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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Riviera Country Club (Pictures)
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2009, 10:33:16 PM »
I'm a big fan of Riviera, but, don't some of the bunkers in the photos look like the bland, circular before pictures in the California Club thread ?

Kenny Baer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera Country Club (Pictures)
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2009, 11:06:05 PM »
"For those newbies that are interested in learning the finer points of GCA, the above fwy bunker is an example of something I suspect Thomas would never have done. Any newbies want to guess what is so wrong?" ADAM CLAYMAN

I will take a shot

1)I would say the trees to the right of the tee just off the tee box diminish the risk/reward aspect of the hole by forcing the golfer to play a particular angle on a hole that was intended to be of cape qualities (giving the golfer options as to how much he/she wants to bite off)

2) The bunker protects a ball from going into further trouble instead of being a true hazard it is more of a safeguard against a pulled tee ball.

3) The trees on the left of the bunker (hard to tell from this angle) could create a double hazard, playing out of a bunker around or over trees.

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera Country Club (Pictures)
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2009, 01:44:23 AM »
What is so wrong? Thomas would have never built the bunker...he would have said "hey, Billy Boy, get your ass over here and build me a bunker"

Riviera is one of the finest designs one would ever want to play. Strategy, balance of holes, variety of shots, demands on ball striking are neverending. I was unable to find any true negatives about the golf course, and that puts it on a very short list. Why/how this course is not discussed/mentioned in the same breath as the other 15-20 architecturally significant US courses a) on this site and b) by the magazines is a surprise to me.  Also, I'll vote for Kikuya, as it is synonymous with playing year round golf in shorts in this nape of the woods......

Can our GCA Gods ever be appeased? I often wonder what would happen "if" they could get Fabio Marzo out of there. But then again, would they just turn around and hire a rack-whacker like Dick Wilson? Or would they hire the correct people? It shall be interesting, once the restoration at LACC is complete and the mob's pitch is rising.

Let's all remember that it could be worse...drive down the street and visit Fabio's clinic at Bel Air!
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera Country Club (Pictures)
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2009, 01:51:25 AM »
Kenny, Thanks for trying. At least there's one who is interested.

Please don't read any tone into my response, there is none.

I was specifically referring to the fairway bunker. Not the trees. But since you mentioned them, the trees on the left basically remove any normal golfer's notion of going left. I suspect when the hole was built those trees were not there and the openness was massive. The benefits of openness are several but the one I'm partial to is the theory that a good golfer has serious doubts or uncertainty as to where to go, without the definition created by trees and narrow fairways. Think ANGC original principles here.

I will have to point out the error of referring to this hole as a risk reward hole. There's really no such thing, technically. There are risk reward shots, not holes.

But, the issue with the Marzolf version of the Thomas bunker is how it flows against the natural flow of that property. Thomas originally built the course without one feature that was built in this manner. The newer scalloped edges to the cross bunker on #10 also has elements that are built up against the flow.

I'm not representing myself as an expert on the subject,(or Riviera) I'm relaying what I remember reading back when this site was more focused on GCA and these issues came up. Also, the day I met Ben Crenshaw he went out of his way to explain to me how, and what, Thomas had done at Riviera.
Hopefully, someone with better recollection, and understanding, will correct any mis-statements I've made in this post.

As an aside, the green on this hole is not an original either. It is completely out of character with the rest of the greens and is another thing Thomas would never have built here.

I'll reiterate that these few examples of mistakes take very little away from the golf course because there is so much still right about the golf course.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Michael Robin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera Country Club (Pictures)
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2009, 02:17:56 AM »
David Ober - 4 plays probably a few yards downhill, but I never play it for anything but level. The prevailing wind usually shows up around 10am and it is directly into your face causing the hole to play about 245 yards from 10am to noon and then about 255 after that. You must have caught it in the am or in a Santa Ana.

Bob H - The late Ron Rhoads was the Pro when I was getting started there in 1977. Mac Jr. was still around and playing some good golf.

David Stamm - Not too much sleep these days. Twins just turned 1 and work is fortunately constant.

Kyle H - Thanks. I'll try to contact you soon.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera Country Club (Pictures)
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2009, 02:50:34 PM »
Having had the pleasure of golfing at Riviera, the standout feature of the course is the flow of the holes. I had been told over the years that Riviera is one of the great routings in golf, making the best possible use of its property. After only one round I certainly cannot comment on that in an informed way, but the holes do move around quite nicely. I was surprised at how many greens had interesting movement to them. There were some greens where some of the work of recent years was fairly obvious, but other than being visually out of character they didn't seem to detract from the way the holes play IMO. I could not have asked for a better course guide than Michael who was a wealth of information and enhanced the wonderful experience that I had at Riviera. I would have to agree with Jon that the course doesn't seem to have many weaknesses and certainly belongs in any conversation of great golf courses.
   As some have pointed out there are some aesthetic features that I can understand people not caring for, but I didn't encounter much that seemed to be lacking functionally in how the course tests your game.
    Barney knocking one close on #10 has to be pretty high on the highlight reel.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera Country Club (Pictures)
« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2009, 08:26:11 AM »


For those newbies that are interested in learning the finer points of GCA, the above fwy bunker is an example of something I suspect Thomas would never have done. Any newbies want to guess what is so wrong?

Despite very few examples of questionable alterations, Riviera is a great golf course. The epitome of a sum being greater than it's parts. Very appropriate that Merion is being discussed because they are similar in that regard. Chip, have you played here?  ;)

The trees on the left side of 13, off the tee shot, are unnecessarily constricting. Without them, the openness would add tremendously to ones senses, and uncertainty, evident in the very early pictures of the property, spread throughout the tremendous clubhouse.    

Sorry for bringing back this thread!
I just needed to answer...

Adam:

Maybe because Thomas didn't like to build bunkers on the outside of the fairway? Or because that bunker is too large for his time?

Nick Church

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera Country Club (Pictures)
« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2009, 01:31:07 PM »
My guess / answer... because the bunker would "protect" / prevent off-line tee shots from settling into or behind the tree line.  The tree is no longer a realistic hazard if the bunker protects wayward balls from entering its boundary.

I'll accept as much red ink as is customary to a noob.

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Riviera Country Club (Pictures)
« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2009, 06:06:08 PM »
Actually the original design had a fairway bunker on #7 in the same approximate location.  Put in by Thomas/Bell.  It did look much different than what Marzolf/McDonald Constr. built there now.

It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Rick Sides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera Country Club (Pictures)
« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2009, 04:34:33 PM »
Rivera looks awesome.  Does anyone know if they ever have any charity events there?

Peter Ferlicca

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera Country Club (Pictures)
« Reply #60 on: May 17, 2009, 04:40:49 PM »
Rivera looks awesome.  Does anyone know if they ever have any charity events there?
Rick,

I do know that have tons of outside events here, on mondays they almost always have an outside outing.  But you have to play the temporary greens on 10 and 16 which is a big bummer.

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