John Chilver-Stainer

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The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« on: December 05, 2012, 04:15:58 am »




What is your first reaction and your second thoughts?




David_Elvins

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2012, 06:26:54 am »
My first thoughts are of strategy.

My second thoughts are of...what's the opposite of hysteria?

To be honest, I am really glad that they are so bad they won't last more than a year.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tony Ristola

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2012, 06:53:22 am »
Seeing as the bunkers at The Old Course have names... from this angle the very first impression that came to mind... The ET Bunkers!  The two eyes and the roll separating them for the nose feature.  :D
Home... gooooh.


Second thoughts? Ugh.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 07:22:12 am by Tony Ristola »

Mac Plumart

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2012, 08:54:46 am »
To be honest, I am really glad that they are so bad they won't last more than a year.

We can only hope.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jud_T

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2012, 09:11:04 am »
Hole to be renamed "Teabag"
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

jeffwarne

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2012, 09:18:52 am »




What is your first reaction and your second thoughts?





artist rendering of new bunkers on second hole

                      ::)  ::)

Rich Goodale

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2012, 09:31:48 am »
Look much better than the Low bunkers they replaced, at least so far.....
Je suis Charlie.

Důnal ” Ceallaigh

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2012, 01:52:06 pm »
I think it's difficult to say at this stage whether they are good or bad. They look like your ordinary bog-standard pot bunkers to me. What about the contouring? Looks like the ground slopes away from them? Should their area of "gathering influence" be greater?
nil desperandum

BCrosby

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2012, 02:11:10 pm »
The issue isn't what the bunkers look like. Let's stipulate that they are the most beautiful bunkers ever built.

The issue is their location.

Bob

Rich Goodale

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2012, 02:15:09 pm »
The issue isn't what the bunkers look like. Let's stipulate that they are the most beautiful bunkers ever built.

The issue is their location.

Bob

Excellent point, Bob.  Until I go there (maybe tommorrow) I will have only a vague idea of their location and how they tie into the rest of the hole.  What is your issue about their location, and upon what points of fact is that issue based?

Rich
Je suis Charlie.

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2012, 02:26:18 pm »
Hi Rich, if you are going to St Andrews can you swing by Pilmour House and pick up a copy of the Dawson/Hawtree master plan for the changes?

I can arrange to have it scanned if they don't have a soft copy to hand.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

BCrosby

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2012, 02:39:59 pm »
Rich -

As noted several times previously on several different threads, the spacious, benign entrance to the 2nd green from the right was an important factor in how to play the hole. That is, the best way to play the hole was down the right side of the fw, risking the whins, bunkers and gunk on that side in order to approach the hole from the right side. That description of how best to play the hole goes back as far as Balfour, through Low, through Mack, through Muirhead and finally to Doak more recently.

New bunkers up against the right side of the green eliminate the logic of plaing the hole that way. I haven't seen the revised hole, but my guess is that the smartest way to play it now is down the middle of the fw, into the middle of the green. A less interesting hole. But wait (to paraphrase the old Popeil commercials), there's worse. The 2nd is now something other than the hole that has been written about many times over the past 150 years.

Bob
  
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 03:04:22 pm by BCrosby »

Rich Goodale

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2012, 02:45:08 pm »
Hi Rich, if you are going to St Andrews can you swing by Pilmour House and pick up a copy of the Dawson/Hawtree master plan for the changes?

I can arrange to have it scanned if they don't have a soft copy to hand.

I can seek, Mark but I cannot guarantee that I shall find.
Je suis Charlie.

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2012, 02:48:21 pm »
Thanks Rich. If you face any static just mention that I know the author of the authoritative "Experience St Andrews" book.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Rich Goodale

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2012, 03:18:04 pm »
Rich -

As noted several times previously on several different threads, the spacious, benign entrance to the 2nd green from the right was an important factor in how to play the hole. That is, the best way to play the hole was down the right side of the fw, risking the whins, bunkers and gunk on that side in order to approach the hole from the right side. That description of how best to play the hole goes back as far as Balfour, through Low, through Mack, through Muirhead and finally to Doak more recently.

New bunkers up against the right side of the green eliminate the logic of plaing the hole that way. I haven't seen the revised hole, but my guess is that the smartest way to play it now is down the middle of the fw, into the middle of the green. A less interesting hole. But (to paraphrase the old Popeil commercials) there's worse. The 2nd is now something other than the hole that has been written about many times over the past 150 years.

