News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Park Club is in the midst of a restoration effort to bring the course back to its roots. Having played Park a good bit in high school (it was our home course), I can say that the work that has been done to date is nothing short of miraculous. The superintendent has been with the club for 15+ years and has worked with the consulting architect to return Park to a truly classic, golden-age routing. Fortunately for GCA, the consulting architect is one of our ilk: Ian Andrew. With luck, he will contribute from time to time as this thread progresses.

Clubhouse from 18th Tee

If the clubhouse style looks familiar, it is...if you've been to Winged Foot or Pennhills.

Driving Practice Range


Pitching Practice Range


Tee shot on #1, uphill to rise and beyond


Fairway flat beyond rise, from where 2nd shot on #1 is played


About 163 yards out on #1, which is a reachable par 5, BTW


Closer in, good look at right-side fairway bunkers


Right side of #1 green


Tee ball on #2, a 430-yard downhill par four~used to be a par five


Tee ball, farther up on #2...drop can be seen by large bush on right


#2 from fairway, below drop. #s1 & 2 run parallel, so the rise on #1 is the drop on #2


#2 from fairway, about 130 yards from green, fairway bunkers on right come into view



#2 green, about 75 yards from front edge


#3 from tee, with temptation carry up the left side


#3 temptation bunkers up the line of charm...three can be seen from tee, a fourth is hidden behind the left one


In the jaws of the bunkers


#3 from fairway, if you play right and avoid the bunkers


#3 from fairway, short right, about 45 yards out, right green bunker seen


#3 from left and short, 30 yards from green, two green bunkers guard this side
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 10:00:31 PM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Park Club (Charles Hugh Alison) Williamsville, NY
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2012, 06:38:26 PM »
I sure hope Ian checks in on this one.  I'd be glad to have even more insight to the changes made.

I haven't played the course in roughly 6 years, and it was one of my favorites in WNY back then.  What I saw yesterday elevated the course significantly.  Through the entire day, I was astonished by the new views that had been missing for years.  The course simply "felt" different, which was a wonderful thing.

Buffalo received a surprise ice storm in October 2006 (roughly 2 feet of icy snow on trees that were still full of leaves), which kick-started tree-removal programs at a number of courses.  Luckily, some of the courses, like Park, took note of the improvement and continued the process voluntarily.  Four holes in particular (4, 14, 15, 18) used to feel "restricted" but have lost the claustrophobic character (there were many others, but those were most pronounced).

On top of that, the course restored many of the chipping areas / short grass around the greens, as well as recovered a number of pinnable areas.  Several times I asked our host to confirm "this wasn't green before, right?"  In a number of places, the short grass behind greens would run all the way to the next teeing area, providing a level of intimacy that had been lacking.   

The most striking transformation (to me) was the 15th hole, which used to be one of the holes I dreaded, but is now one of my favorites.  Looking forward to hearing from others during this tour.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Park Club (Charles Hugh Alison) Williamsville, NY
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2012, 07:24:31 PM »
Kevin's notation of the chipping area is the most remarkable element, from my perspective. I'm certain that, as time passes, I will recall other aspects of the restoration that struck me as positive. The chipping areas replaced thick greenside rough, the kind that you hack down at with a wedge, hoping that a golf ball will emerge. Now (15 is a prime example) you have extended green, then extended fringe at chipping height, all the way to and including 16 tee. This was done on so many holes that the members of Park Club will now be proficient at putts from off the green, hybrid chiputts from off the green, bumps into mounds (that used to be suffocated with long grass) and other unique shots. I could do a tour of Park Club's green surrounds and keep it going for days. Unfortunately, I didn't have enough time to take my usual 500+ images (Mark Saltzman is laughing now.)

I have a personal top 25 private courses in Buffalo-Niagara, from about four years back. In it, I list Park 4th; knowing what I now know, seeing what I now see, it is quite possible that Park will ascend into a three-way tie for first by year's end.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Park Club (Charles Hugh Alison) Williamsville, NY
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2012, 10:04:16 AM »
Ron,

You need better photos, they are really blurry to me.


Holes One and Two at Park are essentially the same length and in my mind are both par 4 1/2's

The short grass work began five years ago and has involved major green recapturing and short grass expansions on every hole.
We have done work every years since getting more aggressive as we go.

The club has given super Scott Dodson and I pretty much carte blanche to keep pushing the grassing lines a bit each year.
That's been the greatest improvement, other than perhaps the tree removal (450) 10 years back.

The bunkering is a mix of completely original (9th fairway), bunkers altered by Art Hills (lots) and Doug Carrick (3rd hole fairway bunkers) and a few renovations of mine. The course needs the bunkering restored.

Many people see the Park as a little plain because of the land. It has oustanding greens and plays much better than it looks. It's worth a play, but it won't visually blow you away.
-

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Park Club (Charles Hugh Alison) Williamsville, NY
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2012, 10:23:10 AM »
tough crowd...all right, I'll get to work on the photos...dropped 'em to 400p across, forgetting that I usually load at 780p for this audience...

