the property. But, it's still a pretty good hole. I appreciate the restraint exercised by the design team. I believe many firms would have reshaped much of the hole to add some "pizazz," but Renaissance kept things simple, with 3 small features creating captivating strategy.
1- Shared fairway bunker with the 4th hole on the left (I feature that really adds interest if the hole ever plays with a bit of a cross wind.
2- Central fairway bunker requiring careful placement of one lay up (again, especially in certain winds).
3- Slope feeding onto the green (pictured below, looking back to tee) from short left such that anything with a low trajectory will kick all of the way through the green. Anyone approaching the green in two must either be monsterously long (see ReMax Long Drive Championship) with calm winds or approach the right side of the green from the right side of the fairway (the longer route).
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3020/3082615597_c927c8746d_b.jpg)
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Kyle
Great picture - I have one from virtually exactly the same spot. :D
Point taken re: the flat land. I do however - like the entrance to the greensite and how it sets up for a draw into it.
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Does anyone know if golf is allowed on OM before the official opening? Is the 10 hole preview still allowed? Thanks.
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KP:
Would you recommend taking a caddy for the first rounds on these courses? Or would reading the posts and seeing the pictures here be enough to help first time round?
Also, what tees did you play off? did you play off blacks on all the courses you played?
Brett
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Brett
Others may disagree with me but I don't see the necessity for caddies at any of the Bandon courses.
Having played without them throughout Australia and GB&I ie: pretty much all my golfing life - I simply dont see the need. Each to their own I suppose ?
I never play off the back plates on any golf course unless "forced to". The game is hard enough as it is and I am no longer a reasonable single digit player to do them justice. ;D
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at this late hour, this is addictive.
KP you have clearly a unique viewpoint to this, in doing such a great golf tour and playing so many different courses in succession most days, can you comment a little on your decision making process on the tee please?
Club choice, type of shot required, etc, it seems to me that if one makes a poor choice on a special hole, the reflection of that shot will not be good one and thus influence your analysis of the hole and course.
I used a few caddies on my trip in Ireland/Scotland - some places, esp RCD, our caddy was very useful, and I also had much less control over the golf ball and sing back then :-[
And finally, are you very good at remembering each hole whereever you go, or do you have a process where you jot down notes to go with your pics? did you sit down at the end of each course and make some notes, or do you not care for this either?
I want to retain as much of my trip as possible. :)
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Brett:
Did you enjoy your rounds in Ireland and Scotland with caddies? That's a big part of why I'd recommend using one in Bandon. I tend to use caddies for my afternoon rounds when I'm there to minimize the exertion, in part. And of course, a caddie can definitely tell you things that wouldn't be obvious, especially the first time round. But the big reason for me is that when I'm in Bandon, I'm having myself a little pleasure golf trip, and walking a course with a caddie is usually just an enjoyable time. You can walk and wander and look around, and you don't have to schlep your bag. Nice to have somebody else carry it. I'm always carrying it myself, so the caddy is a bit of luxury.
Have a good time.
R
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KP you have clearly a unique viewpoint to this, in doing such a great golf tour and playing so many different courses in succession most days, can you comment a little on your decision making process on the tee please?
Club choice, type of shot required, etc, it seems to me that if one makes a poor choice on a special hole, the reflection of that shot will not be good one and thus influence your analysis of the hole and course.
Brett
I'm of the adage to try and get it in play and take it from there. Obviously a course like Olympic tested me out moreso than any course at Bandon with whom you will be surprised in general has more width off the tee than you realise.
I disagree with your second premise to a degree - the hole and all it's nuances are there in front of you. Of course I dont always pull off what strategy I intend but that doesn't preclude me from appreciating the architecture that's in play. Case in point - the Cape hole at OM. I absolutely butchered the hole but absolutely loved what was in play particularly looking back from the green.
I used a few caddies on my trip in Ireland/Scotland - some places, esp RCD, our caddy was very useful, and I also had much less control over the golf ball and sing back then :-[
As I said before - each to their own. I was required to take one around OM and enjoyed the experience with Peter my caddy - probably becasue we went out there alone.
And finally, are you very good at remembering each hole whereever you go, or do you have a process where you jot down notes to go with your pics? did you sit down at the end of each course and make some notes, or do you not care for this either?
I always grab two scorecards - one to make notes and the other for prosperity. I also had plenty of time on the trip to reflect on the great courses I was seeing after the round and between travels particularly as I was travelling alone. A few tips:
- take plenty of photos in hole sequence - makes it easier to remember the hole afterwards
- always carry a spare battery - nothing like seeing a great pic. opportunity and not being able to take a photo of same.
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Brett:
Did you enjoy your rounds in Ireland and Scotland with caddies?
Have a good time.
R
Ross:
- I used a caddy at RCD - was ok, of great assistance on the blind holes - esp at the other end, in knowing where to look when you missed the line.
- young guy at Portmarnock - wasn't very interested in us.
- We had a great guy at Waterville – he carried the double bagger of my mate & I, and have great memories of playing golf, walking the links with a great friend.
And finally at Kingsbarns, in what was an expensive response to continually missing the ballot every day – we jumped in a cab with a “what the hell” attitude, forget the expense, and had a tremendous day .
A common theme, from other friends and myself is some caddies reading of putts can sometimes be better off not advised. Even a respectful request to, it is ok, do you mind if I read my own putts, sometimes still doesn’t stop the advice.
Overall, and ancient and traditional aspect of the game, which I wish I had more opportunity to enjoy, sometimes, but not all the time.
Very excited about golfing in the USA.
Brett
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Brett
I also recommend you check out some great photo threads that our own Kyle Hendeson did a while back on Bandon Trails / Dunes -
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37759.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37741.0/
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Thanks KP - I will check out Kyle's threads.
Sorry, I didn't mean to kind of highjack the tread with caddy chat.
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Kevin,
Thanks for the wonderful gift of this photo/commentary thread. I am headed to Bandon in early May with 60 Chicagoans for our opening round on Old MacDonald. I am going to forward this thread to the Evans Scholars Foundation, which is the charity that put the trip together and they'll send it to all participants. We'll be there May 4-6 if any gca types are around, track us down. We won't be hard to find!
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If I am taking pictures throughout the round I will always try and hole sign pictures. Since there weren't any at Old Macdonald I simply made a "mistake" picture of the ground to differentiate the holes. It is a lot easier than dotting the scorecard since I might forget to dot a picture and that throws everything off count.
As far as caddies go, at Bandon I'll employ them on PD and OM, not BD or BT.
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Terry
My pleasure - I hope you and others are able to enjoy OM as much as I did. I'm sure fellow GCAers will post numerous threads on OM and I look forward to hearing what you think after your trip in May.
Whilst it takes a lot of time to post one's thoughts & pics. I think it's only right to repay somewhat the great generosity I experienced throughout the USA.
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Bump--to tie in to Terry Lavin's comments.