Bob
  

Thanks Bob

I never got that feeling when playing or walking over the 2nd, and I am not alone.  I'd be more amenable to your arguments if you would furnish me (and the rest of us) with some documentary evidence of what Low or MacKenzie or Muirhead or Doak (pre-November 2012) or even Popeil had to say.  I have Balfour's book in front of me and all he says (in 1887)....

"At present the tee of this hole is on the right of the Links, while the whins having been driven back, and the low ground to the right near the hole made quite playable, the hole can be played without any bunkers intervening, or any hazards of any kind.  Of course if the player goes off the line he has to encounter some hazards.  The putting green, as has been said, is now on a flat and not a slope."

...only reinforces my thoughts that the hole is (was?) one of the most uninteresting on the course.  Even Morrissett on this site (Courses by Country--2001) does not see fit to mention this hole (or any of the humdrum 2-6 stretch) in his gazetteer....

Rich

Je suis Charlie.

Rich Goodale

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2012, 03:20:06 pm »
Thanks Rich. If you face any static just mention that I know the author of the authoritative "Experience St Andrews" book.

Is that a rip-off of my "Experience The Old Course--St. Andrews Links" book?  If so I will not sue as the Links Trust still holds at least part of the copyright..... :'(
Je suis Charlie.

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2012, 03:26:26 pm »
Oh yes, that's the one! I was using shorthand for the book, which can be ordered here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Experience-Old-Course-Andrews-Links/dp/095500411X
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2012, 03:27:46 pm »


Hardly anyone has commented on the 'problem' at St Andrews that the traditional pin placements on TOC are nearly all towards the centre of the double greens. This leads to slow pay with rounds in the Open at "the home of golf" regularly taking 5+ hours.  In addition many visitors come away saying it's an easy course because they are not playing to those pins.

 Looking at the photo it means that a pin anywhere to the right it still offers  professional golfers a huge target to aim their aerial bombs at, with promise of a flat landing area on what is for them not a long hole.   Is this change aimed at making the day to day course more interesting? 

I think we should be told!
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 03:33:01 pm by Tony_Muldoon »
The Interview
Q: What is your greatest weakness?
A: Honesty.
Q: I don't think honesty is a weakness.
A: I don't give a shit what you think.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2012, 03:30:48 pm »
Oh yes, that's the one! I was using shorthand for the book, which can be ordered here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Experience-Old-Course-Andrews-Links/dp/095500411X



Mark thatís the first edition, soon to be a collectorís item as it no longer accurately reflects today's experience!


Rhic himself has suggested the photography is so detailed they could reconstruct the real experience from it. ;)
The Interview
Q: What is your greatest weakness?
A: Honesty.
Q: I don't think honesty is a weakness.
A: I don't give a shit what you think.

Rich Goodale

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2012, 03:32:51 pm »
Oh yes, that's the one! I was using shorthand for the book, which can be ordered here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Experience-Old-Course-Andrews-Links/dp/095500411X



Mark thatís the first edition, soon to be a collectorís item as it no longer accurately reflects today's experience!


Rhic himself has suggested the photography is so detailed they could reconstruct the real experience from it. ;)

You are right, Tony.  Time for a 2nd edition!
Je suis Charlie.

BCrosby

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2012, 03:34:07 pm »
Rich -

I will get you some quotes. BTW, playing "from the right" is the mantra I've heard from caddies and companions every time I've played the 2nd. They took it to be common knowledge.

Bob

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2012, 03:36:48 pm »
With Peter Dawson at the helm you could put out a new edition next year and the next after that.

Is this why you're arguing for change?

Hi Tony, won't the bunkers slow down play when flags are located over there?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2012, 03:38:48 pm »
With Peter Dawson at the helm you could put out a new edition next year and the next after that.

Is this why you're arguing for change?

Hi Tony, won't the bunkers slow down play when flags are located over there?

For daily play probably, for the professionals definitely not.
The Interview
Q: What is your greatest weakness?
A: Honesty.
Q: I don't think honesty is a weakness.
A: I don't give a shit what you think.

Gary Slatter

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2012, 03:40:19 pm »
GD:  Mr. Dawson, was the decision to improve the Old Course a difficult one for the Committee?

PD:  I knew that it might be, so I did not mention it to them, until after Martin had the equipment in place.

 :)

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: The Old Course new bunkers on the 2nd have been shaped
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2012, 03:44:26 pm »
Can someon please scan Tom Doaks chosen hole from this book.

http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.co.uk/2007/02/paul-daleys-favourite-holes-by-design.html 
The Interview
Q: What is your greatest weakness?
A: Honesty.
Q: I don't think honesty is a weakness.
A: I don't give a shit what you think.

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