[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

At least in the CBM/Raynor case, it would seem that CBM at least understood that Raynor needed to make money from this, no?  I presume the same would be true of greenskeeper Flynn if Wilson got subsequent job offers and wanted a trusted hand to build the courses, no?

[Tom MacWood]

Jeff
What projects was Raynor involved with prior to North Shore. To my knowledge Macdonald & Raynor never had a formal partnership.

[TEPaul]

"TePaul,
At least in the CBM/Raynor case, it would seem that CBM at least understood that Raynor needed to make money from this, no?"


Jeffrey:

That is true. Seth Raynor was always considered to be a "professional" in what he did in his entire career in golf course architecture including NGLA. Macdonald was not and he never wanted to be THAT and that is specifically saying in THAT particular context Raynor was never a "partner" of Macdonald's any more than Wilson was ever a "partner" of Flynn's, as Howard Toomey was.

I don't think there is any question at all that Macdonald always did whatever he could to promote the professional golf architecture career of Seth Raynor as Hugh Wilson did with William Flynn-----it's just that neither did it or wanted to do it as their business partner in golf course architecture.

However, in that vein, it is a little sad in how Macdonald seemed to rationalize his way out of taking responsibility for some architectural problems at one particular club and particularly after Raynor died by essentially referring to the problem as something "the engineer" must have been or was responsible for!   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

Whitten says they became partners, but Bahto says CBM retained SR on a repeated basis to build his courses, including prior to 1915, NGLA, Piping Rock, Sleepy Hollow, Lido, Greenbriar, St Louis and a few others.  I suspect all of those were better known than Ravisloe, and I am pretty sure that Raynor was credited as the driving design force for many of them with CBM only involved marginally.

[Tom MacWood]

Jeff
All those projects began before 11/5/1914?

[TEPaul]

Jeffrey:

I hope you see the distinction and point here. If Whitten is implying that Macdonald and Raynor were ever "partners" in some GCA business context (EX. they were partners in a GCA company at any time) then Ron Whitten is simply mistaken. That was never the case with CBM and Raynor anymore than it ever was or would have been with Wilson and Flynn.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

All from 1908-1914, and taken from the Bahto timeline, and including project started, but not necessarily complete, like Lido.  And you can add in Westhampton, Greenwhich, Mountain Lake and Fairfield.

TePaul,

I see the distinction and the probabilty that Whitten was wrong.

[TEPaul]

"TePaul,
I see the distinction and the probabilty that Whitten was wrong."


Thank you, Mr. Jeffrey, Sir. I suppose the next question, to perhaps be taken up and discussed at some point in the future, is whether or not there was or is much importance in these kinds of interesting distinctions of that fascinating time in GCA?

I suppose one interesting distinction which we might consider is that it seems neither of those two (Macdonald and Wilson) as good as they may've been with golf course architecture apparently never actually drew golf architectural plans for anything they were ever involved in specifically creating, despite the fact or perhaps including the fact that they apparently did both draw various existing holes abroad, at one point. Not that that matters all that much but it is probably worth noting in the way that worked at the art or avocation of GCA.

[TEPaul]

It seems that was the case before 11/5/1914 with certainly NGLA but also Piping Rock, The Lido, Greenbriar. As for Sleepy Hollow and St. Louis, GeogieB. would probably know those exact timelines better.

[Tom MacWood]

Jeff
I believe the only courses that Raynor was involved with prior to 11/1914 were NGLA, Sleepy Hollow, Piping Rock and Lido.

[TEPaul]

There's apparently a damn fine historian at the Greenbriar who should know exactly when the Greenbriar project began but I believe Lester George (who did the course restoration) told me the other day that project began in 1914. He also said the place was owned by a railroad back then which makes a lot of sense as a number of Charlie's bigtime friends in golf were some damn large financiers of the American railroad system of that time.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Bahto specfically says CBM also hired Raynor to aid at STL and White Sulfur Spring in 1914.  Again, I only know what I read from the experts and its possible that those didn't start work until 1915, but planning would have been going on.

TePaul,

I think there is an interesting subject at hand in the evolving form of gca contracts and construction methods. I don't know that these affected the product on the ground all that much, but as we have discussed in other threads, before WWI they were all kind of feeling their way in design and particulary in construction and agronomy.  I suspect the contracts were less formal because it was an evolving field.

[TEPaul]

"TePaul,
I think there is an interesting subject at hand in the evolving form of gca contracts and construction methods. I don't know that these affected the product on the ground all that much, but as we have discussed in other threads, before WWI they were all kind of feeling their way in design and particulary in construction and agronomy.  I suspect the contracts were less formal because it was an evolving field."


