[John Kirk]

Tony,

Already on page 3, but here is the link again:

"The Genius Of The Masters, By Design", by Tom Doak.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47931.0.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

I don't think Chris ever claimed it was the 9th Fairway.  

And although the fairways weren't shared, players used to hit from 9 tee to the 1st fairway to get a better angle into the 9th green.  
I find that hard to believe as there was a good amount of tall trees in between both fairways, and, I'm not so sure that playing down # 1 fairway would give you a better angle into that green.  It  may have made the hole play shorter, but that play might be more fraught with risk rather than reward.

Just look at the size of those trees in the top photo.
Those aren't newly planted

There's a great early photo of Jones putting on # 9 green and you can see the stand of those tall majestic trees with the newly planted trees down the slope closer to the green.

Trees were planted to eliminate that possibility.

I'm not so sure about that.

Remember, the land ANGC sits on was a tree nursery

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

I don't think Chris ever claimed it was the 9th Fairway.  

And although the fairways weren't shared, players used to hit from 9 tee to the 1st fairway to get a better angle into the 9th green.  
I find that hard to believe as there was a good amount of tall trees in between both fairways, and, I'm not so sure that playing down # 1 fairway would give you a better angle into that green.  It  may have made the hole play shorter, but that play might be more fraught with risk rather than reward.

Just look at the size of those trees in the top photo.
Those aren't newly planted

There's a great early photo of Jones putting on # 9 green and you can see the stand of those tall majestic trees with the newly planted trees down the slope closer to the green.

Trees were planted to eliminate that possibility.

I'm not so sure about that.

Remember, the land ANGC sits on was a tree nursery

Pat:

You're wrong on every count (on this one I'll let you argue it out with Ron Whitten).  

1934 - 420 yards - The original green was a MacKenzie horseshoe shaped specialty with a large, natural shape bunker guarding the front.  The openness of the course allowed players to drive down the neighboring 1st fairway on the left to achieve a better angle to the green.

1956 - 420 yards - Perhaps because the cluster of bunkers kept getting less fearsome (one was removed in 1939, another by 1951), some competitors continued to play down the first fairway.  A string of trees was planted just off the front-left edge of the tee to stop this practice.

Something to think about, the club would transplant mature pines where needed. 

Take a look at the 1st and 9th fairways in this picture (top of the photo).  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

I don't think Chris ever claimed it was the 9th Fairway.  

And although the fairways weren't shared, players used to hit from 9 tee to the 1st fairway to get a better angle into the 9th green.  
I find that hard to believe as there was a good amount of tall trees in between both fairways, and, I'm not so sure that playing down # 1 fairway would give you a better angle into that green.  It  may have made the hole play shorter, but that play might be more fraught with risk rather than reward.

Just look at the size of those trees in the top photo.
Those aren't newly planted

There's a great early photo of Jones putting on # 9 green and you can see the stand of those tall majestic trees with the newly planted trees down the slope closer to the green.

Trees were planted to eliminate that possibility.

I'm not so sure about that.

Remember, the land ANGC sits on was a tree nursery

Pat:

You're wrong on every count

How would you know ?

 (on this one I'll let you argue it out with Ron Whitten).  

It wouldn't be the first time.
He wrote that Jasna Polana a modern day Winged Foot and I challenged him on that assessment, and others in his article.
Your problem is that absent first hand experience you accept the word of others as the Gospel.
You have no context in which to judge statements and responses
Those tall trees were there from the beginning.
More were added over time

1934 - 420 yards - The original green was a MacKenzie horseshoe shaped specialty with a large, natural shape bunker guarding the front.  The openness of the course allowed players to drive down the neighboring 1st fairway on the left to achieve a better angle to the green.
You could play 18 by playing down 10, but that doesn't mean it's the Preferred or prudent way to play the hole

1956 - 420 yards - Perhaps because the cluster of bunkers kept getting less fearsome (one was removed in 1939, another by 1951), some competitors continued to play down the first fairway.  

Which players ?
And, did they do it intentionally

A string of trees was planted just off the front-left edge of the tee to stop this practice.

Something to think about, the club would transplant mature pines where needed. 

