[Dan Herrmann]

It sounds goofy, but also check out some clunkers.  Anybody over 40 can tell you we learn a lot more from failure than from success.

I'll leave the definition of 'clunker' to you

[Mac Plumart]

Dan...

I think you are on to something with the "clunkers".  I've got some in mind that are close by where I live...I will be hitting them in the coming weeks.

I think you and Adam (I think that is who mentioned playing "dog tracks") mentioned the learning that can transpire by looking at these courses in contrast to the better courses.

I will let you know my thoughts, but I will spare the courses the public humiliation and won't mention their names...as I am sure some are enjoying them on a daily basis.

[DMoriarty]

Everyone learns differently, but for me the course-to-course-to-course-to-course approach is overrated.   I learn most by spending as much time as possible trying to figure one or a couple of courses.  I would submit that if a course is truly excellent then you can learn more by playing it a second or third or fourth or fifth time, as compared to playing each of these rounds at a different excellent course.  In other words, you might be better off playing five rounds on one excellent course than one round each on five different excellent courses.  

Also, one can learn quite a lot from reading the books by the old masters and by really studying a book like Doak's Anatomy of a GC, and then thinking about these things out on the course.   It may not help your score but it might help you understand what is going on with the design.   (To me it is odd that people will pay such high sums for the Confidential Guide when they can learn so much from Anatomy at a fraction of the cost.)

Also, if you ever get a chance to periodically look in on an excellent team as they create a course or even a golf hole, take the opportunity as it is a tremendous learning experience.  And ask questions.

[Mac Plumart]

David...love your ideas.

Tell me more about periodically looking in on a team as they create a golf hole.  Do you mean actually go to a site where an architect is building a course/hole and keep going back over time to see how it progesses?  I think that is what you mean.  That sounds so awesome!!!!!!!!!  What a great idea!  You see the raw land, you see the ideas on the sketch board (so the speak), you get the gist of what they are doing and why, and then you see the raw land transformed before you very eyes.  Right?

Ok...is it common place that designers will let some Joe Schmoe look over their shoulder?  If so, how should I go about doing this?

Not to be redundant, but I love all your ideas and thoughts on this one!

Thanks!

[DMoriarty]

I don't know if it is common or not, but I've gotten to know a few people who have been kind enough to allow me to peek in on their projects at various stages.   Like I said, it is probably an if you get the chance type of thing, and I think I probably have gotten lucky by being in the right place at the right time.  But when allowed the chance to look in I've tried to take it even when it wasn't totally convenient for me, and I make an effort to be respectful to everyone and well out of the way so my presence will not interfere or burden anyone, and try to keep the time where anyone might have had to be responsible for me to a minimum.  I don't know for sure, but this may have made it easier from them to allow me back a at later stages.   It also probably hasn't hurt that I am mostly interested in courses where the design teams are very hands on and appreciate those who are truly interested in what they are trying to accomplish.  

Depending on the design team, changes, repairs, renovations, restorations, and redos are also a good chance to get a feel for how the process works.  It is easy to see the "before;" oftentimes the course may still accessible in the "during;" and it is again accessible in the "after."  

[Rob Rigg]

Mac,

It is hard to imagine that anywhere in the US can give you as much interesting GCA at one time than a trip to Bandon.

Having the ability to play these courses in 36 hole clips over a week or so would be a really cool and knowledge building experience.

There are a lot of great private clubs on Long Island or in Monterrey that would be wonderful to visit as well but let's face it, Bandon is public and invites to the most prestigious clubs in the country do not come quite as easy as booking a flight (even if it is out to Bandon).

Of course, starting at TOC is probably the best thing any GCA buff could do - chapeau!

[JNC Lyon]

Three American classics from which much can be learned:

Merion (East): It shows how a course can have endless variety in its set of greens without having any greens that appear out of place.  I demonstrates that a course can be highly strategic and still be a test for the world's best.  The 5th Hole is for me, the highest form in lay-of-the-land architecture.  It possesses strategy for every level of golfer, is a bear for the best players, and disturbs as little earth as possible.

Garden City: Emmet and Travis display how to create interest and strategy on a very modest piece of land.  Emmet's routing also shows how to make the best out of an awkwardly-shaped property.  It is the best walking course that I have seen.

Yeamans Hall:  This club shows that the wild, rough-around-the-edges ground game is still alive and well in the US.  It displays some of Raynor's most wild green complexes that no architect would dare build today.  It also showcases Seth Raynor as the most underrated router of the Golden Age.

[Mac Plumart]

Rob and JNC...I didn't see your post until today.  Great stuff. 

JNC...very thought provoking stuff.  A friend of mine belongs to Yeamans and I will have to check it out.

