Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mac Plumart on November 01, 2009, 09:54:17 PM
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I am looking for some guidance regarding golf courses to play and study which can enhance my understanding and education regarding golf course architecture. But more than just a name or two regarding “must play” courses, I am also looking for the reasoning and logic behind why they must be played and what can be learned by playing and studying them.
To serve as a foundation, I will name all of the Top 100 courses I have played to date and the ones I am confirmed to play next year.
Thus far, I have played Kiawah Ocean, Pete Dye Golf Club of WV, East Lake, and Inverness.
This month I am making a golfing trip to play World Woods (Pine Barrens), Black Diamond Ranch (Quarry), and TPC Sawgrass.
In December, I am hitting Sea Island to play Plantation and Seaside.
Then in 2010, I am trekking to Vegas for my annual March Madness betting/golfing extravaganza. I will be playing Shadow Creek.
Then in May, I will be playing Pinehurst #2. This will be followed by Yale and The Honors Course later in the spring/early summer.
In 2011, I am lining up my first Scotland trek. The Old Course will be my focus, but any input regarding what to hit in addition to TOC is very welcome.
What other courses do I need to check out and why? My hopes are that this can assist me round out my education, but also I hope that it highlights some ideas others can use to plan and expand upon their golf course architectural education.
And finally, I hope we all can participate in some constructive give and take regarding some important/historic/revolutionary golf courses.
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Garden City - simple contours, complex golf course
North Berwick West - golf is fun
Shinnecock Hills - scale
Oakmont - slope
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Learning from mistakes is a lot easier, and more credible. Go play a few dog tracks and examine how they make you feel and why they made you feel what you felt. Conditioning aside.
I also encourage you to seek out hidden gems, not only the high profile courses, because, while every hole may not be 'top of the world' holes, identifying what is good versus what is great versus what doesn't work will educate you faster than studying the top of the heap. Plus, you can avoid any perception that you are just seeking access.
One last thing, divorcing your play from the gca analysis is primary, if you want your lessons to be comprehensive. Avoiding the pitfall of subjective redundancy.
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Philippe and Adam...excellent, thanks.
Adam...love the points.
I chose to only list the Top 100 courses I've played rather than all the courses I've played because there is only 4 of them and I can fit that number in the post much easier. I think I've played about 35 total courses so far. I don't think I've played any course I would call a "dog track", but I've certainly played some ones I don't like at all. And I have taken notes as to why I don't like them.
Hidden gems...BABY!!! That is my favorite topic. I could go on forever about this topic. Hidden gems that I've found so far...CC of Columbus, Achasta, Long Shadow, and Lookout Mountain. I don't think any one of these is anywhere close to being in the Top 100, but they are SWEET courses. I won't bore anyone with details on this thread...but I could!
Concerning the appearence of "seeking access", huh? I'm not asking anyone to invite me anywhere...I don't know who belongs to where and even if I did I wouldn't ask...in fact, I know a lot of people who are very well connected and I can probably get on 90% of courses in the U.S...so that is not an issue with me...but I have offered and will continue to offer to host people (GCA members or not) at some excellent Atlanta-based courses.
In short, I am sincere in my postings and I have no hidden agendas. I am in love with golf. I am intrigued by the games history and the architecture inherent in timeless gems. I find it fascinating that a course could have been created 50, 100, or more years ago and people still play it and love it. Timeless!
Anyway, I will shut up now and listen as I am very interested in learning from this feedback.
Thanks again!
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Royal New Kent - Traditional Irish Links, on a lovely and inspiring layout. I adore the large greens - which give plenty of opportunity for strategy and lovely views truly help captivate you during a round.
Tobacco Road - What a fantastic course - with vistas and shots to make your heart smile and enough quality golf to make the trip worthwhile.
Both are Strantz designs, and whilst there may be many whom don't like his style - what I discovered playing these for the first time was just how remarkable and memorable each hole and course is. Bold, casual, challenging, are words that encompass both Royal New Kent and Tobacco Road.
NGLA - Many here argue the merits of holes/architecture/architectural intent etc. because they like to - and that is their right - but bottom line this course produces as many great memories as any course in the States, and is on most golfer's short list of must plays.
Household names like Alps, Redan, Double Plateau, Eden, Leven, Narrows, Punchbowl are synonymous with the very history of the game.
Good luck and godspeed!
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Mac
I'd suggest you get upto Bandon and play Old Macdonald in mid 2010 along with the other courses there. Will give you some good insights into what to expect for your 2011 trip to Scotland.
In 2011 - I'd certainly recommend you play North Berwick for the uniqueness of some of the holes + it's template holes as well. If time is on your side I'd also recommend you drive upto Royal Dornoch for a special golfing experience. Depends on how much time you have ?
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Awesome...
RS...I am hitting Tobacco Road during my Pinehurst trip on May...I am pumped and will let you know my thoughts.
Kevin...You touched on an area that I need help with. I love the idea of hit Bandon Dunes in 2010, but I am unsure if my finances and time available will make that a possibility...but I will certainly keep considering it. Also, you touched on an area that I need serious help with. In 2011, I am hitting The Old Course but I am unsure what else to play. I love the North Berwick idea and I am lining up Muirfield and Musselburgh. I am a history fanatic so Musselburgh is a must for me. Should I make a run up to Dornoch during this trip? Is that too much? Is hitting Cruden Bay on the way up there a good idea as well or is it too much? I really would love some thoughts and ideas on this trip. I want to maximize my experience, but I don't want to over do it.
Thanks again...I am taking notes on all of these ideas!
Mac
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Mac:
If you are interested in studying the history of American golf architecture I suggest you start at the beginning of it with the seminal break-through designs of the early years such as Myopia, GCGC, Oakmont, NGLA, Merion East, Pine Valley, Piping Rock etc. Those are the ones that got the most attention back then that I know and have studied. That will get you to about the mid-teens and from there into the 1920s things started to really bubble. If you want to study the rudimentary stuff that sort of came before them or at the same time unfortunately not much of that exists anymore but there are plenty of photos and such of it for you to compare and contrast to the ones mentioned above.