Take a look at the 1st and 9th fairways in this picture (top of the photo).  



Take a closer look.
Now tell me, circa the date of the photo, where drives would end up, on both # 9 and # 1.
about equidistant off the tee ?
Then look at the shot into the green.
Also look at the narrow gauntlet a golfer would have to drive through if he drove down # 1 and also consider the angle that the ball would be coming from off the 9th tee in relationship to the corridor of trees he"d have to play through with his drive coming down # 1.
You're also forgetting about the huge bunker in the 1st fairway.  Why risk getting in that bunker, especially when the golfer on the 9th tee would be aiming at or close to it.
Note, in the picture you posted, how open and unthreatening the DZ is on # 9.   It's wide open.  No fear of trees or bunkers, and the pronounced downslope acts as a TEPAUL turboboost.
Prudent golfers wouldn't take the route you support as "the" Prefered route

Again, your problem is that you have absolutely no first hand experience at ANGC, no concept of the terrain and the spacial and angular relationships, yet you hold yourself out as an authority based solely on your interpretation of the words of others

Are you familiar with the slope of the land at the 9th green

[Sven Nilsen]

David Owen's words: 

"At the same time, additional trees were planted on the left between the new tee and the members’ tee, to eliminate the possibility of tournament players’ using the first fairway as an alternate driving area."

You, on another thread:

"SN:  Any suggestions on the best books to look into?"
"PM:  Yes.  The Making of the Masters."

Now I'm confused.  Are you telling me that you are contradicting the words of the author of the book that you recommended I read about Augusta?  Either you're some kind of weird supernatural creature that can't survive unless you meet your requisite number of argumentative comments a day, or your advice on reading materials is seriously flawed and unreliable. 

Get it right, Patrick.  And if you want to take a crap on someone's thread, go do it elsewhere.

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Owen's words:  

"At the same time, additional trees were planted on the left between the new tee and the members’ tee, to eliminate the possibility[/I] of tournament players’ using the first fairway as an alternate driving area."

"POSSIBILITY"

You, on another thread:

"SN:  Any suggestions on the best books to look into?"
"PM:  Yes.  The Making of the Masters."

Your logic and/or attempts at reasoning are seriously flawed.

Just because I recommended a book doesn't mean everything in it is perfect or accurate.

I also recommended Finegan's book on Pine Valley even though it contains a number of errors.

Again, your lack of first hand knowledge leads you to rely, indiscriminately, on the words of others.
Compounding the problem is your attempt to interpolate what you've read to suit your purpose.  

Now I'm confused.  
Are you telling me that you are contradicting the words of the author of the book that you recommended I read about Augusta?  Either you're some kind of weird supernatural creature that can't survive unless you meet your requisite number of argumentative comments a day, or your advice on reading materials is seriously flawed and unreliable.  

Of course you're confused, and horrible at logic 101.

Why wouldn't I take issue with statements made in a book that I was asked to suggest.
Just because I recommend a book doesn't mean that I deem it flawless.
I also recommended Finegan's book on Pine Valley to you, knowing that it contained errors.
However, it remains a good book in terms of providing you with a history of Pine Valley.
Ditto David Owen's book.

In addition, David Owen phrased the planting of trees with an implied caveat, the word "possibility".
He never stated that players played down the 1st fairway, beaning the golfers playing # 1 and the gallery, did he ?

Get it right, Patrick.  

I got it right.
You're the one who doesn't have a clue.
You simply don't know what you're talking about and are merely parroting the words of others, taking every word as the "Gospel"

And if you want to take a crap on someone's thread, go do it elsewhere.

If you think you can make uninformed statements and not be challenged, you've come to the wrong site.

But, let's go to the important issues.

I asked you to look at the photo YOU posted.
I asked you questions about that photo and you refused to answer them.
WHY ?
Because you don't know the answers, OR because the answers completely undermine your position.

You ask me a question and I answer it.
I ask you a question and you avoid it or try to divert away from it.

Try being intellectually honest when engaging in discourse.

Here's the photo you posted.   Try answering the questions without help from the peanut gallery.

[Sven Nilsen]

Okay Patrick, I'll play along.

