[Jon Cavalier]

I am more surprised at the exclusion of Wannamoisett than Eastward Ho especially as it relates to resistance to scoring. The outward 9 at Wannamoisett is very difficult.

I happen to have played Eastward Ho and Wannamoisett on the same perfect day this past fall. Couldn't agree with you more on the resistance to scoring at Wannamoisett - that course flat out ate me up. Eastward Ho was less challenging but more fun (at least for me).  In my humble opinion, both of these courses should be entrenched in any top 100 list. They're entirely different courses, but they are both true gems.

[J_ Crisham]

I am more surprised at the exclusion of Wannamoisett than Eastward Ho especially as it relates to resistance to scoring. The outward 9 at Wannamoisett is very difficult.

I happen to have played Eastward Ho and Wannamoisett on the same perfect day this past fall. Couldn't agree with you more on the resistance to scoring at Wannamoisett - that course flat out ate me up. Eastward Ho was less challenging but more fun (at least for me).  In my humble opinion, both of these courses should be entrenched in any top 100 list. They're entirely different courses, but they are both true gems.

I played them after a day at Fishers Island and struggled to pick a favorite out of the 3 - they should be firmly top 25 US on any list.

[Joel_Stewart]

As a panelist I'm happy Shoreacres made it back to the top 100.  With that said, Shoreacres has a number of great holes particularly in the middle of the round.  It also has some marginal holes including the first 3 and ends with a flat bland 18th hole.  

Personally I think there is some progress in this years list.  Its far from perfect and obviously the Fazio influence continues to prevail. Yale and Pasatiempo continue to astound me but they have several factors which hurt themselves.

Ballyneal, Los Angeles CC, The Country Club, Somerset Hills and Winged Foot (East)  had positive moves up mainly due to some nice restoration work.

Classics like Olympic Club,  Medinah and Baltusrol with questionable renovation work continue to fall.

Joel,  As a panelist for GD do you have a spin on the omission of The Cal Club? One could easily argue it to be the best in SF. Other missing headscratchers are Eastward Ho and Wannamoisette.

Interesting you should ask since I just finished an email to people at Cal Club with a possible explanation.

Cal Club moved up from 147 to 136.  Its total score was 59.7139.  Shoreacres at #99 total score was 60.7791 so you can see the difference between 147 and 99 is a scant 1.06 points.  The voting at that level is very close and little things can make a difference.

[Tim Gavrich]

Most interesting thing about the new list to me was that 29 of the top 100 courses' listed yardages sit below 7,000 yards. Not only that, but 9 of the top 20 are of that sort.

3   CYPRESS POINT                 6,524
5   MERION                         6,886
7   PEBBLE BEACH                 6,828
8   NATL GOLF LINKS         6,935
10   FISHERS ISLAND         6,566
12   SEMINOLE                         6,836
13   CRYSTAL DOWNS         6,518
14   CHICAGO GC                 6,846
18   PACIFIC DUNES                 6,633
23   FRIAR'S HEAD                 6,846
25   PRAIRIE DUNES                 6,853
35   SAN FRANCISCO GC         6,828
37   BANDON DUNES                 6,732
48   SPYGLASS HILL                 6,960
49   GARDEN CITY GC         6,911
52   CAMARGO                         6,659
55   OLD MACDONALD         6,978
57   INTERLACHEN                 6,967
59   WINGED FOOT - EAST      6,792
64   YEAMANS HALL                 6,808
67   MONTEREY PENINSULA    6,873
73   SOMERSET HILLS        6,756
74   BANDON TRAILS                6,759
79   OLD SANDWICH                6,908
83   VALLEY CLUB                6,744
84   KITTANSETT CLUB        6,811
85   FLINT HILLS NATIONAL   6,906
98   MAIDSTONE CLUB           6,650
99   SHOREACRES                  6,521

[Ian Mackenzie]

As a panelist I'm happy Shoreacres made it back to the top 100.  With that said, Shoreacres has a number of great holes particularly in the middle of the round.  It also has some marginal holes including the first 3 and ends with a flat bland 18th hole.  

Joel-

Having played Shoreacres dozens of times, I do not fully agree with your assessment of holes 1-3. OK, maybe the first; but that sure qualifies as a "gentle hand shake" opening hole.

#2 at SA is an incredible hole. While it is a short par 4, it offers so many possibilities as well as so many paths to a big number. Much like the 4th and 11th holes, the 2nd has trouble just off the fairway with a small creek, a 10' drop-off and the chance to lose your ball in the gunk.  Newly placed right-side FW bunkers make the tee shot more crucial. A green that slopes from back to front and right to left is well-bunkered and has danger at left and long. Go over the green and you will fight for your par or bogie.

#3 has been discussed at length and, at just 309 yards, is a great risk/reward hole with bunkers at around 160 and 240 yards and a green with at least 5 feet of elevation change from back to front. When the pin is up top, par is a good score.

