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Mike Hendren

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #175 on: October 22, 2011, 10:47:31 AM »
As I mentioned earlier holes 1 through 8 are as good a stretch as exists in the game.  I'm just not a big fan of the 9th.  I note Ran skipped it in his profile.  The only play is the front right quadrant of the green with long and right and anything left being death.  Ideally a player would run the ball in from the right but for the fact that the hole is severly uphill, thereby thwarting the ground game.  

Also, was it my false perception or does the tee actually slope upward slightly toward the green?

I'm curious if either Mike or Tom, given their intimate familiarity with the golf course would bunker this hole differently.

Finally, is it true that Mackenzie was stuck with this hole when he discovered that he'd only routed eight holes on the front.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #176 on: October 22, 2011, 11:05:44 AM »


Also, was it my false perception or does the tee actually slope upward slightly toward the green?


Mike, this was noted in the visitor's guide book so I believe your perception is reality.

I wonder if this was done on purpose?

Carl Rogers

Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #177 on: October 22, 2011, 02:13:01 PM »
Perhaps a question too delicate to answer in a public forum ....

Has the club been approached or ever been interested in holding a minor USGA event ... ie Senior Amateur  Women, Girl's Am, Mid Am Women's  or Senior Amateur Men's?

How about an episode on Shell's Wonderful World of Golf ... Irwin vs Faldo ??

Every hole deserves its own thread ...

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #178 on: October 22, 2011, 02:17:33 PM »
Perhaps a question too delicate to answer in a public forum ....

Has the club been approached or ever been interested in holding a minor USGA event ... ie Senior Amateur  Women, Girl's Am, Mid Am Women's  or Senior Amateur Men's?

How about an episode on Shell's Wonderful World of Golf ... Irwin vs Faldo ??

Every hole deserves its own thread ...

I believe it has held at least one. Mid-am with Kingsley would seem to make sense?

Brian_Sleeman

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #179 on: October 22, 2011, 03:22:18 PM »
It has hosted the 1991 US Senior Amateur and just a few Michigan PGA events.  Logistics are an issue as the town of Frankfort can't handle a huge influx of people and Traverse City is an hour's drive.

I always thought a Walker Cup would be cool.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #180 on: October 24, 2011, 10:15:22 AM »
one bump for any that missed holes 8/9 over the weekend.  Hole 10 coming tonight.

Morgan Clawson

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #181 on: October 24, 2011, 09:23:32 PM »
After hole #4 Tom Doak said:  "I always tell people on the fifth tee that the first four holes were pretty good, but the next five are like none other they've ever seen before.  And it's true!"

Tom, teach me.

What makes #6 so unique?

How about #8? Is it that all 3 shots are uphill? I guess I can't think of too many par 5s that play straight up a hill.

Thanks in advance.

Mark, bring-on the back 9!

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #182 on: October 24, 2011, 10:34:51 PM »
Hole 10: Par 4, 395 Yards



This is a really tough fairway to hit.  Playing significantly downhill and with an into and from across wind, only a very well-struck tee shot will find this fairway.  Adding to the difficulty is the bay window 5 feet behind the tee that give everyone inside the restaurant/golf shop
a view of your tee ball.






The approach is back uphill with a single deep bunker protecting the front of the green.  The approach playing long adds significant incentive to the player to hit driver off the tee.







Shots landing short of the green will find the false-front that will send the ball back down the fairway some 25 yards.  Not only do balls roll a long way down the fairway, they roll to the right, dead behind the greenside bunker.  There is a significant penalty for missing short, but as the guide book warns, you also have to "avoid going long."




Yet again, there is significant tilt to the green.  This green moves significantly from back-left to front-right.  




From behind.