Just so we don't miss anything, lets slow this down to one question at a time.

Is this the area of the course we are discussing?

[JR Potts]

The Masters app, produced by Augusta National, discusses people driving it down the first hole...thus necessitating a change in the green and planting of trees.

Now they could be wrong...but I chalk that up to an admission.

[Sven Nilsen]

QED.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

If you don't know the area you're discussing, why do you keep typing ?

JR Potts,

You do recall that the Merion Website claimed that Wilson sailed to Europe and studied the great courses around 1910 don't you ?
Or that the officially sanctioned book on Pine Valley contained errors.

I also know what the official story on Ken Venturi's last round pairing was.
Fortunately, in the USGA library, with only two people in the room, I had a lengthy, one on one conversation with Bryon Nelson about that event and am prepared to accept Mr Nelson's account over all others.

Imagine, with golfers playing # 1 and galleries following them, someone playing down # 1 from # 9.
Secondly, look at the photo and tell me the advantages off the tee versus the disadvantages.
It's not a prudent route.

Did you know that Ed Furgol, in winning the U.S. Open at Baltusrol, when playing the 18th hole of the Lower course, played the 18th fairway of the Upper course ?

Do you know how it happened ?  

[Sven Nilsen]

You didn't answer the question.

Assuming we agree that that photo depicts the 1st and 9th fairways (and the area in between) as it existed in the mid-1930's, please point out the trees that were always there that would have prevented a drive to the 1st fairway.

[Sven Nilsen]

I'll answer it for you.  They weren't there.

It was possible, and players were acting on that possibility.

I've marked the following photo and schematic to show the two lines of play (these are rough sketches, but however you want to draw the lines it works):





The landing area for this shot would have been in the widest part of the 1st fairway, past the fairway bunker (you can do the math and figure out an approximation of how far the bunker would have been from the 9th tee).  Take a look at the third picture that Chris posted.  You can see the downhill nature of the land on both sides of the trees.  The turbo boost would have been in effect for a drive to either fairway.  Now look at the schematic.  The angle of attack to a left pin is a lot better from the 1st fairway.  You wouldn't want to hit in to a right pin from that spot, but with a left pin the 1st fairway did offer an advantage.  

To prevent this strategy, the club did two things.  First, they had Maxwell redo the green, adding bunkers on the left side that would require a carry for any shot from the 1st fairway.  As noted, the scale of the bunkers changed over time (one being removed), making the shot from the 1st a bit easier.  As a second measure, the club planted trees to the left of the 9th tee in an attempt to block the clear line to the 1st fairway.  These trees, and additional trees, now make up the wide swath of foliage that can be seen in Chris' third photo.

[Sven Nilsen]

One last go, using an overhead photo:



The red lines indicate the angles from today's tee.  The blue shows the lines of play from the old tournament tee (approx. 40 yds shorter than today).  The oval is meant to delineate the area that may have contained trees in the 1930's.  Even if you move that oval back closer to the tee, there is still room to attack the 1st fairway.

[Howard Riefs]

Picture-perfect (pun intended) for this thread...

Illustration of how each hole has changed through the years.

http://www.fastcodesign.com/1669422/100-ways-augusta-changed-to-make-the-masters-harder-infographic

(See the slideshow on top of the page)

[Sven Nilsen]

Howard:

Awesome find.  Just to clear the air, the "Sven Grothe" that commented on the webpage in the link is not me.

[DMoriarty]

Perry Maxwell appears to have had a major and lasting impact on the course, especially on the greens.  Did any other architect leave his fingerprints on as many great courses as Maxwell? 

[Brett_Morrissy]

Sven,
Quick question: has the turf type been discussed on this thread - that is, what it is today - ?, and how it compares to previous - some of the images on todays telecast had some of the FW turf looking synthetic, it had that half glistening half matt look.
What is the green turf - form of bent?

[Sven Nilsen]

Brett:

From what I understand, the course initially was all bermuda, but they changed the greens to bent (Pennlinks and Penncross) in 1981.  They also aggressively overseed with rye.