Jeffrey:

I think this is a huge subject or a potentially huge one of real importance. However, I think I will bring up your remark above on another thread on here where it seems to be more pertinent.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
George has the starting date for SLCC and WSS at 1913.

[TEPaul]

Therefore, if that is true it seems like Raynor did have considerable experience by 11/5/14, or at the very least the North Shore C.C.'s board and administration apparently thought so, hence Steverino Shaeffer's precis of the president of the club's remarks at the annual meeting of March 2, 1916;

"On March 12, 1916, at the Club’s Annual Meeting, the President, Henry Calman, noted that the links were now complete with the exception of some bunkers and traps and that the course should be opening by Decoration Day. He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee."


Calling Seth Raynor the leading architect in the United States seems to me and perhaps to most of us to be a bit of a stretch in 1916 but nonetheless unless Steverino Shaeffer has altered important club documents and the meaning of them or is withholding documents for some nefarious reasons it would seem that is precisely what NS's board thought and said in 1916.

Perhaps we should discuss and debate for 40 pages whether NS's board and what they recorded was lying, engaging in hyperbole or somehow mistaken information.

Frankly, I think we probably should because at this point I've had it up to my eyeballs with just about every club and architect saying every course was going to be one of the best in America and then the club claiming their architect was the leading architect in America. What was it with all those people back then----did they not know they were all lying through their teeth as they engaged in "Legend" making?

I wonder if CBM knew that in 1916 NS thought that Raynor and not him had apparently become the Father of American Golf Course Architecture?

Would you at least go for Raynor 1914-1916 as the Grand Stepson of Golf Architecture in America?

[DMoriarty]

Steve,

Thanks very much for bringing this information forward.  This is obviously the way things should be done.   I'll be interested to see if anyone comes up with anything on Tillinghast's alleged involvement.    

You mention that "the bottom line is going to be what North Shore does with all this information. It's their course."  No doubt it is their course, but bringing out the accurate history is very valuable no matter what they choose to do with it.  

You mention that you think that CBM's involvement was stopping by during construction.   I presume this is based upon the report's description of him as the foremost amateur expert on course construction?   I doubt that this was meant to narrowly paint CBM as the foremost expert on the day-to-day minutiae of building a course.  He was the expert on creating golf courses, and it seems plausible that this is more what the president meant.   Remember that this was pretty early along in the development of what we think of as golf course architecture, and the terminology was still quite awkward.   Remember also that CBM was not a professional designer, so this him even more difficult to describe.  Given that CBM was reportedly not deeply involved in the day-to-day construction of many of his own designs, I doubt he spent much (if any) time on site during construction at North Shore.  

Given how early on this was in Raynor's career, it seems more plausible that he was involved to look over Raynor's shoulder if need be, and make sure he was on the right track.  Bigger picture issues.  

___________________________

Speaking of Raynor and Macdonald, this notion of them forming a partnership is strange.  CBM was an amateur and was doing what he did as favors for friends and for what he considered the good of the game.  Raynor, on the other hand, did this for a living.   They certainly worked together but when they did I don't think it was as "partners" or at least not equal partners, but with Raynor doing the work and CBM calling the shots.  As far as Raynor's independent work goes, it seems that CBM was more of a mentor than anything else.  I may be mistaken about this, but I have never seen anything to indicate otherwise.  

I think we forget that while CBM wanted to see quality golf courses designed and build, he didn't want to have to build them all himself.   It took too much time and personal attention, he didn't want to profit from it personally, and he had many other things to do.   So it seems plausible that North Shore (and many other clubs) came to CBM and he sent them to Raynor, probably giving assurances that he would check over the plans and make changes where necessary.   In fact that is how he reportedly worked except on those few courses where he was personally involved.

Jeff
I believe the only courses that Raynor was involved with prior to 11/1914 were NGLA, Sleepy Hollow, Piping Rock and Lido.

Tom,  Who do you think may have built St. Louis?  (If not Raynor, then have a guess . . . )

[Tom MacWood]

David
I know Greenbrier was initiated in 1915 and I was thinking St.Louis was around the same time frame. I'll have to double check that one.

[Jim_Kennedy]

TMac,
Why does George have them listed as 1913?

Thereis an Oct 1915 article where the writer says that they started the WSS course "two years ago"

[George_Bahto]

The basic chronology was
Ngla
Piping Rock
Sleepy Hollow
St Louis
Greenbrier Resort - Old White
then Lido

first year Raynor was (beginning) Westhampton - CC of Fairfield -  Greenwich

............  then the S _ _ _ hit the fan with new clubs from then on

what happened was that, instead of standing at Lido watching the landfill operation, CB encouraged SR to go out on his own


Macdonald did not have a "company"

I have never seen the word "partner" used between them - "partnership" was later Raynor and Banks (about 6 moths after joining up)


I have an interesting thought.

