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Matt_Ward

The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« on: May 29, 2009, 03:20:27 PM »
I had the good fortune in re-reading Geoff Shackelford's marvelous, "Alister Mackenzie's Cypress Point Club," and I was struck by the amount of discussion within the book on the good Doctor's desire -- along with Marion Hollins -- to have an extended champ tee included for the 18th hole.

The "new" tee would have extended the hole a good 50 yards and be perched on a point that would require a suspension bridge to be created (drawings were done and are included in the book pp 184-185).

It seems the desire to move forward with this was nixed in the bud by Samuel Morse because of the nature of rouigh seas and winter storms and the like and his fear that such a tee would block views of the stunning landscape.

I'd be curious to know if such a plan were now brought into motion would the overall qualities of CP be further enhanced. No doubt the course is rated among the five best in the USA now -- but it seems to me -- and a number of others -- who can forget the great Jimmy Demaret line on CP -- that the present concluding hole is just not the kind of ending one would have hope for -- clearly the good Doctor and Ms. Hollins understood in contemplating such a rear tee position.

One has to wonder if other "non" tees or other design elements -- originally thought of by the designer and his collaborative team -- would have changed (for the better) such designs. I've played CP twice and always felt the 18th was a rather lame concluding hole to such a fantastic layout. Possibly the "new" tee may be brought back into the picture ?

Tom Huckaby

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Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2009, 03:34:16 PM »
Cut down the trees straight off the current tee and this would be very neat, and a fine upgrade.

Fail to do that and the hole becomes darn near unplayable for 95% of the golfing world (and 99.9% of their members I'd have to guess).

There's also the problem of the land on which the tee would sit.. it's rather connected to a vista point on 17 Mile Drive... and a nesting point for birds, sunbathing spot for seals.  The mind boggles at the environment hurdles that would have to be overcome should the club want to take the land for a golf tee.

So methinks it's a neat idea - one that might have worked in 1929, with a willingness to forego planting and/or cut down some massive trees... but here today?

I just don't see it being doable in any way.

The bridge and tee would look neat, however.

 ;D

Matt_Ward

Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2009, 03:36:30 PM »
Huck:

My point is that the good Doctor and Marion Hollins knew what the hole really needed and Morse opted to scale down their brilliance. Have to wonder how much better CP would have been viewed with such a unique and compelling design element.

Tom Huckaby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2009, 03:42:35 PM »
Are we sure Morse scaled down their brilliance?  Isn't it equally possible he saved the club gazillions of dollars in building (and re-building, and re-building) costs? 

Those are pretty rough seas there... and the ocean does have quite a bit of erosive power.  I read the same thing you did, and came away thinking Morse was wise. Seeing the area in person countless times (nearly all of which were from the vista point) only reinforced that.

But yes, it MIGHT have been something.  The real point is we will never know.  There's no way it's ever going to happen in today's reality.

The same thing goes for those who pine away for 14, wishing it could have been built closer to water's edge... even if it could have (which is debatable given the existence/plans for 17 Mile Drive) it's meaningless to contemplate as it's sure not going anywhere now....

TH

Matt_Ward

Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2009, 03:46:30 PM »
For any other club I would say $$ would be a concern.

However, CP would fare no less on a new 18 tee box then what has been done to handle erosion at other locations -- most notably Pebble Beach.

Regarding the 14th -- I don't believe the good Doctor or Ms. Hollins contemplated such a green location. But the 18th tee for a champ position was on their agenda. Morse, according to the book, bagged it because of the intrusion it might have caused with views from the location in question.

Like I said, CP's reputation is secure ... however, it would have clearyl eliminated the Demaret quip had it been included.

Tom Huckaby

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Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2009, 03:55:54 PM »
Hmmm..two separate questions:

 1.  Could they/should they have done this in the 1920s?  I'd say it would have been a huge expense, and what Pebble did recently could not have been done back then, so that's not a fair comparison.  Even CPC likely wouldn't want to spend money foolishly.  And it's at the very least quite arguable that this would have been money foolishly spent, which Morse saved them.

2.  Could they do it today?  Sure, they have the means and could do something that would likely last many years, at not too horrid of an expense.  However, I just see no way they bulldoze the CA Coastal Commission on this one, not how things are today.  So that's a no-go....

