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Carl Johnson

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USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« on: August 12, 2010, 02:38:02 PM »
I went to Tuesday's qualifying round to take a look at the golf course, which I'd not seen since the extensive renovation by Ron Prichard a couple years ago.  My amateur observation was that although I liked the way the course had been opened up both on the interior and at places on the exterior, and that it looked like a great championship venue, it would be extremely difficult, maybe not even much fun, for the average club golfer.  Moreover, with the greenside bunkering and contours, I couldn't figure out how the revisions fit in what I had thought was Ross's opportunities for a ground game.

I'm looking for help.  Any observations about the course from either those who've seen (or played) it in person, or on the Golf Channel's telecasts in the afternoon (beginning yesterday, Aug. 11)?

JC Jones

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2010, 02:42:21 PM »
I'm trying to get Ed Oden to stop working so hard and give me a reason to head out to the course tomorrow.  It looks interesting on TV, I'm curious to see it in person.

They claim Ross.  How much of the Ross is still there and have they done any restoration/renovation work?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

jonathan_becker

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Carl Johnson

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2010, 05:32:05 PM »
I'm trying to get Ed Oden to stop working so hard and give me a reason to head out to the course tomorrow.  It looks interesting on TV, I'm curious to see it in person.

They claim Ross.  How much of the Ross is still there and have they done any restoration/renovation work?

JC, if you can get out there, do it.  Free parking at the Bojangles Coliseum, free ride to the course, free entry, great hospitality from the club (of which I am not a member), great golf and a great course.  How many more reasons do you need?

JC Jones

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2010, 06:06:58 PM »
Although I was hoping to go with Ed so he could protect me at Bojangles Coliseum, I suppose I could take the risk and head out there.

You're right though, I really have no reason not to go, if nothing else than to spend a couple hours walking the course and checking it out.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2010, 07:16:52 PM »
Carl, I played it last year with Bill Hall, the head pro, another single digit and a 20 handicapper.  We played the course at about 6700 yards.  It was playable for all of us.  You need to hit it well and straight off the tee because of all the fairway bunkers.  The second shots aren't terribly demanding but the greens require good touch and lag putting.  I'm not sure I'd say it was great fun but it certainly is very good.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Carl Johnson

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2010, 08:01:57 PM »
Although I was hoping to go with Ed so he could protect me at Bojangles Coliseum, I suppose I could take the risk and head out there.

You're right though, I really have no reason not to go, if nothing else than to spend a couple hours walking the course and checking it out.

A.W., Go.  No protection should be necessary.  Classic risk / reward.  Reward far exceeds the risk in this case.  I'd say to get out asap, as the matches decrease by day, and the "crowd," such as it may be, would increase by the day.  Carl

Ronald Montesano

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2010, 09:38:59 PM »
The Bojangles Coliseum!!!  That's like a temple of sacred cuisine for me.  No trip to North Carolina is ever complete without a trip to a Bojangles...I usually try to find one in the worst part of town, to make it even better.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
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~NCR South
~Springfield
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~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Ken Moum

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2010, 10:12:37 PM »
They interviewed Pritchard today during the telecast, and he said they had lots of old photos and other archival information and did nothing more than restore what Ross had built.

I have no way of knowing the truth, but he sure sounded sincere about the work he did.

I was a little surprised that there were nearly 100 bunkers on it, however.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Matt Dupre

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2010, 10:27:00 PM »
I was at CCC this past weekend for USGA future sites meetings, and was incredibly impressed by the club and the golf course.  I told some folks up here that it was Aronimink on steroids - though I was referring more to the clubhouse.  Ron Pritchard did a wonderful job on the restoration - expanding green sites, mapping bunkers to original aerials while taking into account modern equipment, and stretching the back tees to almost 7,400 yards.  The land has a lot of movement, some great vistas, and there's tremendous variety.

The greens have a lot of movement, and remind me a lot of Aronimink's in terms of size and the chipping areas.  I'd certainly say it stacks up to Quail Hollow.

Overall just a very impressive experience - and their organization for the Women's Amateur is equally top-notch.

Ed Oden

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2010, 11:42:59 PM »
Jas...uhm...AW, sorry my work schedule is interfering with your life of leisure.  In the future, I will try and do a better job of making myself available.  The good news is that access is free this week.  So whoring is not necessary to get inside the gates, but likely still an option on several street corners on your way to the club.