I believe there was a bit of controversy surrounding the change-over focusing on the new speeds obtainable with bent and how it would play with the massive contours on the greens.

A little while back I read an article (not sure if I linked to it in this thread) about a guy who snuck a water sample from one of the ponds.  When tested, there was no indication of any chemical runoff, suggesting that what you see on television is very natural.

Hope this helps, there are probably some other folks around here that know the particulars.

Sven

Edit: Ironically, you might want to check out this article from Australian Turfgrass Management:
 
http://www.sodsolutions.com/pdf/InsideAugustaNational.pdf

[Patrick Kiser]

Sven / Chris,

I've enjoyed this thread tremendously and it compliments Daniel Wexler's version nicely.  A lot of good material here.

Even with all the changes over the years, I still say the 13th is my favorite hole on the course.  The natural use of the creek is pure genius and if I didn't know better ... I'd say this was Max Behr at work.  Behr was certainly friends with the old Doc and I wonder if some of Behr rubbed off on him for this hole.  I think a strength of Behr was knowing how to take advantage of natural streams and bringing them into play in a risk/reward fashion.

The other thing is you see more restraint in the bunkering when compared to say the CA work.  How much of that was because of Bobby Jones is unknown to me, but I certainly notice it.

Thanks for posting and sharing guys.  Great stuff.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

Two questions for you.

WHY would a golfer intentionally choose to play a riskier tee shot down # 1 only to be faced with a far more difficult approach shot into a green that slopes severely away from them, versus playing a safer tee shot down # 9 to a green that slopes, like a back board, facing into them ?

Did you see Tiger's chip on Friday from slightly above the green, from the approximate angle you'd come in from on # 1, and how he couldn't hold the green anywhere near the hole ?

I'll answer it for you.  They weren't there.

It was possible, and players were acting on that possibility.

I've marked the following photo and schematic to show the two lines of play (these are rough sketches, but however you want to draw the lines it works):





The landing area for this shot would have been in the widest part of the 1st fairway, past the fairway bunker (you can do the math and figure out an approximation of how far the bunker would have been from the 9th tee).  Take a look at the third picture that Chris posted.  You can see the downhill nature of the land on both sides of the trees.  The turbo boost would have been in effect for a drive to either fairway.  Now look at the schematic.  The angle of attack to a left pin is a lot better from the 1st fairway.  You wouldn't want to hit in to a right pin from that spot, but with a left pin the 1st fairway did offer an advantage.  

To prevent this strategy, the club did two things.  First, they had Maxwell redo the green, adding bunkers on the left side that would require a carry for any shot from the 1st fairway.  As noted, the scale of the bunkers changed over time (one being removed), making the shot from the 1st a bit easier.  As a second measure, the club planted trees to the left of the 9th tee in an attempt to block the clear line to the 1st fairway.  These trees, and additional trees, now make up the wide swath of foliage that can be seen in Chris' third photo.

[Sven Nilsen]

I've heard the famous Olmsted Plan for Augusta discussed many times, but have never seen it posted here on the site.  I came across this image today, and wanted to append it to this thread.

[Jim Nugent]

I also know what the official story on Ken Venturi's last round pairing was.
Fortunately, in the USGA library, with only two people in the room, I had a lengthy, one on one conversation with Bryon Nelson about that event and am prepared to accept Mr Nelson's account over all others.

I'd like to hear Nelson's account.  Can you tell us? 

[Howard Riefs]

Real nice overhead shot of the property. (Caught this photo on Masters.com upon confirming the anticipated status of my ticket lottery application...)




http://www.masters.com/en_US/index.html

[Howard Riefs]

Jack Nicklaus discusses the course changes at ANGC, specifically holes #1, #7 and #18

"The changes were necessary to keep pace with today's game. It was a good course then, and it's a good course now. They've done a very good job."

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/jack-nicklaus-augusta-national-course-changes-masters

[Jim Nugent]

Jack Nicklaus discusses the course changes at ANGC, specifically holes #1, #7 and #18

Jack says the greens today are mostly as Mac/Jones designed them.  Is he right?  Seems like a lot of the greens have changed dramatically over the years, changing not only the putting but the approach shots to them. 

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