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Mac, if you are planning a Scotland trip, best to search for the thread of Kyle Henderson's from when he was planning his raid. It's encyclopaedic and has some great advice, info and links.
As one down south, I've got to say England deserves a thought from those heading over from the US. It surprises me that many visitors head to Scotland (and Ireland) with blinkers on and don't give England a second thought.
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Mac:
One thing to remember is that Scotland (like Ireland) doesn't have motorways (Freeways) to the less populated areas, so what might look quite short on a map, can sometimes take a very long time to travel.
I would say there are more than enough courses of interest in the Fife and Edinburgh areas. You have Elie, Kingsbarns, Carnoustie, Gullane, Noth Berwick, Muirfield not to mention all the courses at St. Andrews. Save Dornoch for later, so you'll have to come back to Scotland again.
Scott:
I agree that people underestimate England. One thing I've learned from the recent threads on Prestbury, Seascale, Pulborough etc is that England shouldn't be forgotten about. There seem to be some great 2nd and even 3rd tier courses there.
Dónal.
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Scott:
I agree that people underestimate England. One thing I've learned from the recent threads on Prestbury, Seascale, Pulborough etc is that England shouldn't be forgotten about. There seem to be some great 2nd and even 3rd tier courses there.
Dónal.
There are also some spectacular first-tier courses here...
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Scott:
Yes, I totally agree; I was just singing my praise for the hidden gems. Lancashire must be one of the best regions in the UK, but there are so many more. There are several places that come to mind in England where the "curriculum" is more than enough to "educate" the golfer.
Dónal.
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Mac:
There is a pretty good list of Courses Worth Study in the back of my book, The Anatomy of a Golf Course. The book was published in 1991 so it doesn't include all the new stuff, but there is plenty of learn from before 1991.
Keep in mind that this is a lifetime study. I've been at it for more than 30 years and I am still learning, even though I had seen most everything by the time I was 25. You aren't going to cover it all in a two-week trip to Scotland. And, on that point: if you really want to learn the subject, you would be better off really STUDYING a few courses than just seeing as many as you can.
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Guys...awesome...please keep it coming.
Tom Doak...I do have your book and have looked at the information in the back. For where I am, it is a bit overwhelming to me. But I will continue to refer to it read it and use it as a study guide and I am sure my knowledge base will increase.
Furthermore, Tom you NAILED it!!! I really want to study these timeless gems. I am not 100% sure how to do that, but I will use my approach to the Old Course as a starting point.
First off, it is the most iconic course in the world in my mind. The Home of Golf and I must play it. However, in addition to simply playing it I want to appreciate it. So I am reading about it, asking question about it, and studying it....recall my last few posts referencing some of the quotes from "The Links".
Secondly, I have read a lot about peoples opinions about TOC. Some love it, some hate it. So, I dug deeper into why people either love it or hate it. What I think I found is that it is #1 difficult and #2 quirky.
Thirdly, to enjoy it I am really working on my game in an attempt to overcome the difficult part of it. I am making progress. I played Kiawah Ocean is 30 mph winds and played (and scored) wel enough to appreciate/enjoy it. So, I am coming around on that end of the spectrum.
Fourthly, Regarding the quirky. I am of the mindset that studying the course and its quirks will open my mind up as to why these quirks are there what they are challenging you to decide and execute on the course
By, doing this I hope to be able to see why it has been around for so long and enjoyed for so long. And therefore I hope to be able to apprecite its impact on golf architecture.
Anyway, this post is not about the Old Course but about all the courses that need to be studied and learned from (hence the title of the thread).
I named the courses I've played simply to show people what I've seen and what I know. Take this for what it is worth and add in those other gems that I need to see.
NGLA has been named...another profound and important course. I haven' t began stuying it yet, but I will one day soon.
North Berwkcik...my understanding is that that courses features and holes were revolutinoary and its impact is still being felt today. The Redan there is supposed to be one of the best in the world, correct.
Concerning the length of time it will take to learn all of this...a lifetime...no doubt. I simply listed what I was doing over the next two years to give you all a sense of what I am already set to see and to also give some credence to the fact that I am not talking B.S. I am commited to learning and seeing these gems.
Awesome stuff gys...please keep it coming. I am so excited to be on this journey and also to be so near its beginning...it is thrilling to me!
Thanks!
Also, if anyone on this site ever wants to join me on a trip or two...let me know...that would be super cool!!
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Scott...
I found Kyle Henderson's Scotland thread. Excellent stuff. I will use its content to assist me. Thanks.
Mac
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Mac,
I look at your appeal as similar to the time when I began seriously collecting live performances of enduring touring bands. I had a nice collection going, with many of the unanimously praised performances in tow; I knew of a few I didn't have; and I wanted to strike out on my own discovering for myself about little-collected performances that most of the collecting community either ignored or had already categorized as not worth their time.
In that vein, I offer these from my Westchester-CT-Long Island area.
MUST SEE (for every reason that architecture is observed and played)
NGLA
Winged Foot East
Yale
Fishers Island
Shinnecock
POSSESS A WEALTH OF ENJOYABLE, EDUCATIONAL FEATURES
Bethpage Black - superb variety of topography from flats to valleys to elevations, the 4th hole (which I think is the finest hole of iits size I've seen), strategic driving angles, heroic paths, broad green design, Tillinghast's routing nod(s) to Pine Valley, general "out and back" quality of the routing brings a serene isolation from other cares and sharpens focus for playing. Though mitigated by the difficulties presented to walking, a round at BB has an excellent sense of adventure like a pine forest hike.
