[ForkaB]

Paul_T

If you closely read that "Eric" quote you will see that it actually says:

"I'd rather be here, then in Philadelphia."

Regardless of who actually wrote this version (I suspect Eric, himself), the seeming tyop and subtle punctuation elevates the Fields concept to Zen master status.

As for Pine Valley, it is good sport watching you amateur (in the finest sense of the word) historians struggle, yet again, with this attribution issue.  If you are interested, my humble research tells me that the case is closed.  From all that has been said about the course, it is far too good to have been designed by mere mortals such as Colt and/or Crump.

My understanding is that PV was in fact designed by CB Fry who visited the area for a long weekend during WWI (after an uneventful crossing of the "pond" in a captured German U-Boat).  Even though most of the documentation of this episode are still covered by the Official Secrets Act, it is fairly well understood that CB considered the Pine Valley design element of the assignment (the rest of it included planting false evidence for the "Zimmerman telegram") a " mere doddle."  

[T_MacWood]

TE
I don't believe I've criticized the book. I've read most it, its very well written, but there wasn't much info we didn't already know and I was surprised by some info he chose to leave out. For example the cirmcumstances of Crump's death.  Weren't you the one to point out Finegan made a fatal error judging the routing plan? Isn't the books foundation a bit shaky from architectural history point of view? But on the other hand as you also pointed out the book is much more than architectural study, that is only a part of it. We've already explored the course's architectural history more thoroughly on this thread.

Ian
Slowly but surely the mystery will be solved. There are still many unanswered questions. I don't believe you'll ever be able to exclude one man over another, but I believe their roles will be better defined. And the timeline will eventually become more clear as well as many of the circumstances. TE has already debunked several myths, a few more might fall.

[TEPaul]

""I'd rather be here, then in Philadelphia."

Regardless of who actually wrote this version (I suspect Eric, himself), the seeming tyop and subtle punctuation elevates the Fields concept to Zen master status."

Rich:

Fields didn't need any elavating--he was a very clever clown! The "all things considered....." part takes zen master status and all the other bull into account.

[TEPaul]

"And the timeline will eventually become more clear as well as many of the circumstances. We've already debunked several myths, a few more might fall."

I agree. Doing something like establishing a really good timeline is important and applying any 'circumstances' to it that come along should help. When it comes to debunking myths I agree too. In that vein it'd help if you'd list right here which 'myths' you've debunked Tom. I just don't want to see any new ones start. Do either of you two Colt experts know if Harry's business records still exist or would it be better to just leave that alone?  

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

I honestly don't know if Colt's business records still exist.  Hawtree didn't appear to find them when he wrote Colt and Co.

[T_MacWood]

TE
Myth #1 - Harry Colt's only contribution was discovering the 5th hole.

Myth #2 - Colt never produced a routing plan.

It appears you've started a few yourself....time will tell what becomes of them.

Hard to say if Colt's business records exist. We have uncovered some interesting records and company info, but nothing like what exists at the Tuffs Archives. I reckon when he died he had an archive of Ross-ian proportions. Perhpas its out there somewhere.

I also wonder if Crump's correspondances exist, Finegan didn't appear to use any in his book.

[TEPaul]

"In that vein it'd help if you'd list right here which 'myths' you've debunked Tom."

Tom MacW replied:

"TE
Myth #1 - Harry Colt's only contribution was discovering the 5th hole.

Myth #2 - Colt never produced a routing plan.

It appears you've started a few yourself....time will tell what becomes of them."

Tom MacW:

That's really unbelievable. You surely did not debunk myth #1 or #2 that you listed above. It's even on this very thread in the last few days that you've continued to ask me what the meaning and significance was of the red and blue lines on the second routing plan. That's the key that uncovered the fallacy of the long lasting belief that Colt never did a routing plan of PVGC. That happened perhaps three years ago.

With myth #1 that Colt only contributed to the lengthening and reorienting of the 5th hole is simply for those who never did look much into what Colt may have done there. For others who did more research the mention of Colt's contributions by the likes of Hunter, Thomas, Tillinghast and some others definitely indicates more--but what more or how much more?

And to answer that it's necessary to not only compare the first topo routing map to the second one but to also compare when and how those red-lines came onto that topo and when and how they became translated and constructed onto the golf course itself. The red-lines on the second topo map if you don't know it are extremely close to the way the course got built with the exceptions of some holes particularly #12-15. That fact to those who really do know PVGC is pretty obvious although it does appear that Crump may have stopped working with or using that second topo routing map at some earlier point sort of for obvious reasons.