As for the 14th, do we really know the Good Doctor never contemplated this?  Seems pretty obvious as a great location... Or was it again just Morse telling him he can't go there?  Heck it matters not - I only mention it because to me it's as esoteric as discussing the bridge and island tee on 18.... it's never going to happen.... so what's the point of discussing these what-ifs?

TH

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2009, 03:59:29 PM »
From an aerial it looks like no one could be standing on the 17th green as someone was hitting from the tee you(and M&H)'ve proposed. The 'correct' line from that tee is only 90' from the 17th green and that's not a very safe situation.

Maybe they shied away from building it because it could only be used in a controlled tournament setting, and the cost to build it vs. the number of times it would be used just didn't make economic sense.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 04:09:19 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Matt_Ward

Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2009, 04:03:21 PM »
Huck:

The book doesn't mention anything on #14 being extended in the manner you outlined. I salute the research that Geoff did and surely it would have been included if that was truly being contemplated.

In regards to the 18th -- no doubt it did not occur -- for a host of reasons.

But my overall point is how original decisions -- made by the key architect in question and Ms. Hollins -- were thrown to the waste heap and how such an action does serve to influence what people to this day still think of the 18th hole at CP.

I credit the good Doctor and Ms. Hollins for really seeing such a virtue and if it been included would have made the Demaret comment a non starter. Simple as that ...

Jim K:

There are plenty of tee locations from the rear position that sometimes require a close flight over and / or around the preceding hole. If memory serves Lahinch has one at the 7th and it works quite well.

Given the lack of play at CP -- I don't see how such a tee box would have ruined the round because of its closeness to the existign 17th green.

The book doesn't mention the cost factor -- just that Morse didn't want the views to be further impacted by its inclusion.

Tom Huckaby

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Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2009, 04:10:21 PM »
Matt:

You again miss my point of mentioning 14.  I know it was not stated in the book.  However, it does seem like an obviously nice site for a green... one that MacKenzie, or you, or I would surely want to route a golf hole towards if we could, no?  The fact the hole goes away from the ocean... well the whys and what fors of course we do not know, but isn't one very logical possibility that Morse (or someone else) just told them straight from the start that that area was off limits, due to road or whatever?  And in any case, it matters not... ONCE AGAIN.. I mention it only because it does seem like a better golf hole might have been built closer to the water, but what's there now is pretty darn great and not gonna change, so why contemplate it one way or the other?

And this remains analagous to your questions about 18. 

Sure, you're right, had they built that bridge, had they cut down all the trees necessary to make it work, had they never faced the horrible fate that 7/8 Pasa did with someone killed on the green from an errant shot from the tee, then yes, Demaret never makes his comment, others have little to complain about regarding the course, and we do not have this conversation today.

So I get your point.  Decisions have long-lasting effects. 

I just don't necessarily agree that it could have been done back then, it should have been done back then, but most importantly, that it matters much at all now.


Bob_Huntley

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Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2009, 07:49:35 PM »
I played there last week and wandered to the exreme edge of the teeing ground, looked back at the rock on which many think should be used for the betterment of the hole. I think it would be insane.

Any bridge would need to be engineered to the nth degree, be incredibly expensive to build, maintain and dangerous to traverse in windy weather. For what, another fifty yards on a hole with a network of trees to catch every drive?

Remove one tree and you would have a decent finishing hole....leave it alone and you have a disappointment.

Bob 

Michael Blake

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Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2009, 08:28:41 PM »
Matt,

I've just re-read as well.  Great book.

I find Marion Hollins' story very interesting.  She seemed very influential and powerful.  The Good Dr. certainly trusted her judgement.
Also, some good details of how 'natural' he felt a course should look....talking about tops of bunker lines mimicikng tops of tree lines (part of his camouflage?)

I wonder what the course would have looked like if Raynor had not died and actually designed it as Hollins originally hired him to do?

Sorry to semi-threadjack.

Matt_Ward

Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2009, 09:55:56 PM »
Bob H:

While I can appreciate your opinion -- I side with the good Doctor and Marion Holllins on its inclusiion.

The present 18th is exactly what Demaret mentioned -- it's totally anticlimatic to what you have experienced prior to that.

I would dare say that other than the 18th at BB -- I can't name a more lack luster concluding hole for such a grand golf course
than what you find at CP.

Bob, I can certainly understand what you say about removing one tree -- but the hole would have ended in a more supreme fashion with the placement of the tee where the Good Doctor and Marion Hollins originally wished.