CC of Fairfield - though hodge-podged from 1930s floods and RTJ's subsequent re-routing work, a little-played masterpiece of Raynor imprint. The breathtaking "Sound-side" property is an undeniable advantage, but the courses make the highest and best use of such an awesome locale. Individually there are no indifferent shots, every one holds your focus with some element of danger and opportunity and makes for a proportionally tough four, the more you want to play safely - the longest holes won't reward with fours at all with safe play, unless you have great one-putt fortune. You play to all directions of the compass and traverse all corners of the property, revisiting various sections as you play a subsequent hole. You get semi- camouflaged peeks at upcoming holes and go by interesting perspectives of holes already played. You feel connected to the entire round and the entire course as you play one individual hole and each one individual shot. And after all that wonderfulness... the wind blows. And everything changes; that which was easy becomes nearly impossible, while two and three shot holes can be reached in one fewer.The safe line disappears and becomes the one most fraught with danger while the best play - still fretful - is out over a blindness or near a beach boundary. Little flat bunkers (often no more hazardous than a change of ground surface) that are laughably easy to carry in calm or downwind conditions become Sahara-like sentinels against four when the wind is in the face or quartering. When conditions compound, par means nothing on a single hole or for the course. Please look at the course profile in the Architecture timeline section - it is a well done piece that might give you the added visual zest to track this one down. The only reason I didn't put it in the MUST SEE column is because the property is ridiculously ideal and perfect (architectural history might be greatly different if every architect worked on such a site) and three of the RTJ reworks #1 #11 and #17 are somewhat discordant with the overall experience described; ie - they are a little bland, higher on penal challenge than strategic provocation.
Garden City
Siwanoy
Apawamis
For the purposes of your quest(s) I think all three of these short small former national championship courses will offer a lot of architectural insight into what the best architecture does enduringly...provide amusement and engagement for golfers of different skills, not merely challenge their ability to swing properly. They are completely separate and distinct in their origins and have an architectural lineage (in both design and recent restoration) of three different architectutal camps (Travis & D. Emmet for GCGC, Ross for Siwanoy, Dunn, "Members" & Strong for Apawamis). All three were created and already morphing in the pre-game and first half of the Golden Age. They each have a residue of the quirky, (now-charming) 1892-1901 designs and each mix a disparate amount of ridiculous-looking, sublime and straightforward shot vistas. Even though none of the three were thought "short" in their first 20 years, they are so now, yet each retain their challenge to score via routing that absolutely goes from the green back to the tee. I listed them in about the order I would rank them, but in many ways I would place their "gotta see it" priority in the reverse order. That would put Apawamis first on the list and I'm comfortable saying that - because that little inscrutible beast almost grins at you like a fairy-tale Rumpelstiltskin with its frustrating blinds and pitted vistas. Most of that course feels a 1905 casino/amusement park, but everything is within an average golfer's competence. Siwanoy has fewer visual tricks and arcane hazard, but has the most wickedly sublime slippery contour in its ultra-tiny green complexes while the unchanged routing still defies the worth of mere long-driving. It's also beautifully suburban and is routed expertly across changing topography. I'll leave it to others to more fully describe GCGC as i've only played it once and caddied on it twice, but I can say the coordination is the same: all three courses developed in different ways, on three different properties, by three different architectural inspirations, all retaining the antique feel while satisfying the modern challenges. All three demand an imaginative overall game and general competency in all areas that comprise sound play, especially play from 60 yards and in to the target. They all represent the application of architectural design principles (though many shovels have touched all three) as they were evolving in the first rich period ca. 1898-1919.
Cheers
vk
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Getting west of the suggested, Lawsonia, in Green Lake Wisconsin. is one that jumps to my mind worthy of study. Built in '29 it's amazing to see and learn from.
Another obtuse study would "El Conquistador" in Cortez, Colorado. A Press Maxwell, designed in '61, but, the back nine was built in '80. The difference in construction techniques is evident with the lay of the land front nine. The entire original routing took 20 years to come to fruition. Might as well throw in Forrest Richardson's The Hideout, in Monticello, Utah, since it's close by and has plenty to appreciate since it was turned into an 18 hole after being just nine for many many years.
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Banff and Jasper, the par 3's alone are worth the trip
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Mac,
If you live in Atlanta, why not start with Athens CC, Palmetto, Aiken Golf Club,Augusta CC,Camden CC?
Caladonia, True Blue etc..Legends Heathland ,Tobacco Road, Pine needles, Southern Pines etc.
Obviously you can get in quite a bit during your trip to Scotland, but some of the suggested trips might quickly bust the budget.
And if you're looking for bang for your architectural buck, I'd certainly skip Sea Island (nice place but major expensive) and focus on above options. Of course I'd skip Vegas too .
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North Berwick...my understanding is that that courses features and holes were revolutinoary and its impact is still being felt today. The Redan there is supposed to be one of the best in the world, correct.
Mac,
Not only is NB's Redan one of the best in the World, there is a rumour around here that it was also the Original Redan ;) But seriously, NB is a must see!
If you are planning a trip to Scotland to study golf architecture, rather than to be able to head home and tell folks all the course you played, then I'd suggest spending some time in St Andrews to play TOC more than once. You also need to decide will this be your only trip across the pond, or can you leave a few courses out till you next head over here? Its never too early to start planning... And as Scott says, dont be afriad to head south of the border.
One of the key things about Scotland is that golf is a game for everyone. It seems as though every little village has a nine hole course at least, be it by the coast or up in the hills. So if you have half a day, head inland to one of these wee courses, pop your money in the honesty box (that many work on) and experience a different way of life.
Scott,
The way you keep singing the praises of England's courses, this country must have really hooked you! Any chance that you fancy turning out for the cricket team? Current selection policy seems to be based upon being from a country other than England that is better than us at cricket... ;D
Cheers,
James
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I would second Adam's suggestion of Lawsonia should you be in the upper Midwest...incredible stuff.
For a looksy at the "minimalism" side of things, Wild Horse would be a good example, but pretty far to trek from where you are.
In Scotland...besides TOC and North Berwick (which are great "studies") I'd also suggest Cruden Bay and Prestwick.
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Nice!
James...I was considering simply playing The Old Course for 5 days in a row and walk it and watch others play it during the time I am not playing it. I was thinking of asking this question, but I was a little hesitant due to the fact that maybe that sounds crazy.
Also, you talk about playing courses just to tell people I played them...I am not into that, but frankly I am not sure when/if I will go back. And, hence, my issues/concerns. What if I go there and don't like it enough to justify the cost and all I did was play TOC. Tough decisions, which is why I am sincerely asking for advice and guidance. Worst case scenario, I go there and don't like its cost-benefit results. Therefore, I have some must plays...TOC and Musselburgh are musts for me. I am really thinking I have to play TOC more than once...maybe 5 times is overkill...but maybe not. Along the worst case scenario line of thinking...if I go there and don't like it but see amazing and historical courses, it is worth it. North Berwick needs to be added, I think. And I think you are right that I need to play some smaller lesser known courses...if for nothing else than the feel.
