[Mark Bourgeois]

How will the venue of next year's US Open differ from 65 years ago? Besides crazy skinny fairways, I mean.

http://golfcoursehistories.com/Merion.html

[Mark Bourgeois]

To clarify: I've been enjoying the Chip Oat threads and everyone's photo and video contributions. I thought an aerial comparo might add to the discussion -- didn't want to spam every thread so just posted it here. Use or abuse at will.

[BCrosby]

This 'slider' thing is revolutionary. It makes comparing courses then and now easy and clear.

For example, looking at the fw widths on 2 and 5, the 2012 corridors are less than half as wide as they were in 1937.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob,

I've commented on how narrow Merion's, WFW's and Shinnecock's fairways have become after they host Opens.

They keep getting narrower and narrower and are NEVER returned to their original or earlier widths.

For 4 days every 13 years members and guests keep getting a course that's less and less fun to play.

The beauty of NGLA and GCGC is that they've maintained their fairway widths.

[TEPaul]

"They keep getting narrower and narrower and are NEVER returned to their original or earlier widths."


Pat:

That would not be wholly correct with Shinnecock. While the fairways may never return to their original widths which was app. 50 plus acres, they did return them from their 2004 US Open widths that was in the mid-20 acre area back to the mid-30s which was what they were before their narrowing for the 2004 US Open. It was all preconceived and it was done by sodding in and then sodding back out which is a whole lot faster.

Actually that would not be wholly correct either with Merion's fairways.

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Mark. 

At its bones Merion has always been sophisticated strategic course, with the fairway and green shapes and contoursworking in unison to create subtle options and potential advantages for the thinking golfer capable of executing the proper shot. The travesty of these modern setups is that sometimes these subtle options end up buried under the thick hay.   Thanks for helping us visual that.   I was under the impression that for Merion the USGA had realized the importance of width on some of these holes, but maybe not. 

[JESII]

David,

I took a walk around Merion a couple months ago and it looked like the only widthbeing promoted was the width of the rough...unfortunately.

That said, the subtle nuances you talk about don't exactly influence the US Open guys do they?

[DMoriarty]

Jim,  I guess not, but people keep telling us that this Mr. Davis is some sort of a setup genius who really understands architecture, so I had high hopes. 

[JESII]

The number one problem Merion does have is players hitting wedge into so many holes. Wide fairway certainly looks great, but a wedge from the wrong position (but still in the fairway) is no different to these guys than a wedge from position A. Just the reality.

I can only think of two holes that even carry the risk of a sloping fairway carrying a ball into the rough, or bad position...#4 and #18.

Figuring out a way to guarantee really really firm greens would be the only way, other than a ton of rough, to present a physical and mental challenge to these guys.

[JSlonis]

The number one problem Merion does have is players hitting wedge into so many holes. Wide fairway certainly looks great, but a wedge from the wrong position (but still in the fairway) is no different to these guys than a wedge from position A. Just the reality.

I can only think of two holes that even carry the risk of a sloping fairway carrying a ball into the rough, or bad position...#4 and #18.

Figuring out a way to guarantee really really firm greens would be the only way, other than a ton of rough, to present a physical and mental challenge to these guys.

Sully,

What you said above is exactly what I pointed out on a previous Merion thread.  I can't recall any Major course that will have more wedge/short iron approches. These guys will have a wedge/short iron into 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13 and possibly 15 & 16.  Obviously, playing from the fairway is a must but that's a lot regardless of the overall setup.

[mike_malone]

 They had alot of wedges at Aronimink as well, but the greens were hard and not real fast. This created issues for the players and the course stood the test. I wonder if variable green speeds is a possibility. They slowed down #18 at Southern Hills and I thought they might do this at Merion for a few holes. I find that idea better than rebuilding greens.

[Jim Franklin]

Bob,

I've commented on how narrow Merion's, WFW's and Shinnecock's fairways have become after they host Opens.

They keep getting narrower and narrower and are NEVER returned to their original or earlier widths.

For 4 days every 13 years members and guests keep getting a course that's less and less fun to play.

The beauty of NGLA and GCGC is that they've maintained their fairway widths.