Carl, I find CCC to be a fascinating design.  In my heart, I don't believe it is a particularly difficult course.  Yet I almost never play well there.  I'm not naive enough to think that is pure coincidence.  While the individual shots required do not seem unduly demanding, there is often an awkward quality about them that is disconcerting.  Have you ever played a course where every shot is between clubs or sets up for a different shot than you want to hit?  For me, Charlotte is a place that is just very difficult to get comfortable at.  I used to think that suggested weakness.  But now I realize it is a testament to strength.

Steve Kline

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2010, 12:21:57 PM »
I've found it quite common to not play as well as I think I should on Ross courses. They usually don't look that hard to me but the score rarely materializes.

Art Roselle

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2010, 04:58:38 PM »

Here is a thread from a few years ago about the greens at Charlotte and the restoration work that Ron did.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34170.0/

In one of my replies, I included some of Ron's comments which I have re-copied below.  I am very biased in favor of Charlotte CC, but I really think that Ron did an exceptional job and the bunkering and greens really make the course.  We know that the bunkering is true to Ross's vision because he had photos from that era to guide him, but I tend to think the green contours are too.  I think that a lot of what makes a "Ross green" has been lost and misunderstood through the years, since so few courses have been maintained in their original state.  Greens have gotten smaller and flatter and lost a lot of their original character.  I also think that Pinehurst #2 has given a somewhat false impression of what Ross greens are supposed to look like.  The greens at #2 have changed quite a bit over the years.  I am not a Ross expert, but I imagine that original Ross greens were bigger and had less of a crowned look than most of the ones you see today.  At both Aronomink and Charlotte, Prichard tried to go back to what he thinks the original look probably was.

Right or wrong, the greens are great and really make the course more challenging and fun than it was before.  Like all Ross courses, the routing is great with no really weak holes and no two holes that feel or look the same.  Now I am drifting into biased opinions so I will stop.

The Women's Am has been a fun event .  I think the players have really enjoyed the course and it has played tough but not impossible.  Medlist was -6 (three-way tie) and the cut was +7.



Ron Prichard on classic architects and greens

"In particular, the one truth was that they all built interesting and challenging putting surfaces. To me that’s sort of the cornerstone of really good golf architecture. Showing some great creativity... And so a problem we run into today is when we continue to improve turf grasses, species, so that we can mow them down to a tenth of an inch and less, we begin to establish a condition where we now have to start altering the architecture of some of the great old greens. So we moved a step forward, according to agronomists, or many steps forward, and we’re moving leaps backward in golf course design.

With the new golf courses today, you watch tournament play and guys are putting balls from 50 and 60 feet away and there’s a three inch break. You never find that on a great old golf course. Never...Think about the 18th hole at Augusta. Sometimes the best way to putt the ball is uphill and hope it goes in the hole when it comes back downhill past you. There are many things that have been lost in golf architecture, and some of these things I hope to write a book about myself. But that’s certainly one of the cornerstones: that a lot of architects today don’t know how to design good putting surfaces."

On Ross's approach and drainage

"The first green is a good place to understand how Ross approached the design of a putting surface. If a player was approaching with a high lofted club, Ross would insist they place this second shot close to the pin to have any chance at sinking the initial putt. When working on the contours of a putting surface, an architect is always studying where you take the
water off the green. From a playing standpoint, this is a critical consideration in determining which way a putt will bend. Because of these drainage requirements, it predisposes the architect to separate different sections of the putting surfaces from other portions so you capture water and take it north, south, east or west.

One of the things that Ross did which architects rarely do today is take water from the putting surface into a bunker. I’m not at all reluctant to do that, because Ross did it. If the bunker is designed to drain properly, then you can drain a portion of the putting surface into the bunker itself.

Another question is how to separate one portion of a green from another. You do this with a rollover or some sort of a hollow or a ridge. When you create these ridges and hollows and rollovers, you’re addressing the need to take water off the green, but you’re also establishing interesting surface character. In Ross’s day, he relied primarily on surface drainage. Today, a great deal of effort goes into taking water out from beneath the putting surface itself. We use rather porous root zone or seedbed mixture, blended soils that will allow the water to penetrate the green. Consequently, our reliance upon surface draining is not as critical today."

On what he did at Charlotte

"The secondary impact is going to be the character of the putting surfaces, which in some cases are pretty darn difficult. There are no easy two putts unless you’re within 20-25-30 feet maybe at the most. You’re not going to be knocking in any 60 or 70 footers on any green on the golf course. There’s never going to be a 70 foot putt made without glaring luck. There are double and triple breaks.