Of course, best case scenario...I go, love it, and go back on a regular basis, and get hit all the gems over time. Tough decisions right now.
Jeff...love it. I will take notes of those courses. Vegas...got to go for March Madness, golf is secondary there. Sea Island...I have avoided it thus far due to stupid cost, but the discounts they are offering now make this a once in a lifetime opportunity for me.
Ryan...Banff and Japser..oh yeah...they are on my list!!!
Adam...Lawonia is HIGH up my list...I think it has the potential to be an over looked Gem. El Conquistodor...awesome. I never heard of it...I will check it out. Sweet!
Great stuff gusy, great stuff!!!
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Ok...
I have been reviewing and researching a lot of the courses named in this thread. Some are new to me, some are not.
Per his recommendation, I busted out Tom Doak's "Anatomy of a Golf Course" book and reviewed the lists he mentioned that are in the back of the book. Although there are a bunch of courses he listed that I am clueless regarding their story or history, I have nevertheless made a spreadsheet and listed them all with notation regarding the reasons why he said they are worthy of study.
The following courses meet most of his criteria...
Crystal Downs
Merion-East
Pine Valley
Prairie Dunes
Prestwick
Royal Melbourne
Based on this and the suggestions on this thread, I think it would be important to visit Prestwick on my Scotland trip. As it appears to be a must play/study course. Any disagreements?
Also, many have suggested visiting lesser known courses (I like to call these hidden gems). Any thoughts regarding these hidden gems? Location isn't of the utmost importance as I am not afraid of traveling to see some courses.
Thansks again!
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Kevin...You touched on an area that I need help with. I love the idea of hit Bandon Dunes in 2010, but I am unsure if my finances and time available will make that a possibility...but I will certainly keep considering it. Also, you touched on an area that I need serious help with. In 2011, I am hitting The Old Course but I am unsure what else to play. I love the North Berwick idea and I am lining up Muirfield and Musselburgh. I am a history fanatic so Musselburgh is a must for me. Should I make a run up to Dornoch during this trip? Is that too much? Is hitting Cruden Bay on the way up there a good idea as well or is it too much? I really would love some thoughts and ideas on this trip. I want to maximize my experience, but I don't want to over do it.
Mac
Sorry for the delay in coming back to you - have been quite busy
You could just stay in around Fife there's plenty of good golf to be had at St. Andrews besides TOC - I'd also recommned a walk around the layout on a closed Sunday. I'd certainly recommend the 3 you mentioned around East Lothian as well. Musselburgh is a short day out to boot and great fun.
Dornoch is worth the effort to get to depends on how much time you have ? I think you can get a connecting flight out of Inverness to some major connecting terminals int he UK ? Remember it gets dark so late in summer that you can tee off around 7PM and still have enough light for a quick game. When I was there a couple of guys had driven all the way up from Heathrow just to get there in a day ;D
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Try to play the top 3 to 5 courses of all the top architects, living and dead. As you go along, you will learn all u need to.
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It sounds goofy, but also check out some clunkers. Anybody over 40 can tell you we learn a lot more from failure than from success.
I'll leave the definition of 'clunker' to you ;)
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Dan...
I think you are on to something with the "clunkers". I've got some in mind that are close by where I live...I will be hitting them in the coming weeks.
I think you and Adam (I think that is who mentioned playing "dog tracks") mentioned the learning that can transpire by looking at these courses in contrast to the better courses.
I will let you know my thoughts, but I will spare the courses the public humiliation and won't mention their names...as I am sure some are enjoying them on a daily basis.
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Everyone learns differently, but for me the course-to-course-to-course-to-course approach is overrated. I learn most by spending as much time as possible trying to figure one or a couple of courses. I would submit that if a course is truly excellent then you can learn more by playing it a second or third or fourth or fifth time, as compared to playing each of these rounds at a different excellent course. In other words, you might be better off playing five rounds on one excellent course than one round each on five different excellent courses.
Also, one can learn quite a lot from reading the books by the old masters and by really studying a book like Doak's Anatomy of a GC, and then thinking about these things out on the course. It may not help your score but it might help you understand what is going on with the design. (To me it is odd that people will pay such high sums for the Confidential Guide when they can learn so much from Anatomy at a fraction of the cost.)
Also, if you ever get a chance to periodically look in on an excellent team as they create a course or even a golf hole, take the opportunity as it is a tremendous learning experience. And ask questions.
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David...love your ideas.
Tell me more about periodically looking in on a team as they create a golf hole. Do you mean actually go to a site where an architect is building a course/hole and keep going back over time to see how it progesses? I think that is what you mean. That sounds so awesome!!!!!!!!! What a great idea! You see the raw land, you see the ideas on the sketch board (so the speak), you get the gist of what they are doing and why, and then you see the raw land transformed before you very eyes. Right?
Ok...is it common place that designers will let some Joe Schmoe look over their shoulder? If so, how should I go about doing this?
Not to be redundant, but I love all your ideas and thoughts on this one!
Thanks!
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I don't know if it is common or not, but I've gotten to know a few people who have been kind enough to allow me to peek in on their projects at various stages. Like I said, it is probably an if you get the chance type of thing, and I think I probably have gotten lucky by being in the right place at the right time. But when allowed the chance to look in I've tried to take it even when it wasn't totally convenient for me, and I make an effort to be respectful to everyone and well out of the way so my presence will not interfere or burden anyone, and try to keep the time where anyone might have had to be responsible for me to a minimum. I don't know for sure, but this may have made it easier from them to allow me back a at later stages. It also probably hasn't hurt that I am mostly interested in courses where the design teams are very hands on and appreciate those who are truly interested in what they are trying to accomplish.
Depending on the design team, changes, repairs, renovations, restorations, and redos are also a good chance to get a feel for how the process works. It is easy to see the "before;" oftentimes the course may still accessible in the "during;" and it is again accessible in the "after."