I do agree with Huck -- that such a decision is forever lost -- given the penchant of the California Coastal Commission to keep things as they are. So be it ...

Michael B:

What's interesting is how Hollins convinced Mackenzie on the need for #16 to be a par-3 -- not a par-4.

Too bad Morse could not see that same vision for the 18th at CP.

I'd be interested in knowing if a routing plan for CP by Raynor was ever formally created and kept in the club archives. Be curious to see how it would differ from what Mackenzie envisioned.

Brett Morris

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Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2009, 10:14:01 PM »
By having the tee where the Dr had hoped makes it around 275 yards to the dogleg.  With the original bunkering on either side of the fairway it would have been quite a tee shot...





...compared to the high fade now.





Would re-instating the original bunkers assist in improving its 'lack luster' feel from the shorter tee?

Matt_Ward

Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2009, 10:22:09 PM »
Brett:

The added 50 yards from the proposed original champ tee by Mackenzie and Hollins would have made a vast difference. The new tee would have called upon a solid marriage between sufficient distance and shot control.

Putting back bunkers from the shorter tee would do really nothing for me.

Like I said before -- I don't think there's a more lame concluding hole than CP's -- save for BB which is clear example of architecture via plastic surgey run amok. CP's reputation would have gained even more fanfare with such a closing hole.




Michael Dugger

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Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2009, 12:26:37 AM »
Well then they wouldn't call it the best 17 hole course in the world now would they Matt?
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Matt_Ward

Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2009, 05:20:34 AM »
Michael:

Clearly the good Doctor and Ms. Hollins would have made it the best 18 in the world with such an addition.
 ;)

Rich Goodale

Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2009, 06:29:06 AM »
Vis a vis the "problem" of hitting over the 17th green from the "missing 18th tee at CP" , given the speed of play, lack of play and Golden Age etiquette, this would not have been a problem.  At my home course today, our back 16th tee (450) plays directly over our 15th hole (170).  In the hundreds of rounds I have played off the back (medal) tees at Aberdour, the 15th green has NEVER been occupied when I have teed off from there.  Speed of play and common courtesy make that hypothetical situation a near impossibility.

David Kelly

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Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2009, 01:42:25 PM »
Brent,

I don't think the point that you indicated as where the tee would be is correct.  Having just looked at it last week, the point you are indicating is an area of rocks that are well below the playing surface.  I think the originally proposed 18th tee would have been back further and to the right, where the brown and green area is located.  This area is high above the ocean and about even with the rest of the course.  If someone tried to make this a tee now, golfers would be teeing off over that parking lot and the trees that shield and hide it from the course, not the 17th green.  Which would be less than ideal.

I agree about cutting down one or more of the fairway trees.  It is a simple change that would make the hole much, much better.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Bill_McBride

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Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2009, 03:21:51 PM »
Brent,

I don't think the point that you indicated as where the tee would be is correct.  Having just looked at it last week, the point you are indicating is an area of rocks that are well below the playing surface.  I think the originally proposed 18th tee would have been back further and to the right, where the brown and green area is located.  This area is high above the ocean and about even with the rest of the course.  If someone tried to make this a tee now, golfers would be teeing off over that parking lot and the trees that shield and hide it from the course, not the 17th green.  Which would be less than ideal.

I agree about cutting down one or more of the fairway trees.  It is a simple change that would make the hole much, much better.

I seem to recall reading that the site of the proposed tee was literally wiped out in a typical winter storm not long after Cypress Point was built.

I agree with Dave, taking out the one big tree right in the middle of the fairway  :o would make it a much better hole.  The green is wonderful for a short par 4, just getting up there is no guarantee of a par.

Forrest Richardson

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Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2009, 11:23:37 AM »
One (related) theory, penned by yours truly, goes like this...[from Routing the Golf Course]

"The most intriguing mystery at Cypress involves the continuing theories on what decisions were made along the stretch of holes at the ocean. During construction and even after completion of much of the golf course, both MacKenzie and Hunter wrote descriptions of the 16th as a par 4. By these accounts, the routing would have been an unusual 35 going out and 38 coming in for a total par 73. The ocean holes were likely to have played a big part in the routing. Except for the locations of tees and slight shifts in green sites, these holes were mostly nonadjustable. All movement had to lead up to them, and the holes that did were far less etched in stone.