Rob...here's the deal.  I've been scared of Bandon Dunes thus far, as it is walking only.  And I know I could get a handicapped cart, but I always feel like a tool when I do that.  The doctor said by mid 2010, I should be pain free and able to walk.  Perhaps, I could meet you at Bandon and walk a few rounds together after that time?  Melvyn and you have inspired me to become a walking golfer...I will make it, but I am unsure as to the timing.

Also as an update...this weekend I am heading to play World Woods (Pine Barrens), Black Diamond Ranch (Quarry), and TPC Sawgrass.  I am really excited about it...but I am a bit nervous as my legs are not where I had hoped they would be..but oh well, I will gut it out.

But after this trip, I am hitting some "clunkers" or "dog tracks" in my local area...as y'all have suggested it. 

I'll let you know my progess.

Also...I "Scotlands Gift" arrived last night!!!!  I've already started...what a great book...thus far!!

[John Mayhugh]

Also as an update...this weekend I am heading to play World Woods (Pine Barrens), Black Diamond Ranch (Quarry), and TPC Sawgrass.  I am really excited about it...but I am a bit nervous as my legs are not where I had hoped they would be..but oh well, I will gut it out.

Not sure how much time you have during your World Woods visit.  The Dunes at Seville is also worth a look and pretty economical.  I didn't get a chance to see Brooksville CC, but I think those that played there would recommend it as well.  If you're trying to learn from courses, it's always good to see a variety of approaches to courses in a similar area.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37030.msg758620/#msg758620

And if you need to ride, ride!  99% of us don't care what other people do.

[Rob Rigg]

Mac,

I totally understand your personal situation in regards to walking - if you need to ride at Bandon then by all means do - if you can walk a hole here or there then great, if not, it doesn't matter. 99% of people who can walk Bandon will not appreciate it anywhere near as much as you.

BDGR is a special place and the gca is out of this world good - it is right up your alley.

When, not if, you make it out there just let me know so we can tee it up.

You have three great courses on the docket this w/e - enjoy!

[Sean_A]

Mac

I admit to a bias in this direction, but I would look into some of the wonderful courses which are very short by today's standards - say less than 6000 from the daily tees.  I think getting to know this type of course will cure any inkling that greatness lies with 7000 yards and a par of 72. 

Ciao

[Mac Plumart]

Ok…I am back from my Florida boondoggle.  I haven’t “officially” posted my reviews on the courses as first I would love some feedback on the following holes.  

The first is 17 on the Black Diamond Ranch Quarry course.  The tees I played from were about 6500 yards in total length.  This hole is a 225 par 3 from an elevated tee to an extremely narrow green with dramatic slopes.  When I first played it, I thought it was unfair and too quirky.  But as the days wore on, I found myself thinking more and more about the hole and wanting to play it again and again.  So, is this hole a great one or too quirky?





The next on is the 15th on TPC Sawgrass.  It is a 416 yard par 4.  The view is from the tee box.  It is the narrowest “shoot” I’ve ever seen from a tee box.  Is it okay or too narrow?





The final one is 15 at World Woods Pine Barrens.  I fell in love with it immediately.  From the tees I played it is a 312 yard par 4.  You can take the fairway to the left or try to drive over the slop to the right.  It is about 200 to carry the water and 230 to carry the sand.  And of course 312 to drive the green, but there are traps/bunkers all over.  I love its risk/reward and the play it safe route that it provides.  Am I off base or on the money concerning my thoughts on this hole?






Thanks in advance!

[Jason Topp]

The next on is the 15th on TPC Sawgrass.  It is a 416 yard par 4.  The view is from the tee box.  It is the narrowest “shoot” I’ve ever seen from a tee box.  Is it okay or too narrow?

I vote ok.  I did not recall the chute being that narrow on 15.  Many older courses in the midwest have narrower gaps.  The fairway is pretty wide although you need to choose the correct line due to its curving nature.


The final one is 15 at World Woods Pine Barrens.  I fell in love with it immediately.  From the tees I played it is a 312 yard par 4.  You can take the fairway to the left or try to drive over the slop to the right.  It is about 200 to carry the water and 230 to carry the sand.  And of course 312 to drive the green, but there are traps/bunkers all over.  I love its risk/reward and the play it safe route that it provides.  Am I off base or on the money concerning my thoughts on this hole?

I have only played it once and would need to play it multiple times to form an opinion.  I tried the right hand side and, while I was successful off the tee, I did not see that it gained me much. 

My memory could be a little too hazy from that round, however.






Thanks in advance!

[/quote]

[Sean Leary]

While I really like WWPB, 15 might be the most overrated hole on the planet. Gets way too much ink IMO. Its a good hole but people fawn over it like its 10 at Riviera or 9 at CPC.

[Mac Plumart]

Jason and Sean...

Please elaborate on Pine Barrens.

I hit over the sand/water and was left with an 70ish yard chip.  If you play the left side, what is left?

