[Peter Pallotta]

I've meant to start this thread for a long while, but hesitated: those who know me know that I haven't played all that many courses, and only one great course -- so my opinion on this is worth little.

But the Par 5th 8th hole at Crystal Downs is one of the very few Par 5s I have ever liked -- and is by far the best I have ever played.  

I can't explain why exactly, but at every moment and on every shot and chip and putt, I KNEW the first (and only) time I played it -- and as it was happening, in real time -- that this was a GREAT golf hole.

I don't remember ever having that experience before or since -- not even on Crystal Downs itself; which by that standard means I think it the best hole on the course.  Yes, I think that's true - it's the best hole on the course.

From the right tees, the length seems to me just the right length for a Par 5; the dogleg seems to be just the right angle; the uphill-ness of the second (and third shots) and the rumpled fairway add something special I can't quite define; the small but great green and surrounds fit just right with the hole, and would be a fine green/surround on just about any hole, anywhere; and the strategy-demands-beauty-naturalness equation and balance seems, well, perfect.  

There are many holes at CD the give you choices and are lovely and interesting and challenging etc, some much more overtly so -- but only the 8th is perfect in my mind.  

I know I'm not saying anything new or surprising when I say the 8th is a great hole, but I don't believe that it can be praised nearly enough.

As I say, I haven't played all that many courses, but I have read about quite a few and looked at pictures and read histories  of the great ones past and present -- and while today's architects excel in Par 3s and 4s, I just have not seen or read about anyone who has produced such a great Par 5.  

Anyway, my thoughts for what they are worth. I wish the 8th at Crystal Downs could become a 'template' and encourage architects to look over sites with an eagle eye seeing if they could find the topography by which to replicate it.  Actually,I don't wish that, or that it be replicated.

Do you gents who've played it know of any/many Par 5s better?

Peter

PS- I bogied it. I hit a good drive (for me), and a very good second, and had just about 80 yards left from a good lie and a wedge in my hand and I kept staring at that green and getting nervous and I pulled my wedge 10 yards left, and barely mucked it out, and hit a mediocre first putt but a good second putt. (I can't remember how I played any other hole on the course).

PPS - You know, it may simply be the best golf hole of any kind/par I have ever played.  I suddenly have a new appreciation for the sheer JOY many of you gents must have at the memories of the many great holes/courses you've played.  No wonder you guys love gca.

[JC Jones]

The esteemed Mr. Pallotta,

There are several great things about, perhaps, the greatest Par 5 in America.  I find the dog leg interesting because it doesn't really affect the strategy of the hole (except for the really long hitters who might be able to crest the knoll). 

To your template question, I don't think it is possible with #8 at CD because the hole's greatness is largely based on the lay of the land (though I understand that maybe the ridge was manufactured by Maxwell?).  I'm not sure you could replicate it.  The closest I've seen is #9 at Sugarloaf Mountain in Orlando.  It doesn't have a ridge but does have a string of bunkers that play similarly to the ridge.

[Tom MacWood]

Topography that replicates it? That is what makes the hole special, the undulations are unworldly.

How does the 8th hole compare to some of Stanley Thompson's best par-5s?

[John Kirk]

Hi Peter,

I haven't played there for a few years, but I've played it three or four times.  I find the hole too difficult to be consdered a favorite.  In particular, the approach shot is ultra-demanding.  If you mishit it, the ball rolls 30-50 yards backwards down the fairway.  And if your approach shot goes too far, your putt may end up 30-50 yards down the fairway as well.  Voluptuous but tough hole.

One time I was playing with GCA member Eric Terhorst who missed the green perhaps 1 yard left and 3 yards past pin high.  His chip looked perfect as it trickled slowly past the pin, slowly, ever so slowly gaining speed, rolling for what seemed an eternity.  His next shot was a 60 yard wedge shot.

[Tom MacWood]

It is interesting the hole that reminds me most of the 8th is the 8th at Prairie Dunes with its crazy ground movements. Did Perry Maxwell have an eye or did he have an eye and a hand, enhancing what Mother Nature left?  

[Bill_McBride]

From my one round at Crystal Downs, the one thing I know for sure is you don't want to hit a short pull off the tee. Now the hole goes from difficult to impossible!

[JC Jones]

Captain,

Not understanding the dogleg, attempting to chew some off and ending up on Sutter Rd. is also, less than ideal.

[Peter Pallotta]

JC - I think the dogleg/angle serves a very simple and elegant purpose (as oppossed to some bare-chested challenge to 'bite off a much as you dare') -- it ensures that only those who are smarter/braver/better than I was don't end up on the right side of the fairway with an uphill and blind second.  