Also somewhat a mystery is the March 1926 presentation plan by Barrows that formed a par 73. This play showed the holes playing as follows: Out — 4, 5, 3, 4, 4*, 3*, 4*, 4, 4 = 35; and then In — 5, 5*, 5*, 3*, 4, 3, 4*, 4, 4 = 38. The asterisked pars show where changes were later made in the final layout. The final routing ended up as: Out — 4, 5, 3, 4, 5, 5, 3, 4, 4 = 37; and then In — 5, 4, 4, 4, 4, 3, 3, 4, 4 = 35 — quite opposite that of the presentation plan in terms of the front and back. How is it supposed that such a swing between nines occurred?

Could MacKenzie and Hunter have had plans up their sleeves to adjust the back-to-back par 5s on the front? Or, did they make any effort to change the 17th into a par 5? This latter idea has not been given much attention, but with ample room for a farther seabound tee at No. 17, perhaps less opportunity to cut past the stand of cypress trees at the fairway, and maybe even less clearing along the cliffs, the 17th may well have been Cypress’s answer to the Cape Hole, the popular 18th down the road at Pebble Beach. True, such a hole may have been a marginal par 5 in terms of length, but there is no question that a hole of even 460 yards in this era, especially one with the ocean to the slice side, would be a deciding hole toward the end of the round. One sure to tempt players to try for eagle.

It was well known that MacKenzie, even as late as 1931, was intent on convincing the Club to install an island tee at No. 18 that would lengthen the hole by as much as 50 yards. His design concept at the 18th called for a suspension bridge and was even taken to the engineering stage. This idea was vetoed by Samuel Morse as being too intrusive and possibly dangerous. So, if not at the 18th, then why not a tee way out at the 17th? No bridge would be required at 17.

If the 17th had been made into a par 5 and if the 16th had been made a par 4, the series along the ocean might have been 3, 4, and then 5 — perhaps a better-appearing series, certainly seeming more diverse to anyone looking at the scorecard from afar. Hollins was dead set against the 16th being anything but a stout par 3, and the 14th had been shifted away from the ocean, so the desire to explore a par 5 along the sea at the 17th may have been even stronger."

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2009, 12:34:05 PM »

I'd be curious to know if such a plan were now brought into motion would the overall qualities of CP be further enhanced. No doubt the course is rated among the five best in the USA now -- but it seems to me -- and a number of others -- who can forget the great Jimmy Demaret line on CP -- that the present concluding hole is just not the kind of ending one would have hope for -- clearly the good Doctor and Ms. Hollins understood in contemplating such a rear tee position.

One has to wonder if other "non" tees or other design elements -- originally thought of by the designer and his collaborative team -- would have changed (for the better) such designs. I've played CP twice and always felt the 18th was a rather lame concluding hole to such a fantastic layout. Possibly the "new" tee may be brought back into the picture ?

Matt,

I've been thinking about this for some time now.  These are all really good questions, and with such a head scratcher as the eighteenth, I believe they are all legitimate as well.

However, while a new tee on the rock behind the current tee would have been astounding view wise, I don't believe it would add anything to the hole, and in fact make it worse.  Here is why.

1) The hole is good as it is.  Some people don't like to believe it, but after 17 holes in a row with many ways to play all of them, Mackenzie finally just requires the player to execute.  He puts forth two doable shots; one is a 200 to 220 yard shot that must hit the fairway, followed by a demanding uphill approach with a short iron.  If a player has played well in his round, they should be able to back it up on 18 with a par.  I don't believe Mackenzie wanted this hole to be a slouch, and it is not.
2) At 343 yards from the back tees, it follows Cypress's trend of par-4's under 400 yards.  Is there any other golf course with such elaborate and well designed par-4's under 400 yards?  I have never seen one.
3) The tee shot from 60 plus yards back would just be too demanding.  For most it would be a good driver to have any chance.  And just the fact the tee would be out on the rocks would incline many players to play it.  The hole would just be too hard.
4) Since 1928, when the course opened, there have been just two or three tees moved back (I need to research more to find that exact number).  However, those were minor changes and the course is essentially presented just as it was when it opened, with regards to length.  There is something to be said and respected for such a well preserved golf course.

For these reasons I don't like the back tee that would have been on the rock.

But some other things about the eighteenth, I believe it is really under appreciated in discussion of the course.  It's important to realize that not every hole needs to provide an abundance of options.  Not only does it force the player to execute his golf shots, but it adds diversity to the course.  While the tee shot is unique and is some senses a bit odd, it is for one one of a kind and in my opinion that makes it special.

