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Thomas Dai

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Who designed the best par3's?
« on: September 10, 2015, 11:56:16 AM »
The Saint-Germain thread and Paul's Harry Colt comment, which I've heard before and go along with, got me pondering the subject of par-3's, specifically which architect has generally designed the best par-3's?


So any thoughts on anyone who designed superior par-3's to Harry Colt and if so who?


Photos of examples of non-HSC designed holes would be nice.


Atb

« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 11:58:19 AM by Thomas Dai »
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Sean_A

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2015, 12:10:36 PM »
Who designed the par 3s for Painswick?  I can't say I have seen a better set.


Ciao
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Thomas Dai

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2015, 12:13:34 PM »
Quote from: Sean_A on September 10, 2015, 12:10:36 PM
Who designed the par 3s for Painswick?  I can't say I have seen a better set.
Ciao


Even the 18th!? :)
Atb
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Sean_A

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2015, 12:21:04 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Dai on September 10, 2015, 12:13:34 PM
Quote from: Sean_A on September 10, 2015, 12:10:36 PM
Who designed the par 3s for Painswick?  I can't say I have seen a better set.
Ciao


Even the 18th!? :)
Atb


In the context of Painswick the 18th is ho hum.  In the context of the general population of 3s its not bad at all.


Ciao
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Thomas Dai

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2015, 01:19:22 PM »
Quote from: Sean_A on September 10, 2015, 12:21:04 PM
Quote from: Thomas Dai on September 10, 2015, 12:13:34 PM
Quote from: Sean_A on September 10, 2015, 12:10:36 PM
Who designed the par 3s for Painswick?  I can't say I have seen a better set.
Ciao
Even the 18th!? :)
Atb
In the context of Painswick the 18th is ho hum.  In the context of the general population of 3s its not bad at all.
Ciao


One aspect of Painswick is the size of the greens. I don't recall playing another 18-hole course where the greens on the par-3's are of such a small, miniscule even, size as those at Painswick, and there are 7 of them and, like the rest of the holes, not one has a sand bunker.


Atb
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 01:23:08 PM by Thomas Dai »
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Paul Gray

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2015, 01:49:30 PM »
I'm not sure any one is going to challenge Mr. Colt on this one.  :)
 
Dye, Doak, Mac or Ross maybe? Just for the sake of the discussion.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 10:26:11 AM by Paul Gray »
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2015, 02:16:31 PM »
Assuming that the par 3's at Burnham & Berrow are Colt, I don't think I've played many better than 5(?) and 9.  Very natural, and a beautiful green benched into the hillside at 9. 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 06:28:07 PM by Bill_McBride »
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Phil McDade

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2015, 03:55:04 PM »
William Langford was known for his par 3s -- they are usually among the standout holes on his courses. I can't say they are better than Colt's, but among American architects, I think Langford's par 3s hold up well among his contemporaries.
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Jon Wiggett

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2015, 04:44:53 PM »
Dr. Mac must be in with a shout. Great set of par threes at Alwoodley and I don't think I have seen a better par three than Gibraltar across the road.

Jon
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David_Tepper

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2015, 05:51:06 PM »
James Braid's par-3's at Brora & Golspie are awfully good.
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Jim Nugent

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2015, 03:31:42 AM »
Where does CBM stand on the list?  He 'designed' par 3s that are among the world's best.  They have been copied in top courses the world over.  Of course the flip side is that he lifted the design principles for those holes from famous courses that already existed. 
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Matthew Mollica

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2015, 06:49:41 AM »
Quote from: Jon Wiggett on September 10, 2015, 04:44:53 PM
Dr. Mac must be in with a shout. Great set of par threes at Alwoodley and I don't think I have seen a better par three than Gibraltar across the road.

Jon


More than in with a shout I'd have thought..


Gibraltar
15 at CPC
16 at CPC
15 KH
5 RMW
16 RMW
12 ANGC
 

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Sean_A

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2015, 08:02:12 PM »
I just played Gibralter today...damn if that hole isn't very similar to Swinley's 4th.  The greens are a bit different with Swinley's moving right and Gib's back to front....but they are virtually the same hole.  I wonder if Colt had a sneak peak at the plan when he visited Dr Mac re Alwoodley.


Ciao


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Frank Giordano

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2015, 12:28:55 PM »
The par 3's at Harbour Town are very good.  Pete Dye, of course.
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Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2015, 02:04:50 PM »
Sean and I had the pleasure of playing Moortown and Alwoodley at the weekend in the company of a touring party of international golf course architects. Gibraltar was clearly the stand-out hole of the two courses, and left the architects drooling.

My playing partner Tim Liddy went so far as to say that this hole changed golf course architecture forever.