Certainly comparing the Colt booklet to the course is very important and something none of US have been able to do. Comparing all those things with a timeline to any evidence anywhere particularly within PV's archives remains to be done more to make things clearer.

The notion that I'm trying to contribute to ongoing myths or new ones is ridiculous. Just so you understand exactly what I'm talking about regarding Colt I'm the one who discovered the fact that there was a Colt routing, not you. That happened about three years ago and from that fact and the comparison of it to everything else is going to tell the real story of what went on back then.

 

[T_MacWood]

If you look back at my comment I said ‘we’ (as in you, Paul and myself discussing what we know and what we don’t on this thread)….if you’re worried about getting credit I’ll change it to ‘you’…getting credit is not a concern of mine, especially where you deserve it.

There was never any doubt in my mind the Blue line was Colt’s, being familiar with his hand and drawing style (as well as Alison's). My thoughts were only strengthened after seeing #17 from Colt's booklet. My question to you regarding the Red and Blue drawings, was how you determined who did what--did you compare them to other Colt and Crump drawings. In particular I was curious who you thought was the author of the Red and why, although I tend to agree with you it is probably Crump.

“With myth #1 that Colt only contributed to the lengthening and reorienting of the 5th hole is simply for those who never did look much into what Colt may have done there.”  Would you put the club histories into this category (and Baker)?

“That fact to those who really do know PVGC is pretty obvious although it does appear that Crump may have stopped working with or using that second topo routing map at some earlier point sort of for obvious reasons.” Yesterday you placed the timing of the Red between 1913 and Crump’s death—stating you thought it was more or less an evolving drawing.

“Certainly comparing the Colt booklet to the course is very important and something none of US have been able to do.” With the exception of the 17th hole and the booklet and map are identical.

“Comparing all those things with a timeline to any evidence anywhere particularly within PV's archives remains to be done more to make things clearer.” I agree.

“The notion that I'm trying to contribute to ongoing myths or new ones is ridiculous.” No hard feelings, I was just giving you a little bit of your own medicine.

[TEPaul]

“With myth #1 that Colt only contributed to the lengthening and reorienting of the 5th hole is simply for those who never did look much into what Colt may have done there"

Tom MacWood asked:

Would you put the club histories into this category (and Baker)?"

Tom:

I'd put anyone into that category that just didn't understand the significance of some of the nuances on that second routing map that's hung on the wall so long now. And yes that would include the history book writers of PVGC.

However, I would like to say again, and really stress it this time that that oversight truly should be looked at as an innocent error, in probably almost every single case, and only an error of ommission, not commission, no matter how impactful it may seem to be now towards Harry Colt and what he did contribute to the creation of Pine Valley.

I'm fairly convinced that the two former history writers simply may never have even thought to analyze that routing map on the wall. For anyone looking at it to even think that various colored lines may mean something that might distinguish the various inputs of different architects is frankly a lot to ask of history writers who again really aren't that much concentrating on the architectural specifics anyway--except in a general sense of how the holes might play. Those histories were just into other things to do with the club than just architecture as most club histories are.

But for Mr. Finegan, I feel he did try and delve much deeper into the architecture of the course and its creation by all those involved. I feel very badly for Jim because assuming that date was the date that Crump finished the routing is just an easy thing to do--it does seemingly make sense to make that assumption. God knows that probably hundreds upon hundreds of others who looked closely at that routing map and noticed that date probably assumed the same thing he did--and for reasons that had zero to do with Colt. The map actually says right on it'

"Property of George A. Crump"
      "March 1913"

To asume what Jim did is just such a logical thing to do. There's no real reason Jim didn't just feel that Crump routed the golf course and then set about working with the design of the holes endlessly for the next five years as he is unquestionably known to have done.

But I have no doubt whatsoever that if someone, anyone, had pointed out to him the potential significance of those different colored lines he would've jumped into that analysis with both feet and likely come to a far different conclusion on the routing of the course regarding Colt's contribution. But still today with all that we do seem to know about that now what exactly his contribution was in toto is still not completely clear.

[ian]

Would it help if I approach Toronto (the last course before Pine Valley and Hamilton (the next course after to find out his exact dates of work. There is a fair chance they both still have record of these dates. I'm assuming that exact dates would make a big difference to this debate?

Does anyone have this imfamous red/blue plan. Is there a way I could see it?

IAN

[TEPaul]

Paul Turner, have you come to your senses yet about the truth behind the creation of Pine Valley, or are you still trying to foist that little British accountant look-alike Harry Colt on the history of that great golf couse???

[ian]

Tom,

I have sent you a Colt drawing from that era to look at, I hope it helps you in trying to determine what may be what.