Try playing SA from the new tips today. The par 4s are stiff and I was hitting 3-4 irons into greens all day. (Make that 21 and 24 degree hybrids...;-)

Cheers,
Ian

[Benjamin Litman]

 
Personally I think there is some progress in this years list.  Its far from perfect and obviously the Fazio influence continues to prevail. Yale and Pasatiempo continue to astound me but they have several factors which hurt themselves.

Thanks for the insight, Joel.

What, in your and the other raters' opinion (to the extent you know), are the factors that hurt Yale?

[J_ Crisham]

As a panelist I'm happy Shoreacres made it back to the top 100.  With that said, Shoreacres has a number of great holes particularly in the middle of the round.  It also has some marginal holes including the first 3 and ends with a flat bland 18th hole.  

Joel-

Having played Shoreacres dozens of times, I do not fully agree with your assessment of holes 1-3. OK, maybe the first; but that sure qualifies as a "gentle hand shake" opening hole.

#2 at SA is an incredible hole. While it is a short par 4, it offers so many possibilities as well as so many paths to a big number. Much like the 4th and 11th holes, the 2nd has trouble just off the fairway with a small creek, a 10' drop-off and the chance to lose your ball in the gunk.  Newly placed right-side FW bunkers make the tee shot more crucial. A green that slopes from back to front and right to left is well-bunkered and has danger at left and long. Go over the green and you will fight for your par or bogie.

#3 has been discussed at length and, at just 309 yards, is a great risk/reward hole with bunkers at around 160 and 240 yards and a green with at least 5 feet of elevation change from back to front. When the pin is up top, par is a good score.

Try playing SA from the new tips today. The par 4s are stiff and I was hitting 3-4 irons into greens all day. (Make that 21 and 24 degree hybrids...;-)

Cheers,
Ian

Ian,   +1   I find #2 at SA to be one of my favorite par 4's in Chicago. A back left pin to a firm green will test the best short iron player. Might be the second best par 4 on the front nine IMO.

[K Rafkin]

Very happy for Shoreacres!  Lots of interesting stuff going on there.

[Ken Fry]

" ......, extensive rebunkering and tree planting by Tom Fazio."


This is a "highlight" of the work Fazio has done???  Most courses are understanding the positive results from tree removal and GD just rewarded ANGC for adding trees?

Ken

[Jason Thurman]

Ken, I'm not sure that they really rewrite those descriptions often. The Pete Dye GC blurb still mentions the black cinder bunkers on hole 6, which I don't think have been there in years.

I do think the reference to "architecture purists" who don't like waterfalls is a direct shot fired at the GCA discussion group.

[Howard Riefs]

But can anyone tell me how Myopia Hunt Club doesn't make a list of the best 200 golf courses in this country? I'm truly baffled. The only ranking criteria I could think of that would ding Myopia is resistance to scoring, but with the upward movement by those Raynor courses (and places like Eastward Ho popping up in the top 200), it can't be that alone. Is it due to a shortage of panelists having played it? Would love to hear some thoughts on this - while we can all debate the marginal snubs and head scratchers, it's hard for me to believe that there's anyone out there that would rate 200 courses ahead of Myopia.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59738.0.html

Likely because Myopia didn't receive the minimum number of ballots (needs 45 evaluations over the past eight years to be eligible ... The minimum ballots for 100 Greatest Public is 25.) Get more ballots and it jumps into the list like Camargo and Yeamans this year.

[Andy Troeger]

A few things:

Some courses (most likely including Myopia Hunt) don't have the ballots to be considered for the top 100 (or 200). Camargo and Yeaman's had the scores before, but not enough ballots for consideration.

I'm pleased that coverage did improve on the second 100 list, and in general there do not seem to be nearly as many courses that could have made the top 200 but needed more ballots.

Yale and Cal Club are much higher on my personal list than any of the GD lists. Eastward Ho too. 

Shoreacres probably has a large percentage of old ballots (pre-renovation) in the system. In most cases, it takes a lot more than two years to really see changes in ratings due to recent work. I've only played it once, maybe 7-8 years ago, and had to start on #10. It doesn't really play as well that way because I played the best holes first and then the rest of the course, while still good, doesn't keep up with that one stretch of greatness.

There's no PR bit to the changing #1's. One thing I really like with GD is that they let the numbers win out. They even have the results audited before publication.

[Brett Wiesley]

I was surprised as well that Cal Club didn't jump into the top 100, and Black Rock stayed in!  As with the comments about not receiving enough ballots this is exactly what happened to Old Town Club.  Other than the jump of Raynors (all very private and never seeking raters), It was interesting to see almost all the clubs that hosted major events move up:  Merion, NGLA, Pinehurst, etc.  Where is Mid Pines as well, not even in the top 100 public or top 200 - even after Kyle's great restoration.

[Ken Fry]

Ken, I'm not sure that they really rewrite those descriptions often. The Pete Dye GC blurb still mentions the black cinder bunkers on hole 6, which I don't think have been there in years.

I do think the reference to "architecture purists" who don't like waterfalls is a direct shot fired at the GCA discussion group.