Recently Tom Doak said he designed/built "so many courses" (not looking up the number right now but I'm sure someone will come up with the number)

Well, at the time of Raynor's death he and Banks had more courses in the construction than Tom has built to date ..... interesting

remember, Raynor "wanted" to be a hands-on guy - that certainly didn't work. He did however have a excellent group of construction foreman ............ (Tony P and I always laugh at the name of one of them:   Rocco Nocco (I think he was the lead guy on the Ocean Links project  for T Suffern Tailer in Newport - 1918-1919)

[George_Bahto]

a thought about these dates:

most "dates" are listed when the courses opened

i built my time line figuring in when the began the course - then to opening date

example: Shoreacres - 1916-1921  began, then interrupted by WWI

CC of Fairfield: began in 1914 thru 1921 ........... although it was one of SR's first courses, there was the World War and a long landfill operation going on      ...................   that's like 8 years, not even counting time spent in contract negotiations etc before work began

[Jim_Kennedy]

TEP,

It probably wouldn't have been a very good idea for an 'amateur' to enter into a formal business partnership with a 'professional' if that partnership was going to profit from golf course work. I don't think CBM would have jeopardized his amateur standing, so he may have requested that NSCC list him as such in any records, or they may have already seen the potential problem and did it as a courtesy.


Raynor's being described as the "....leading architect in the United States" or  "The World's Most Distinguished Golf-Course Designer" as the title of a later article read, was probably due to the extremely high quality of his work, done for the most influential people of the era at what were to become the leading golf clubs of the day. I don't think there is anyone else of that era whose client list is the equal of his.

[DMoriarty]

David
I know Greenbrier was initiated in 1915 and I was thinking St.Louis was around the same time frame. I'll have to double check that one.

There are a few references unspecific references to a new course in St. Louis linked to CBM in Golf Illustrated in 1914.  For example, in December 1914 Behr wrote:  "From Long Island to St. Louis there are courses which bear the imprint of Mr. C. B. Macdonald and the National."   But I guess he could have been thinking of someplace else

[TEPaul]

"TEP,
It probably wouldn't have been a very good idea for an 'amateur' to enter into a formal business partnership with a 'professional' if that partnership was going to profit from golf course work. I don't think CBM would have jeopardized his amateur standing, so he may have requested that NSCC list him as such in any records, or they may have already seen the potential problem and did it as a courtesy."


Jim Kennedy:

There you go! You finally pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one.

From about 1914 and on for perhaps 5-6 years the amateur status situation as framed by the USGA became increasingly severe for a number of prominent golf architects and others in America who were or had been excellent amateur golfers. It sort of came to a head when the general discontent and disagreement with the USGA's amateur status policies may've begun to risk the USGA's position as the national administrative body in various areas to do with golf in America. You can read about that in some of the significant newspapers and magazine of the time (right around the end of WW1 and for a few years).

What I think we may need to know and consider is that it very well may've been Macdonald himself who helped frame and write some of the resolutions for the USGA on Amateur status during this difficult time. One in particular seems truly complex in how the USGA interpreted these things (or I might say refused to interpret them for general understanding). One resolution written in 1914 or 1915 surely does look to me like the hand and writing and reasoning style of Macdonald.

So yes, on the issue of professionalism in golf and architecture vs what he (and some of them) perceived to constitute amateurism and professionalism is pretty complex and it showed at that time. Macdonald was also extremely clear always on where he stood on that issue for himself and his own life and times in golf and architecture. And so frankly was Hugh Wilson for those who have really studied the details and documents surrounding his life.

It should be mentioned that in the early 1920s the USGA and their severe previous policies on amateur status relented and the USGA created as part of their amateur status rules what has become known as "the architect exception."

[TEPaul]

"......done for the most influential people of the era at what were to become the leading golf clubs of the day. I don't think there is anyone else of that era whose client list is the equal of his."


I think that's a very good point too if one considers that Macdonald appeared to promote Raynor as he did and if one considers Raynor himself, where he was educated and such. I think Raynor's client list was one that included some of the most impressive people in business or in power in one way or another in that era but I have never believed it was the most impressive list that way of any architect.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The President of the Harmonie Club then was Emil Goldmark. He was the General Counsel for the New York Times. The President of North Shore was Henry Calman. He was involved with the NY Zoological Society.

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