[Angela Moser]

Good morning GCA,

I've got a serious question and I'm interested in your opinion:

We all know St. Andrews and the great sacred Old Course with its strategic design. One of the most famous holes - and I think you all agree - is the par-4 17th Road Hole with a risky blind tee shot due to a shed and a Hotel on the right side having a better angle for the second shot into the green or driving to the middle or left side meaning a super hard angle and shot into the squeezed green because of the road bunker in front as well as the road in the back of the green.

Not coming from America, I was visiting Golf Courses there and were interested in the Golf Course Architect's interpretation. Of course I haven't seen all, but beside the original TOC's Road Hole (Tom Morris and David Honeyman) I saw
the 7th at National Golf Links of America (interpretation of C.B. MacDonald),
the 8th at Piping Rock (interpretation of C.B. MacDonald) as well as
the 11th at Old MacDonald (interpretation of Tom Doak and Jim Urbina).

So my question is, what is the best one and why, are there any else you liked? When TOC was build there wasn't a shed nor a hotel... Is TOC's Road Hole the best one or might even be an interpretation better?

I'm looking forward to your answeres...

Angela

[Bill_McBride]

Angela, I've played a few and think nothing comes close!   Like Brian I agree none of the simulated hazards bring the fear of the originals.  I do wish the powers at the Old Course would cut down the rough on the left side so a player over there could challenge the bunkers including the Scholars and Progressing.  Now the only play from that deep stuff is to chop out.   If that were fairway or light rough, you could get in real trouble overreaching.   

When the Road Hole came into being, there was first the station master's garden in the dogleg to be carried, and then railroad sheds long before the hotel was built. 

Angela, welcome to GCA.   Could you post a little bit about yourself?    We have often lamented the lack of female membership on this board!

[Mark McKeever]

The road hole at North Shore CC on Long Island is a very good interpretation as well!  I know that Joe has a bunch of pics, hopefully he puts a few up.

Mark

[Angela Moser]

Brian,

thank you for your answer.

Which other RH did you play? Where?

Well, I really need to say, that I didn't like the National one (although National is such an awesome course), but Piping Rock really feels like it strategy wise, while OldMac has that awesome Scottish look of it (revetted bunker, firm greens, contours, grass). Right now, I would love to combine those two, having a perfect one...

What would replicate that feeling for you? Would you rather copy every element of that hole to have a good interpretation of it? I don't agree with you a 100%, since a different hazard could work as well, but I kind of agree with you that most of the time it doesn't work in terms of feeling the same (bunker=flat and overlookable, hotel=you screwed).

-- You said you liked the Alps template. Did you play the original one at Prestwick? It is sooooooooo different to all the interpretations I saw yet.

[BCrosby]

I have played several Road Holes in the US. They are pale imitations of the original. Ditto for Eden Holes I've seen in the US. They too are weak soup compared with the original.

On the other hand, we have some very good Redans on this side of the pond. I don't have a good explanation for why that is the case.

Bob

[Jaeger Kovich]

Just because a templated version cannot replicate the excitement of standing on #17 on The Old Course, does that make all templates weaker holes? ... I'm not sure, but fun and excitement is everything...

If Macdonald thought they would all end up weaker holes, do you think he (and Raynor, and Banks, and Tom/Jim, etc) would have kept building them, knowing they would never live up to the big brother in Scotland? ... I would guess he probably thought at least a few of them offered at least an equal amount of strategy or excitement or fun that the original didn't otherwise why build something that will always be compared to the original and always come up short?

I've seen around 8 versions of the Road Hole, plus the original, here is my new favorite version: Piping Rock #8


I love the use of the trees to recreate the 3 Dimensional hazard and angle off the tee.. Also I really like how you can see the Road bunker and some of the green shape through the trunks, which I think adds a lot to the excitement, especially for the nerds and beard pullers like myself!



Take note of the size of the trees v me in the picture. Not sure how much of that I want to try to bite off from the tee...


Ground contours, Check!

http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/jkovich34/GreenFront.jpg
Green contours, Check!


Really like the back portion of this green. The bunker is about 4 1/2 ft deep, the only thing we are missing is a little bit more of an extreme collection area in the bunker. There is a lot of movement inside the green, I could have spent an hour putting around if it wasn't for the snow!

[Kalen Braley]

Jaeger,

In that last set of photos, I'm not seeing where the fear of going long is. If anything, going long looks like a nice place to miss with a simple pitch back to the green.

Additionally the green isn't elevated from the fairway making it easier to judge to run a ball in there.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Kalen,

I dont have pictures of the bunkers in the back. The green is slightly pushed up, but no, not as high as #17. Probably more internal contour inside the green though.

Instead of just pointing out what it doesn't have, do you have anything positive to say about this version? It is definitely a great hole, maybe not as good as the original, but really fun and exciting non the less.

[Kalen Braley]

Jaegar,

I wasn't trying to bring the hole down, I was merely pointing out that it seems to be lacking one of the critical components in the sheer terror of the approach shot where anything long or missing green high right is absolutely dead.

That being said, I would love to play Piping Rock one day, it looks like a fantastic course!