Sean...why is it over-rated?  And, yes, I am serious and not bating you in for any reason.  When I saw it I LOVED it and was pumped to play it.  Perhaps I was taken in by the beauty, perceived gain of driving the water, etc. 

[Jud_T]

Mac,

in Scotland I would check out the following in addition to the old course:

Carnoustie
Kingsbarns
Prestwick
Western Gailes


In the states, get to:

Kingsley
Lawsonia
Lost Dunes
Shore Acres
Bethpage Black
All the Bandon Courses

just for starters!

[Bill_McBride]

Mac, here's a schematic of the hole from the WW website (based on Toms-Mickelsen SWWOG match):



If you can make the carry on the direct line to the green - which can be daunting depending on the tee you play -- there is a pretty simple pitch left to get a birdie.

If you play safely out into the Elysian Fields on the left, you are left with a difficult downhill pitch to a green that slopes away from you pretty sharply, very difficult to get close.

So pick your poison, I think it's a terrific option hole and a great short par 4, maybe my favorite Fazio hole.

Last time there I hit it up to the left and somehow managed to drive it into the little pot bunker.  I was lucky enough to draw a good lie and hit a PW to 5' and made birdie.    Proving once again that there is more than one way to skin a cat.  

[Ben Kodadek]

Jason and Sean...

Please elaborate on Pine Barrens.

I hit over the sand/water and was left with an 70ish yard chip.  If you play the left side, what is left?

Sean...why is it over-rated?  And, yes, I am serious and not bating you in for any reason.  When I saw it I LOVED it and was pumped to play it.  Perhaps I was taken in by the beauty, perceived gain of driving the water, etc. 

Mac,

I've played PB about 20 times.  15 is a wonderful match play hole, particularily because it presents its self so late in the round.  I have found no advantage to playing up the left side.  I have a few times when I've been struggling off the tee or my opponent is in trouble, but I've found the pitch from the left quite awkward.  Typcially 60-80 yards and if the pin is in the front or on the left, you have a tough time seeing the bottom.  I can't remember the last time I did lay up.  For that matter, 14 is a wonderful match play hole as well.  A well placed drive often leaves a reachable 2nd shot if the wind is not hurting.  It took me a number of rounds to realize that this was a hole to challenge.

[Eric Smith]

re PB 15: I've seen guys make that pitch from the left and hit what looked to be good pitch shots only to have their balls land on the downslope and skid well beyond the hole.  From the front entry (direct line from the tee) the pitch is much more manageable imo.

[Mac Plumart]

Interesting...

So, perhaps, what might appear to be the "risky" shot is the sensible shot.  Very cool/tricky.

I like the hole even more now!!!

Thanks y'all!!!

[Eric Smith]

Interesting...

So, perhaps, what might appear to be the "risky" shot is the sensible shot.  Very cool/tricky.

That's one of the real treats of great gca Mac!

[Mac Plumart]

Okay, I’ve taken your advice and played another “clunker”.  Prior to today’s round, I had played 2 of them.  After my second clunker, a friend of mine said that “life is too short to play bad golf courses.”  Based on this outlook, I have been avoiding them.  However, based on Adam C., Dan H., and Donal’s advice I changed my mind on this.  You all have said that in order to fully appreciate the gems, I need to experience the duds.  And let me say “Thanks”…you guys are right on so many levels.  Humor me and allow me to detail my latest experience.

First off, it has been very rainy here in Atlanta…with this in mind, my home course has been wet, a little soggy here or there, but all in all very playable despite this rain.  However, the “clunker” (whose name will remain hidden) was wet, soggy, muddy, nasty and pretty darn close to unplayable.  Is a drainage issue like this bad architecture or bad maintenance or both?

Nevertheless, I didn’t let this deter me and I played it anyway.  Another thing that struck me is the lack of variety regarding the holes and the challenges presented on the course as a whole and on the individual holes.  Most shots were straight.  No need for a strategy on the holes…no need to work a draw or a fade…no risk/reward shots.  Simply hit it straight a few times, chip and putt…and then tee it up on the next hole.

With shots like this, that feeling of excitement and drama was lacking.  You never felt that rush of trying to hit a high flying approach and just carry a bunker…but not too far as another one was waiting just over the back of the green.  Etc.

This type of stuff is definitely architecture related.

Another interesting issue were the bunkers.  Due to the rain, the sand was hard packed and brick hard.  I was in two or three bunkers and raking them wasn’t needed when I left them as my feet left no imprints.  Maintenance issue…I think…but maybe the architecture left poor drainage in place?

Final point on the course…the greens.  They were shaggy and pock marked.  Obvious maintenance issue.  Many putts were thrown off line as they rolled over old ball marks.  Not a fun experience.

Nevertheless, I found the experience extremely worthwhile, enjoyable, and enlightening for two main reasons.  

