[John Mayhugh]

Don't you love the flow of 15-17?  Each of those holes just makes you want to head back to the tee and give it another shot.  The drive on 17 is not as easy as the width makes it seem.  The center bunkers and huge drop-off beyond didn't inspire a committed tee shot from me.  I hope to get a chance to play from some more forward tees sometime to experience the "mega boost."  It's still a lot of fun to hit the second shot down the valley as well. 

I don't think 16 & 17 could use the land any better.

[Tim Bert]

I can't think of many 6 hole stretches I'd rather play over and over again than #12 through #17 at Kingsley.

I'd say it compares well to #4 through #9 at Pebble Beach in a less scenic, more raw and rugged, less appealing to the masses kind of way!      

[George Freeman]

Prior to the changes, I always thought the 17th was the hole that least fit the feel of the Kingsley Club and had much more of the "typical" northern michigan course feel.  This was almost exclusively caused by the tightness of the hole, which was pretty cramped by trees and thick foliage on both sides.  It was the only hole on the course where you got that claustrophobic feeling which is so common on courses in northern MI and MI in general.  Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of exacting shots elsewhere on the course, but none that created the feeling which I felt on 17.  In my few plays it tended to inflict tight and unconfident/uncomfortable swings (which was warranted and not an optical illusion), especially from the tee.

Needless to say, I REALLY like the opening up of the hole.  I commented extensively on the topic on a prior thread produced specifically for this topic, so I won't talk about it too much more here.  Bottom line, I think the changes make 17 fit in MUCH better with the flow and feel of the rest of the course.  The transition back into the open holes of the the front nine and 10 & 18 works much better as well IMO:  16 was always pretty open, but then you hit 17 which was tight.  Now the sequence of holes meld together so well...the flow is really a special acomplishment.

The topography of the hole is awesome; Mike used it wonderfully and I think the changes only enhance the characteristics of the land.     

The green is really treacherous with its teirs and steep back to front slope which can feed balls all the way back down the hill if played too agressively from the rear of the green.  I know I've said this for every hole, but the quality of the 17th green complex follows in the footsteps of the rest of the course: fantastic!

Here are some pics of the site pre changes; it's amazing how different the hole looks and will predictably play!

The two bunkers on left side of the fairway are now squarely in the middle of the fairway


Once again, the two bunkers on the left are now right in the middle of the landing zone, what a difference from Tim's pics! (this pic is from the forward tees, it felt much tighter from the two other tees)


Look how much more open the hole is now, especially behind the green!


This will now be in the middle/left of the fairway (notice how the tree clearing behind the green had taken place)




Many of the trees behind and around the green were removed


Compare this to Tim's picture!  This picture does a very poor job of capturing the movement in the green; there is quite a bit!


One more from behind

[Buck Wolter]

Here's the link to the thread with the changes to #17

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35373.0.html

[ed_getka]

Prior to the changes, I always thought the 17th was the hole that least fit the feel of the Kingsley Club and had much more of the "typical" northern michigan course feel.  This was almost exclusively caused by the tightness of the hole, which was pretty cramped by trees and thick foliage on both sides.  It was the only hole on the course where you got that claustrophobic feeling which is so common on courses in northern MI and MI in general.  Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of exacting shots elsewhere on the course, but none that created the feeling which I felt on 17.  In my few plays it tended to inflict tight and unconfident/uncomfortable swings (which was warranted and not an optical illusion), especially from the tee.

    Good synopsis. I could never get comfortable on that tee, although I didn't feel so much that the hole was out of character with the rest of the course. My main issue with the hole was that the second shot doesn't really require much thought. There is no way I can get home in two playing appropriate tees and with the original presentation I just hit a shot that left me in the 100-150 yard range.
     I will be interested to see how the widened version of the hole plays. The one change I haven't cared for on the course was the removal of the trees behind #17 green. The green was always in good shape but if there were shade issues for Dan Lucas then I could see why it was done. Everywhere else I feel like the tree removal improved an already great course.
     The uphill nature of the approach shot without being able to see the green surface is when this hole gets interesting for me. You are cognizant of not wanting to leave your approach too short to a pin from the middle to the front, and have it roll back down, so you invariably end up above the hole and with the tiers and contours you have some work to do to make par.