Jason,

Many golfers take the Golf Digest list as the criteria for what makes a great course.  The worst thing done at Augusta has been the addition of trees.  Why promote adding trees as a good way to "improve" a course?  How many classic age courses have been choked and compromised by years of tree addition instead of responsible tree removal?

Besides, forget waterfalls.  I love the multi stream, pulsating pond fountain with lights.

Ken

[Jon Cavalier]

Howard and Andy:

Good stuff. Thanks for the answer on Myopia. Makes sense, although it's still somewhat surprising that less than 45 panelists have seen Myopia over the past 8 years.

Shoreacres probably has a large percentage of old ballots (pre-renovation) in the system. In most cases, it takes a lot more than two years to really see changes in ratings due to recent work. I've only played it once, maybe 7-8 years ago, and had to start on #10. It doesn't really play as well that way because I played the best holes first and then the rest of the course, while still good, doesn't keep up with that one stretch of greatness.

I've always assumed that this is the reason that while Sleepy Hollow continues to move up the top 200 every time a new list is released, is it remains outside the top 100 (currently at a still way-low 122, up from 145).

[Andy Troeger]

I really wish Old Town had gotten enough ballots, man is that place good too. Sleepy Hollow is going in the right direction, and is another that I would include.

At the end of the day, making the top 100 is really difficult. And the difference between the ones that make it and the ones that barely miss is very small from a statistical perspective.

Jon,
I don't think Myopia is particularly interested in hosting raters. I would have loved to have seen it last summer, but didn't have a way to make it happen. There are a lot of panelists, but most of them are not necessarily national travelers.

[Jon Cavalier]

I really wish Old Town had gotten enough ballots, man is that place good too. Sleepy Hollow is going in the right direction, and is another that I would include.

So very, very true.

And thanks again for the info on the ratings. Very helpful.

[Tyler Kearns]

I am not a GD rater (or for anyone else, for that matter), but as far as Camargo making the jump onto the list, I recall reading somewhere that its prior omission from the national list was because it did not have enough ratings to make it onto that list.  That is the reason it was never there before, not because the value of Raynor's work was underappreciated.  (It was previously rated quite high on GD's best-in-state list, which does not require as many ratings).

It remains the same amazing course, every time I drive by the entrance wistfully.  

Tom,

Camargo was on the GD list in 2005-06 & 2007-08 in a similar position in the rankings, but like you said, may not have had enough panelists visit in the years since.

TK

[Josh Tarble]

Rich Harvest and Canyata? Neither would  make my top 10 in Illinois

Jack,

I've heard all about Rich Harvest...but have you played Canyata?  Any thoughts on it?  Judging a book by it's cover, I have no idea how it could be even top 200 in the US.

(Only reason I ask, is that it's actually located in my hometown, know much of the backstory on it and have never heard of a single person playing it.)

[BCowan]

and Lawsonia doesn't crack the top 200... Impressive that Shoreacres makes it into the top 100 with the only resistance to scoring grade below 7.  I love this list; it keeps all the bedpost notchers and sticks access whoring and paying up for a lot of courses I have little to no interest in playing.  Just makes the quality/$$ equation all the better for those of us who don't prioritize views, exclusivity, difficulty, fairness and keeping up with the Joneses...

Best post of 2015! 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

What happened at THE ALOTIAN..
went from a newbie@14 and dropped 13 places ...hmm one wonders where it will be two years from now?

[John Kavanaugh]

What happened at THE ALOTIAN..
went from a newbie@14 and dropped 13 places ...hmm one wonders where it will be two years from now?

Not under your feet. Remember that every Golfweek rater has his name on the wait list at Digest. When they get called up to the majors some of those hard feelings go with them.

[Jason Thurman]

Jason,

Many golfers take the Golf Digest list as the criteria for what makes a great course.  The worst thing done at Augusta has been the addition of trees.  Why promote adding trees as a good way to "improve" a course?  How many classic age courses have been choked and compromised by years of tree addition instead of responsible tree removal?

Besides, forget waterfalls.  I love the multi stream, pulsating pond fountain with lights.

Ken

Ken, I'm with you on the trees. I just think the answer to your first question is "Because every dopey golf writer thought that way in 2004 and they haven't updated the blurb since."

Also, this is a real thing, apparently:



We can't be more than five years from a course installing one of those and including an app that customers can use control the fountains themselves when on the course. It could be a great revenue stream if they build a bid system into the app that lets users battle for control of the fountains. Honestly, considering that the pace of play at this hypothetical course will inevitably be 5+ hours, it seems like a great way to pass the time while waiting to hit an approach shot.

[Tom Allen]

Thanks for the info Tyler!


[/quote]

Tom,

Camargo was on the GD list in 2005-06 & 2007-08 in a similar position in the rankings, but like you said, may not have had enough panelists visit in the years since.

TK
[/quote]

[Paul Gray]

"firm and yet receptive."

Excuse the use of the term but with that as a criteria they might as well just stop with the pretence and just state that they only like good old 'target golf.' Apparently, if the course has you actually think about your angle of approach because you need to be able to run the ball passed a greenside bunker, rather than just fly it, Golf Digest will mark the course down. Brilliant.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()