[Jason Topp]

The Minnesota Golf Association posted measured driving distances from the first two days of its Amateur Championship.  You can see them here:  http://www.mngolf.org/mga_amateur_driving_distances.html  


I counted 33 people that averaged 300 yards including one person who averaged 350.5.  There are gaps in the data so some people were measured twice, some were measured once and others not at all.

No one would claim these statistics as scientifically calculated.  I do not know the exact methodology used but the weather was warm (80's to low 90's), winds were light and the course is about as flat as one can get in this part of the world.  I am not sure how firm the ground was but there had been heavy rain a couple of days earlier.  

I do know that I have played golf with about 20 of the people on the list and their driving distance is consistent with what I would expect for them on a warm windless day so I do not think the yardages are skewed to any great degree.  

Here are the final scores from the tournament - http://www.ghintpp.com/mngolf/TPPOnlineScoring/ResultsStroke.aspx?id=467

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

Think about the difficulty an architect faces with the disparity in distance amongst amateur golfers.

[Matthew Petersen]

I think the takeaway is that despite how far these guys hit it, they're not exactly breaking any scoring records out there.

[John Percival]

Jason,

Think about the difficulty an architect faces with the disparity in distance amongst amateur golfers.

Patrick,
In addition to the difficulty of hole lengths, the safety issue is becoming stupid.
Long tee balls, when hit off-line, go much farther off the hole corridor and are much more likely to 'plunk' golfers on other holes. The industry norm for safety is 200 feet from centerline to centerline. If shot distances have increased, shouldn't that safety margin? But if that margin increases to say 220 feet, then you're looking at more property or less course. Maybe par 70's will become the norm.
BRING BACK HICKORIES!

[Ken Moum]

Having watched a fair bit of that level of amateur golf, and having scored for an NCAA National Championship and the Ping AJGA Championship, I am not a but surprised by that.

I am certain that there are hundreds of guys in amateur ranks and Web.com events who are longer than all but the very top of PGA Tour players.

I watched Gary Woodland grow up here in Topeka, and I believe his generation is the first to have NEVER played serious golf with balata balls.  I played against him in a match when he was 15 and he was using the Maxfli Revolution.  He might have used a Titileist Professional for a bit but he "learned to play" with multilayer balls.

As a consequence, he has almost no fear of a ball getting away from him.

K

[Jeff_Brauer]

66 of 180 or so, or about a third of top flight competitors hit it over 300.

Do we know the measurement method, i.e, the two drives used on the PGA Tour?

Do we know the conditions?

[Andrew Buck]

66 of 180 or so, or about a third of top flight competitors hit it over 300.

Do we know the measurement method, i.e, the two drives used on the PGA Tour?

Do we know the conditions?

He said hot, not windy and dry.  I carry the ball between 255 - 265 in normal conditions, yet if you put me in 90 degree weather on slightly firm bent grass fairways without wind, I will average right about 300 yards on drives.  It's amazing how much a little firmness and a little heat will impact distance.

[Jason Topp]

Jason,

Think about the difficulty an architect faces with the disparity in distance amongst amateur golfers.

Agreed

[Jason Topp]

I think the takeaway is that despite how far these guys hit it, they're not exactly breaking any scoring records out there.

Yes but I would argue that the game suffers nonetheless.  A 480 yard par 4 is a driver 9 iron for many of these guys.  It is a driver 3 wood for others.  A 450 yard hole was at one time a driver 2 iron hole. 

The game becomes less interesting if one can hit a short iron on most holes and this course is well over 7200 yards.  The best player here is a potential nationwide player if he improves quite a bit.

[Jason Topp]

66 of 180 or so, or about a third of top flight competitors hit it over 300.

Do we know the measurement method, i.e, the two drives used on the PGA Tour?

Do we know the conditions?

Conditions were hot and humid with light winds.  I am not sure whether or not they were with or against the wind.  I am also not sure how firm the fairways were. There was about 3" of rain on Saturday and the course tends to play a bit wet.  Nonetheless, I suspect the distance were about 5 yards further than they would have been on a 70 degree day with normal fairway conditions.  

[William_G]

the" logarithmic" progession of driving distance is evident here and should be acknowledged by all interested in the success of golf

[Doug Siebert]

I wonder what happened with the guy who hit a 74 yard drive.  Caught a tree just past the teebox?

[Steve Kline]

There have always been huge discrepancies in distance between golfers. Twenty five years ago, at the age of 14, I drove it about 225 yards while my friend could it 280-300 yards. Of course, there are way more people that can it that distance today thanks to equipment. Lengthening courses is feeding the problem. Designing greens that require control and positioning off the tee is the answer. Another part of it is not caring if scores go lower or course records are broken.

[Jason Topp]

There have always been huge discrepancies in distance between golfers. Twenty five years ago, at the age of 14, I drove it about 225 yards while my friend could it 280-300 yards. Of course, there are way more people that can it that distance today thanks to equipment. Lengthening courses is feeding the problem. Designing greens that require control and positioning off the tee is the answer. Another part of it is not caring if scores go lower or course records are broken.

True but the 18 handicapper's average distance has increased about 5 yards while PGA tour players have increased their distance by about 15%. I think that the increase has been similar at the state amateur level. 

The greens on this course are wickedly difficult but I have never deciphered how you can improve your chances through positioning off the tee.  That could be because I am often hitting 3 wood or hybrid and have only played the course about five times over the course of many years.  It is not one of my favorites.

Nonetheless, my recollection is that scoring was similar at White Bear Yacht Club a couple of years ago at under 6500 yards compared to this course at 7250.