[Mike_DeVries]

I am really surprised to hear that #17 is really that much more "narrow" than #1.  I'm not sure how, but I wonder if the fact that the left half wasn't quite mown down to fairway length distorted the view.  I would have bet money it was wider than you said, so thanks for saving me some cash!

Tim,

I was out at Kingsley with Dan Lucas today, looking at the fairway cut and bunker finishing for the left side of the fairway . . . and a correction is in order.  From right to left, the right fairway is 40 yards wide at the landing area just short of the ridge, in line with the middle bunkers, then 20 yards of bunkers and rough, then 25 yards to the left bunker.  If you go back a little closer to the tee, it is 38 yards of fairway, 20 yards of bunker/rough, then 40-45 yards of fairway, with a complete width of about 105-110 yards between the outer native rough areas.  Short of the middle bunkers it is probably 85-90 yards of fairway -- I didn't pace that section.

Down the hill, it is 80-85 yards wide at the bottom and pinching in tighter as you get closer to the bunker short of the approach.  I didn't pace the section just short of the bunker, probably about 50 yards wide.

Mike

[Tim Bert]

I am really surprised to hear that #17 is really that much more "narrow" than #1.  I'm not sure how, but I wonder if the fact that the left half wasn't quite mown down to fairway length distorted the view.  I would have bet money it was wider than you said, so thanks for saving me some cash!

Tim,

I was out at Kingsley with Dan Lucas today, looking at the fairway cut and bunker finishing for the left side of the fairway . . . and a correction is in order.  From right to left, the right fairway is 40 yards wide at the landing area just short of the ridge, in line with the middle bunkers, then 20 yards of bunkers and rough, then 25 yards to the left bunker.  If you go back a little closer to the tee, it is 38 yards of fairway, 20 yards of bunker/rough, then 40-45 yards of fairway, with a complete width of about 105-110 yards between the outer native rough areas.  Short of the middle bunkers it is probably 85-90 yards of fairway -- I didn't pace that section.

Down the hill, it is 80-85 yards wide at the bottom and pinching in tighter as you get closer to the bunker short of the approach.  I didn't pace the section just short of the bunker, probably about 50 yards wide.

Mike

How is the left side coming along?  Is it all being cut to the same height now?  It was getting close when we were there, but the left and the right were certainly distinguishable.

[Mike_DeVries]

I am really surprised to hear that #17 is really that much more "narrow" than #1.  I'm not sure how, but I wonder if the fact that the left half wasn't quite mown down to fairway length distorted the view.  I would have bet money it was wider than you said, so thanks for saving me some cash!

Tim,

I was out at Kingsley with Dan Lucas today, looking at the fairway cut and bunker finishing for the left side of the fairway . . . and a correction is in order.  From right to left, the right fairway is 40 yards wide at the landing area just short of the ridge, in line with the middle bunkers, then 20 yards of bunkers and rough, then 25 yards to the left bunker.  If you go back a little closer to the tee, it is 38 yards of fairway, 20 yards of bunker/rough, then 40-45 yards of fairway, with a complete width of about 105-110 yards between the outer native rough areas.  Short of the middle bunkers it is probably 85-90 yards of fairway -- I didn't pace that section.

Down the hill, it is 80-85 yards wide at the bottom and pinching in tighter as you get closer to the bunker short of the approach.  I didn't pace the section just short of the bunker, probably about 50 yards wide.

Mike

How is the left side coming along?  Is it all being cut to the same height now?  It was getting close when we were there, but the left and the right were certainly distinguishable.

Tim,
Yes, bringing down the fairway cut across the hole -- hence the reason for Dan and I to review the fairway lines and bunker edges.
Mike

[John Kirk]

I'm already on record as being very skeptical of this change, because I feel the long ball hitter gains an enormous advantage with the change.  Big boys can just swing for the fences and play it driver, 6-iron, though the approach from the left will still be a tougher angle.

Crafty experienced players like myself will still be stuck short of the bunkers, playing driver, mid-iron, wedge.

There's nothing wrong with a hole that greatly benefits the long player, but both #14 and #15 also do that.

I liked it the way it was before, so I'm counting on Mike DeVries to have made the right call here.

