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Ally Mcintosh

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Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« on: January 16, 2015, 05:00:30 AM »
Ed Tilley's inclusion of the 8th at Rees Jones's Oxfordshire inspired this thread...

I've a huge fondness for the short par-4 tenth at Lough Erne... Not only is this one scenically stunning but it is very strategic in asking you how brave you wish to be.

It only plays about 300 yards from the very back and the fairway cants strongly from left to right towards the water. At about 220 to 260 yards, there is a very attractive grass dyke / ha-ha placed almost parallel to the line of play. This holds up the fairway to the left on a lesser slope. You can hit safely down the fairway and hold this side of the fairway. Anything right of the dyke falls steeply and cants towards the green which is on a tiny peninsula jutting out of the water. A full blooded drive down the right feeds towards this but there is danger all around. This green site is so small however that even the 80 yard pitch from the left lay-up zone is a real heart-in-mouth moment coming from a downhill lie. It really is a hole where I think both options have merit and both are fraught with danger...

I've nicked this photo from somewhere so apologies to the owner (probably the golf club itself)... Taken from the left side of the fairway with the tee-shot to the right... The dyke / haha is slightly hidden from here because of the fill on the near side:


Tom Kelly

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2015, 06:09:49 AM »
I would add the 17th at The Oxfordshire to Ed's suggestion of the 8th, you can't help but smile when standing on the fairway with the option of going for the green across the expanse of water. Abit of a tough slog for some, but I loved it.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2015, 06:26:48 AM »
I struggled to come up with many modern courses I have played with lots of water.  I did, however, really like the 7th at Swinkelsche, which features a fairway at an angle to the tee and a drive over water to a heavily bunkered fairway, then water down the right side of the remainder of the hole.  The 9th at Close House Colt is a long par 3 over water to a smallish green, with a bail out area right from where par is very tricky and a wall not far over the back.  This is a hole you really want a bit of a breeze against to give a better chance of holding the firm green.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2015, 06:37:54 AM »
I'm trying to think of many modern era GB courses that don't make use of ponds/lakes etc. Storage areas for (not necessarily needed) irrigations systems or "we must have because we see them on TV and they look good in publicity photographs"?
Atb

Paul Gray

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2015, 06:53:27 AM »
I'm trying to think of many modern era GB courses that don't make use of ponds/lakes etc. Storage areas for (not necessarily needed) irrigations systems or "we must have because we see them on TV and they look good in publicity photographs"?
Atb

If you can think of any of real quality built between, say, 1985 and 1995, I'll be hugely impressed.  ;D

Actually, "real quality" is a stretch but Pine Ridge in Surrey really is quite good. I used to work for the owners, Crown Golf, who have absolutely no idea what they have there.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Jonathan Davison

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2015, 07:06:25 AM »
Ally,
Interesting about that green, I think it was built about 3 or four times. They kept loading the green out with fill and when they returned in the morning it had sunk !

What about the 18 at Loch Lomond, certainly in play for a hook from the tee.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2015, 08:05:55 AM »
Ally's hole would look very much at home on the Robert Trent Jones Trail in Alabama, USA!   In fact there's a long par 3 that's a virtual doppelgänger at Grand National in Auburn-Opelika. 

Chris DeNigris

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2015, 09:01:13 AM »
I'm gonna go with the 18th at Royal New Kent- mostly because it's universally loved here.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2015, 10:26:33 AM »
I'll probably get thrown off here for a month but 9, 10 and 18 at THE BELFRY are excellent holes.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2015, 10:51:46 AM »
Ally, that photo looks a lot like the approach to the 8th at Longaberger, which is a hole I rather like outside of Columbus, Ohio.



For me, you could pick practically any hole along the river at Blackwolf Run. 14 at Meadow Valleys is my favorite, but some would probably say it doesn't have "loads" of water. In fact, I suspect the real spirit of this thread is to pick a hole with big, shimmering ponds/lakes - ideally artificial.

