[Matt_Ward]

RJ:

Among all the courses you have played where would you place The Straits ?

Top three ?

Top five ?

Top ten ?

Top 25 ?

Thanks ...

[William_G]

It strikes me that any discussion of architecture begins with the site and ends with what happened. Seems IMHO that we have a waterside location with tons of sand trucked in to create a golf course. This type of creation is contrary to most architectural purists in that it is manufactured in its entirety, albeit it is waterside. There are many other locations where this good be duplicated. So is that type of architecture that we are discussing? A Pete Dye course that is waterside, not a hard and fast fescue bump and run course, it is what it is. Like Chambers Bay with imported sand to fill a gravel pit, not a real fan....I would rather find the golf course in the site instead of bringing it in. Thanks

[Richard Choi]

If we start knocking down course because they "truck in" sand from else where, we are not going to have too many golf courses left. Hell, do you think ANGC has crushed marble laying around everywhere to fill their bunkers?

FYI, the sand from Chambers Bay was used to build vast number of greens in NW. CB didn't have to "truck it in".

[Matt_Ward]

Likely The Straits go into the books for something -- just not what it had wanted to be remembered for !

[Matt Kardash]

.

[Michael Moore]

Keiser has crushed Kohler at his own game.

What's the game? How do you win?

[William_G]

Love the architecture discussion as not all courses have beautiful architecture, however you can still play golf w or w/o great architecture; clearly Kohler is not a golf purist. @ Richard...not sure you understand that filling bunkers with sand is different than bringing in your whole golf course and everything else by truck and then shaping it to look like it was there before. WS brought so much sand in it will now be forever be remembered for ill defined bunkering as it was a manufactured course. CB is all fill, in that it was a gravel pit with a cliff to the water level with a bike path surrounding the edge, then filled at essentially an angle with sand shipped in from Canada. Briiliant idea by the county and a win win for all the joggers/bikers etc..., who used to look down at a big hole. There are few sites that provide the type of elevation changes that Augusta does and that were captured to provide such an excellent golf course. I'm not talking about Subair Systems and all that. Thanks.

[Andy Troeger]

William,
I've read at least a few times how Pete Dye said that most of what they did at Whistling Straits was lower the land by the lake and use it to build up the land farther from the shore. I've never heard mention of trucking in lots of sand. Are you saying that's incorrect?

[William_G]

yes. thanks.

[Tom Johnston]

Disclaimers: 

• Never played WS.  Walked it last Thursday. 
  
• Been playing Lawsonia over 30 years.  Love it (Links).

Reading the other posts on this topic, the key distinction seems to be what the goal of the architecture is.  If the goal is to build a visually stunning course, hard by water, that can hold a major, then WS is right up there with any of them.

If the goal is to build a great course that tests all aspects of your game, that players of a wide range of HCP's can enjoy, that requires thought as well as skill if you want to score well, then look for another course.

Consider #6 at WS - a great test of skill.  But there's no way to go after a pin on the right except from the air.  If the green wasn't soft it would be literally impossible.  The changes to this green since the previous PGA I think make it architecturally worse...

And the par 3's seemed to be too similar in distance as well, though perhaps this change if you play from different tees.

On a positive note, there are some darn good holes - #10 in particular.

And of course I find myself agreeing with Matt Ward and Phil McDade.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

Lawsonia Links is a must play for any golf design junkie.

It has all the elements players of all ability levels will enjoy,

The Straits is a 800-pound gorilla meant to handle the 1/10th of 1 percent of the people who play. No doubt the everyday player can move way forward and play the course at shorter lengths but the design pedigree that made Pete Dye the top architect in the USA for the last 50 years of the previous century is missing. It is the "let's throw everything save the kitchen sink" into the mix. Pete has a name and no doubt Herb K has done well in creating a golf complex that has few peers in terms of course offerings and the like.

The issue for me is that Golfweek -- a magazine that prides itself on understanding core golfers would rate such a layout higher than other more noted Dye designs. It is a fine course but no where near the #3 modern in the USA from the ones I have played.

[Tom Johnston]

Tom:

Lawsonia Links is a must play for any golf design junkie.

It has all the elements players of all ability levels will enjoy,

The Straits is a 800-pound gorilla meant to handle the 1/10th of 1 percent of the people who play. No doubt the everyday player can move way forward and play the course at shorter lengths but the design pedigree that made Pete Dye the top architect in the USA for the last 50 years of the previous century is missing. It is the "let's throw everything save the kitchen sink" into the mix. Pete has a name and no doubt Herb K has done well in creating a golf complex that has few peers in terms of course offerings and the like.

The issue for me is that Golfweek -- a magazine that prides itself on understanding core golfers would rate such a layout higher than other more noted Dye designs. It is a fine course but no where near the #3 modern in the USA from the ones I have played.

Exactly. :-)

[Matt_Ward]

It's too bad the "new" left fairway option at #18 really was not used by the players. The carry and the narrow landing zone provided was just not enough of a temptation for such a play.

I would have loved to have seen a somewhat shorter carry so that players might have taken the route.

Interesting how such an alternate option was not even used at all.

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