[Jaeger Kovich]

Kalen,

I'd love combine Piping with some of the ideas from Old Mac around the green. However, you would really have push up Piping a ton, to use a low mowed chipping area because of the next tee to the right instead of back left at Old Mac.

[Joe Bausch]

Here is the 'road hole' at North Shore CC on Long Island (hole #3):

[astavrides]

The Tribute, a British copycat course in the Dallas, TX area has a road hole knockoff.  Don't remember if it was any good.  I don't remember whether the Royal Links in Vegas does.  There is also the excitement/intimidation factor of playing the 17th at St. Andrews that make the templates pale in comparison.

[Bart Bradley]

The Tribute, a British copycat course in the Dallas, TX area has a road hole knockoff.  Don't remember if it was any good.  

It's not very good.  As I recall they put up a billboard (or something like it) to simulate having to hit over the corner of the shed....

Bart

[Melvyn Morrow]

TOC Road Hole The only one

 

[PCCraig]

The 10th at Shoreacres is a very good Road Hole. The hole is defined well by the driving angle over the gulch/OB on the right and two very good deep bunkers representing the road hole bunker and the road behind.

[Angela Moser]

ok, this post is drifting away to the use of templates, but then let me ask it like that:

what is a template for you?

- Is it a 1:1 copy of a hole (same bunker, green contours, water/burn/trees/sheds/other hazards, up/downhill, strategy)? So, since we are living in a modern and digital world with gps you could scan f.e. Augusta National and built it lets say in China. There is enough heavy equipment to shape it as AN and you plant the same vegetation on the same location etc pp... everything is the same. do you think it has the same feeling? It is a 1:1 copy and still, I don't think you feel as great as you would feel when you stand on the 1st tee on the real Augusta. But then... why - it is a perfect copy, still the same great holes but there is missing the mystery, the history of the sacred course and club.

- (my interpretation for a template) is to use the location as best as possible with all the nature features and ridges. It doesn't matter if there is a road in the back of the road hole (and you wouldn't wanna build one), if the strategy is applicable. So every template is an idea, a concept of a hole which you adapt to the site. Of course there are features in the templates like the sin of valley at the biarritz or the revetted road bunker on the road hole which is part of the strategy and hard to replace by a different hazard, but I agree with Jaeger when he was pointing out the fantastic 3D effect of the trees at Piping Rock. This hole is one of the best interpretations and best uses of the Road hole template I have ever seen. But saying that and seen OldMac last fall, it wouldn't have been making sense to plant trees or building a shed and a hotel on the 11th hole there. Tom used gorse bushes and bunkers to get the strategic and risky tee shot, which makes so much sense in that particular landscape.

A further good example is the original Redan hole in North Berwick. It is blind - you don't see the green, but it's the most copied hole in the world and there is no copy which is actually blind (at least, I never saw or played one as far as I remember). But those interpretations still have some really good stuff in it....

[George_Bahto]

Angela

In the realm of Macdonald, Raynor and Banks, I have seen nearly all they built. NONE are EXCELLENT examples of the TOC masterpiece.

You might want to think about it this way (why the ones they built are not up to the original’s standards).

*   you will seldom get all the “needed” features to best replicate the original; the totally blind tee shot that needs to be played with a pretty high tee ball); the narrow diagonal landing area with various penal problems it you miss the fairway; the blind (from the tee) OB on the right; the wall-hazard and physical road beyond the green. Can you imagine the members complaining about the totally blind tee shot with OB on the right and major probs on the left?

*   I believe the main reason they (Mac-Raynor-Banks) did not built Road holes to the (virtually impossible to reach) level of the original is that there were/are not many private clubs that could handle having a “real”one to be played on the course daily.

   Again to me, this may be the reason they built, what was called Road Holes, "green complexes" that had as many virtues of the original as practicable. Can you imagine the “proper” depth frontal pot bunker on private clubs?  - let alone on a public course.

All this on a virtually unreachable (by most) par-4!!

I have always questioned why most other DOGs (hah dogs?) did not even attempt designing Road hole replications. I have my own ideas but am open to others’ thinking about this.

Just my thoughts

[Kalen Braley]

Angela,

I think the bigger problem when determining what is and isn't  a "template" is trying to get a consensus on which elements are indeed key.

In my opinion, the terror of the 2nd shot that exists on the Road Hole when trying to hit that green in 2, is a key element.  Its probably the number 1 pucker factor of that hole, even moreso than the tee shot over the shed at TOC.

So when we look at Piping Rock, while I agree it captures the essence of the tee shot, it doesn't appear to capture the terror component on the approach. IMO that is a key element of the hole design, and important to incorporate in any faithful template...but for others perhaps thier opinion is different....so its hard to get a consensus.

[Niall C]

George

Very nice post. I think the nub of the issue is how do you replicate the "hazard" that is the road/wall ? I'm not sure whether an exact replica of the road/wall has ever been attempted but I can't imagine it going down well. Out of context ie. 17th hole at TOC, are golfers going to accept it ?

Its the randomness, indeed unfairness of the lies you might get, and the difficulty of the recovery all allied to being so close to the putting surface.