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Mac,
It is hard to imagine that anywhere in the US can give you as much interesting GCA at one time than a trip to Bandon.
Having the ability to play these courses in 36 hole clips over a week or so would be a really cool and knowledge building experience.
There are a lot of great private clubs on Long Island or in Monterrey that would be wonderful to visit as well but let's face it, Bandon is public and invites to the most prestigious clubs in the country do not come quite as easy as booking a flight (even if it is out to Bandon).
Of course, starting at TOC is probably the best thing any GCA buff could do - chapeau!
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Three American classics from which much can be learned:
Merion (East): It shows how a course can have endless variety in its set of greens without having any greens that appear out of place. I demonstrates that a course can be highly strategic and still be a test for the world's best. The 5th Hole is for me, the highest form in lay-of-the-land architecture. It possesses strategy for every level of golfer, is a bear for the best players, and disturbs as little earth as possible.
Garden City: Emmet and Travis display how to create interest and strategy on a very modest piece of land. Emmet's routing also shows how to make the best out of an awkwardly-shaped property. It is the best walking course that I have seen.
Yeamans Hall: This club shows that the wild, rough-around-the-edges ground game is still alive and well in the US. It displays some of Raynor's most wild green complexes that no architect would dare build today. It also showcases Seth Raynor as the most underrated router of the Golden Age.
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Rob and JNC...I didn't see your post until today. Great stuff.
JNC...very thought provoking stuff. A friend of mine belongs to Yeamans and I will have to check it out.
Rob...here's the deal. I've been scared of Bandon Dunes thus far, as it is walking only. And I know I could get a handicapped cart, but I always feel like a tool when I do that. The doctor said by mid 2010, I should be pain free and able to walk. Perhaps, I could meet you at Bandon and walk a few rounds together after that time? Melvyn and you have inspired me to become a walking golfer...I will make it, but I am unsure as to the timing.
Also as an update...this weekend I am heading to play World Woods (Pine Barrens), Black Diamond Ranch (Quarry), and TPC Sawgrass. I am really excited about it...but I am a bit nervous as my legs are not where I had hoped they would be..but oh well, I will gut it out.
But after this trip, I am hitting some "clunkers" or "dog tracks" in my local area...as y'all have suggested it.
I'll let you know my progess.
Also...I "Scotlands Gift" arrived last night!!!! I've already started...what a great book...thus far!!
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Also as an update...this weekend I am heading to play World Woods (Pine Barrens), Black Diamond Ranch (Quarry), and TPC Sawgrass. I am really excited about it...but I am a bit nervous as my legs are not where I had hoped they would be..but oh well, I will gut it out.
Not sure how much time you have during your World Woods visit. The Dunes at Seville is also worth a look and pretty economical. I didn't get a chance to see Brooksville CC, but I think those that played there would recommend it as well. If you're trying to learn from courses, it's always good to see a variety of approaches to courses in a similar area.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37030.msg758620/#msg758620
And if you need to ride, ride! 99% of us don't care what other people do.
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Mac,
I totally understand your personal situation in regards to walking - if you need to ride at Bandon then by all means do - if you can walk a hole here or there then great, if not, it doesn't matter. 99% of people who can walk Bandon will not appreciate it anywhere near as much as you.
BDGR is a special place and the gca is out of this world good - it is right up your alley.
When, not if, you make it out there just let me know so we can tee it up.
You have three great courses on the docket this w/e - enjoy!
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Mac
I admit to a bias in this direction, but I would look into some of the wonderful courses which are very short by today's standards - say less than 6000 from the daily tees. I think getting to know this type of course will cure any inkling that greatness lies with 7000 yards and a par of 72.
Ciao
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Ok…I am back from my Florida boondoggle. I haven’t “officially” posted my reviews on the courses as first I would love some feedback on the following holes.
The first is 17 on the Black Diamond Ranch Quarry course. The tees I played from were about 6500 yards in total length. This hole is a 225 par 3 from an elevated tee to an extremely narrow green with dramatic slopes. When I first played it, I thought it was unfair and too quirky. But as the days wore on, I found myself thinking more and more about the hole and wanting to play it again and again. So, is this hole a great one or too quirky?
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/BDQuarry17.jpg)
The next on is the 15th on TPC Sawgrass. It is a 416 yard par 4. The view is from the tee box. It is the narrowest “shoot” I’ve ever seen from a tee box. Is it okay or too narrow?
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Sawgrass15-1.jpg)
The final one is 15 at World Woods Pine Barrens. I fell in love with it immediately. From the tees I played it is a 312 yard par 4. You can take the fairway to the left or try to drive over the slop to the right. It is about 200 to carry the water and 230 to carry the sand. And of course 312 to drive the green, but there are traps/bunkers all over. I love its risk/reward and the play it safe route that it provides. Am I off base or on the money concerning my thoughts on this hole?
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/pinebarrens15II.jpg)
Thanks in advance!
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The next on is the 15th on TPC Sawgrass. It is a 416 yard par 4. The view is from the tee box. It is the narrowest “shoot” I’ve ever seen from a tee box. Is it okay or too narrow?
I vote ok. I did not recall the chute being that narrow on 15. Many older courses in the midwest have narrower gaps. The fairway is pretty wide although you need to choose the correct line due to its curving nature.
The final one is 15 at World Woods Pine Barrens. I fell in love with it immediately. From the tees I played it is a 312 yard par 4. You can take the fairway to the left or try to drive over the slop to the right. It is about 200 to carry the water and 230 to carry the sand. And of course 312 to drive the green, but there are traps/bunkers all over. I love its risk/reward and the play it safe route that it provides. Am I off base or on the money concerning my thoughts on this hole?
I have only played it once and would need to play it multiple times to form an opinion. I tried the right hand side and, while I was successful off the tee, I did not see that it gained me much.
My memory could be a little too hazy from that round, however.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/pinebarrens15II.jpg)
Thanks in advance!
[/quote]
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While I really like WWPB, 15 might be the most overrated hole on the planet. Gets way too much ink IMO. Its a good hole but people fawn over it like its 10 at Riviera or 9 at CPC.
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Jason and Sean...