[Mike_DeVries]

I'm already on record as being very skeptical of this change, because I feel the long ball hitter gains an enormous advantage with the change.  Big boys can just swing for the fences and play it driver, 6-iron, though the approach from the left will still be a tougher angle.

Crafty experienced players like myself will still be stuck short of the bunkers, playing driver, mid-iron, wedge.

There's nothing wrong with a hole that greatly benefits the long player, but both #14 and #15 also do that.

I liked it the way it was before, so I'm counting on Mike DeVries to have made the right call here.

John,

No problem with you being skeptical -- I appreciate your frankness and look forward to your thoughts on it as you play it more and more.

I don't think it will be a big advantage to the bigger hitters, particularly when all the tees, besides the back, are moved to the left and re-aligned with the expanded fairway.  The angle from the back tee is narrower for the left side gap and there are bunkers looming over there, so it is not a gimme by any means -- in fact, I think the guys that were hitting it over from the back tee will still be doing so, but they still have to manage their game since it isn't the type of shot where they just bomb it over the top of the ridge (I have never witnessed a ball clearing the bunkers and hitting the downslope of the big hill (not saying it hasn't happened, just isn't common).  If that becomes the standard for the big hitters, we also have the opportunity of easily adding another back tee about 25-30 yards behind and to the right of the current tee -- that has been available for when necessary and/or desired.  By contrast, shifting the other tees to the left provides better separation with #16 and gives a better choice of the two sides to play for -- this was left out in the construction last year due to time constraints, cost, and impact to play areas.  I am very excited about how this has turned out and it will be fun to see how people play it.

As to #14 and #15, I think 14 definitely is a big advantage for the big hitters, but it is not unreachable for average hitters to get there in two if they get it on the right hillside with a running trajectory that bounds the ball down further -- I am not a big hitter by any standard but have made it to the green (or pin high) on several occasions.  Also, with the new back tee, the big boys will have to give a little more and the angle is not as receptive for where they are starting, so maybe that will alter it somewhat.  On 15, it is really hard, no matter what, and a good recovery game around the green is the important issue.  Certainly, if you can bomb it, it helps, but they also have a much narrower slot to hit to, as the balls over the ridge kick right and can be in or blocked by the trees -- at the Opening of the course, a friend in my foursome is long and he complained that he got blocked out by the trees, even though he was in the fairway and hit it 50+ yards past everyone else in the group!     Tough luck, Buddy -- next time shape the shot better or play down a club . . .  I like it when they have to think a bit, instead of just killing the ball.

Cheers,
Mike

[Mike Hendren]

Wait, I thought John Kirk IS a big hitter.

Really can't wait to the event in June.  Looking forward to meeting you Mike and proving that not all Tennesseans are architectural suck-ups like my boy Tim.

Tim, fantastic thread in all seriousness.  Thanks for your contribution.

Bogey

[Tim Bert]

Really can't wait to the event in June.  Looking forward to meeting you Mike and proving that not all Tennesseans are architectural suck-ups like my boy Tim.

Bogey

Bogey - you are the anti-suck-up, so we balance each other well.

Wish I could be there in person to watch you try to manufacture artificial criticisms of the course like you did with another of my favorites in the Dunes near the Pacific!   

The course is a blast and it is on the shortest of lists as one of my favorites - how's that for sucking up?   

I've been trying to convince my wife that Traverse City is a marvelous family vacation spot since my visit last year.

Have fun.

[Tim Bert]

#18 is a par four
422 from the gold tee
386 from the blue tee

The 18th hole is somewhat of a transition hole back from the woods to the open ground.  The left side is tree-lined though the woods shouldn't really come into play.  The right side has the wild rough that is found throughout the course, but no trees (I believe it was originally tree-lined on the right side as well.)  As you get closer to the hole, it begins to clear up on the left side as well, bringing the golfer full circle on this excellent journey.

The fairway is extremely lumpy with plenty of rolls from tee to green.  There are a number of spots where the difference between a blind shot to the green vs. a visible one is only a matter of yards.  As one approaches the hole, the fairway begins to funnel in with a few bunkers tightening the approach. 