The first is why I went in the first place and that was to appreciate quality architecture and learn more about golf course architecture in general.  After this round, I went to my home club, St. Ives, to play.  The quality of St. Ives really came out after this experience.  The heroic carries, strategy on shots and holes, the variety, etc…and the level of maintenance and the standard of upkeep regarding the course really was brought forth.  And St. Ives is not a Top 100 courses and, frankly, is not anywhere near a Top 100 course.  It is a really nice residential golf course designed by Tom Fazio in a family friendly country club that is 10 minutes from my home.  It is perfect for me and my family of 4.

The other reason my trip was worthwhile, enjoyable, and enlightening was directly related to who I got paired up with.  You see, I went as a single and was teamed up with a father and his son (who was home from college on Thanksgiving vacation).  They were just learning the game and in fact this was the fourth time they had ever been on a golf course.  They were nervous to be teamed up with me and they thought I was some big time experienced golfing pro.  I told them I was new to the game as well and we were simply going to have fun…which we did.  They actually were pretty good, all things considered.  But what was so cool about it was seeing how this “clunker” of a golf course could be used by a father and son to bond for 3-4 hours, learn the game together, and have a life-long activity they could enjoy together.  I think CB MacDonald said, “Some golf is better than no golf”…or something like that.  I couldn’t agree more.  And, once again, this showed me how powerful and magical this game is…no matter where you play it.

Adam, Dan,  and Donal (and all of you)…THANKS!!!  This turned out to be yet another perspective setting and, potentially, life enhancing experience!!!


But hey…3 “clunkers”…is that enough?!?!?!?  Please say yes!!!
 

[Sean_A]

Hey Mac, I wouldn't get too carried away with playing clunkers if you have a decent memory!  Besides, you will run into many clunker holes on perfectly serviceable courses and on good courses.  In fact, many believe that a dubious hole or two on a great course can help that course be great.  I am not sure why, but folks have said such things.

Ciao

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I think CB MacDonald said, “Some golf is better than no golf”…or something like that.  I couldn’t agree more.  And, once again, this showed me how powerful and magical this game is…no matter where you play it.

Adam, Dan,  and Donal (and all of you)…THANKS!!!  This turned out to be yet another perspective setting and, potentially, life enhancing experience!!!

But hey…3 “clunkers”…is that enough?!?!?!?  Please say yes!!!
 

Mac:

Yes, 3 is enough. As Sean said, you'll play some average courses that have some pretty bad holes as well.

Given the chance, I'd prefer to play a clunker than stay at home watching day time TV. Just getting out for a few hours, knocking a little white ball around, and breathing in some fresh air is what it's all about. Anything else is a bonus!

I have probably only played one really terrible (maybe terrible is a bit strong a word, but it was pretty bad) course in my lifetime, and only perhaps 6-7 of the holes were stinkers. I won't mention its name (I don't think anybody on GCA.com has played it) as it has been improved since I last played it. It was always prone to flooding, so all the tees and greens were built up about 1 foot higher than the fairway. The fairways were very hairy as they couldn't run their tractor and gang-mower due to the soggy ground. It was just terrible playing to the same elevated type of greeen, hole after hole. If your ball landed one foot short of the green it stayed there. There were no bunkers as they would have filled with water everytime there was a heavy downpour. I'm glad it has been renovated in recent years. So, 3 clunkers is definitely enough.

Dónal.

[Mac Plumart]

Questions…

Over the last few weeks, I have the great opportunity to play some very good golf courses…Augusta CC, Sea Island Seaside, and Sea Island Plantation.  Keeping things along the lines of courses to learn from, I would love to pick your guys brains on a few things…

#1—I’ve played a few Ross courses to date.  At three of them (Inverness, CC Of Columbus, and Augusta CC), I’ve noticed very similar greens especially in terms of undulations.  However, East Lake’s greens are distinctly flatter and faster.  Am I correct to assume that these undulating greens are Ross’ hallmark and Rees Jones altered East Lake’s greens to accommodate the PGA players while they tee it up at the Tour Championship?

#2—While at Sea Island, I read the clubs history in a book called “At the end of the oaks”…I think it was.  That book stated that Colt and Alison (Alison really) built the now current back nine at Seaside, which makes this the first Colt/Alision course I’ve played.  However, Fazio re-did it in 1999.  These greens are distinctly different any other Fazio I’ve played.  The question is this…are Colt/Alison known for their undulating and interesting greens and, therefore, these greens the product of them  OR is Fazio simply dynamic and uses a wide variety of architectural techniques to develop different features on courses and, therefore, these greens are Fazio’s idea? 

#3—Many of you told me not play Plantation as I wouldn’t enjoy it as much as Seaside.  I decided to play it anyway to see it and learn from it.  You all were right, Seaside is much better…but I am glad I played Plantation.  I would describe it as a nice bowl of vanilla ice cream, which is not too bad!

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