Also, I believe the second shot is really good.  The first time player will play to the right of the green, fearing his second might him the tree on the left and short of the green when in fact it is easily carried.  The visual deception is fun and downright a smart ploy that spices up the second shot.  The green is severly pitched and is one of the most difficult on the course.  It follows the prospect of the entire hole; that one must hit good shots and execute, in order to finish his round and earn his score.

I like the eighteenth a lot.  And Matt, to anser your questions, I don't believe the addition of the back tee would add much to the hole.

Jordan
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 12:35:40 PM by Jordan Wall »

Bob_Huntley

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Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2009, 01:03:16 PM »

I'd be curious to know if such a plan were now brought into motion would the overall qualities of CP be further enhanced. No doubt the course is rated among the five best in the USA now -- but it seems to me -- and a number of others -- who can forget the great Jimmy Demaret line on CP -- that the present concluding hole is just not the kind of ending one would have hope for -- clearly the good Doctor and Ms. Hollins understood in contemplating such a rear tee position.

One has to wonder if other "non" tees or other design elements -- originally thought of by the designer and his collaborative team -- would have changed (for the better) such designs. I've played CP twice and always felt the 18th was a rather lame concluding hole to such a fantastic layout. Possibly the "new" tee may be brought back into the picture ?

Matt,

I've been thinking about this for some time now.  These are all really good questions, and with such a head scratcher as the eighteenth, I believe they are all legitimate as well.

However, while a new tee on the rock behind the current tee would have been astounding view wise, I don't believe it would add anything to the hole, and in fact make it worse.  Here is why.

1) The hole is good as it is.  Some people don't like to believe it, but after 17 holes in a row with many ways to play all of them, Mackenzie finally just requires the player to execute.  He puts forth two doable shots; one is a 200 to 220 yard shot that must hit the fairway, followed by a demanding uphill approach with a short iron.  If a player has played well in his round, they should be able to back it up on 18 with a par.  I don't believe Mackenzie wanted this hole to be a slouch, and it is not.
2) At 343 yards from the back tees, it follows Cypress's trend of par-4's under 400 yards.  Is there any other golf course with such elaborate and well designed par-4's under 400 yards?  I have never seen one.
3) The tee shot from 60 plus yards back would just be too demanding.  For most it would be a good driver to have any chance.  And just the fact the tee would be out on the rocks would incline many players to play it.  The hole would just be too hard.
4) Since 1928, when the course opened, there have been just two or three tees moved back (I need to research more to find that exact number).  However, those were minor changes and the course is essentially presented just as it was when it opened, with regards to length.  There is something to be said and respected for such a well preserved golf course.

For these reasons I don't like the back tee that would have been on the rock.

But some other things about the eighteenth, I believe it is really under appreciated in discussion of the course.  It's important to realize that not every hole needs to provide an abundance of options.  Not only does it force the player to execute his golf shots, but it adds diversity to the course.  While the tee shot is unique and is some senses a bit odd, it is for one one of a kind and in my opinion that makes it special.

Also, I believe the second shot is really good.  The first time player will play to the right of the green, fearing his second might him the tree on the left and short of the green when in fact it is easily carried.  The visual deception is fun and downright a smart ploy that spices up the second shot.  The green is severly pitched and is one of the most difficult on the course.  It follows the prospect of the entire hole; that one must hit good shots and execute, in order to finish his round and earn his score.

I like the eighteenth a lot.  And Matt, to anser your questions, I don't believe the addition of the back tee would add much to the hole.

Jordan


Jordan,

Methinks you have fallen in love too quickly with the 18th at CPC.

Do me a favor, as you get more loops around the course with Members, tell me how many of them can get a shot over THE tee in front of them.  Not the chaps playing in the Hook and Eye or a couple of the better players, but the average member out there shooting in the nineties, or higher.

Bob


Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2009, 01:10:14 PM »
Bill McBride wrote earlier that,  "I seem to recall reading that the site of the proposed tee was literally wiped out in a typical winter storm not long after Cypress Point was built."

Bill, it must have been the most cataclysmic storm of all time because that tee base is composed of several thousand tons of granite. Your comment on the removal of one tree makes the most sense.