From 18 tee.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 10:43:28 PM by Mark Saltzman »

Will Lozier

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 10 Posted
« Reply #183 on: October 24, 2011, 10:47:32 PM »
I have to say that the fairway looks artificially narrow, particularly on the left side.  It would seem that taking that mowing line 10-15 yards left might draw players too far left where an approach to that left-to-right sloping green might become tougher...with a hanging lie to boot.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 11:27:12 PM by Will Lozier »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #184 on: October 24, 2011, 11:23:16 PM »
As I mentioned earlier holes 1 through 8 are as good a stretch as exists in the game.  I'm just not a big fan of the 9th.  I note Ran skipped it in his profile.  The only play is the front right quadrant of the green with long and right and anything left being death.  Ideally a player would run the ball in from the right but for the fact that the hole is severly uphill, thereby thwarting the ground game.  

Also, was it my false perception or does the tee actually slope upward slightly toward the green?

I'm curious if either Mike or Tom, given their intimate familiarity with the golf course would bunker this hole differently.

Finally, is it true that Mackenzie was stuck with this hole when he discovered that he'd only routed eight holes on the front.

Mike

Mike:

The big bunker at the back right of the green on #9 was only restored from photographs a few years ago.  When I got to know the course, there was no bunker, just a little grassy trough.  I think I liked the hole better that way, but I don't know why ... just the way I got to know it, I guess.  I surely wouldn't put a bunker anywhere else.

You are right that the tee slopes uphill, significantly so ... I'd guess it's 4%.  It's at least a half club more because of the uphill stance.  And it ramps UP to the forward tee, too.  They talked about leveling it years ago, but they would have to cut 3-4 FEET out of the front of the tee to level it.  I'm glad they didn't.

As for the story about having only eight holes on the front nine, there is no way to really verify it, as all the parties are long gone.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 10 Posted
« Reply #185 on: October 24, 2011, 11:26:14 PM »
I have to say that the fairway looks artificially narrow, particularly on the left side.  It would seem that taking that mowing line 10-15 yards left might draw players too far left where an approach to that left-to-right sloping green might become tougher if you went two far left...with a hanging lie to boot.


I doubt this would have any effect.  Most of the members I know try to play it along the right side.  I don't care if it's in the first cut of rough on the right -- that's still the best play, so you can hit your second shot straighter into the slope of the green.  From the left rough, it's a VERY hard shot to keep the ball on the green; really, from there you should just try to miss it to the right of the green, but if you can make yourself do that, you'd never have pulled it left off the tee to begin with.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 10 Posted
« Reply #186 on: October 24, 2011, 11:34:05 PM »
Would a modern architect ever build a hole like 10 now with no fairway bunkers?

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 10 Posted
« Reply #187 on: October 24, 2011, 11:38:16 PM »
10th hole Crystal reminds a lot of the 10th hole at Hamilton...Crystal is a lesson in simplicity, but similar holes by my eye.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 10 Posted
« Reply #188 on: October 25, 2011, 08:52:14 AM »
I must admit the 10th hole took me a few plays to appreciate.  It's hard not to feel a bit of tension swinging away with a large picture window mere feet away from you but the hole at first never "wowed" me as much as the others.  With each play, I've grown to appreciate the simple subtleties of this hole.

The tee shot must be placed in the proper position of the fairway for the day's pin location.  The angle means everything.  Out of position, hit to the middle left of the green and hope for a good result.  After playing conservatively, you're probably left with a putt moving toward the front right of the green you have no way of stopping.

Simple looking hole from the tee, an exacting hole to walk away with par or better on.

Ken

Mike Hendren

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 10 Posted
« Reply #189 on: October 25, 2011, 09:31:31 AM »
Tom, thanks for that feedback on the 9th. 

I feel somewhat vindicated in my dislike for the hole since there were very few posts discussing the hole, particularly when compared to the stellar comments regarding the first eight.    It even prompted a quasi-hijack as the discussion briefly turned to whether Crystal Downs had ever hosted a USGA championship. 

I'll go ahead and add that the par five 16th is pedestrian, though it works well in the routing to provide a brief respite before the dramatic 17th and under-rated 18th.   

