[Bill_Yates]

I'm doing research for a book and would love to find a routing of the original twenty-two holes that before 1764, made up The Old Course. I've found plenty of text describing it but have not yet found an illustration.  Any thoughts about where to look?

Thanks in advance.

[John Foley]

Bill,

Per Scott Macpherson's great book "St. Andrews - The Evolution of the Old Course" the first map of the course was the Plan of the Pilmour Links belonging to James Cheapes of Strathtyrum. Prior to this time the course route was not marked by anything more than the edge of the whins.

Scott may have more details but if he did I would think it would have ended up in his book

[Matthew Rose]

I'm guessing there would have been four more greens (or two more double greens?)

[Tony_Muldoon]

There were a couple of excellent articles on this in The British Golf Collectors Society magazine about 18 months ago.


They get uploaded here

http://www.golfcollectors.co.uk/through-the-green

I'm off to work but if no joy email me and I'll look for them.

[Nigel Islam]

According to the Graves/Cornish book two double greens were eliminated to get the course to 18, but I think the 17th was created in the 1840s.

[Bill_McBride]

Where is Melvyn when you need him?

[Bill_Yates]

Thanks to you for all the helpful posts.

Tony, I found the link to the British Golf Collectors Society to be a wonderful overall resource as well.

And, if Melvyn shows up, I'll look forward to hearing all he has to offer on the subject.

[Dan King]

Why not call the Royal and Ancient? If such a drawing exists, they should know. I've read plenty about it, but I don't ever remember seeing a routing.

Cheers,
Dan King

What golf has of honour, what it has of justice, of fair play, of good fellowship, and sportsmanship - in a word, what is best in golf - is almost surely traceable to the inspiration of the Royal and Ancient.
  --Isaac Grainger

[Adrian_Stiff]

I was there yesterday and had a look at the land behind the clubhouse, I think two holes were there from memory. Its hard with buildings and concrete to really see. Remember in those days it was more of an 11 holer than 22, there were no double greens as such.

[Scott Macpherson]

Hi Bill,

I think this is an interesting question. I have done some mindful thinking on the matter but my book begins from the first plan of the course in 1821. The period you are talking about is in the mid- 1700's. To this end, the best article on the matter, which includes some illustrations, was written by Peter Lewis and published in 'Through The Green' in June 2011. It is called 'The Lost Holes of St Andrews'.

Best of Luck,

Scott

[Bill_Yates]

Scott,
I'm excited to have your comments and the new reference. I read your article in "Through the Green" and found it fascinating and helpful. I'd love to reference it in the technology section of my book as well.

Best wishes,
Bill

[Chris Buie]

I'm doing research for a book and would love to find a routing of the original twenty-two holes that before 1764, made up The Old Course. I've found plenty of text describing it but have not yet found an illustration.  Any thoughts about where to look?

Bill, is this what you are looking for?







You can find the original here:

http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital_rhps/nas.php?p_filename=RHP---00404-00001-00001-&refer=L3NlYXJjaC8/YWN0aW9uPWRvX3NlYXJjaCZwX3R5cGU9UEFSSVNIJnBfbmFtZT1zdF9hbmRyZXdzX2FuZF9zdF9sZW9uYXJkcyZpZD0xMjU4JnBfY291bnR5PWZpZmU=

[Bill_Yates]

Chris,
Thanks! If it has the correct date ie. prior to 1764, it may well be exactly what I am looking for.

Take care,
Bill

[Scott Macpherson]

HI Bill,

I am not exactly sure what the scope of your research is, but the plan that Chris has kindly uploaded is the plan by A.Martin of Dec 8th 1821. This is where my book starts. I believe this to be the first plan of the Links. I never found anything earlier than this plan, but I did find 2 versions of this plan.

Best of Luck,

scott

[Chris Buie]

Looking closely at it you can see Scott is correct on the date, of course. Another detail from this fascinating image:



I'm not sure I've seen cartography charted quite this way before. Does anyone care to elaborate on their notations?

Scott is too much of a gentleman to hawk his own book on here - but I will (unbidden) do it for him:
http://www.tmgolfdesign.com/book3.html

Undoubtedly, a worth addition to your library.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Looking closely at it you can see Scott is correct on the date, of course. Another detail from this fascinating image:

I'm not sure I've seen cartography charted quite this way before. Does anyone care to elaborate on their notations?

Scott is too much of a gentleman to hawk his own book on here - but I will (unbidden) do it for him:
http://www.tmgolfdesign.com/book3.html

Undoubtedly, a worth addition to your library.

Chris,

"do" is standard for "Do Over." In this case, they're repeating "The breadth of the Course from" and "yards. So, I think this is more of a plat establishing the boundaries of the course.

The yardage table is adding the length of the holes to each other. So to pick one number: 1183 = 379 + 350 + 152 + 302.

And the verbiage at the bottom spells out distances in different terms. So, Out you have 1 mile (1760 yards) + 6 furlongs ( 6 * 220 yards) + 109 yards = 3189 yards. If you double that to out and back, it's 3 miles, 4 furlongs, 218 yards for 6,378 total yards.

I can't say that I've ever seen it presented that way before either, but I checked the math, and it works out, so I'm confident that's the correct interpretation.

[DMoriarty]

Wow that is amazing.  Thanks for posting it Chris!  

[Yancey_Beamer]

The land for the holes is from the Martyrs Monument downhill through the R&A Clubhouse to the 1st tee and the18th green.
I was shown this by a R&A member.It was obvious to me that these are quite short holes and uncomfortable holes as they are
the only holes on the course that are built on a hillside.Essentially they do not fit with the rest  of the course.

[Bill_Yates]

Let's split this thread.
Here is a second question I want to ask all of you.

Question #2;
"Why in 1764 did they combine four holes into two?"

Above, it looks like Yancey anticipated the question.

Any other ideas?

[Wayne_Kozun]

Question #2;
"Why in 1764 did they combine four holes into two?"

Because somebody's wife got pissed off that her husband was taking 5 hours to play a round of golf.

[Dan King]

Wayne_Kozun writes:
Because somebody's wife got pissed off that her husband was taking 5 hours to play a round of golf.

The only way the old Scots would take five hours for a round of golf was if they took a 2-3 hour nap somewhere along the way.  Perhaps you meant to say two rounds of golf.

Americans invented slow golf, not Scots.

Cheers,
Dan King

Something very drastic ought to have been done years and years ago. Golf courses are becoming far to long. Twenty years ago we played three rounds of golf a day and considered we had taken an interminably long time if we took more than two hours to play a round. Today it's not infrequently takes over three hours.
 --Alister MacKenzie

[Bill_McBride]

One really wonderful thing from that 1821 map is that the "March stones" are still there!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Bill,

Certainly i've read somewhere (in hard copy) that the first 4 holes going out were combined in to 2 (i.e. 4 in to 8 in total) in 1764 merely because they were short and unsatisfactory.... I suspect Melvyn has written elsewhere on this website where the initial 1st tee was (as Yancy refers to) and any other reasons why they might have ceased to use the land at The Scores behind the R&A clubhouse...

[Scott Macpherson]

Bill, Ally & Yancey,

Peter Lewis wrote in his article in 'TTG',  'It has been mooted in the past that the course used to extend eastwards up to and beyond where Martyr's Monument is now located and there were two additional holes in that location. I think this is extremely unlikely'. I am inclined to agree with Peter, though there is always room for more research on this matter. Keep your mind open on this matter and question the long held belief that the course always started 'up on the hill'.

Scott

[Chris Buie]

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