Couldn't agree more. I played Merion the other day and the fairways were 24 yards wide at most and in the teens for a lot of them. Give me NGLA any day. I will say I had fun playing Merion though and look forward to watching next year. I really hope they widen the fairways after the event though.

[Chris Buie]

Which of these multiple difficulties would not be solved by using a proper tournament ball?

[DMoriarty]

The number one problem Merion does have is players hitting wedge into so many holes. Wide fairway certainly looks great, but a wedge from the wrong position (but still in the fairway) is no different to these guys than a wedge from position A. Just the reality.

I'll take your word (and that of JSlonis and others) that there will be lots of wedges.  But I am not so sure that a wedge from the wrong position in these fairways is no different as a wedge from position A.  Yes it depends upon the firmness (and pin positions) but my guess is that angle and elevations changes would still matter, especially over 72 holes. The USGA might not get their desired even or plus winning score, but the best player that week would come out on top.

But assuming you are correct, then what is the point of having the tournament at a great course at Merion?  Aren't they burying the greatness under four inches of rough?

I can only think of two holes that even carry the risk of a sloping fairway carrying a ball into the rough, or bad position...#4 and #18.

I'll take your word for this as well, as I have very limited experience and am relying in large part on descriptions of how the holes used to play.  That said, though, I am not sure we are speaking about the same thing here.  I can imagine other holes where it seems like proper positioning would matter if the holes were wide enough for proper positioning to even be a consideration.   Likewise, on some of the holes a wider fairway might invite the golfer to end up in a spot where he might not want to be.  

How about the 15th for example?  From early descriptions it sounds as if a ball running off to the right created a very difficult approach.  If the ball could still run well to the right, would this not be the case?   Or how about the 7th and 8th?   My understanding of the seventh as that a miss to the left would create a very difficult angle from well below the hole.  Won't the rough prevent balls from running well down to the right? toward the forth tee?

Figuring out a way to guarantee really really firm greens would be the only way, other than a ton of rough, to present a physical and mental challenge to these guys.

Maybe but the kind of mental challenge you are talking about is more of the mental endurance kind of thing, isn't it?

[TEPaul]

"Figuring out a way to guarantee really really firm greens would be the only way,...."


Jim Sullivan:

And that is precisely what they plan to do. It's what they've been doing with their significant tournament planning ever since Matt Shaeffer took over some years ago. He had that golf course screaming fast both "through the green" and on the greens for both the 2005 US Amateur and the 2009 Walker Cup but one day before each the weather turned on them and absolutely poured and took a lot of it out.

I watched a number of those Walker Cuppers practicing the day before the rain came and their eyes were literally wider watching just how much that golf course was bouncing and rolling out.

At some point after that Matt mentioned to me that this time (the 2013 US Open) even if the rains do come again he has a method he's going to try to keep the firm and fast anyway but he told me if I ever told anybody about it he does know where I live and he might have to kill me.

I said:" Do you mean kill me or kill the course?" He just looked at me for a while and with that wonderful laugh of his said: "Whatever."

Why did I know it would be but a day after the 2012 US Open at Olympic when all eyes would start to turn towards Merion East and the 2013 US Open?   

[JESII]

"Figuring out a way to guarantee really really firm greens would be the only way,...."


Jim Sullivan:

And that is precisely what they plan to do.

Did you just guarantee really really firm greens for next years US Open?

[TEPaul]

No, but I will guarantee that is what they are planning to do.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim & TE,

The best laid plans o' mice and men.....................

Mother Nature will have the last say regarding the conditions at Merion.

At what point does a medal play competion go from challenging conditions to goofy conditions in an effort to accomplish one goal, the protection of par ?

[Mark Bourgeois]

This 'slider' thing is revolutionary. It makes comparing courses then and now easy and clear.

For example, looking at the fw widths on 2 and 5, the 2012 corridors are less than half as wide as they were in 1937.

Bob

Bob, the revolution won't be televised but it will be photographed.

It is interesting and appropriate that in the HTML code, these applications are one of a type known as a "container." They're just containers that hold whatever images we put in them. Right now it's aerials that increasingly are available free or cheap online, but they just as easily could be images of blueprints, maps, or ground-level photos. If I can get the correct POV and camera settings then take photos of Pinehurst #2 for example, we might be able to settle once and for all whether the greens have been built up via maintenance practices.

