[Jeffrey Stein]

There doesn't seem to be much dedicated info or discussion to this RTJ original, in the GCA archive, so I'll gladly be the first (New Yorker) to admit that I played the course and even liked it!  

I kid you not, it felt like a genuine links experience, New York style, with the belt parkway humming in your ear for the first few holes.  



Luckily the day I played in March was breezy and conditions were dry and firm.  Both points should be no surprise as I gather the course was built on landfill and is merely separated from the Atlantic by the parkway and surrounding marshland.

Stephan Kay and superintendent Donald Asinski have been renovating the golf course over the last couple of years and are currently taking on more fill to create some wild looking mounding throughout the golf course.  Although its hard to get a sense of the mounding and how it relates to the routing, I'd like to get a consensus on the aesthetic appeal and character affect on the golf course.





The greens are BIG, with long contours and lots of character.  

For the most part they are wide open in the front or provide at least an open lane to get on the green with a runner.  Below is a long par 3(1/2)  Also beware of the images and look very closely, they are long range shots, these greens are sitting on some big contours/ fill pads



I was completely surprised by the scale of the greens and the property itself which is just about a perfect walking golf course gently rolling with not too much abrupt elevation.
 


Pictured below, the bunker ahead on the left is actually convex!  A neat feature that you will only see in other NY gems like Garden City and National.


With little to no rough at that time in March, the golf course had a wide open and windswept feel that you certainly don't expect to find at a NYC muni.  Top it of with a few skyline views of the Freedom tower and Empire State Building...fuhgetaboutit.

[Brian Finn]

That's pretty cool, Jeffrey.  I have driven by there countless times, and always wondered about the golf course. My Dad grew up a few blocks North of Marine Park. 

Some of the mounds look like they could be worked in fairly well (particularly the large group that appear to be a work in progress), but others such as those just left of that cart path look painfully out of place. 

Can you provide some more info on the course?  Was it typical RTJ?  There is one green (the long par 3 with bunker front middle) that looks decidedly like his work. 

I love seeing these different settings (especially truly urban) where golf is played.  I bet you would be paired up with some great characters over a few rounds there. 

[astavrides]

I played it 3 years ago in winter and it was firm and fast like a links but seemed more like a sea of short grass with flags stuck in here or there. Hence the mounds they are putting in, I guess, for aesthetic purposes.

[Jay Flemma]

Stephen Kay did a good job with his hands tied at Forest Park in Queens - the greens are much improved and the conditioning is better.  But they still won't let him cut any trees down.

Because of that, I'm hopeful that he can make Marine Park better, but that course bores me.  Long, dreary, ugly, architecturally uninteresting, six-to-six-and-a-half hour rounds, and always in horrible condition...plus you had to watch out for thieves stealing your golf clubs.  You pass the seventh tee on your way to the sixth green, so players would leave their clubs on 7 tee...and then thieves in speedboats would run out and steal their clubs.  That's a really common story told by regulars there and there were even starters that would warn you as well.

I'll go see it once Stephen gets done...but unless they let him redesign the golf holes, it's just not that good.  There's no architecture, there's no natural setting, and it takes six hours to play.  Skip it and go play Bethpage Green or Red instead.  Or Tallgrass...which is the same price, great Hanse architecture, and light-years better conditioning.

By the way, I did talk to Stephen and he said the mounds are a protective berm...not just an aesthetic thing, but he does like the way it looks.

[Jeffrey Stein]

Brian,

I wish I could say more about RTJ, I have limited exposure to his work (Heron Lakes in Portland and Eugene CC) and yes I was paired up with a pretty cool character originally from St. Lucia, you can always spot the swing of a former cricket player on the golf course.

Astavrides,

"sea of short grass, with flags stuck in"  is the lack of definition a negative aspect of the golf course for you?  Perhaps it slows down play because people can't seem to figure out which direction to go, hence mounding??  At certain times of the year Old Macdonald will also be presented in a non-descriptive manner, when the rough is cut down.  Marine Park is not in the same class, but as a fan of links golf, I actually appreciated the lack of thick rough and delineated line of play.

Jay,

I'll get to Forest Park in my next thread.

You can't let the circumstances, ie. slow play, poor play, or less than ideal conditions dictate your opinion of any golf course.  If I got my clubs stolen off a speed boat of golfing pirates that would be one hell of a story and I probably would not ever be back....

Spare the sensational stories, Marine Park has much architectural interest in its expose to wind and many of the open approaches to the greens and the greens themselves, period.  No where in NYC PUBLIC golf are you going to see greens of this size and contour.  I putted on punched greens, but looked through all the bumps and bruises, they are cool.  But I don't blame you if you don't want to take the chance and putt on less than ideal conditions and risk a slow round (I got lucky and played in under 5 on a w/e).  Bethpage is by no means any better for slow play and it is further out from the boroughs. 

Urban yes, in that special far out Brooklyn way, but no natural setting??  When did you play last?  Your assesment of Marine Park is a bit harsh and out of touch.

Jeff

[Chris_Blakely]

Wow, Marine Park being talked about here! Now I have seen it all!  Marine Park is the site of the only golf course I have ever been locked in at the end of the round!

Chris

[V. Kmetz]

Love the look of it...sounds absolutely fine for me for that rare day when I make an excursion.

Thank you for posting.

cheers

vk

[Jay Flemma]

Jeff, with respect, Marine Park is among the the least interesting courses I have ever seen.  You grossly overstate the case when you say the greens have contour, the routing is rudimentary, the conditioning is dismal, and the natural setting is dull at best.  I want Stephen Kay to succeed in improving the place, but the City Parks Department isn't likely to want to do anything other than minimum competence.  The place has been one of the worst golf train wrecks for years. If they won'tlet Stephen make strategic design concepts to the course, it will stay a Doak 2...below average.

[Jeffrey Stein]

Jay,

I'm having so much fun arguing on behalf of the underdog that is Marine Park, who knew!  Can't wait to post about Forest Park : ). 

Maybe I was playing in my rose tinted glasses that day but I think you were playing in blackout shades.  Either way, you still would have been able to feel the tilt and roll of the greens.  You are continuing to bash on the one redeeming quality of this golf course based on the assumption that they are in poor condition, from however long ago you played here.  I believe that time has also flattened your memory...

BTW, the NYC Parks Department is the lessor to a new con·ces·sion·aire (had to google that one), Michael Giordano, both parties have put plenty of money into a new driving range, clubhouse, and golf course renovation.  I honestly don't know what Mr. Kay is up to besides managing the fill to be mounded around the golf course although I did observe some recently sodded bunkers, new (but bare) tees and some interesting new grassing lines...??  Could you get the scoop on this for me?

Lets put this all into perspective as well, its actually one of the better publics you can play in the boroughs and its under $50.  In a rose tinted world, with all the traffic, slow play, and stressed conditions aside (typical golf experience in NYC unfortunately) I say its a toss up between Pelham Bay, Latourette, and Marine Park.

Furthermore, I double... NO...TRIPLE, dog dare you to play this golf course again and tell me once more what YOU think about the bones of the greens and their surrounds. We the people of NYC public golf : ) are not interested in what Tom D might rate this course (although I have a feeling Tom might be a little more sympathetic than you!)

[Ronald Montesano]

I don't understand the new mounds...what is the purpose, beyond...well, beyond anything?

Love your spirit, Jeffrey. Keep your thoughts coming.

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