[Jason Topp]

Here are the 2010 results at White Bear.  Scoring was slightly lower compared to par although they changed a short par five into a par four.

http://www.ghintpp.com/mngolf/TPPOnlineScoring/ResultsStroke.aspx?id=89

The winner is now on the PGA Tour although he has not made a cut all year.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think the takeaway is that despite how far these guys hit it, they're not exactly breaking any scoring records out there.

I'm not familiar with the course they're playing, but has it been lengthened over the years to counter increased distance or is it the same today as the day it opened ?

[Jason Topp]

I think the takeaway is that despite how far these guys hit it, they're not exactly breaking any scoring records out there.

I'm not familiar with the course they're playing, but has it been lengthened over the years to counter increased distance or is it the same today as the day it opened ?

It has been lengthened significantly.  The 9th on this aerial tour is an example. 

http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/medinagcc/aerial.htm

The back tee is down a decent size hill from the prior green making it a strange hole from the back tee and an irritating walk.

[Patrick_Mucci]

There have always been huge discrepancies in distance between golfers.

Steve,

That's not true

If you went back to the 50's and 60's the disparity wasn't nearly what it Is today.

The shorter drive hasn't changed much, but the longer drive has.

The problem is the obsolescence of features and hole design caused by increased distance.

A 400 yard hole was once a drive and 7 iron, today it's a drive and lob wedge,
But what's more important is that features like fairway bunkers, meant to influence and interface with the golfer, have become vestigial features, and therefore, irrelevant, contrary to the architect's intent


Twenty five years ago, at the age of 14, I drove it about 225 yards while my friend could it 280-300 yards. Of course, there are way more people that can it that distance today thanks to equipment. Lengthening courses is feeding the problem.

Designing greens that require control and positioning off the tee is the answer.

With increased speeds, just the opposite is happening

Another part of it is not caring if scores go lower or course records are broken.

I do and so does every club, architects and golf associations.
That's an indication that the challenge has been diminished and/or lost because the architectural features are no longer interfacing with the golfer as they were intended.

[Steve Kline]

Pat - I agree with you in regards to green speeds. They don't really need to be above 9 or 10. More critical to me than speed is just having a smooth surface for the ball to roll on.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

If you are comparing top level golfers and the distance disparity, I think the differences are probably equal percentage wise.

I recall Deane Beaman and a few others were short hitters at about 240 when Nicklaus was hitting it 300+.  Now that is 260 and maybe 325 (yeah a few 350+ drives each year, but then JN hit a few 325 or so) Both are about 25% differences.

Now, if you are comparing the average guys, still stuck at 225 and the top guys, yeah.  Or seniors often still stuck at 190-200 (think it was closer to 180 years ago) then the difference has multiplied a lot.

[Jason Topp]

Now, if you are comparing the average guys, still stuck at 225 and the top guys, yeah.  Or seniors often still stuck at 190-200 (think it was closer to 180 years ago) then the difference has multiplied a lot.

I played in a 9 hole event at my public course with a guy who was about a ten handicap.  Nonetheless he hit the ball unbelievable distances.  On one 350 yard par four that plays a bit downhill he waited until the group in front cleared the green.  I was a bit irritated until he hit and flew it to 10 yards short of the green.  He claimed he popped it up a bit.  Based on some of his drives later in the round, I think he was telling the truth.

Trying to design a safe course for guys like that is a crazy challenge.  I would say his dispersion area off the tee was 100 yards wide.

By the way, he was competing against guys who hit it 225.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

Deane was short amongst the better amateur golfers and more of an anomaly than representative of the shorter PGA Tour Pros.

Nicklaus and his flying right elbow changed the game

If you looked at the driving distances in he late 50's and early 60's,  of the better amateurs and the PGA Tour players and the difference between good amateurs, 30 yards or so might have been the difference.  Today, I think you'll find that disparity in distance is significantly greater

[Lou_Duran]

I think the takeaway is that despite how far these guys hit it, they're not exactly breaking any scoring records out there.

Yes but I would argue that the game suffers nonetheless.  A 480 yard par 4 is a driver 9 iron for many of these guys.  It is a driver 3 wood for others.  A 450 yard hole was at one time a driver 2 iron hole. 

And what is the solution?

If the equipment and the ball are brought back to x year in the past, would the disparity be that much smaller in relative terms?  Distance is its own reward.  Differences in ability, whether in golf, lawyering, or singing, can only be moderated at great costs to the endeavor.  Watching a fast race horse handicapped in a race by a heavy lead belt is only satisfying to those who own the slower hacks.   

[Mark Smolens]

Is distance really its own reward? Isn't it absolutely absurd that at age 55 (almost 56) I can hit the driver much, much further than I could when I was 25? Would I enjoy the game any less if the balls I hit didn't go so far? Absolutely not. And no one can convince me that slowing down the golf ball isn't something that the OEMs couldn't accomplish, if required by the rules makers, almost immediately.

[Lou_Duran]

Is distance really its own reward? Isn't it absolutely absurd that at age 55 (almost 56) I can hit the driver much, much further than I could when I was 25? Would I enjoy the game any less if the balls I hit didn't go so far? Absolutely not. And no one can convince me that slowing down the golf ball isn't something that the OEMs couldn't accomplish, if required by the rules makers, almost immediately.

Well, I am 62, recently refitted  for clubs (for the second time) and balls, and after spending more than I care to disclose, I am still 40-50 yards shorter on average with my driver than I was during the days of the first generation of Big Bertha drivers, and 10-30 yards shorter with my irons.  BTW, I know very few older (actually none), non-professional, once single-digit handicap players who would make your claim (though I don't doubt your veracity).

What's stopping anyone from playing a shorter ball?  Persimmon drivers and forged blades are still available- I have some I'd be glad to sell. 

For those who care, bifurcation is beautiful.  Not prohibition.   

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