Please elaborate on Pine Barrens.
I hit over the sand/water and was left with an 70ish yard chip. If you play the left side, what is left?
Sean...why is it over-rated? And, yes, I am serious and not bating you in for any reason. When I saw it I LOVED it and was pumped to play it. Perhaps I was taken in by the beauty, perceived gain of driving the water, etc.
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Mac,
in Scotland I would check out the following in addition to the old course:
Carnoustie
Kingsbarns
Prestwick
Western Gailes
In the states, get to:
Kingsley
Lawsonia
Lost Dunes
Shore Acres
Bethpage Black
All the Bandon Courses
just for starters!
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Mac, here's a schematic of the hole from the WW website (based on Toms-Mickelsen SWWOG match):
(http://www.worldwoods.com/_filelib/ImageGallery/World%20Woods/shells%20photos/Pinero15.jpg)
If you can make the carry on the direct line to the green - which can be daunting depending on the tee you play -- there is a pretty simple pitch left to get a birdie.
If you play safely out into the Elysian Fields on the left, you are left with a difficult downhill pitch to a green that slopes away from you pretty sharply, very difficult to get close.
So pick your poison, I think it's a terrific option hole and a great short par 4, maybe my favorite Fazio hole.
Last time there I hit it up to the left and somehow managed to drive it into the little pot bunker. I was lucky enough to draw a good lie and hit a PW to 5' and made birdie. Proving once again that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
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Jason and Sean...
Please elaborate on Pine Barrens.
I hit over the sand/water and was left with an 70ish yard chip. If you play the left side, what is left?
Sean...why is it over-rated? And, yes, I am serious and not bating you in for any reason. When I saw it I LOVED it and was pumped to play it. Perhaps I was taken in by the beauty, perceived gain of driving the water, etc.
Mac,
I've played PB about 20 times. 15 is a wonderful match play hole, particularily because it presents its self so late in the round. I have found no advantage to playing up the left side. I have a few times when I've been struggling off the tee or my opponent is in trouble, but I've found the pitch from the left quite awkward. Typcially 60-80 yards and if the pin is in the front or on the left, you have a tough time seeing the bottom. I can't remember the last time I did lay up. For that matter, 14 is a wonderful match play hole as well. A well placed drive often leaves a reachable 2nd shot if the wind is not hurting. It took me a number of rounds to realize that this was a hole to challenge.
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re PB 15: I've seen guys make that pitch from the left and hit what looked to be good pitch shots only to have their balls land on the downslope and skid well beyond the hole. From the front entry (direct line from the tee) the pitch is much more manageable imo.
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Interesting...
So, perhaps, what might appear to be the "risky" shot is the sensible shot. Very cool/tricky.
I like the hole even more now!!!
Thanks y'all!!!
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Interesting...
So, perhaps, what might appear to be the "risky" shot is the sensible shot. Very cool/tricky.
That's one of the real treats of great gca Mac!
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Okay, I’ve taken your advice and played another “clunker”. Prior to today’s round, I had played 2 of them. After my second clunker, a friend of mine said that “life is too short to play bad golf courses.” Based on this outlook, I have been avoiding them. However, based on Adam C., Dan H., and Donal’s advice I changed my mind on this. You all have said that in order to fully appreciate the gems, I need to experience the duds. And let me say “Thanks”…you guys are right on so many levels. Humor me and allow me to detail my latest experience.
First off, it has been very rainy here in Atlanta…with this in mind, my home course has been wet, a little soggy here or there, but all in all very playable despite this rain. However, the “clunker” (whose name will remain hidden) was wet, soggy, muddy, nasty and pretty darn close to unplayable. Is a drainage issue like this bad architecture or bad maintenance or both?
Nevertheless, I didn’t let this deter me and I played it anyway. Another thing that struck me is the lack of variety regarding the holes and the challenges presented on the course as a whole and on the individual holes. Most shots were straight. No need for a strategy on the holes…no need to work a draw or a fade…no risk/reward shots. Simply hit it straight a few times, chip and putt…and then tee it up on the next hole.
With shots like this, that feeling of excitement and drama was lacking. You never felt that rush of trying to hit a high flying approach and just carry a bunker…but not too far as another one was waiting just over the back of the green. Etc.
This type of stuff is definitely architecture related.
Another interesting issue were the bunkers. Due to the rain, the sand was hard packed and brick hard. I was in two or three bunkers and raking them wasn’t needed when I left them as my feet left no imprints. Maintenance issue…I think…but maybe the architecture left poor drainage in place?
Final point on the course…the greens. They were shaggy and pock marked. Obvious maintenance issue. Many putts were thrown off line as they rolled over old ball marks. Not a fun experience.
Nevertheless, I found the experience extremely worthwhile, enjoyable, and enlightening for two main reasons.
The first is why I went in the first place and that was to appreciate quality architecture and learn more about golf course architecture in general. After this round, I went to my home club, St. Ives, to play. The quality of St. Ives really came out after this experience. The heroic carries, strategy on shots and holes, the variety, etc…and the level of maintenance and the standard of upkeep regarding the course really was brought forth. And St. Ives is not a Top 100 courses and, frankly, is not anywhere near a Top 100 course. It is a really nice residential golf course designed by Tom Fazio in a family friendly country club that is 10 minutes from my home. It is perfect for me and my family of 4.
The other reason my trip was worthwhile, enjoyable, and enlightening was directly related to who I got paired up with. You see, I went as a single and was teamed up with a father and his son (who was home from college on Thanksgiving vacation). They were just learning the game and in fact this was the fourth time they had ever been on a golf course. They were nervous to be teamed up with me and they thought I was some big time experienced golfing pro. I told them I was new to the game as well and we were simply going to have fun…which we did. They actually were pretty good, all things considered. But what was so cool about it was seeing how this “clunker” of a golf course could be used by a father and son to bond for 3-4 hours, learn the game together, and have a life-long activity they could enjoy together. I think CB MacDonald said, “Some golf is better than no golf”…or something like that. I couldn’t agree more. And, once again, this showed me how powerful and magical this game is…no matter where you play it.
