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Sven Nilsen

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Lido - A Redux
« on: February 06, 2015, 06:23:11 PM »
With the recent discussion of the possibilities for the 4th course at Streamsong, I thought it might make sense to revisit the original.

First up, a July 1915 Golf Illustrated article penned by C. B. Macdonald discussing the course:











Here's the a full image of the model of the course:



And an old thread with some interesting commentary on this article:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35406.0.html

Interesting to note that in the thread George Bahto mistakenly posted the plan above in reverse, and noted that it was for a west coast project.  One has to wonder if he was thinking about how the course would work on the property at Bandon, possibly as an alternative to how Old Macdonald turned out.
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2015, 06:26:02 PM »
Next, an Aug. 1915 Golf Illustrated article written by Peter Lees (who had been hired away by CBM to develop the course) discussing the green keeping issues they were facing in this endeavor.



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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2015, 06:27:47 PM »
Mackenzie's Country Life prize winning hole that was incorporated into the design:

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2015, 06:29:46 PM »
An image of the 8th hole (the "Biarritz") taken from the March 1933 edition of Golf Illustrated.

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2015, 06:31:04 PM »
George Bahto's drawing of the "Channel Hole."

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2015, 06:38:20 PM »
Another article from Peter Lees (Sept. 1914 Golf Illustrated) discussing NGLA and the plans for Lido.



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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2015, 06:44:57 PM »
An early image of the course, not sure what hole this was (guessing the Punchbowl).

« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 07:28:09 PM by Sven Nilsen »
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2015, 06:45:44 PM »
I love the quote in the first article where Macdonald speaks of his "heed of the criticisms of those entitled to criticize."  :)  I expect it was a short list!
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2015, 06:54:37 PM »
A plan of the course with the hole numbers and yardages noted (in reverse of the layout above).

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2015, 07:04:14 PM »
So while the Nazi's saved Paris and many of the great art works of all time I'm supposed to believe a bunch of rich Americans gave up the greatest golf course ever built for the war effort. It makes no sense given we were not under attack on the east coast and all the other locales that could serve as good a purpose.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2015, 07:11:19 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on February 06, 2015, 07:04:14 PM
So while the Nazi's saved Paris and many of the great art works of all time I'm supposed to believe a bunch of rich Americans gave up the greatest golf course ever built for the war effort. It makes no sense given we were not under attack on the east coast and all the other locales that could serve as good a purpose.

Huh?  My understanding is that the club went bankrupt in the Depression and the receivers sold off some of the land for housing afterward, which is as patriotic and American as it gets.  :)
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2015, 07:20:07 PM »
John:

If your issue is with the quality of the course, this is the company that Bernard Darwin put it in (Dec. 1922 Golfers Magazine):



If your comment is more directed at the financial strength of its owners, I suggest you revisit just how great an effect the Great Depression had on the involved parties.

Sven
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2015, 07:23:00 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on February 06, 2015, 07:11:19 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on February 06, 2015, 07:04:14 PM
So while the Nazi's saved Paris and many of the great art works of all time I'm supposed to believe a bunch of rich Americans gave up the greatest golf course ever built for the war effort. It makes no sense given we were not under attack on the east coast and all the other locales that could serve as good a purpose.

Huh?  My understanding is that the club went bankrupt in the Depression and the receivers sold off some of the land for housing afterward, which is as patriotic and American as it gets.  :)

That version doesn't make sense either. The depression was no more than a money grab for the exact type of person that would want to play at the greatest course ever built. How else can you explain Pebble and Cypress remaining intact?  If anything these drawings look like Valhalla with better views. Any true lover of golf architecture will pray this abomination never gets rebuilt more than 50 miles from Disney World.
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2015, 07:27:09 PM »
The scorecard of the course, taken from Golf Architecture in America.

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Rees Milikin

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2015, 07:29:02 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on February 06, 2015, 07:23:00 PM
Quote from: Tom_Doak on February 06, 2015, 07:11:19 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on February 06, 2015, 07:04:14 PM
So while the Nazi's saved Paris and many of the great art works of all time I'm supposed to believe a bunch of rich Americans gave up the greatest golf course ever built for the war effort. It makes no sense given we were not under attack on the east coast and all the other locales that could serve as good a purpose.

