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Brian Colbert

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Just finished 18 at Merion
« on: June 23, 2012, 06:15:54 PM »
A few quick observations:

I played every single Open tee except for #14 which you're not allowed to play. The only one which I saw as an issue was #14. On 14, the trees only come into play if you hit a low fade as your natural ball flight, they are not as tall as I remembered them. The member I played with told me that MacDowell played out there a couple weeks ago and it was a driver-3hybrid for him. It's going to be a bear! The new tee on 4 isn't a big deal, 50 yards longer but on the same line. The only problem is that there is a tree about 70 yards from the tee to the left which is merely a psychological hazard for tour-caliber players more than a physical hazard. 3 has a new tee which makes it a brutal par 3! For most of the guys it's a 3-wood at least. My host told me that the most likely setup was gong to be one day on the 275 yard box, 2 days one box up from that, and one day at the next box up. He also said that he thought they would make the 10th "very" drivable a la 7 at Olympic on the day they had 3 all the way back. 9 is a really long hole too! With the pin all the way back I had to hit a 2-iron to get there. Fortunately we had a lot of rain last night and I was able to stop it before it went into that back left bunker. 18 is ridiculously long from all the way back, it took a good hit off the tee just to reach the fairway. That said, I believe it returns the hole to its "intended" length because only the longest guys out there should be able to reach the slope.

The moved/narrowed fairways won't be a problem for the tour guys. Those who are familiar with the course are more thrown off than those who aren't. 2 is not as close to the road as I had imagined and really was not that much more challenging. A shot that leaks right will surely be out of bounds but there is enough room left that the players have a fair bailout. 6 was moved to the left a bit and makes it a tougher fairway to hit with the extra rough on the right. 7 is now right along the fence line which makes it a very tough 370 yard hole. One of the players in my foursome was in the right fairway and had to negotiate the trees. I was where the original fairway was to the left near the new tee on four and it is a difficult shot to get over that bunker now. 11 is now visually very confusing because it feels like a dogleg left, however the play is now to fire straight at the pin off the tee with an iron. Other than the confusion I don't think it affects the difficulty of the hole. 15 Hugs the fence line and the new bunkers definitely make the tee shot more interesting. I like to hit a draw off the tee and that makes this a very awkward tee shot for me.

The 12th green is noticeably more gradual. It is not ready for championship play but it definitely will be in time for the Open (probably will by the end of the summer).

This is probably one of the hardest courses under 7000 yards I have ever played. In my opinion the changes did not "ruin" the golf course. The only complaints from my host were about the different lines off the tee but as soon as he learns them I doubt he will see it as an issue anymore. The narrower fairways will protect the golf course and the greens are still fantastic. They were rolling about 10 or 11 today and still difficult. It will hold up next year against the world's best, I can see a winning score anywhere between -8 and even par.

Anyway, I hope I didn't say anything too controversial, feel free to ask questions as the course is as fresh in my mind as it is in anyone's right now. I had a great time and shot 74 in case you were wondering!  ;D

Mark McKeever

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2012, 06:42:54 PM »
Solid play.  Any birdies in the 74?  Also, any thoughts on the 15th green?

Mark
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 06:47:13 PM by Mark McKeever »
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Brian Colbert

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2012, 08:15:47 PM »
Solid play.  Any birdies in the 74?  Also, any thoughts on the 15th green?

Mark

A birdie on 8 to match bogeys on 5, 7 and a double on 12 from the middle of the fairway.

15 green was pretty severe. I was about 10 feet long for my first putt (middle pin over the bunker) and literally just trickled it down at least 3 feet past. That back left bunker is a remarkably awful spot.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2012, 08:25:48 PM »
You played 18 from the +500 yard tee?  Did you hit the FW?  If so, what did you have in?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tom_Doak

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2012, 08:42:24 PM »
Brian:

How many times had you played Merion before?

Brian Colbert

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2012, 08:42:48 PM »
You played 18 from the +500 yard tee?  Did you hit the FW?  If so, what did you have in?


We played it from the one behind the cart path, I think the official number was 525 according to my host. I hit driver just in the left rough and had about 215 in to the green

Brian Colbert

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2012, 08:44:43 PM »
Brian:

How many times had you played Merion before?

Just one. And I finished in the dark so I didn't get a very good look at the last few holes.

Matthew Rose

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2012, 08:54:07 PM »
I think I'm looking forward to next year's Open more than any in recent memory.