Colt's final visit to Toronto Golf Club was on the 12th of May, 1913. He did not make another visit. That puts his visit to Pine Valley after that date.

I will check with Hamilton to see when his first visit was there, because that freezes the timeline a little more for Pine Valley

Ian

[TEPaul]

Ian:

Thanks for the Colt drawing. Those light blue lines on the drawing you sent me just additionally confirms the light blue lines on the PVGC work are obviously Colt's. Initially, I only deduced that the light blue lines (along with the heavier red lines that're probably Crump's) on the routing map hanging in the PVGC clubhouse were Colt's because Finegan happened to mention the light blue pencil lines of Colt's PVGC hole by hole booklet and one can see from the photo of his #17 hole drawing (from that booklet) in Finegan's PVGC history book has those same light blue pencil lines as does the topo routing map (it's also interesting that on that topo routing map Colt also highlighted important existing contour lines in his light blue pencil).

Pencil or pen lines and their colors seems to be a rather regular key to identify some architect's hand. It's very clear to us that Flynn used a rusty colored pencil when he drew in the field or made general sketches. All these architects probably just had a stationary store they got those materials and probably got used to one color or another!

The real key to separating what Crump and Colt may've done there either separately or together has a lot to do with another copy of that topo map that hangs in Rick Christian's office and is just stick routing lines, many of which on the back nine area are not the way the course is. It's probably fairly logical to assume that's what Crump used starting in March of 1913, particularly since his hand-writing with a note about green placements is on the top of it (that's the topo plan you photographed). It's probably fairly logical to assume that when Colt showed up in May/June 1913 that Crump just broke out another fresh copy of that Topo map that they could work on together during the week or two Colt was there.

Paul Turner did an overlay of the first topo stick routing on the second one they may've worked on together so one can see all the similarities as well as differences between the two routing plans. Since Crump obviously worked on the course before Colt arrived (with the first routing plan?) and they obviously worked on the course simultaneously with the second routing plan when Colt was there it probably always will be almost impossible to know whose actual idea any particular thing was.

I will finally get a look at the Colt booklet in a little while and it should tell a lot. I do know exactly how the bunkering was built in those early days following Colt's departure in 1913 and Crump's work in the ensuing 4+ years and I know exactly how the course was finished following Crump's death so comparing that booklet to what was done won't be hard.

The most interesting thing to me will be if Colt's hole by hole booklet shows any design at all for the greens or if they're just bascially placements on the drawings.

Someday the individual Colt/Crump contributions will probably be better known but the thing I keep stressing is it's pretty obvious that since Crump virtually lived right there and worked on the course every day from both before and well after Colt's departure in 1913 until his own death in Jan 1918 with the crews and particularly his foreman Jim Govan constantly shot-testing and altering and improving things as they went along that Crump's input into that course had to be immense. No one at all ever denied that the final say in every single thing and in every single way on what was done on that golf course from the very beginning until his death was definitely Crump. After-all, as some may not completely realize Crump basically spent the entire last five years of his life right there (PVGC was all he was concerned with in those years of his life) working on that course almost every day and some may also forget---he did own the place!

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

The more and more I read about Pine Valley, the i am convinced that a basic routing was done by Crump and Colt was brought in to check, confirm and tweak the initial ideas of Crump.  I still feel that the weakest part of the routing is where the red lines are that change the original routing.

The other thing that I think about is just because the blue lines were done by Colt it doesn't mean that Crump and Colt were not sat together doing it.  I have done that a number of times with clients.  As I can sketch and draw better than clients I will sketch their ideas for them.

I still feel that Colt had a major input on the routing and that Alison had a major input on reconstruction of some of the greens.

I also agree with you that it is Crumps baby and the details are mainly his but the skeleton (routing) of the course even though might have been an idea of Crump the final check by an architect was Colt.  The routing changes made by Crump are in my opinion the weakest part of the course and again in my opinion (who cares about mine anyway) feel forced when playing the course....thats if I have the correct numbers in my head.  The red lines are around that area are they not aroung 14, 15, 16 or very near there?

Although the 14th is a beautiful hole it just did not feel right when I played it that day, there was something about it, just a feeling that the hole did not fit Pine Valley.  And that is how I felt about 14, 15 and 16.  All of these holes (again in my opinion) I felt could be built anywhere else in the world whereas the rest of the course felt unique and could not be repeated anywhere else.

I hope this does not offend yourself or John and I will delete the post if so...



Brian

[TEPaul]

Brian:

At this point I think I could go right through each hole and come up with a pretty good analysis of what Crump did before Colt arrived and what Colt did when he got there and then what Crump did after Colt left as far as how the course finally turned out.