If that's the case, I've gotta say that I really like 7 at Valhalla, even if the left fairway doesn't make much sense from the tees most prudent for my pathetic game.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jay Flemma

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2015, 10:58:10 AM »
How about 18 at Sawgrass? Or maybe 16 at Oakland Hills?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Carl Nichols

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2015, 11:26:07 AM »


For me, you could pick practically any hole along the river at Blackwolf Run. 14 at Meadow Valleys is my favorite, but some would probably say it doesn't have "loads" of water. In fact, I suspect the real spirit of this thread is to pick a hole with big, shimmering ponds/lakes - ideally artificial.


Ditto the Ocean Course at Kiawah.

jeffwarne

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2015, 11:32:31 AM »
18 at Sebonack
or the walk to 16 at Friar's
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2015, 12:49:51 PM »
Indeed, the spirit of the thread is to pick one hole on a course that we don't usually talk about (hence the modern and hence the water, thus ruling out almost all courses by the usual names) and explaining why you like it or think it is special.

It gets awful boring concentrating on the same type of golf course all the time after all...

If the answer is any hole at Kiawah Island, then either the course should be ranked number 1 in the world or the holes aren't really worthy of being singled out on this thread.

Josh Tarble

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2015, 02:56:56 PM »
This may get me kicked off the site  :) but the 5th at Whistling Straits - Straits Course.  It is totally out of place with the rest of the course, but the design of the hole is solid.  Off the tee it dares you to carry the water to a narrow fairway - playing out to the left there is plenty of room.  Then dares you to go at the hole again with your second.  

I won't argue that it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb but it's an excellent hole on its own and maybe one of Dye's better par 5s.



Thanks to Joe Bausch for the photo
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48480.225.html

Jason Topp

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2015, 03:14:50 PM »
The 3rd at the Classic at Maddens.  It is a short par four dogleg right cape hole with the green jutting out into the water.  It is theoretically drivable but the water surrounding the green makes such a shot unreasonable.  More likely, the player chooses between leaving himself 100 yards or a half wedge.

What makes the hole is that the back portion of the green slopes away from the player hitting a pitch shot.  This slope creates incentive to be more agressive off the tee and creates a question on the pitch - are you going to try and get it close or be content with the middle of the green.

You can view the hole from above on this photo tour:

http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/classicmaddens/aerial.htm#
 

Thomas Dai

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2015, 03:38:13 PM »
I rather like central hazards on holes, eg bunkers akin to 2nd and 6th at Carnoustie, 16th at TOC etc, so I'm not adverse to an occasional water feature like this, totally manmade that it may be - the 18th hole on the Earth course in Dubai where they play the end of season European Tour event. Lots of options along the whole length of the hole.



I think there's a course on the US PGA tour where the 18th hole is pretty similar. Can't think of the courses name but I believe McIlroy/Fowler had a play-off on it a year or so ago.

atb

Jon McSweeny

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2015, 03:40:06 PM »
I'm not sure it's my favorite, but the seventh at Diamond Valley in Hemet, CA is a pretty good water hole IMO.

http://www.diamondvalleygolf.net/course.php

Short hole with one of the easier tee shots on the course (though it does play moderately uphill.) It features a sharp, two-tiered green that would work on just about any par four of moderate length. When the pin is front and near the water, the lake can swallow up lots of golf balls. However, the hole has a lot of room to the right side of the lake so there is no need to play over water and there is plenty of room behind the hole with a healthy bank that allows players to just bomb it long and take the water (mostly) out of play.

I'm a huge fan of the course generally, but I really enjoy that hole. Lots of fun, and challenge, on a hole that is less than 350 yards.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 03:42:37 PM by Jon McSweeny »

David_Tepper

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2015, 03:43:50 PM »
I cannot say if it is my favorite water hole, but the 18th hole at Golf National outside of Paris (site of the French Open and a future Ryder Cup site) sure has loads of water in play on every shot.    

David Stamm

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2015, 03:56:11 PM »
5 and 9 at PGA West Stadium. 17 Pelican Hill North. Can't really think of many other modern courses with water that I like. Maybe 12 at Spyglass?

"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

JR Potts

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2015, 04:12:41 PM »
This may get me kicked off the site  :) but the 5th at Whistling Straits - Straits Course.  It is totally out of place with the rest of the course, but the design of the hole is solid.  Off the tee it dares you to carry the water to a narrow fairway - playing out to the left there is plenty of room.  Then dares you to go at the hole again with your second.  