That said, I liked and enjoyed Crystal Downs as much as any golf course I've played anywhere.  It's a Herman Cain golf course:  9-9-9.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 10 Posted
« Reply #190 on: October 25, 2011, 10:38:06 AM »
Firstly back to number nine, which is clearly a very hard hole once you get out of position.
Very little room for error, short or dead really, long or left is certainly a heap of trouble, and chipping to the sloped green is never easy.
I like the hole because of the demands it places on a good shot and sevely punishes you if you get out of position, which nicely segway into number ten which does exactly the same.
Anything left, long makes bogey somewhat inevitable, especially to a front pin.
The day I played the pin was frontish right..this is one of the greens that I dare to suggest has green speeds too fast for the contour of the putting surface.
Three of our foursome putted off the green from inside 20 feet, one of the group three chipped with what appeared to be well played shots, in fact with uphill chip shots...I just thought the severity was a little unfair.
I love the look of the hole from the tee, in fact quite stunning and the green looks so inoccent from the fairway...ooops I was wrong.

Dustin Ferrell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 10 Posted
« Reply #191 on: October 25, 2011, 11:03:07 AM »
9 is a really tough hole in my opinion.  I remember playing it into the wind the 1 time I was fortunate enough to play it.  I hit a laser that I thought was going to be great, only to see it bound into the back bunker leaving a really tough shot coming back.  My playing partners ended up short and right.....on of them even taking a big bounce into the fescue. 

I like my par 3's challenging....you get to put it on a peg...and need to hit a quality shot...but I gotta say...a 3 is a great score on that hole!

I didn't know that some members prefer the right rough on 10....makes sense.  I played from there and hit it to the middle of the green and made a pretty boring par...but found that shot into the green no big deal from the right side.

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #192 on: October 25, 2011, 11:57:44 AM »
Hole 10: Par 4, 395 Yards
Adding to the difficulty is the bay window 5 feet behind the tee that give everyone inside the restaurant/golf shop
a view of your tee ball.

It seems even closer!



Too bad photos cannot capture how terrifying the 10th green is, though Mark's photo from the 18th tee comes close.

Phil McDade

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 10 Posted
« Reply #193 on: October 25, 2011, 12:56:38 PM »
Tom, thanks for that feedback on the 9th. 

I feel somewhat vindicated in my dislike for the hole since there were very few posts discussing the hole, particularly when compared to the stellar comments regarding the first eight.    It even prompted a quasi-hijack as the discussion briefly turned to whether Crystal Downs had ever hosted a USGA championship. 

I'll go ahead and add that the par five 16th is pedestrian, though it works well in the routing to provide a brief respite before the dramatic 17th and under-rated 18th.   

That said, I liked and enjoyed Crystal Downs as much as any golf course I've played anywhere.  It's a Herman Cain golf course:  9-9-9.

Bogey

Mike:

Just getting back to this thread after being gone for a while. The 9th seems somewhat akin to the 11th at Shinnecock under tournament conditions -- really tough, borderline unfair. The 9th certainly looks like a hole with little margin for error. Maybe that's a good thing, because you see it so rarely on par 3s. But this looks to be the very definition of penal architecture -- somewhat out of keeping with what I've seen so far in the course. (The usual big caveat -- haven't played, just judging based on these pictures. I'll defer to those who have played it.)

Brian_Sleeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 10 Posted
« Reply #194 on: October 25, 2011, 01:35:03 PM »
If you think the 9th is unfair, just take 5 or 10 yards off the distance you're hoping to hit it and you'll find yourself with plenty of room short of the green with an uphill pitch (or fringe putt) to any hole location.  You might not make 3 every time but you probably won't make many 5's and 6's - certainly not as many as those who foolishly chase after pins no matter where they might be.  It is a blast to go for the flag on the 9th, but when you make that decision, you have to do it with the knowledge that a poor shot is going to leave you with plenty of work.  It makes a successful shot at a 2 all the more rewarding.