The real key to this, at this point anyway, and in my opinion, is the overlay Paul Tuner did of the initial routing map that hangs in the maintenance buiding (Crump?) right on top of the routing map that Colt and Crump worked on that hangs in the clubhouse. We all are making certain assumptions about certain things to do with those two topo routing maps, of course, but given the timelines those assumptions do seem reasonable, at this point.

If those assumptions are accurate it appears that Colt probably bailed Crump out big-time on parts of the back nine particularly. One can see on the first topo (if that was Crump's work before Colt arrived) that Crump was sort of all over the place in some of that back nine section.

But as far as how or how much they worked together on that topo routing that hangs in the clubhouse, no one will probably ever really know as there's apparently nothing at all recorded from that week or two they were together.

A few things are clear, though, from cross referencing text with those red and blue lines. One is that Crump dodged a bullet by over-riding Colt's idea for the placement of the 2nd green by his remark "No Good". What Colt proposed for that green placement sure wouldn't have had the effect the present green does--it probably would've changed the nuancy approach to the 3rd green too as Colt's tee was right in the middle of what is now the 2nd green and where he had the green would've really squeezed that wonderful fairway ridge which is now the top of the 4th fairway.

Colt seems to have had the 7th green routed short and left and right into the middle of the 8th hole too about 150 yards off the tee. But I think Colt bailed him out a lot, at least in a basic routing sense, on some of the back nine and I have a feeling #9 particularly, is probably as close to a pue Colt  design, particularly in its exact placement and in its bunkering as any hole out there. It's interesting, though, that Crump very definitely intended to turn #9 into basically a dogleg left but he died and obviously that was never done.

[TEPaul]

Brian:

The routing of #14 is most definitely not Colt. The basic routing of #15 and #16, though, is very likely Colt's. 1-6, minus #5 is definitely Crump's as Tillinghast wrote about and described those holes as they are now before Colt arrived. #7 is somewhat of an enigma but probably had a lot of Tillinghast input, particularly HHA and the last third of that hole that's very different in placement and everything else from Colt. #8 is somewhat of an enigma. I think #9 is really pure Colt throughout which of course brings back into question what the two did together on #8!! Obviously the green placement must have been agreed between them if #9 is really pure Colt. #10 is somewhat of an enigma. Tillinghast appears to have described it as Crumps before and after Colt arrived but others such as Hunter and Thomas seem to attribute that one to Colt. #11 is probably Colt---but that's a hole that it's clear Crump intended to change the green placement of bigtime (and to make it a virtual soft dogleg left!!). #12 and #13 are basically Crump with the last half of #13 probably being Tillinghast input. #17 is basically Crump but it's obvious Colt moved the line of it to the right and placed the green as Crump originally had #17 green just about where #10 green is. #18, according to Tillinghast before Colt arrived, is Crump's.

[ian]

Tom,

This makes a facinating read, and fortunately for me I have had time to study each plan that you refer to at one time or another.

I have sent you another plan that you may or may not have. I look forward to your write up after reviewing the Colt booklet.

I have always felt that the course is Crump, but that Colt should always be listed as a co-designer for his assistance with the routing. It does seem that Tillinghaust should also get some concideration after reading your comments.

I have always wondered how much imput Flynn, Travis, Alison, Frownes and all the others that came to see him had to offer. I assume the archives never gets more specific than we already know.

Ian

[Paul_Turner]

I actually pretty much agree with Tom's analysis, except that, in routing terms:

6 is unclear.  Tillie describes a par 5, before Colt arrived.

8 is probably Colt's, with the tee shifted by Crump (knock on from moving the 7th green).

10 is surely Colt's.

12 close to Colt's plan.

17 is probably Colt's.  It was shifted in the two plans.

I have a stick diagram (lines and circles) which could tell us if his hand is on the earlier plan (not the red and blue one).

The bottom line is that, in terms of routing, the course did not come together until Colt arrived.  

If Crump had listened to Colt regarding the second i.e. shifted the green and built a big triangular,fronting, bunker ala the 8th at St George's Hill, then perhaps is wouldn't have dissolved and been replaced by those plain pots, as the Crump version was

[TEPaul]

Yeah, right Paul, the second hole would've been better shifted over to the left. If you haven't noticed that second green is one of the coolest in existence, and you suggest Colt's would have been better? That's some real Colt advocacy in a vacuum if I've ever seen it!  

Have you seen the note of Crump's on top of that first topo? And what do you think about the greens of PVGC? Do you think Colt designed any of them? What if his hole drawing booklet indicates just green placements and no green designs?