I'm not all that familiar with Merion.... I've never seen it on TV and certainly not in the flesh. In 1981 I was four. I do know the history and have a good idea of the layout from photos, but that's not the same.


American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2012, 08:58:45 PM »
Here is a composite album I have from a handful of visits from 2008 to 2010:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/merion/
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Scott Warren

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2012, 09:11:56 PM »
Brian,

What do narrower fairways "protect" the course from?

John Kirk

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2012, 09:17:51 PM »
Great golf, Brian.

How deep was the rough?

I can't believe they have a 270 yard tee for the 3rd hole.  That hole has a sensational green site.  Love that hole.

TEPaul

Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2012, 11:54:27 PM »
"A few quick observations:

I played every single Open tee except for #14 which you're not allowed to play. The only one which I saw as an issue was #14. On 14, the trees only come into play if you hit a low fade as your natural ball flight, they are not as tall as I remembered them. The member I played with told me that MacDowell played out there a couple weeks ago and it was a driver-3hybrid for him. It's going to be a bear! The new tee on 4 isn't a big deal, 50 yards longer but on the same line. The only problem is that there is a tree about 70 yards from the tee to the left which is merely a psychological hazard for tour-caliber players more than a physical hazard. 3 has a new tee which makes it a brutal par 3! For most of the guys it's a 3-wood at least. My host told me that the most likely setup was gong to be one day on the 275 yard box, 2 days one box up from that, and one day at the next box up. He also said that he thought they would make the 10th "very" drivable a la 7 at Olympic on the day they had 3 all the way back. 9 is a really long hole too! With the pin all the way back I had to hit a 2-iron to get there. Fortunately we had a lot of rain last night and I was able to stop it before it went into that back left bunker. 18 is ridiculously long from all the way back, it took a good hit off the tee just to reach the fairway. That said, I believe it returns the hole to its "intended" length because only the longest guys out there should be able to reach the slope."



Brian:

I think those are all very good and very valid observations on your part!

Bill Shotzbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2012, 12:02:48 AM »
Brian,

I played the east course once in  June of 2005, just months before the Am, from the members tee. With the lines you're describing it sounds like you played a different course today!

Congrats on your win in the Philly Am! I heard you had 115 in on #6 at Torresdale (my joint) in your qualifying round...in the rain, no less....that's impressive!!!   ;D

TEPaul

Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2012, 12:17:16 AM »
Brian Colbert:

You won the Philly Amateur??!?

I guess I'm not keeping up with things around here.

A hearty congratulations to you.

And you had 115 in on #6 at Torresdale? Aaah, was it playing really firm and fast? If so, big deal---you just got it over the center-line ridge and bounced it down some.

In my day, no one got it over that centerline ridge on that hole! ;)

I think Torresdale's Philly Am was when I lost another one to Sigel by alot as most of us did in those days. He was hugely long and I don't remember him having anything close ot 115 in on #6. To me #7 and particularly #8 were of more concern.

John Shimony

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2012, 09:07:14 AM »
On 11, was the pin ever visible from the tee before the Open prep?  If not - I've never played there but have walked it a few times - then that sounds like a positive change in terms of adding interest.  But of course Brian did say you need to aim right at the pin so maybe the change is just aesthetically positive and strategically neutral.
John Shimony
Philadelphia, PA

Terry Lavin

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2012, 09:36:56 AM »
Envy is far too small a word!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Brian Colbert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2012, 10:02:30 AM »
Brian,

What do narrower fairways "protect" the course from?

I believe the narrower fairways "protect" the course from the length of the modern golfer. Maybe not to the degree that the USGA and the club would like, but there is very little incentive to be hitting a driver on holes 7 and 8, for example, because being in the thick rough combined with the greens being as firm and fast as they will be for the open can leave some impossible shots. I think you'll see more irons off the tee than in years past.

Semi related note: I would say this is one of the longer <7000 yard golf courses I have played. Of the top of my head I can only think of a few holes in which I had "scoring clubs" into the green (throwing out par 5s): 1, 8, 10, 11, and 14. For a course that is under the 7000 mark, that is very few for me. I think it's safe to say the US Open next year will be a rare treat. My single hope for the tournament is that it shows the USGA that a shorter course can still hold up against the world's best if presented correctly.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2012, 10:07:35 AM »
Envy is far too small a word!