John K - I think of all the pars, the Par 5s have the most right and reason to be difficult -- and that is, the difficulty actually LESSENS the advantage that a better player has over his less talented opponent.

Thanks for the comments gents.

Peter

[Jim Nugent]

John K - I think of all the pars, the Par 5s have the most right and reason to be diffult -- and that is, the difficulty actually LESSENS the advantage that a better player has over his less talented opponent.

Peter, can you explain your thinking here?  The opposite seems more likely to me. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Jim - this is my experience:

There are NO Par 5s that are easy for an average golfer (such as me).  I am no more likely to halve a Par 5 against a better player than I am any other kind of hole; in fact, I'm MORE likely to hold my own against a good player on a Par 3 or on an average length Par 4 than I am on an 'easy' Par 5.

For the good or very good golfer, on the other hand, there ARE such things as easy Par 5s -- and on those holes the good player is looking for a birdie opportunity.  While an average golfer struggles to string together 3 good shots on any Par 5, including a so-called easy one, the good player is expecting to get there in two at best or to have a very short and simple approach for his 3rd, at worst.

But, on a HARD Par 5, that situation changes: NOT because the average golfer struggles any less to string together 3 good shots, but because now the better player is ALSO struggling.

Look at this thread, for example: I only know JC and Bill and John K from their posts, but I think it's safe to say that all three of them are better and more experienced golfers than I am (even MUCH better).  But like me, it sounds like they ALL found the 8th at CD a challenge; it sounds, in fact, like my bogie would've halved the hole, and maybe even won it.  

In short, Jim -- my experience is that I'm likely to play ANY Par 5 ('easy' or 'hard') in 5 or 6 (or 7) shots, and that it is ONLY hard Par 5s that better golfers are likely to play in the same number of shots.

On hard Par 5s, I have a chance to COMPETE.  

Me and, say, John Kirk might end up playing the 8th at Crystal Downs in the same number of strokes!  That's not the main reason I really like the hole (and I'm sure it's not the reason that it isn't one of JK's favourites) -- but I think it IS one of the reasons that the 8th is a great Par 5.  

Peter

[Adam Clayman]

Peter, I'm with you. The hole has it all. The variety of the undulating landing zone on the drive to the uphill steady climb to the green. It's a world class par 5 on a world class front nine.

I don't see John Kirk's crit as being so much against the hole's design as it against the current green speeds and one persons mis-playing of the hole.

[Jim Nugent]

Peter, I've never seen Crystal Downs.  But based on what I've heard in this thread, I would think the qualities that make #8 hard for the good golfer, would make it even harder for the average golfer. 

Let's say he misses the green a bit long and to the left.  Scratch golfers have trouble keeping it on the green.  Wouldn't that shot be all that much harder for the bogey golfer?  i.e. if real good golfers can't keep their chip shots from rolling off the green, what chance do bogey golfers have, faced with the same shot?  And isn't bogey likely to take even more strokes after he ends up 60 yards down the hill, like Eric Terhorst did?  After already taking more strokes to get there in the first place? 

In general, it seems to me the longer the hole, the more opportunities bogey has to run into problems.  He has to hit more good, long shots.  For scratch golfers the opposite is true.  That's why pro's average 4.5 or even less on par 5s, but rarely average under 3 on par 3s.   

[Mike Hendren]

+1

The only weakness of the 8th is that it is followed by the 9th.

Mike

[John Kirk]

I will clarify that I was not offering a criticism, other than to say it's not obne of my favorites.  I could love the hole, and it still would not be a "favorite".

Peter's explanation of the difficulty of competing with the better player on long holes is relevant and accurate.  Typically, playing from the back tees (longest 6400 yard course in golf), I'll have 100-140 yards in for my third shot.  8-iron off uphill lie to that green is a tough play for me.

I think a similar golf hole is #1 at Sand Hills, with its steeply uphill third shot that rejects short approaches.

[Brian_Sleeman]

Regarding the difficulty for the average golfer vs the scratch golfer, perhaps someone with an expertise in how courses are rated for handicap purposes could chime in.  Aren't the #1 handicap holes typically the longer ones despite their difficulty, simply because it gives the scratch golfer more of an opportunity to separate themselves from the average player (because the par is higher and therefore will consistently require more shots)?  