Another often overlooked aspect of the 9th is just how good that green is.  It's one of the most commonly misread greens on the course, and an exercise in putting creatively.  Find the fall line and putt it to that point.  Think creatively and study the entirety of the green to use counter-slopes and have some fun.  On several occasions, I've finished a round of nine holes only to spend another 30 to 40 minutes on the 9th green, finding all sorts of fun ways to putt to various pins.  It's an absolute joy.

I often hear people say the 10th is simple and therefore out of place, but as a few folks have mentioned, it's all about setting yourself up for the proper angle into the green.  And really, no matter where the flag is located, that proper angle is from the right side of the hole whether it's in the fairway or light rough.  I'd also add that shots landing anywhere in the first 10 to 15 feet of the green won't stay there for long.  Grab a wedge.

On the first go around, people often overlook a few holes and say they're pedestrian or out of place with the rest of the course.  I can understand that.  But when you consider a course like Crystal Downs, so much more has to be taken into account.  There isn't an average hole or even an average shot on the property.

Crystal Downs challenges you, not only in how well you can strike a golf ball but in how well you can read and think your way around the course, and how you battle your instinct to go for it in favor of playing conservatively to a safe position.  I'll say that there are several positions you may find yourself where you may see no trouble at first glance, but that extra moment of study and consideration can really pay off.  Know that MacKenzie's design style is often about camouflage and visual deception, and plan on simple-looking shots to have more going on than you might immediately see. 

I can't imagine any course that reveals itself so well over repeated plays, only to consistently give you even more to learn and think about every time.  It's just plain fun.  But probably not as fun if you expect a play-by-numbers experience.  

How boring would that be?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 01:39:59 PM by Brian_Sleeman »

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 10 Posted
« Reply #195 on: October 25, 2011, 02:36:48 PM »
Brian..
To add to on eof your earlier comments, when I played there I commented to my playing partners that I thought it was a perfect Walker Cup venue..history, great architecture, unbeliveable aurra around the place...perfect.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 10 Posted
« Reply #196 on: October 31, 2011, 09:33:37 AM »
Hole 11: Par 3, 196 Yards




A difficult par-3 that requires a tee ball that stays below the hole.  But, playing some 20 feet uphill and with a false-front, club selection is very difficult.  Anything in the back bunkers is X territory.






The land approaching the green is phenomenal.  Rolling hills that, unfortunately, are not in play.  Wait until 17, though.




The three-tiered green is the only(?) tiered green on the golf course.  If you find yourself on a tier above the pin, good luck.  There is no way to keep the ball on the green from that point.




Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 11 Posted
« Reply #197 on: October 31, 2011, 10:51:22 AM »
Such an innocent looking green from the tee...I managed to three chip here. all of which I considered to be very well executed chip shots from BELOW the hole.
The pin was delicately placed just above the ridge/tier and my ball decided it like it's point of origin more than being near the hole!
I just feel as though the speed of this green is a little too severe for the slope, but just my opinion...from above the hole it really is very difficlut to keep the ball on the green.
Love the look of the hole though, if they could restore the green a little back RIGHT towards the road, then it would be really awesome!!!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 04:28:20 PM by Michael Wharton-Palmer »

BCrosby

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 11 Posted
« Reply #198 on: October 31, 2011, 11:19:59 AM »
Michael -

I had the same experience. I hit what I thought was a pretty good shot to the back edge. I chipped over the green. Clued in that this was one incredibly fast green, my two come back chips rolled back to my feet. I picked up and headed to the 12th tee.

Bob 

Padraig Dooley

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Re: Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 11 Posted
« Reply #199 on: October 31, 2011, 07:32:37 PM »
It's a common feeling amongst better players that if you strike a good shot, particularly with a long club, the following putt should be straight forward enough. The 11th is a great example of the opposite, like so many holes at CD the work is only beginning when you get to the green!!

The tee and green seem to placed in the perfect position.

There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

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