I also recall reading something Darwin wrote about the road hole bunker costing more shots from people playing additional shots to avoid it than those that ended in it. Not sure that makes the Road Hole unique but no doubt the Road Hole bunker ascentuates (?) the penalty of the raod on the other side.

Angela,

I'm trying hard not to be too condescending these days but let me say, nice thread  

Niall

[Joshua Pettit]

So my question is, what is the best one and why, are there any else you liked? When TOC was build there wasn't a shed nor a hotel... Is TOC's Road Hole the best one or might even be an interpretation better?

Angela,

Welcome to GCA.  

I have to side with George and Melvyn on this one, and I'd like to think we are in good company...

Two wise men once opined with regard to The Road Hole:

"The Seventeenth at St. Andrews -- This hole has no rival, even when the going is soft.  Above all others it is a hole that calls for mental agility.  In our opinion it is the finest hole we have ever seen."

Never mind whether or not it is the best within the context of Road hole templates.  The answer is obvious.  A better question might be (perhaps for a different thread):

According to Wethered & Simpson's standard, which holes can be compared and contrasted with The Road Hole on the basis of their strategic merits that require the utmost 'mental agility'?

[Sean_A]

The only blatant copy of the Road Hole I have seen is Dr Mac's work on W-s-M's 15th.  While not as thrilling as TOC's version (what can be?), the hole is very good and very difficult. 

Ciao

[George_Bahto]

The Piping Rock Road hole complex is an excellent one - the diagonal drives was added when the hole was lengthened, the new tee added out in the weeds of was the race course, then we had the dog-legged tee shot and better length was added. It has a great pot bunker - I wonder if Tom can tell us how deep it was when he did the re-do w/ Pete Dye ..................   and, Tom, had sand been added when you dug it out?

The original length of the PR Road hole was very short - some 380-ish without looking it up ...... much to short, in my opinion.

The North Shore green was really nice but the pot bunker was huge and too much out of play to the left of "original’s" positioning

[Tom_Doak]

Yes, George, I did not tell my interns that we added that tee on the hole at Piping Rock when I was doing the renovations for Pete Dye back in 1985.  Before then it was a 365-yard hole, hardly a strong example of the Road hole.  We actually didn't have to build anything, we just put the tee markers out on the old polo field, 80 yards back and to the right of the other tee.

I like the North Shore hole ... you should see it now and tell me if you think the bunker is wrong.  [We didn't move it.]

There is a Road green at Huntington CC that's pretty wild, and I agree that the 10th at Shoreacres is probably the best interpretation of the hole I've seen to date.

I've built three or four versions of it, but the thing we always get wrong is building the green up too high, relative to the approach.  Simpson's sketch of the green correctly shows that the terrace at the front is only 30 inches high ... the approach is higher than the Road bunker or the Road, because the hole is playing downhill.  When you try to replicate it on a flat site -- whether it's in Myrtle Beach or at National -- you are either going to wind up with hazards that are too shallow, or a green that's too high relative to the approach. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Angela,

Don't listen to these bozos, they're predisposed to a patterned answer.

Ask yourself, if a building blocked your view of the DZ from the tee, and the flight of your drive, with OB and more buildings to the right of the fairway and DZ, on any hole a modern architect crafted, would it be villified or deified ?

Would the architect be subjected to malpractice ?

Is there an owner/developer out there who would risk/agree to craft such a hole ?

Where are they ?

What modern day hole has you drive over a building to a diagonally oriented fairway with OB on the right ?

While I feel that the green and how the green relates to play from the drive, is brilliant, one can't view the "Road" hole in a limited context.  The entire hole has to be considered.

Then ask yourself, if someone built a green right next to a path/road with a stone wall immediately adjacent to the path/wall, would they be villified or deified.

Is it not the "quirkiness" of the hole which elevates its stature to such lofty heights, rather than the merits of the tee shot.
If that tee shot existed anywhere else in golf, what would the critics comment ?  Villify or deify ?

For that reason, I prefer the 7th at NGLA when the right side bunker complex served its intended function, prior to high tech obsoleting its function.

So as to remain consistent, as the "road hole' was intended, as a par 5, how does it compare with other par 5 road holes ?

As a par 4, pretend for a second, that the 8th at Piping Rock had a barn/stable/building blocking the view and flight of the drive, with OB all along the right side, how would it be perceived, favorably or unfavorably ?

[Tim_Weiman]

Angela,

No one has mentioned the Cape Kidnappers version of the Road Hole which I believe is worthy of study.

I would never have had the imagination to think of one at that site, so whoever came up with the idea has my compliments.

Both the tee shot and the approach fit the "template", but are really quite different than the TOC original. Unlike the TOC example, at Cape Kidnappers the tee shot is not blind. Everything is clearly laid out in front of you, but it still plays with your head. I believe a shot down the right edge of the fairway is ideal, yet I found myself always bailing out to the wide open area on the left.

The approach shot presents another contradiction. Cape Kidnapper's Road Hole is much shorter, but if anything it is more difficult.

P.S. Hope all is well for you. Let us know how things are going in France.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()