UPDATE-Better now?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 10:38:17 AM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Park Club (Charles Hugh Alison) Williamsville, NY
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2012, 11:04:40 AM »
Ron - thanks!
I always wondered what was back there behind the clubhouse :)

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Park Club (Charles Hugh Alison) Williamsville, NY
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2012, 12:01:35 AM »
Time for the next three holes. Their respective pars are 4-3-4, but each has the potential to exact a stroke if you're not careful. The 4th is a dogleg right par four, the 5th is an all-county par three and the 6th is a dogleg left par four. Quite the disparity of direction from Mr. Alison.

Tee ball on #4


Tee ball, farther up


Approach shot #4 from 150 yards


Approach shot, zoomed in


Left-front and green-front bunker, #4


Tee ball, #5, from 225 yards


Tee ball, #5, zoomed in


Shot from left side of #5 fariway, looking at putting surface


Tee ball, #6


Tee ball, #6, zoomed in


Approach, #6, from fairway center, some 160 yards out



Approach, #6, zoomed in, about 145 yards out


#6, putting surface, back left


#6, putting surface from back center
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holes 7 through 9, the closing triad of the front nine.

7th Hole From Tee...par 4


7th Hole, farther up fairway


7th Hole, really deep up fairway from tee


7th hole from left side of fairway, about 145 yards out


7th hole into green, note large wave fronting left side of green, can wreak havoc


8th hole from tee, 145 yards, more or less


8th hole from tee, farther up, avoid bunkers


9th hole from middle tee~the back tee goes 600 yards!


#9 from tee, deeper into fairway up left side, gives a sense of width


9th from tee, even deeper, bunker on right acquires proportion


Said bunker


Said bunker, with victim


View of second shot on this par five 9th, from fairway


Second shot on 9, still cannot see beyond/below fairway drop-off to green


What awaits below, in landing area for 2nd shot on #9


About 40 yards shy of green from left
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 06:07:40 PM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
One of the Coral Reefers...
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holes 10 through 12, the opening stretch of the inward nine.

10th Hole From Tee...a mid-length par three (about 180) that plays longer, due to uphill and wind that often comes from the south, in your face


10th Hole, farther up fairway. It's not a Redan, but it plays one on t.v. If you don't get a boost from a high-left kick plate, you are safe from the sand, with a much easier chip/pitch from the front left.


10th Hole, are you convinced that the bunker is to be avoided?


11th hole from the new back tee...about 600 yards worth of hole...reminds you of 10th at Bethpage Black...what fairway?


11th hole, left-side fairway bunker. From the regular tees, you need to avoid it. From the tips, you don't worry about it.


11th hole peering over fairway bunker, at the long run to the green


11th hole, same run, a bit closer in


11th hole from some 160 yards out. Another fairway-grade green that beguiles and tempts


#11 from right side of fairway, about 100 yards out


12th from tee, a half-par hole, between 4 and 5. I had 200 in after a decent drive.


A distant look at the inside corner of the fairway, a place you want to avoid


12th hole, from center-left portion of fairway


12th hole, similar look, 40 yards closer to green


#12, from middle of fairway, 80 yards shy of putting surface
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
The penultimate three-hole stretch is the most fun on the course. Why? It's short and birdieable! 16-18 is a bear, so load up on good numbers here.

#13 from tee deep...when I was a kid, this seemed SOOO much more downhill...little par three that plays 1-2 clubs less than yardage


#13 a bit closer in


#13 from way in...don't go long!


#14 tee from #13 green. You descend into the bowl, then ascend out. Bridge is a neat feature.


Tee ball on #14. Up the hill to a wide fairway.


Looking back at #14 tee from edge of fairway


Approach to #14 green from 180 out


Approach to #14 green from 140 out


This is the bunker front and right that you suspect but can't see from fairway


#15 tee...Used to think this drop shot was much more severe, back in the day...don't go left, don't go long right


#15 from tee, closer in


A shortish drive on #15 leaves double jeopardy in toward the green


#15 toward green, closer in. The back of the green is shaved and remains that way all the way to #16 back tee. Awesome feature!!
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ron, any thoughts on that tree on 15?

What about the bunkering on 13? Seems very shallow and too far set back for what I presume is a short par-3.

10 looks very good.  So why exactly can we not call that a redan? That's everybody's favorite R-word and automatically gets the course bonus points.

The tee shots on 11 and 14 confuse me.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
1. Tree on 15 should go. Ian could probably tell you why it's still there.

2. Agree about bunkering on 13. I'd like to see it play as a CBM Short or flash up a seeing-eye bunker in front. I don't think Alison was known for creativity in bunkering.

3. The right side on #10 is not raised high enough to serve as a kick plate.

4. Both 11 and 14 are doglegs left. I shot #11 from the 600-yard tees...what you are seeing in front of you is rough that has a unique mowing pattern, hence the confusion. #11 plays at grade level the whole way down, while #14 rises up to the fairway, then runs at fairway grade up to the green, where a mini valley of sin protects the front a bit.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
1. Tree on 15 should go. Ian could probably tell you why it's still there.