Bob

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2009, 01:47:00 PM »

I'd be curious to know if such a plan were now brought into motion would the overall qualities of CP be further enhanced. No doubt the course is rated among the five best in the USA now -- but it seems to me -- and a number of others -- who can forget the great Jimmy Demaret line on CP -- that the present concluding hole is just not the kind of ending one would have hope for -- clearly the good Doctor and Ms. Hollins understood in contemplating such a rear tee position.

One has to wonder if other "non" tees or other design elements -- originally thought of by the designer and his collaborative team -- would have changed (for the better) such designs. I've played CP twice and always felt the 18th was a rather lame concluding hole to such a fantastic layout. Possibly the "new" tee may be brought back into the picture ?

Bob,

I'll take note of players in the future.

But, that being said, I do not love the eighteenth and still consider it one of the weak holes on the course.  However, I do not think it a bad hole or a slouch by any means.  Surely your knowledge of the course vastly surpasses mine but this is an opinion I have formed over ten or so rounds out there and not overnight.

Matt,

I've been thinking about this for some time now.  These are all really good questions, and with such a head scratcher as the eighteenth, I believe they are all legitimate as well.

However, while a new tee on the rock behind the current tee would have been astounding view wise, I don't believe it would add anything to the hole, and in fact make it worse.  Here is why.

1) The hole is good as it is.  Some people don't like to believe it, but after 17 holes in a row with many ways to play all of them, Mackenzie finally just requires the player to execute.  He puts forth two doable shots; one is a 200 to 220 yard shot that must hit the fairway, followed by a demanding uphill approach with a short iron.  If a player has played well in his round, they should be able to back it up on 18 with a par.  I don't believe Mackenzie wanted this hole to be a slouch, and it is not.
2) At 343 yards from the back tees, it follows Cypress's trend of par-4's under 400 yards.  Is there any other golf course with such elaborate and well designed par-4's under 400 yards?  I have never seen one.
3) The tee shot from 60 plus yards back would just be too demanding.  For most it would be a good driver to have any chance.  And just the fact the tee would be out on the rocks would incline many players to play it.  The hole would just be too hard.
4) Since 1928, when the course opened, there have been just two or three tees moved back (I need to research more to find that exact number).  However, those were minor changes and the course is essentially presented just as it was when it opened, with regards to length.  There is something to be said and respected for such a well preserved golf course.

For these reasons I don't like the back tee that would have been on the rock.

But some other things about the eighteenth, I believe it is really under appreciated in discussion of the course.  It's important to realize that not every hole needs to provide an abundance of options.  Not only does it force the player to execute his golf shots, but it adds diversity to the course.  While the tee shot is unique and is some senses a bit odd, it is for one one of a kind and in my opinion that makes it special.

Also, I believe the second shot is really good.  The first time player will play to the right of the green, fearing his second might him the tree on the left and short of the green when in fact it is easily carried.  The visual deception is fun and downright a smart ploy that spices up the second shot.  The green is severly pitched and is one of the most difficult on the course.  It follows the prospect of the entire hole; that one must hit good shots and execute, in order to finish his round and earn his score.

I like the eighteenth a lot.  And Matt, to anser your questions, I don't believe the addition of the back tee would add much to the hole.

Jordan

Jordan,

Methinks you have fallen in love too quickly with the 18th at CPC.

Do me a favor, as you get more loops around the course with Members, tell me how many of them can get a shot over THE tee in front of them.  Not the chaps playing in the Hook and Eye or a couple of the better players, but the average member out there shooting in the nineties, or higher.

Bob



Bob,

I'll take note of players in the future.

But, that being said, I do not love the eighteenth and consider it the lowest quality hole on the course.  I just don't think it a slouch or worthy of all the criticism it gets.  It is an original holes with its own merits.  I do believe its originality, second shot, and green make it a good hole and I understand where you come from in regards to the tee shot.  In fact I have seen already several players unable to make it over the tree you mention.

Your knowledge of the course far surpasses mine and I have great respect for your thoughts and opinions regarding it.  I'll be sure to take note in the future of how others play the hole and see if that affects my opinion of it.

But I still don't like the idea of a back tee on the rocks.

Cheers,
Jordan

Brett Morris

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Re: The Missing 18th Tee at CP
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2009, 03:43:03 PM »
Bob,

I don't want to get too far off topic, but do you know why the fairway bunkers on 18 are no longer there?

There are others missing, and modified, around the course as well (4, 14, 17).

Brett.

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