For example, on the average par five, the good player is likely to make a 4 or a 5 pretty frequently, while the "bogey player" is more likely to make a 6 and maybe a 7, partly because he is making more swings to reach that hole than he is others (and thus given more chances to struggle).  Contrast that with a universally difficult hole, where everyone - scratch and bogey player - are likely to make bogeys, doubles, etc.  Why should a shot be granted when there is less of a chance that the two scores will be different?

Otherwise, going by the opinions expressed here so far, wouldn't a really difficult par three qualify as being the lowest handicap hole?  Think of the 11th at Crystal Downs.  Tough as nails for everyone.

Of course, that said, the 8th at the Downs is either the #1 or #2 handicap hole, mainly because of its length - there is only one other par five, the 16th.  

The 8th hole plays difficult for everyone at the Downs.  For the better player who hits his drive over the ridge and puts the green within reach, it is a very tiny target with nothing but trouble all around.  It's not easy to stop a three wood or long iron on that green from 230+, and as anyone who has played it can attest, there is nothing but trouble if you go long.  Left is also a disaster, and the only place with a somewhat safer miss is front right.  I've seen players go for it in two and end up with an X.

I do get a kick out of scratch players who always play at the hole regardless of the danger.  John, that chip shot you describe from your playing partner probably should have been played at a different angle.  It's one of the things I love about the Downs - even with the green speeds a little faster than they should be, the creative and thoughtful player can still find ways to play safely and avoid those disasters.  

There are several instances at Crystal Downs where you play at the hole by playing away from it.

[John Kirk]

I do get a kick out of scratch players who always play at the hole regardless of the danger.  John, that chip shot you describe from your playing partner probably should have been played at a different angle.  It's one of the things I love about the Downs - even with the green speeds a little faster than they should be, the creative and thoughtful player can still find ways to play safely and avoid those disasters.  

There are several instances at Crystal Downs where you play at the hole by playing away from it.

Eric Terhorst is about an 8-10 handicapper.  Very thoughtful and smart guy.  He played his chip shot about a foot left to right, and executed what he thought was the correct shot well.  It went from "Go in!" to "Slow down!"  to "Uh oh."  to "Oh no."  But what makes the whole thing great is the fact that I remember it.  And of course the fact that Eric weighs six ounces less as a result of having to hike down and hit his fifth shot from the fairway.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jim- I understand what you're saying, and I recognize that course/hole-ratings seem to contradict with what I'm suggesting. You wrote:  "I would think the qualities that make #8 hard for the good golfer, would make it even harder for the average golfer"  -- and I think that's true.  But my point regarding hard Par 5s (including the 8th) is that, if I manage to string three good shots together on a HARD Par 5, my chances are BETTER at halving the hole against a good golfer than they are if I string 3 good shots together on a so-called 'easy' or average Par 5 (because on the hard Par 5 he will likely be struggling too, whereas on the easy/average Par 5 he'd be making a birdie or a very easy par).

Just be to be clear, Jim - believe me, I get discouraged sometimes when I face a hard hole and play it badly and record a very big number; I don't like it much.  But I enjoy a friendly match against my friends, all better golfers than I am, and I find that I can hang in there with them on Par 3s and 4s, but when we get to an average Par 5 I'm more than likely to lose the hole.  Thinking about the 8th at CD last night made me realize that, on that hole at least, I might have more of a fighting chance.

Peter

PS - By the way, thank you for taking the idea seriously enough to debate it.  I can't say that I'm sure it can be universalized, but it is indeed MY experience of Par 5s.  As I said in my first post, the 8th is one of the very few I've ever even LIKED, let alone thought was great.

[J_ Crisham]

I struggle with the lovefest for 8 at CD. Good hole no doubt but let's face it the tee shot and second are ho hum. The 3rd must be precise to a green that is very severe. I was thinking of great pr 5s and 8 at Cd is not in my top 10. To each their own but for my money Ill take 5 and 6 at CPC. 18 at Pebble. 7 at Butler. 9 at NGLA. 16 at Shinny . 7 at Beverly. 1 at RCD. 14 at the Old Course. 17 at Prairie Dunes. Could probably think of at least 5 more hmmmmmm, 16 at Ballybunion, 18th Oakland Hills,1 at Sand Hills, 17 at Cherry Hills, 2 at Peach Tree, Klondyke at Lahinch #5?. Spectacles at Carnoustie, MPCC Dunes8 or 9 I forget the # ,4 at Merion, 7 at Lancaster, 17 at Baltusrol. Lots of very good par 5s out there- no doubt everyone sees something that fits their eye-I just can't see 8 at CD as being better than all of the holes listed. As an aside , I have not listed any holes that I havn't played- if I did I would add 13 at ANGC .      