Ross envisioned golf as two games in one anyway. One game was getting from tee to putting
surface and the next one was the game of trying to get the ball in the hole when you’re on the
putting surface. That’s going to be the scary part. My point of view right now is that the greens are going to be baffling to some people and frustrating to some people, but it’s a great golf course now."



Matt MacIver

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2010, 10:27:20 PM »
I was out there today and thank goodness I wasn't playing - HOT! 

CLT CC is the definition of "greens within greens", and it's where the courses' defense lies.  On several greens if the pin is, say, long left, it's better to miss longer left off the green than to land in the wrong section of the green and risk a three-putt.  I think it's a great members course - you likely will never have the same second shot, or putt. 

I don't know how many spectators they were expecting this week, but today there must have been...200.  Is that normal for a Woman's Am? 

JC Jones

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2010, 10:29:39 PM »
I was out there today and thank goodness I wasn't playing - HOT! 

CLT CC is the definition of "greens within greens", and it's where the courses' defense lies.  On several greens if the pin is, say, long left, it's better to miss longer left off the green than to land in the wrong section of the green and risk a three-putt.  I think it's a great members course - you likely will never have the same second shot, or putt. 

I don't know how many spectators they were expecting this week, but today there must have been...200.  Is that normal for a Woman's Am? 

No PM, no email, no call?  What am I?  Chopped liver?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2010, 11:07:22 PM »
I was out there today and thank goodness I wasn't playing - HOT!  

CLT CC is the definition of "greens within greens", and it's where the courses' defense lies.  On several greens if the pin is, say, long left, it's better to miss longer left off the green than to land in the wrong section of the green and risk a three-putt.  I think it's a great members course - you likely will never have the same second shot, or putt.  

I don't know how many spectators they were expecting this week, but today there must have been...200.  Is that normal for a Woman's Am?  

I don't know what's normal for a Women's Am, but there weren't many spectators (a/k/a patrons) on Tue., when I was there, other than friends and family of the players.  If you look at the website, and the CCC promotional materials, there was a lot of work done trying to promote the tournament.  The operation was first class plus.  Still, in Charlotte, it's a lot of who you know and whose attention you can get, and in terms of the local media, primarily the daily newspaper and the TV stations, the tournament has been barely a footnote.  Right now, if you're not NASCAR or football, you're hardly worth the time of day to the big media.  My sense was that CCC put information out to the big media and expected them to do the work of publicizing the tournament.  What I do not think the club did in the way of publicizing the tournament, and trying to draw fans, was make a heavy push from the bottom up.  By that I mean they did not go directly to where the golf fans are -- the golf clubs and public courses in the greater Charlotte area.  If I'd been involved, I would have made an effort to go directly to the clubs and coures with promotional material inviiting their golfers to come out and see the CCC course and the national championship.  On the other hand, maybe they weren't looking for a good gallery.  Or maybe I just missed it.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 07:47:29 AM by Carl Johnson »

Carl Johnson

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2010, 07:59:06 AM »
From Art Roselle, above, quoting Ron Prichard:

"The secondary impact is going to be the character of the putting surfaces, which in some cases are pretty darn difficult. There are no easy two putts unless you’re within 20-25-30 feet maybe at the most. You’re not going to be knocking in any 60 or 70 footers on any green on the golf course. There’s never going to be a 70 foot putt made without glaring luck. There are double and triple breaks.

Ross envisioned golf as two games in one anyway. One game was getting from tee to putting
surface and the next one was the game of trying to get the ball in the hole when you’re on the
putting surface. That’s going to be the scary part. My point of view right now is that the greens are going to be baffling to some people and frustrating to some people, but it’s a great golf course now."


First, thanks Art for your helpful, to-the-point reply.  Second, what amazed me about the talent at the Women's Am qualifying was not that the women were knocking in those 70 footers, but how many of them were getting their putts through the double and triple breaks and close enough for a relatively easy two-putt.  Clearly, the greens separate the men from the boys.  Whoops.  In this case, the women from the girls.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 08:01:00 AM by Carl Johnson »

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2010, 09:44:16 AM »
I was out there last Sunday with my daughter for a practice round. Her coach was caddying for a player. We walked the back nine. I played CCC about 18 months ago in the dead of winter and I struggled with it's length. Although no player we followed had that trouble in any way. I agree that it compares with Quail, that there are certainly greens within greens, and CCC has run a first class event.

IF Quail gets the PGA or Ryder Cup, does CCC host the Wells Fargo/Wachovia/Charlotte event for a year or something else? 