I'm sure there are plenty of applications I haven't comlnceibed yet, not to mention topics. I am all ears.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Jim & TE,

The best laid plans o' mice and men.....................

Mother Nature will have the last say regarding the conditions at Merion.

At what point does a medal play competion go from challenging conditions to goofy conditions in an effort to accomplish one goal, the protection of par ?

I agree that protection of par may be difficult and I'm not sure that would be my goal if setting it up BUT I know it will be,  has to be i guess.  As was pointed out there will be a great number of very short shots into greens and if the fairways are narrow with high rough it will be dictated to all players to take these shots.  However there are a few chanses on holes like #2 and 10 were the set up could offer an aggressive play for eagle that could turn into bogey or worse if miss played.  To me that would be interesting to see but it the opportunity is not clear enough these guys won't take it.   (example):

Look at what every one of them did on 18 at Olympic on Sunday.  They all got up there and hit the same tee club as they did the previous three days.  Not one of them though or tried to hit the ball far enough up the hole to reach the up slope which would have helped them on the second shot to the front hole location.  What if the fairway widened out after the valley up to the green? 

I think Merion is going to be very similar to Olympic in that there will be very few drivers hit in the round. I think this is OK.  Weather or not the winning score is +1 or -5 all most people really want is a finish with great drama.

[DMoriarty]

I don't know how to do the cool sliding overlay like Mark, but I thought these side by side then combined photos of the 18th were particularly telling.   The first is the 18th at the 1930 Amateur, the second is an oblique off of Google Earth with bunkers in yellow for reference, and the third is a slightly larger overlay of the first  two with everything but the fairway green and bunkers removed from the modern.  It is very difficult to get the exact same perspective but this is fairly close.  

 Hard even call this the same hole, isn't it?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

"They keep getting narrower and narrower and are NEVER returned to their original or earlier widths."

Pat:

That would not be wholly correct with Shinnecock.

It is "wholly correct",

Please read or reread my post.


While the fairways may never return to their original widths which was app. 50 plus acres, they did return them from their 2004 US Open widths that was in the mid-20 acre area back to the mid-30s which was what they were before their narrowing for the 2004 US Open. It was all preconceived and it was done by sodding in and then sodding back out which is a whole lot faster.

You may not know this, but Shinnecock hosted Opens in 1986 and 1995, 18 and 9 years prior to the 2004 Open.

Actually that would not be wholly correct either with Merion's fairways.

It certainly is.
Only a moron would contradict that statement, especially with the aerial photos Mark and David posted which document and confirm my position.

Are you totally blind when it comes to architecture or just occassionally blind when it's architecture involving Merion ?

[Dan Herrmann]

What they're doing to Merion is like what Jennifer Gray did to herself when she had plastic surgery.  Beautiful girl turned into a typical Hollywood harlet.  What they're doing to Merion borders on being a travesty.

(Honestly, I thought that the fact that it's on the National Register of Historic Places would have helped to prevent this disfigurement)

And I LOVE Merion.  If I feel this way, I wonder how folks that don't like her feel.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan,

I think everyone loves Merion.

The problem is that some superstars just don't know when to retire gracefully.

At what point do you discontinue disfiguring the golf course ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Regarding your #21, your are just completely incorrect and off base.

Don't forget, Wayne and I have been collaborating with Shinnecock as their historical consultants (basically Flynn based) for well over a decade. We have been there throughout that entire time speaking to them about what they were doing before the Open, after the Open and right on up to now. We even presented them with a Flynn historic restoration proposal that they have followed piece-meal and slowly and appear to continue to follow. We know about it all and were involved in a number of things they did and you most assuredly were not.

Don't make a fool of yourself, Pat----as Mammy said; "It ain't fittin,' it just ain't fittin."


What the Hell is it with you Patrick? Why is it you have this penchant to act on here like you know some of this stuff you clearly do not know? You weren't there with us and you obviously know very little about what we did with Shinnecock and perhaps still do.

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