[Scott Warren]

I'm with you, Bill.

I love the drive on 9, and how it makes something really cool of a pretty non-descript piece of land, and the green has plenty going on, with the false front coming into play for a forward pin and the rough+downhill chip a factor if it's at the back.

And I like that as a three shotter it's not a difficult par, but even if you thread the drive down the left, you have a really challenge to get your 4.

I'm not too fussed on par designations, maybe that's why I really like 8 and 9.

[Mark Pearce]

Scott,

It's hardly unique as a par 5 that's not a difficult par but is a tough birdie.  Is the drive that interesting?  For me the reward of going left of the bunker just isn't balanced by any reward it might give you.  It's an interesting green but not a great one.

I still think it's a good but not great hole which gets more praise than it should just because it's at North Berwick.

[Will Smith]

Great images. Thanks for sharing.

This is a video I shot and edited on the front nine:

http://punchbowlgolf.com/2009/11/north-berwick-front-nine/

[Kyle Henderson]

I shot North Berwick earlier this year starting at about 5am. The course looked magnificent. The undulations and shaping in the fairways were like nothing I'd seen before. I really need to get back there for sunset, which is supposed to be amazing.
Here's a link to some of my shots. Let me know what you think.

www.markalexanderphotography.co.uk/NorthBerwick

No fair showing me up with better light, professional equipment and superior talent! Great photos, Mr. A!

[Tony_Muldoon]

I put 8 in the more good filler material, but this debate on 9 really hits the N.O.T.H. IMO.

I really like it and I admire the solution it's found to the problem many links course have, what to do with the flat land at the turn?  Look left of Kyle's picture and you know 8 & 9 were once farmland.  But the bunkers impressively add interest and the green takes us back into never never land.  It builds the excitement.


But is it great? No, Mark P is right  (even if it is better than he'll admit  )

[Bill_McBride]

Great images. Thanks for sharing.

This is a video I shot and edited on the front nine:

http://punchbowlgolf.com/2009/11/north-berwick-front-nine/

Very nice Will, thanks.

If you don't mind me asking, in what language is that song sung?   

[Kyle Henderson]

  It's a lovely course but I don't see it as the world beater so many others do.  For me it sits with a bunch of other shorter, older Scottish courses with bags of quirk and charm and a handful of really interesting holes.  I guess the question is, would 9 be called a great hole if it were on a different course.  My view is that the answer is a resounding no. 

Mark,

I echo your sentiments to some degree. When I scheduled North Berwick at the end of my trip, the expectation was that it would blow my socks off, much as Dornoch did when the trip began (perhaps setting myself up to be slet down???). But the course does have far too many holes that are merely adequate (1,5,7,8,11,12 especially). I don't relish the chance to play them again like some of NB's more famous holes.

That said, it's still a must play with so many great and original offerings and I would certainly play it again before Lundin Links, St. Andrews - New, Gullane #1 and a number of other well-regarded courses.

[Kyle Henderson]

The 10th is a simple par 3 in calm winds. The tee is perched in the seaside dunes with the green set down below and inland. The medal tees are 171 yards out, but most will play the hole at around 150 yards. Five bunkers surround the green on the front and sides (the far left bunker is barely distinguishable from this angle, the right two are out of frame until you scroll over). The prominent bunker in line with the flag is set ~10 paces short of the green ).

[Jud_T]

really looks like a dogtrack....

[Rich Goodale]

Now the fun really begins!

[Kyle Henderson]

really looks like a dogtrack....

These matters are all relative, for certain. I was probably a bit spoiled by this point, and also nursing a bleeding wallet. The West Links are special (I'm sure it's in the top 10% of golf courses worldwide), but flawed in ways I did not expect.

[Will Smith]

Bill-

The song is in Portuguese.

Back nine video: http://punchbowlgolf.com/2009/11/north-berwick-back-nine/

and interview with course manager Stuart Greenwood: http://punchbowlgolf.com/2009/10/stuart-greenwood-north-berwick/

[Kyle Henderson]

Like the 10th, the 11th hole (par 5, 548 yards) tees off from high in the dunes before returning players to the lower inland pastures. Two bunkers guard the right side of the landing zone, with another pair of sand pits straddling the short grass around 100 yards shy of the green.


Running approaches must scamper between two bunkers set 20-30 yards short of the green. The green is 50 paces deep and tilts sharply to the right side where a long, hidden (from this vantage point) 3rd bunker lies in waiting.

[Sean_A]

  It's a lovely course but I don't see it as the world beater so many others do.  For me it sits with a bunch of other shorter, older Scottish courses with bags of quirk and charm and a handful of really interesting holes.  I guess the question is, would 9 be called a great hole if it were on a different course.  My view is that the answer is a resounding no. 

Mark,

I echo your sentiments to some degree. When I scheduled North Berwick at the end of my trip, the expectation was that it would blow my socks off, much as Dornoch did when the trip began (perhaps setting myself up to be slet down???). But the course does have far too many holes that are merely adequate (1,5,7,8,11,12 especially). I don't relish the chance to play them again like some of NB's more famous holes.

Kyle

If you are going to lump #s 11 & 12 as so so holes and hold Dornoch up to the gold standard, then we should take a closer look at some of those holes - which strike me as underwhelming and less than ideal.  To mind I am thinking of #s 1, 7, 8, 9, 16 and possibly 18.  I personally don't have too much a problem with any of these holes, just as I don't with NB's 11 & 12, because I think they all offer something positive.  Even the bowling alley 7th at Dornoch has an interesting green and the weird 16th is pretty cool when there is a first time player in the group. 