JC Jones

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2010, 12:12:58 PM »
I just got back from CCC, where I took my 6 year old daughter to the tournament.

I was taken aback by the scale of the place.  The holes, the fairways, the trees, etc.  Everything is very large and and you feel small out on the course.  The routing I felt was superb and took advantage of some serious movement throughout the property.  Lastly, some of the greens are phenomenal.  I was particularly impressed with the 4th and the 12th greens.  There some potato chip like waves and greens within greens.

I'd be curious to see pre and post renovation pictures.  I will agree with Ed Oden that what is out there now is very impressive.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

John Shimp

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2010, 10:02:53 AM »
I was out at CCC during the tournament a lot as well.  It was a great event and I was impressed with how well the women strike the ball and handled the up and over the rise nature of the greens. 

Some interesting comments on CCC so far:

1) i like JC Jones comments on the scale of the place.  Ran Morrissett made a similar comment when he played awhile back marvelling on the topic particularly for a course 4 miles from the center of town.

2) Ed Oden's comments on his belief that it is not that difficult is interesting.  I agree that there is a way to "unlock" the course and play it well.  It just doesn't happen that often.  What it doesn't require is real accurate or long driving.  There are only a couple of holes that are "tight" (2 and 15) and there are few teeing hazards to avoid (OB, lateral creeks, forced carries) which makes it playable to the green for the duffer.  What it does require is good iron play thru the bag with the opportunity to hit quite a few short irons if you drive it well.  What you must be able to do with those irons though is hit them off of uneven lies.  For example, holes 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 13, 15, 16 , and 18 can leave you with a down hill lie and the ball below you feet with certain tee shots.  I've not played many courses with this many downhill/sidehill lie possibilities.  Most amateurs do not play these uneven shots well.  Many are off downhill lies to uphill greens with medium irons (6, 8, 10, 18).  The other thing it requires is excellent lag putting.  When the women got a little tight in their Womens Am matches they started guiding lag putts and 3 putting.  This is hard to avoid at CCC.

Roger Wolfe

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2010, 05:33:13 PM »
I always compare Charlotte to Carolina Golf Club as "double your pleasure."  Greens twice as large.  Contours twice as steep.  Separation between holes is twice as wide.  Trees are twice as high.  It is truly a beautiful place but do you think they could
open up the sightlines a little more?  The oaks are magnificent but I really like to see the holes... not just hit to distant fairways
on the hill.  I realize a lot of the topography does not allow this but my favorite holes are 4-6, 8, 13, 14.  Except for the par threes I can't think of another hole where you can see the green from the tee and plan your angle of approach.

It sure looked great this weekend.  Hats off to the John Szklinski, the superintendent, for keeping the greens perfect during one of the most devastating summers in Charlotte history.  I did see a little wilt on the edges of 12 on Saturday... at least he's human!!

Ed Oden

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2010, 10:02:44 PM »
John Shimp, I probably didn't articulate my thoughts very well.  I didn't mean to suggest that the course isn't difficult.  Rather, I was trying to say that the individual shots at CCC do not appear particularly demanding.  I rarely face a shot there that I think is beyond my abilities.  Yet I routinely fail to pull them off.  I am confident I can play well there.  But I rarely do.  For me, Charlotte is a course where the difficulty is more intangible than tangible.  Personally, I see that as a sign of quality design.

john_stiles

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2010, 10:32:33 PM »

CCC does have a nice sense of scale.  There are very large features with big rolls in the land with the stream cutting through the property.  The trees are very mature, tall, and well limbed.  The stream has been widened in spots, presumably to handle large storm flows, and is presented better than previous version. In most areas,  there is ample space between holes.

The revised 16th is much better in my opinion, and the 17th was not as much improved (as 16th) over the previous RTJ green site.

The previous greens always required good iron shots as well.  The new greens are more demanding in the approach shots.

One unique thing is that there are several greens with rear fall-offs, or small lower shelves that will not hold a ball.

Another nice part of the work is that cart paths have been removed, which is possible given the low number of rounds.  That was such a wonderful surprise.

The overall aesthetics are much, much better after the work in my opinion.


John Shimp

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Re: USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2010, 09:56:08 AM »
Ed,
No offense on the difficulty.  I was just trying to describe why it plays difficult despite appearances.  Lots of ackward approach shot stances and otherwise and tough 2 putts.  Obviously have to have a full recovery arsenal on missed greens too.

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