Given Dr Mac's other iconic par 3's, he must be in with a shout of being the short hole King.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 02:38:49 PM by Duncan Cheslett »
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Mark Pritchett

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2015, 02:11:53 PM »
Flynn seems like a good choice, though my sample size is limited. 
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Thomas Dai

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2015, 12:38:48 PM »
Gibraltar or Calamity Corner.....and why?
Atb
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2015, 12:50:05 PM »
Quote from: Duncan Cheslett on September 14, 2015, 02:04:50 PM
Sean and I had the pleasure of playing Moortown and Alwoodley at the weekend in the company of a touring party of international golf course architects. Gibraltar was clearly the stand-out hole of the two courses, and left the architects drooling.

My playing partner Tim Liddy went so far as to say that this hole changed golf course architecture forever.

Given Dr Mac's other iconic par 3's, he must be in with a shout of being the short hole King.


Duncan, is there much similarity between Gibraltar and the 11th at Alwoodley?  I haven't played Moortown but have read about Gibraltar and it sounds somewhat like 11 which I loved. 
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Sean_A

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2015, 01:53:21 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Dai on September 15, 2015, 12:38:48 PM
Gibraltar or Calamity Corner.....and why?
Atb


Calamity Corner for sure.  There are many takes on the Redan and ALwoodley's isn't that special because of the number of trees and rough crowding the space. If a job is worth doing its worth doing beautifully. 


Ciao
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Jon Wiggett

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2015, 03:58:22 PM »
Quote from: Sean_A on September 15, 2015, 01:53:21 PM
Quote from: Thomas Dai on September 15, 2015, 12:38:48 PM
Gibraltar or Calamity Corner.....and why?
Atb


Calamity Corner for sure.  There are many takes on the Redan and ALwoodley's isn't that special because of the number of trees and rough crowding the space. If a job is worth doing its worth doing beautifully. 


Ciao

Is the 11th at Alwoodley a Redan? Putting surface is sloping towards the player not away. I fully agree on the trees and rough though that is not how it used to be. The original green is in those trees up to the right.

Jon
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2015, 11:43:50 PM »
Quote from: Paul Gray on September 10, 2015, 01:49:30 PM
I'm not sure any one is going to challenge Mr. Colt on this one.  :)
 
Dye, Doak, Mac or Ross maybe? Just for the sake of the discussion.


It's certainly NOT me.  I've built some good ones -- every decent architect has -- but par-4 holes are my #1 priority.


Flynn and MacKenzie are reasonable challengers to Colt, but I am surprised that no one has suggested A.W. Tillinghast.  [Phil Young must be offline today.]  Tillinghast always said that he looked for good sites for the par-3's first and the rest of the routing revolved around them ... and just off the top of my head, he built the 10th at Winged Foot West and the 7th at SFGC and the 2nd at Somerset Hills, three I'd rank as personal favorites.


Stanley Thompson should be in the discussion, too.  Some don't like his insistence on including a 230-yard hole in the mix -- Donald Ross gets the same complaint in New England -- but Jasper alone has three great short holes.


I'm also surprised Pat Mucci didn't suggest C.B. Macdonald or Seth Raynor, who just took their four classic par-3's and built them over and over again.  :)


P.S.  Gibraltar is a great hole.  The tilt of the green is certainly somewhat different than the Redan, but there was enough similarity between them that Dr. MacKenzie went out of his way in THE SPIRIT OF ST. ANDREWS to mention that he had never seen North Berwick at the time he built Gibraltar.  . 
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Carl Rogers

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2015, 07:44:23 AM »
Tom,  At Riverfront, I would have thought the 4th and 13th (both one shotters, see RGD website best holes) had been the lynchpins in the routing. 
Similarly, the true 3 shotter, the14th, I would have thought to be another must have hole in the routing process.  (There are 2 half par holes, par 5's and the 8th hole which is an interesting par 5 whose length is a little longer than a the half par hole).
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Jimmy Muratt

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2015, 08:22:11 AM »
Perry Maxwell hasn't been mentioned and his par 3s are consistently good.  One can simply look at Old Town and Prairie Dunes for some great examples.

I agree that the template holes from Macdonald and Raynor are excellent and fit in to just about any site, look at the varied topography that they've been laid upon.  Perhaps that's the true genius, designing 4 templates that excel on any land.
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Ed Brzezowski

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Re: Who designed the best par3's?
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2015, 08:52:55 AM »
Quote from: Mark Pritchett on September 14, 2015, 02:11:53 PM
Flynn seems like a good choice, though my sample size is limited.

Fully agree, just look at Rolling Green and Mannys as an example.
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