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Without wishing to be deliberately contrary, I like 11 more than many will.  It needs a solid tee shot and the green site requires a solidly struck approach, particularly if going for it in two.  Again, not a great hole but a good one certainly as strong as 9.  I certainly think the positioning of the green uses the dune better than 9.

[Bill_McBride]

Without wishing to be deliberately contrary, I like 11 more than many will.  It needs a solid tee shot and the green site requires a solidly struck approach, particularly if going for it in two.  Again, not a great hole but a good one certainly as strong as 9.  I certainly think the positioning of the green uses the dune better than 9.

I agree on #11, and think the bunkers are about as perfectly placed as they could be.  The left to right tilt away from the dunes makes staying out of the sand a three-fold challenge.

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle

If you are going to lump #s 11 & 12 as so so holes and hold Dornoch up to the gold standard, then we should take a closer look at some of those holes - which strike me as underwhelming and less than ideal.  To mind I am thinking of #s 1, 7, 8, 9, 16 and possibly 18.  I personally don't have too much a problem with any of these holes, just as I don't with NB's 11 & 12, because I think they all offer something positive.  Even the bowling alley 7th at Dornoch has an interesting green and the weird 16th is pretty cool when there is a first time player in the group. 

Ciao

A valid point, Sean.

I agree that #1 at RD is nothing extra special, although it has some subtle spice (undulations and bunker work at the periphery plus internal putting contours)  around the green lacking at NB on #1, 7, and 8.

#7 at  RD is a bit bland. It fits right in with the “lesser” holes at NB in terms of quality (IMHO).

#8 is a great hole. The tee shot over the edge may be a bit gimmicky and too similar to the tee shot on #17 (most tee shots will end up in the same place at the bottom) but the bunkers placed short of the green on the ideal approach line combined with a world-class green complex make for much merriment.

#9 at RD is another hole I place above the “lesser” offerings at NB. Aside from the gorgeous setting right against the sea, the fairway is ideally contoured such that those seeking a flat lie must flirt with the sea. The green is perches on an excellent natural site and well-bunkered.

#16 at RD does climb quite a bit and can seem doubly taxing into a headwind. There are some features to love as well but I’ll place it as the equl of NB’s “lesser” offerings overall.

#18 is a bit blind off the tee (detracts a bit), but the fairway bunkers are well placed to defend the shortest route home and the small swale leading into the green and wrapping around the its flanks create another world-class green complex (IMHO).

In summary, NB has perhaps a half-dozen holes or more that are merely good while RDs weakness are fewer and perhaps slightly better
by my estimation.

[Scott Warren]

If I can just back the truck up a little bit, I meant to say before how impressed I was with a small detail on the 7th. With the burn making the green inacessible to anything but an aerial attack, the slope about halfway down the green on the left that helps to feed the front left pin (pictured in Kyle's image below - I had the same pin).

There is plenty of safe green area to the right away from the burn and OOB wall, but I thought that was a cool little reward for daring to play left when the pin is cut over there.

[Greg Ohlendorf]

Sean and Kyle,

Great debate on which has the better, lesser holes...NB or RD! I've never thought about either of these courses in that way given they are two of my favorites in the world. I guess that I've always felt that some of the lesser holes are only "lesser" because of all of the great holes on these two gems.

Greg

[Kyle Henderson]

Sean and Kyle,

Great debate on which has the better, lesser holes...NB or RD! I've never thought about either of these courses in that way given they are two of my favorites in the world. I guess that I've always felt that some of the lesser holes are only "lesser" because of all of the great holes on these two gems.

Greg

Indeed, that is why I put the word "lesser" in quotes, as the term is relative to the spectacular holes found elsewhere on both courses.

[Kyle Henderson]

Running parallel to the 7th, but in the opposite direction, the 397 yard 12th crosses the Eil Burn before doglegging left towards the Firth of Forth.



Four fairway bunkers are nestled on the inside of the dogleg, another single sentry guards the right side (scroll to see).




The Eil Burn is easily crossed by decent tee shot, bringing players back to the more interesting links land of North Berwick.


For the approach, players must negotiate two bunkers short and left of the green.


Another bunker impedes shots pushed to the right (scroll over). This angle also reveals some of the subtle ripples that make putting very tricky on the 12th green.

[Kyle Henderson]

The 13th is the famous “Pit” hole, a 388-yard par 4, so named for the setting of its green in a hollow between a stone wall and a small seaside dune.


Placing a tee shot near the two bunkers on the left side of the fairway will permit the player to approach the green down its axis, with room between the wall and the front of the green – the putting surface is 40 yards deep along this line.


From the right side, the green is much shallower and the wall runs tightly against the starboard flank of the green, reducing the margin for error (scroll right to view the day's pin location).


Approaches that successfully carry the wall have a chance of collecting onto the green if slightly off target, thanks to the surrounding slopes.


This view is looking inland from the left side of the green. After pushing my approach, I had to play a very precise pitch from a tight lie 5 yards right of the wall to carry the stonework and bite on the green in this position.


The intimacy of this green complex is very evident when looking back to the tee from behind the hole. It is a fascinating example of norm-defying originality.

[Kevin Pallier]

(Re: 13th) It is a fascinating example of norm-defying originality.

Well said Sir !

[Bill_McBride]

What a great hole!  If you hit the green, two putt and walk on, or miss right, pitch on, putt out and walk on, you don't get a chance to see the disaster that awaits the player who pulls his approach shot.  Into the dune or down onto the beach, it's just a bad place to miss!

The golf course is just beginning to get exciting!

[Steve Salmen]

I love what the yardage guide says under Pro's Advice for this hole:

Do not argue with the wall, it is older than you.

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