                                                                                      Jack

[John Mayhugh]

Jack,
I thought the ground contours added a lot of interest to the tee and second shots on this hole. I think of those more than the unforgiving approach.

[J_ Crisham]

John- you have certainly played as many or more of the great courses as I have- do you put 8 at CD in your top 5 or 10 par 5s? No doubt that there is very interesting movement to the fairway but following the stetch of 5-7 it was a bit of a let down for me. Would go as far as saying 1,2  ,3,5,6,7 were better designed holes-pretty high praise! CD is in the top7 of the top60 I've played worldwide.
                                          Jack


John, did any of us par 8 at CD that day? I'm headed back in July for some revenge!

[John Mayhugh]

Jack,
I haven't really ever thought about looking at holes that way (top 5 or 10).  I can easily say that the 8th at CD is in the top tier of par 5s I've played, but I can think of at least 10 others that I like better. 

Hope you get a little easier hole location on 10 than last time.

[Eric_Terhorst]

I do get a kick out of scratch players who always play at the hole regardless of the danger.  John, that chip shot you describe from your playing partner probably should have been played at a different angle.  It's one of the things I love about the Downs - even with the green speeds a little faster than they should be, the creative and thoughtful player can still find ways to play safely and avoid those disasters. 

There are several instances at Crystal Downs where you play at the hole by playing away from it.

Eric Terhorst is about an 8-10 handicapper.  Very thoughtful and smart guy.  He played his chip shot about a foot left to right, and executed what he thought was the correct shot well.  It went from "Go in!" to "Slow down!"  to "Uh oh."  to "Oh no."  But what makes the whole thing great is the fact that I remember it.  And of course the fact that Eric weighs six ounces less as a result of having to hike down and hit his fifth shot from the fairway.

John, methinks you doth flatter me too much, but thank you for noticing my weight loss!  Brian and Adam, though they cut me to the quick, may be correct, though.  The shot was misplayed, perhaps not surprising for a golfer who's played the hole only twice.  I did think my shot was pretty good, but it turned out not be good enough.  You may not recall I also putted off the 18th green that day, causing our host say "You're a slow learner."   

Peter, despite my experience, I agree with you this is a distinguished hole.  First, I like a legitimate 3-shotter that holds a strong interest with each shot.   Second, I love the strong uphill approach and the  small margin for error for the third shot—a 3-shot hole ought to have some mystery or strong challenge required on the 2nd shot or the approach to be worthy of repeated interest.  The guesswork in that uphill shot is something that we “slow learners” get a kick out of every time, I suppose. 

I can think of several par 5 holes I enjoyed that have similar elements.  Donald Ross seems to have been a fan of these, both #7 and #15 at French Lick are uphill par 5s (though more gradual), and Holston Hills #18 has a slight dog left and that strong uphill approach.  Lawsonia’s #13, Kingsley’s #17, and #16 at Bandon Trails come to mind with their uphill-out-of-sight greens. 

As Crystal Downs is one of my all-time personal favorite courses, the par 5s there are too among my favorites.  I'd love to take on #8 again!

[Brian_Sleeman]

Don't worry about it too much, Eric.  I can honestly say I've putted off of every green there with the exceptions of #7 and #14.

It definitely takes experience to figure out the angles, but the fact that you need to approach each shot with the kind of open and creative mind that makes you think about aiming 90 degrees away from the hole to get it close when a straight-forward shot appears to be fine is what I love about the place. 

At some courses, the 90-degree shot appears to be the only way and so pretty much everyone takes it, but at the Downs, you're often fooled into trying the more direct approach.  I've paid that price in my own learning process and walked down many of those slopes kicking myself (including the 8th).

[Padraig Dooley]

Brian, The 8th at CD was one of Tom Doak's untouchables back in the Golf Magazine article in the 80's.

Do many guys reach it in two now? I got the impression that with a good tail wind and some firm conditions, getting to the bottom of the hill with the tee shot was doable, reaching with the second was still a severe test though.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks again, gents.

The idea for this was a little too much 'in my head'.  As mentioned, the 8th is one of the few par 5s I've ever even LIKED (the original title for this thread)....and inside my own head it struck me as very curious that an average golfer like me should choose this hard Par 5 to like so much.   

But as I started typing it all became clear...well, to me at least.   (Funny also that on this august and talented board no one has yet stepped up to say that he/she has bridied it! I wonder of how many other great Par 5s this could be said).

Peter

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