Adam, Dan, and Donal (and all of you)…THANKS!!! This turned out to be yet another perspective setting and, potentially, life enhancing experience!!!
But hey…3 “clunkers”…is that enough?!?!?!? Please say yes!!!
:)
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Hey Mac, I wouldn't get too carried away with playing clunkers if you have a decent memory! Besides, you will run into many clunker holes on perfectly serviceable courses and on good courses. In fact, many believe that a dubious hole or two on a great course can help that course be great. I am not sure why, but folks have said such things.
Ciao
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I think CB MacDonald said, “Some golf is better than no golf”…or something like that. I couldn’t agree more. And, once again, this showed me how powerful and magical this game is…no matter where you play it.
Adam, Dan, and Donal (and all of you)…THANKS!!! This turned out to be yet another perspective setting and, potentially, life enhancing experience!!!
But hey…3 “clunkers”…is that enough?!?!?!? Please say yes!!!
:)
Mac:
Yes, 3 is enough. As Sean said, you'll play some average courses that have some pretty bad holes as well.
Given the chance, I'd prefer to play a clunker than stay at home watching day time TV. Just getting out for a few hours, knocking a little white ball around, and breathing in some fresh air is what it's all about. Anything else is a bonus!
I have probably only played one really terrible (maybe terrible is a bit strong a word, but it was pretty bad) course in my lifetime, and only perhaps 6-7 of the holes were stinkers. I won't mention its name (I don't think anybody on GCA.com has played it) as it has been improved since I last played it. It was always prone to flooding, so all the tees and greens were built up about 1 foot higher than the fairway. The fairways were very hairy as they couldn't run their tractor and gang-mower due to the soggy ground. It was just terrible playing to the same elevated type of greeen, hole after hole. If your ball landed one foot short of the green it stayed there. There were no bunkers as they would have filled with water everytime there was a heavy downpour. I'm glad it has been renovated in recent years. So, 3 clunkers is definitely enough.
Dónal.
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Questions…
Over the last few weeks, I have the great opportunity to play some very good golf courses…Augusta CC, Sea Island Seaside, and Sea Island Plantation. Keeping things along the lines of courses to learn from, I would love to pick your guys brains on a few things…
#1—I’ve played a few Ross courses to date. At three of them (Inverness, CC Of Columbus, and Augusta CC), I’ve noticed very similar greens especially in terms of undulations. However, East Lake’s greens are distinctly flatter and faster. Am I correct to assume that these undulating greens are Ross’ hallmark and Rees Jones altered East Lake’s greens to accommodate the PGA players while they tee it up at the Tour Championship?
#2—While at Sea Island, I read the clubs history in a book called “At the end of the oaks”…I think it was. That book stated that Colt and Alison (Alison really) built the now current back nine at Seaside, which makes this the first Colt/Alision course I’ve played. However, Fazio re-did it in 1999. These greens are distinctly different any other Fazio I’ve played. The question is this…are Colt/Alison known for their undulating and interesting greens and, therefore, these greens the product of them OR is Fazio simply dynamic and uses a wide variety of architectural techniques to develop different features on courses and, therefore, these greens are Fazio’s idea?
#3—Many of you told me not play Plantation as I wouldn’t enjoy it as much as Seaside. I decided to play it anyway to see it and learn from it. You all were right, Seaside is much better…but I am glad I played Plantation. I would describe it as a nice bowl of vanilla ice cream, which is not too bad!
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I just checked out Ian Andrew's Caddyshack site. Awesome stuff!!! Thanks, Ian.
He said the characterisitics of Alison's work are cross bunkers and the like and BIG bunkers. Check out these shots, 13, I think. From the tee you've got to carry the marsh...but not too much as the hole doglegs left and if you go too long you are in those bunkers.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/SISeaside13ii.jpg)
When you get close the the green...more big bunkers and a crazy green to work with.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/SISeaside13iii.jpg)
Based on all of this, I would conclude that Fazio appears to have done a nice job of sticking with Alison's original intent. Thoughts?
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Mac, YW. And No you can't stop playing what others tell you are dog tracks because they could be wrong. ANd occasionally you will find specific holes which in hindsight might teach you what you feel is great architecture. ;)
I thought 15 at TPC Sawgrass was too much pussy for this dick. Especially at that point in the round. If I ever play there again, I would likely have to play it as a three shot hole. (and still make double or worse) The narrowness and shot demand with water right is too much for a golfer of my ability. Juxtapose that to the 16th, which is a very good hole (with a little too much reliance on a tree) and the 15th is tolerable, if only to get to the closers. As an aside, The old 15th at Pebble use to be somewhat of a breather hole for us higher handicaps. It was a moment in the round where if we were able to hit two relatively straight shots we had a chance for a decent score. (Par or birdie) This is an example of ebb during flow. Opposed to TPC which is all balls to the wall test the best.(Really straightest BOOORRRRING golf)
Your comment about East Lake is likely correct that it has been dumbed down for the pros. The older courses never expected the speed race to get this out of control. Stop the insanity.
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One more thing...
When I played Seaside, it appeared to me to be a links course.
BUT...they overseeded it with rye to keep it green and the course was not fast and firm at all. It was watered daily (I was informed) and it was very green and slow.
That is the exact opposite of how a links course should be maintained, correct?
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Questions…
Over the last few weeks, I have the great opportunity to play some very good golf courses…Augusta CC, Sea Island Seaside, and Sea Island Plantation. Keeping things along the lines of courses to learn from, I would love to pick your guys brains on a few things…
#1—I’ve played a few Ross courses to date. At three of them (Inverness, CC Of Columbus, and Augusta CC), I’ve noticed very similar greens especially in terms of undulations. However, East Lake’s greens are distinctly flatter and faster. Am I correct to assume that these undulating greens are Ross’ hallmark and Rees Jones altered East Lake’s greens to accommodate the PGA players while they tee it up at the Tour Championship?
#2—While at Sea Island, I read the clubs history in a book called “At the end of the oaks”…I think it was. That book stated that Colt and Alison (Alison really) built the now current back nine at Seaside, which makes this the first Colt/Alision course I’ve played. However, Fazio re-did it in 1999. These greens are distinctly different any other Fazio I’ve played. The question is this…are Colt/Alison known for their undulating and interesting greens and, therefore, these greens the product of them OR is Fazio simply dynamic and uses a wide variety of architectural techniques to develop different features on courses and, therefore, these greens are Fazio’s idea?