The green is well protected, both by bunkers, grass, and movement in the green itself.  There are bunkers guarding the front right and also the middle-to-back left section of the green.  Given the length of the hole, the surrounding native grasses must certainly snag a wayward shot or two throughout the course of the day.  Finally, the green begins with an upslope and goes up and over to somewhat of a bowl in the middle section.  There is another up and over near the back.  My impression was that the front and back both play a bit like a domed green, while the middle pin locations would likely be more accessible as some of the contours will funnel the ball toward the hole.

If this hole didn't happen on the tail end of the one of the wildest rides in golf, then it would probably be jaw-dropping.  As it stands, it is a fitting finish to a wonderful day of golf - and a world class back nine in particular.

Kingsley has it all.  I am envious of all of you that have the opportunity to join Mike and John this summer, and wish I could join you.  This is a must-play, and once you play the course it quickly becomes a must-return.  I've been hinting to my wife about family vacations in Traverse City since my trip last September.

Here's the view from the tee


From the right side of the fairway


Another view of the fairway, this one from the middle


Here's the front view of the green


A shot of the green with the middle left bunker looming.  The first fairway is in the distance.


Looking back on the green makes the approach appear even tighter than it feels


Another one looking back on the hole - this one further removed from the green with the surrounds in full view


One last look at the green - this one from the 1st tee

[Jon Heise]

I might be crazy, but I got about the same vibe with this green as I did with #13 at Tobacco Road.  Little hills on the side with an opening in the middle.  And tres dangerous!

[George Freeman]

I might be crazy, but I got about the same vibe with this green as I did with #13 at Tobacco Road.  Little hills on the side with an opening in the middle.  And tres dangerous!

Jon,

I haven't played Tabacco Road, but from the pictures I've seen, it looks quite a bit more blind than Kingsley's 18th.  If you manage to find the high right side of the fairway at KC, which is the harder side to find due to bunkers and the slope of the fairway, you're rewarded with a very clear and somewhat elevated look into the green.  If you play defensive off the tee, your ball will most likely funnel down into the lower left bowl, and from there you will have a semi or completely blind approach into the green over the hill sloping in from the left (into a very tricky and slick green). 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but #13 at Tobacco looked pretty blind from most areas in the fairway, but I can definitely see where you're coming from.  Not to say that #13 at TR looks bad...I always thought it was one really cool looking hole that must be a blast to play!

- George

[Jon Heise]

I thought about it more last night, turns out they're pretty close!

Dont want to be short, dont want to be long, dont want to be left or right, and even hitting the green doesnt mean youre gonna see your ball!

[ed_getka]

I don't find much similarity between #18 Kingsley and #13 Tobacco Road. The TR green sits perpendicular to the fairway and it quite shallow regardless of approach angle. At Kingsley the green sits on a 45 degree angle to the middle of the fairway.
    The thing that I really don't like about #13 TR is that it is a par 5 and no mortal would even think about trying to hit a fairway wood into that shallow green from 200+ yards. Imagine hitting fairway wood into #12 at Augusta.
     John Moore showed me the trick to #13, aim way right and BOMB it over the trees and leave yourself a 150 yard shot in.

#18 at Kingsley is a great finisher with the exception of most drives funneling down to the left side of the fairway due to the tilt of the fairway down to the left. The angle of the green with the surrounding mounds and green contours demand that you play an excellent shot to get around the hole. No scraping it up the fairway and expecting the ground to funnel your ball in to the hole, as it should be for the final hole IMO. A great finishing hole on a GREAT course.

[Lyne Morrison]

Tim - I just wanted to add my thanks for this super thread.

I was not familiar with Kingsley previously but am now absolutely charmed and intrigued by this layout.

Many thanks to you for the time and effort involved in pulling the journey together - and well done Mike DeVries - inspiring indeed.

Cheers -- Lyne

[George Freeman]

The 18th at the Kingsley club is a great finisher to a fantastic course, especially since some of the tree clearing they have done behind 17 and between 10 and 18.  Standing on the tee, it appears to be very difficult to keep the ball on the upper right side of the fairway, which gives you the best look at the green (if not the best angle).  And that assumption prooves to be correct: with Kingsley's firm and fast running fairways it is really tough to keep a ball on the top tier.  Probably the easiest way would be to lay back with a fairway wood or long iron, but then you have the difficult task of going at this green from further away.