I had thought of replying to Brian's first post with:

"74 nett, not bad; what was your gross score?"  ;D

Brian Colbert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2012, 10:17:00 AM »
To those who have asked: it is true that I was 115 yards out on #6 at Torresdale Frankford. I feel somewhat obligated to point out that one of the guys I played with hit it about 15 yards closer than that. The course was playing pretty firm and I played it in the morning so the rain hadn't softened it up too much yet. Gotta love modern advances in equipment- a 5'7" runt like me can hit the ball further than anyone could about 20 years ago.

As far as the Amateur Championship, I couldn't think of a course that is worse suited for my game than Huntingdon Valley. As Mark McKeever can testify, my natural ball flight is a soft draw and that's tough to control when the ball is about 2 feet above your stance on every shot. Still not entirely sure how I was able to win on that golf course. Guess that's just match play. That said, I think HV is one of the best 5 golf courses in Philadelphia along with PV, MGC, Aronimink, and Wissahickon (the last 2 and HV in no particular order). The strategic merits of the course are underrated and underappreciated. I don't understand how it continually falls by the wayside when course raters cast their votes. Maybe they accidentally played the C nine ;D

Bill Shotzbarger

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2012, 09:25:23 AM »
Playing a soft draw and hitting it 310+, it's no wonder you tore up TFCC and Merion! Both courses have a lot of OOB right on the front 9s (and then OOB left on the back).

Best of luck qualifying for the US Amateur and Merion next year!

RE: HVCC being rated lower than it should, I think it's got to be the greens because it has a wonderful layout and amazing shot values. "Everything breaks towards the valley" Understood; but what about when you're IN the valley?! I find the greens almost impossible to read due to all of the grain and quirks they have. And for that reason I'd play Philly Country or Rolling Green over HVCC almost any day of the week. To each his own, I guess...
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 09:37:52 AM by Bill Shotzbarger »

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2012, 10:49:54 AM »
The new tee on 4 isn't a big deal, 50 yards longer but on the same line. The only problem is that there is a tree about 70 yards from the tee to the left which is merely a psychological hazard for tour-caliber players more than a physical hazard. 3 has a new tee which makes it a brutal par 3! For most of the guys it's a 3-wood at least. My host told me that the most likely setup was gong to be one day on the 275 yard box, 2 days one box up from that, and one day at the next box up. He also said that he thought they would make the 10th "very" drivable a la 7 at Olympic on the day they had 3 all the way back. 9 is a really long hole too!
I am not trying to be argumentative but how does your friend know where they are going to be setting up tees 11.5 months out?  I would doubt that the USGA and Mike Davis have even thought too much about that yet.  They may have mused about perhaps moving tees around but I really doubt they have decided on how many days at what distance.

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2012, 11:58:09 AM »
The new tee on 4 isn't a big deal, 50 yards longer but on the same line. The only problem is that there is a tree about 70 yards from the tee to the left which is merely a psychological hazard for tour-caliber players more than a physical hazard. 3 has a new tee which makes it a brutal par 3! For most of the guys it's a 3-wood at least. My host told me that the most likely setup was gong to be one day on the 275 yard box, 2 days one box up from that, and one day at the next box up. He also said that he thought they would make the 10th "very" drivable a la 7 at Olympic on the day they had 3 all the way back. 9 is a really long hole too!
I am not trying to be argumentative but how does your friend know where they are going to be setting up tees 11.5 months out?  I would doubt that the USGA and Mike Davis have even thought too much about that yet.  They may have mused about perhaps moving tees around but I really doubt they have decided on how many days at what distance.

Mike Davis and the USGA start thinking about the setup when they order for new tee boxes.

I agree with Brian; that is probably what is going to happen.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2012, 01:29:26 PM »
Rumor has it  that it will play at 6999, they knew about where those tee boxes were going to be after all the mapping at the 05 U S Am. Why have all those folks measuring and mapping if they didnt have a good idea where to place the boxes.

Dammit I hope they didnt have me standing out there for two days with pencils and maps as a joke. Would be funny however, I can keep a Pollock busy for hours, pencils and papers and a good bs story. ???

Did they pull up the GAP marker on the practice green where the back tee on 14 was going??? Brings the infamous " stop sign" into play.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Anthony Butler

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2012, 02:19:30 PM »
3 has a new tee which makes it a brutal par 3! For most of the guys it's a 3-wood at least. My host told me that the most likely setup was gong to be one day on the 275 yard box, 2 days one box up from that, and one day at the next box up.
Given the fact there will likely  be no chance of running your tee shot on during the Open, the further back the tee, the hole the further back on the green they will place the pin...?
Next!

JESII

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2012, 02:49:00 PM »
Makes sense Anthony...and for what it's worth, the green surface is wider back there as well...

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