Huh?  My understanding is that the club went bankrupt in the Depression and the receivers sold off some of the land for housing afterward, which is as patriotic and American as it gets.  :)

That version doesn't make sense either. The depression was no more than a money grab for the exact type of person that would want to play at the greatest course ever built. How else can you explain Pebble and Cypress remaining intact?  If anything these drawings look like Valhalla with better views. Any true lover of golf architecture will pray this abomination never gets rebuilt more than 50 miles from Disney World.

Thankfully it will be 70 miles.
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John Kavanaugh

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2015, 07:33:03 PM »
That drawing looks like every submission ever entered by a GCA favorite in an armchair architect contest.
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ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2015, 07:35:40 PM »
"Lido, you know, is something like the New England 'boiled dinner,' which, if it doesn't kill you young, will make you a mighty husky citizen, fit to digest anything that comes your way. So it is with Lido. Once you have become inured to those ferocious Long Beach carries, and that all-engulfing rough, the iron has entered your soul and you are capable of tackling any golf course that the genius of Charley Macdonald, a Seth Raynor or a Walter Travis can conceive."

George Trevor
Brooklyn Daily Eagle
October 20, 1922

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John Kavanaugh

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2015, 07:45:04 PM »
Who wouldn't think this was one of the best movies EVER. Even as a very masculine male I find this film very entertaining. It represents a time when films could be based completely on dancing and music without the modern day clichés. This film represents a time when love could blossom in the summer, and also the unending (yet creative) story of a daughter who grows to be a woman … through dance.

Andy (2004)
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2015, 07:53:35 PM »
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 07:59:17 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2015, 07:58:32 PM »
Jim:

The Punchbowl features reminds me very much of the Punchbowl at your place. I would really like to see a historical photo of the Punchbowl at Muirfield since that is the one Macdonald was trying to copy, at least according to George Bahto.

Anthony

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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2015, 08:00:23 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on February 06, 2015, 07:45:04 PM
Who wouldn't think this was one of the best movies EVER. Even as a very masculine male I find this film very entertaining. It represents a time when films could be based completely on dancing and music without the modern day clichés. This film represents a time when love could blossom in the summer, and also the unending (yet creative) story of a daughter who grows to be a woman … through dance.

Andy (2004)

John:

Do me a favor and refrain from littering on my threads, and I'll do the same for yours.

Thanks,

Sven
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2015, 08:08:26 PM »
Quote from: Anthony Pioppi on February 06, 2015, 07:58:32 PM
Jim:

The Punchbowl features reminds me very much of the Punchbowl at your place. I would really like to see a historical photo of the Punchbowl at Muirfield since that is the one Macdonald was trying to copy, at least according to George Bahto.

Anthony



CBM had some good owners for Lido - George wrote that they told him to design what he wanted and they'd in-fill the bog to meet his plan.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 08:52:30 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bill Brightly

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2015, 08:22:40 PM »
Thanks for orgnizing and posting all of this, Sven. If Lido-Streamsong is built, I think it will be fascinating to observe and I can't wait to play it!
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John Kavanaugh

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2015, 08:29:07 PM »
Sven,

Lido was built and failed. It is important to know why before it is built again. There are very few great works of architecture or art that have ever been destroyed on peacetime soil. I'm not buying the hype. Look, if Bahto was still around and could make a buck I would stay quiet. I want new courses built today to be built by architects, not bloggers, critics and historians. In the few years I have left to golf there may be no more than 10 important courses built. Please forgive me if I care that they be more than some rehash of a failed effort.
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2015, 08:32:47 PM »
Quote from: Bill Brightly on February 06, 2015, 08:22:40 PM
Thanks for orgnizing and posting all of this, Sven. If Lido-Streamsong is built, I think it will be fascinating to observe and I can't wait to play it!

Bill:

Lido was an interesting case for CBM and Raynor, as it was just about the only course they built where the argument that they incorporated natural features can't be raised.

I'm sure anyone here who espouses the ideals of naturalism cringes a bit at the idea of regrading an entire piece of property.  That being said, the group of golf holes on that scorecard would be fascinating to play, especially as they include both the Channel Hole and Mackenzie's prize winner.

Sven
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross
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