While I'm normally a huge proponent of the chainsaw, I respectfully disagree with Ron on this one.  I don't think of the tree as a "redundant" hazard in this case.  It's a single tree positioned well to force a little bit of thought from the tee.  The fairway is relatively wide for a fairly short (340ish) hole, so I don't mind asking the player to flirt with the right side bunkers (if hitting driver), or make them position right if using a shorter club.  Without the tree, a player could pull an iron or hybrid left, and have zero problem (the sand isn't really an obstacle for the approach).  If anything, the sand is the redundant hazard on the left side.

It may also be a function of me being thrilled that there's only one tree left.  This hole used to be one of the more claustrophobic, with a mini-nursery of pines in what is now the left rough (short of the remaining tree), as well as tighter encroachment of trees just off the tee.  In fact, my recollection is that a good portion of fairway was added in the area where Ron shot the pic.

Overall, I just love the look and feel of this hole, which user to be one of my least favorites.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Has the membership embraced the restoration?

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Dan, the membership has embraced the restoration. It recognizes the value of its course as the focalelement of the club. While a clubhouse expansion is set to begin, it will not harm the course at all. More tree removal is on the dock. There is talk of returning one hole to its original playing corridor. Interestingly, after looking at it (literally) from both directions, the new hole seems to be as good or better than the old hole.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
That is the last tree of what was once 28 trees.
There is a decent chance this one is next.

As for the bunkers, half are done.
We do a few each year.

As for short grass, we are mostly done, but extend a few areas each spring

The 17th alignment is on the back burner for now.

The course plays much better than it looks, very low key architecture with great green contours and surrounds.
-

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
"The course plays much better than it looks, very low key architecture with great green contours and surrounds. "


This is the accurate statement of the year. In contrast with the other photo thread I am concurrently updating, Park is nowhere near as visually stimulating as CCTroy. It plays, however, like CCTroy looks (CCTroy plays like it looks, too.)

The green speeds at Park are quite fast. This is helpful, I think, in identifying break. As the AimPoint guys will tell you, the more a ball slows, the more it breaks. As a result, you get a lot of break in the last feet of any putt at Park.

Another caveat (somewhere, Mark Saltzmann is smiling...): as we were the guests of a member, I did not wish to shoot my usual 500+ images at Park. As a result, you get a slice of the course here, but nowhere near the complete portrait of a typical Montesano photo shoot.

To its credit, when I asked the course to pout, it did (is that even funny?)
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why Park Club's greens appear uninspired:

From this thread:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38558.0.html

we get this quote from Ed Homsey: "That course was designed by Colt and Allison in 1926 and construction was done by Harries and Hall."

Harries, the designer of wretched greens...worked in an era of glorious green designs and his were simply uninspired.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thanks for posting this photo tour Ron. Is there anywhere I could see some photos from before the work was completed? How long has the tree removal and bunker work been going on for? Looks like it would be a lot of fun to play.
H.P.S.

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ron, enjoying the tour but it could really be enhanced if you would show where Kevin's drives ended up.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ron, enjoying the tour but it could really be enhanced if you would show where Kevin's drives ended up.

Sorry, no hanging-off-the-side-of-a-cliff scrambles this day (a la Ballyhack's 9th).  Was working hard on burying the right elbow into my side this day, with some decent results (don't worry - my swing key discoveries have a limited shelf life, so you're likely to see the full array at the Saul Shootout). 

However, Ron should feel free to emphasize where Kevin's shots went on 18 (he owes it to me after my "bunker victim" pic on 9).

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat Craig: Love to show you, but my links to those pictures don't work.

Kevin "Needy" Lynch crushed a drive that conspired with gravity and lit on this revolving earth some 300 yards from its point of origin. This bunyanesque chop was followed by a spinning wedge that exceeded known g-forces to zip to a halt two Royal cubits from the hole's bosom. I recollect that he tapped in for birdie.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
The final triad are a back breaker. The finish is made up of consecutive par fours, each with a treed side from which escape is a minimum half-stroke penalty. 16 plays flat, about 440 yards. 17 is slightly uphill to landing zone, then extremely uphill to putting surface. 18 is extremely downhill to landing area, then slightly uphill to green. Of the three, the one whose green you can afford to miss is ... none of them.

#16 tee shot from farthest deck


#16 tee shot, zoomed in


#16 landing area, left side


#16 landing area, right side


#16 high-lipped left front greenside bunker, Hoxsie raking technique


#17 tee shot from farthest deck


#17 tee shot, zoomed in to corner


#17 landing area, right side


#17 landing area, right side, zoomed in


#17 approach, enormous left front bunker


#18 tee shot, best-looking tee shot in western New York


#18 tee shot, zoomed in


#18 tee shot...before Ian's work, you could not see the clubhouse left side, as trees choked the left rough. Cleared out now, it's awesome~


#18 tee shot, zoomed in to green and clubhouse...what a clubhouse


#18 landing area, right side


#18 landing area for bunyanesque drives


#18 putting surface, g-force defying approaches only
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back