[Paul_Turner]

Yes, I've seen the note.

I don't think there will be any Colt detailed drawings for the greens.  In fact, I've never seen Colt detailed drawings of any greens (there's one in "Colt and Co" but I think it might be Morrison's).  I think he preferred to stake the green out and work from there, on the site.  In the hole drawing book, I think you'll only see comments like "ease ridge, for occasional back hole placement".  No detailed contour stuff.

At Hamilton they have his hole by hole book displayed under galss, as individual holes; it's very similar to the one drawing I've seen of the 17th at PV.  Which would make sense, since it was the same trip.

[TEPaul]

Paul Turner said;

"I actually pretty much agree with Tom's analysis, except that, in routing terms:
6 is unclear.  Tillie describes a par 5, before Colt arrived."

Paul:

Regarding what you say about #6 being unclear because it was described by Tillinghast as a par 5, consider this;

If one carefully correlates what we can see on that first routing map for #5  with not just what Tillinghast writes about the course but when it looks like a pretty accurate “timeline’ of what happened when begins to emerge. Tillinghast describes in April 1913 the first four holes as they are now. He also described the 5th as a short iron to the hillside over a depression and a creek. If we look at that stick route of that hole on the first topo (before Colt arrived) we see a hole that goes almost perpendicular to the present line of play---eg probably from just right of the present tee basically just to the right of the steps down from the present 5th tee and to a green in the hillside just to the left of the intersection where one turns right to go up to the clubhouse on the drive in. That would be a relatively short iron tee shot (that Tillinghast describes in April 1913 for the 5th hole)! From a next tee near that green one would have to play up along the ridge formed by the 6th tee and to the left of the first part of that hole, and that tee shot would correlate to the way Tillinghast described the tee shot on #6—eg ‘……there is much to be gained by a long ball which takes the most dangerous carry’. From there the green site which is the present green site (or slightly father out) would not be reachable or easy to reach in two shots (as Tillinghast described in April 13 before Colt arrived). A less aggressive line for the tee shot Tillinghast described would be more to the left (probably up to the right of the present road) and somewhat away from the inside of the dogleg making the hole a longer. That would be the par 5 6th hole that Tillinghast described which is basically the present 6th hole but from a tee probably 150 yards or so below and well to the left of the present 6th tee.

[TEPaul]

Paul;

To be honest, after reading through Tillinghast's close personal account of the timeline of PVGC (which seems to have been written much later from his earlier contemporaneous articles), the way he describes things in the beginning before Colt arrived, the way he describes Colt's contribution both before Colt arrived, during his visit and after he left(in the section I have titled "April 1913" and then the way he describes Colt and PVGC in the part titled "Dec 1914", combined with that Carr article in 1914 about Colt's contribution and that mysterious $10,000 payment that Baker described years later I really am beginning to sort of smell a rat here with this Colt/Crump connection.

I can tell you right now that either you or Tom MacWood may not be at all aware of the rumor or story that floated around PVGC for decades and probably until a few years ago. When did either or both of you become aware of what you think was or is some effort on the part of PVGC to mininmize or suppress the significance of Colt's part in PVGC?

[Paul_Turner]

You might be right, but on the stick map, there's a hole from that 5th green, up over the ridge towards the 9th green.  Looks like it could be a par 5.

Lets not assume that Colt's hand is definitely not on that first stick diagram.

[TEPaul]

"but on the stick map, there's a hole from that 5th green, up over the ridge towards the 9th green.  Looks like it could be a par 5."

Paul:

I don't know what you mean by that. There's a hole from the present 5th tee across the ridge that #9 green sits on to a green about 40 yards right of #10 green and from there you can see the line from a tee next to that green to a green over near John Ott's house. Those holes could've been a #5 and #6 iteration very early on in Crump's routing attempts. There also seems to be a iteration from the 5th tee down to the other side of the pond from Crump's house! Do you really wonder why Colt probably got so much credit for the fixing of #5? I don't.

You said:

"Lets not assume that Colt's hand is definitely not on that first stick diagram."

I know exactly what you mean and although I am assuming that for now, I'm certainly not going to try to turn that into a conclusion yet. You must admit given all the correborating timeline text of Tillinghast that does seem likely. If you had one of the world's most celebrated architects show up for a week or two in June don't you think you'd at least break out a fresh topo map to do another routing on? I'm quite a Quaker (cheap) but I sure do know I would.

[TEPaul]

Paul, when did either you or Tom MacWood become aware of what you think was or is some effort on the part of PVGC to mininmize or suppress the significance of Colt's part in PVGC?

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