I won't argue that it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb but it's an excellent hole on its own and maybe one of Dye's better par 5s.



Thanks to Joe Bausch for the photo
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48480.225.html


I vote to throw him off the site.  :)

Howard Riefs

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2015, 04:28:24 PM »
This may get me kicked off the site  :) but the 5th at Whistling Straits - Straits Course.  It is totally out of place with the rest of the course, but the design of the hole is solid.  Off the tee it dares you to carry the water to a narrow fairway - playing out to the left there is plenty of room.  Then dares you to go at the hole again with your second.  

I won't argue that it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb but it's an excellent hole on its own and maybe one of Dye's better par 5s.



Thanks to Joe Bausch for the photo
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48480.225.html


I vote to throw him off the site.  :)

Second.

All in favor...
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Connor Dougherty

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2015, 08:20:48 PM »
Josh,
I'm somewhat in agreement with you, although I think the dogleg is too sharp, which gives the hole more of a funky feeling.

I made an argument on here in a previous thread a few years ago that the water hazard guarding the left side may be the most intriguing artificial water hazard I've ever seen, solely for the reason that a recovery shot was still possible with the very shallow transition from the bunker to the pond.

I had a lot of people calling for my head too. I think the thread was a bit misunderstood, as I was not arguing the merits of the hole, solely whether that hazard would be better in the place of other water hazards in the US. The biggest knock on water is that it is the ultimate penalty, but if much of that "ultimate penalty" was removed, and recovery was possible, how does that change the characteristics of artificial water hazards?
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Chris Pearson

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2015, 10:46:51 PM »
The 11th hole—Teeth o' the Wind—at Roy Kizer in Austin is one of the most formidable water holes one is ever likely to play.

Playing 464 yards from the tips and nearly always directly into prevailing winds, this cape style par 4 forces the player into two risk-reward decisions whether played as a two or three shotter. Unlike the 18th at Sawgrass, the water isn't an overt bastard from tee to green, but it does heavily influence strategy and especially risk assessment on both the drive and approach or lay up.



From the tee, the player is invited to challenge the waste bunker that separates the fairway from the water on the left. Only a well-struck draw (for righties) is likely to find this fairway, and only the longest hitters will be able to carry the last half of the waste bunker and face a second shot of around 200 yards or less.

Anything right is a very unappealing proposition not only because it lengthens the hole, but also because it brings into play the Bermuda rough-covered mounding that frames the right side all the way up to the green complex. With probable hook lies and water left, anything right off the tee turns this hole into a de facto three shotter...or a miraculous two shotter, considering the run-up possibilities from the right side of the green.

After a courageous and successful drive, the player still has a lot of work to do, as any shot at the pin requires a carry over an inlet of water on the left that threatens to within 25 yards of the green. If that weren't enough, a fronting bunker on the left side awaits valiant attempts (typically from 175–225 yards away) that get rejected by the prevailing winds.

To top it off, the green complex is situated at a sharp dogleg left from the fairway, and this results in a sublime "tucked away" effect that further protects the hole, strengthens the cape feel, and really makes this hard-to-reach green memorable.

The bottom line? Having a go at this all-world par 4 requires not one but TWO excellent shots of the risk-reward, carry over water, heart-in-throat-with-anticipation variety. A second shot that finds this green is one the player will surely remember long after his round is done.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 10:56:28 PM by Chris Pearson »

Paul Gray

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Re: Favourite modern hole with loads of water
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2015, 04:26:39 AM »
I rather like central hazards on holes, eg bunkers akin to 2nd and 6th at Carnoustie, 16th at TOC etc, so I'm not adverse to an occasional water feature like this, totally manmade that it may be - the 18th hole on the Earth course in Dubai where they play the end of season European Tour event. Lots of options along the whole length of the hole.



I think there's a course on the US PGA tour where the 18th hole is pretty similar. Can't think of the courses name but I believe McIlroy/Fowler had a play-off on it a year or so ago.

atb

Damn you, Thomas. I was about to post this!

Clearly we have similar tastes.  ;D
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

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