#3—Many of you told me not play Plantation as I wouldn’t enjoy it as much as Seaside. I decided to play it anyway to see it and learn from it. You all were right, Seaside is much better…but I am glad I played Plantation. I would describe it as a nice bowl of vanilla ice cream, which is not too bad!
Mac
I have never heard Colt or Alison to be known for boldly contoured greens. I am told Alison pushed the boat out a bit in Japan, but I have never seen a Japanese Alison. I have never seen a Colt course I would describe as having strong contours on the greens. As sets his greens are usually quite good, but in no way outstanding. I suspect that if a course has the reputation of bold greens it is down more to green speeds accentuating contours more so than the original intent.
Ciao
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One more thing...
When I played Seaside, it appeared to me to be a links course.
BUT...they overseeded it with rye to keep it green and the course was not fast and firm at all. It was watered daily (I was informed) and it was very green and slow.
That is the exact opposite of how a links course should be maintained, correct?
You are correct.
It's senseless to water daily. Links courses should have a different maintenance meld than their modern aerial assault counterparts. Even every other day would still keep the grass green and allow those who cherish bounce and roll to enjoy a round every other day.
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Well...another wonderful day!!
After taking care of business in the morning, I spent the afternoon with a good friend and client on a golfing mission.
First off, an important visit and paying respects to a true great in the game.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/BobbyJonesgraveI.jpg)
Then off to a "clunker" by some people standards. Charlie Yates golf course in Atlanta. My friend and I heard comments like, "why would you waste your time playing that course?" prior to our round...but let me say...it most certainly is not a "clunker".
It is an executive course, so it isn't going to make any top lists or anything like that. But it is designed by Rees Jones...and say what you will about Mr. Jones...but for him to put together a wonderful course like this in the heart of Atlanta with greens fees of $27 is quite something. The greens are very interesting and the bunkering is top notch.
Also, it is my understanding that the people who maintain it have hopes of making it up to the sister course of Charlie Yates, East Lake. So, the course is in wonderful shape for what it is. The greens are smooth and roll true. It is a very nice golf experience.
Here is the 4th...you hit from a big time elevated tee box to a green that is front by a fairly deep bunker and water looms behind. Kind of generates some drama and some butterflies as you tee it up. Not bad for $27!!
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/CharlieYates4.jpg)
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Ok...quick question.
In a nutshell, is a green that is 18 feet wide, with water in play, to narrow?
Now here is the background...
It was 25 degrees in Atlanta today (12 with windchill). My home course was closed today due to frost, so I had to look elsewhere to play. So, I headed out to St. Marlo.
St. Marlo is a Dennis Griffith course. It is a friggin' bear of a course. Major elevation changes, mega hilly and sloped fairways, narrow fairways, lots of water and small greens. I generally try to avoid it because it isn't all that much "fun" to play in my opinion for a lot of reasons outlined in a recent thread talking about what people don't like on a golf course.
Nevertheless, one hole had me wondering about the architectural thoughts behind the green(s). Specifically, the hole is the 14th. It is a par 4 about 390 yards. Tee box is elevated and the hole plays down hill until it hits a pond which front the green, from there the green is elevated. The green is 18 FEET wide on the ends and 25 FEET wide in the middle. The kicker is that there is about 3 feet of fringe in addition to this 18 feet of green and then slopes straight down to the fronting pond. Behind the green are steep slopes which can serve as a backstop, but these backstops drop into grass bunkers with severe slopes...so you will have a beast of a chip back to that narrow green with water behind it.
So...on my approach I have 150 to160 to the pin. Given the temp and wind I grab 6 iron. I hit it flush for a few moments I think I may have holed it. But it draws just a smidge. Since the pin is in the front and in the exact center of the green, I've got 9 feet to work with before the fringe and then 3 more feet before I am wet. My shot (which is exactly pin high) hits the fringe hops left, rolls down the hill into the water.
I missed the pin by about 10 feet to the left and suffered a penalty. I knew this was a potential outcome, so I didn't get mad. I kept my cool, took my drop...got up and down and moved on. But I kept thinking about this hole (and the many other small greens, many of which have water around them as well, on the course).
Are these small greens and water mix a wise idea for an architect to use liberally on a golf course? I am thinking no, because it makes the course so challenging, frustating, etc.
Thoughts?
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Mac,
Please don't say that you were the guy who left the range ball on Jones' grave. ;D
That hole sounds rinky dink at best and ricky dickulous at worst. 8 paces wide is too small unless there is some alternate place on the green that's wider.
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Jim...
No, I didn't leave anything at Bobby Jones' grave. I think leaving things there is pretty neat...but I don't get it 100%.
Thanks for the thoughts on the hole. I thought the same, but didn't want to get overly critical during my round and let it eat me up and, therefore, potentially ruin the next holes.
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Mac,
I have no problems with the offerings either, but a range ball is kind of tacky.
As for not being too critical when playing, that's always a smart move, there's plenty of time at the end of a round to do an in depth interview with yourself about what you liked and didn't like, no sense gumming up the works while you're out there.
There was (still is) a hole on a pretty top-notch course in N. Mass that sounds very much like the one you mentioned. It is a near impossibility for a low ball hitter to have any chance of hitting and sticking, unless you played the hole right after a watering, natural or otherwise.
As a low ball hitter, that hole was the main reason I never went back to that course until many years later, after a trajectory change. ;D I still don't understand the rationale behind such holes?? What is the architect thinking?
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Thanks to a GCA member, I had the great opportunity to play Secession this weekend (Thanks a million Joel). Here is one of the best holes on the course...accompanied with perhaps the funniest moment of the round.
Here is the tee shot on 14...
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Secession14.jpg)
Followed by the approach (what a great shot)...
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Secession14approachedit.jpg)
And here is the funny part. How in the heck do you play this shot?!?!? Thanks for the memory Mark!!!
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Secession14Marksapproach.jpg)