If you do find the lower collecting area with your drive, you'll have a semi to completely blind second witha short iron over the hill flowing into the hole from the left.  The movement in the 18th fairway is truley something to behold.

This green almost has two separate bowls in it, with a spine running perpendicular to play in the middle.  It can create some very interesting shots whether you find the green with your second or not. 

I really like how the hole looks now that the trees between 18 and 10 have been removed.  We talked about the great transition from open field to more wooded land when we were on 10 and 11, and the same thing can be said again at 18.  A new bunker complex has been added on the right hand side of the fairway since the trees have been taken out.

The 18th green finds its way back to the fantastic area near the clubhouse, which includes the 1st tees and fairway, 9 green, and 10 tees and fairway, all in plain view and quite a site to behold late in the evening when the sun is setting.

I'm sad to see this thread nearing its end just as it is bitter-sweet playing down the 18th knowing the round is coming to a close.

Some pictures from the website:

Diagram doesn't show fairway bunkers on right


this picture captures some of the movement in the 18th fairway, notice the trees are still present on the right




with trees


without trees


shows green from left side looking across with 10th fairway in background


One more of the course routing to finish it up



Thanks to all have contributed to this thread (Tim and Mike especially!!).  I hope to see many of you at Kingsley Club this June for the GCA outing; it's a course everyone needs to see.

- George

[Mike_DeVries]

I haven't been to Tobacco Road, so I can't comment on the similarity of KC's 18th to TR's 13th.

The 18th plays down an undulating valley and across to or back up to a green set in an open amphitheater below the first tees and clubhouse setting.  The landing area rolls dramatically in big waves and then sweeps down to the left valley but many balls stay on the upper part / right side.  Choosing the high road on the right gets you above the green for the left front pins or to carry the big front bunker for pins in the bowl in the back.  I think the valley on the left is a better angle to attack the back right pin positions, and you are looking up at the bowled landform more directly, taking the left bunker more out of play unless you pull it to that side.  A big hitter who takes it down the middle / right middle will usually go over the last big roll and find a flat spot 90-100 yards from the green, but a slight push or fade may find the bunkers or gunch on the right while a pull may end up in an awkward lie in a mowed rough bowl on the left.

The left hillside is very tall and covered with trees, blocking any wind from a southerly direction, and it can be difficult to judge the effect on your ball as it gets past the trees and hill for the last 80-100 yards.  The right hillside between 10 and 18 was originally treed and this really created a tunnel-like effect and re-emergence into the openness of the front nine but the fescue certainly didn’t like it and the transition and blending of the two nines is much better without them.

One of my favorite shots on the course is a low punched iron shot from the high right hillside into the approach, watching it catch the slope off the front left bank and turn into the green– truly a high feeling of satisfaction when pulled off at the end of a round!

The green is a true punchbowl, the third on the course along with the 4th and 5th holes, and relatively small in size at less than 4500 square feet and skinny, angled into the landform from front left to back right.  The front section is domed with a kicker bank off the side of the bowl that goes up to the first tee.  Then the surface sweeps down into a middle bowl with a shelf at the back center of the green.  The right and back right sweeps up into the amphitheater that goes up to the clubhouse and there are frequently chairs or benches there with observers commenting on your play or match as it finishes up – great fun!

PS  I missed your thread before sending mine, George.  You and Ed mentioned that most drives end up down in the valley on the left and that is not my experience.  I would say that at most 50% of the drives are there in a foursome -- in fact, I can't remember 3 out of 4 down there, although I do recall 1 on the right, 1 on the left hill before going over, and 2 in the valley.  The pin position makes a big difference for me where to place the drive and I talked about the advantages above -- George and Tim are correct in that the view from the right (if you are on a crest and not in a trough) is down upon the green, although the back right of the bowl will be blocked by the front bunker and curve of the amphitheater. 

PPS  Many thanks to all for the great comments and discussion!  I have really enjoyed it and look forward to all who are making the trek in late June.

Cheers!

[John Kirk]

Let's also mention that the back left bunker gets lots of action.  It's very tough to hold the left third of the green.

Co-founder and course chairman Edward Walker deserves a lot of credit.  He is an excellent steward of this fine "little" golf club.  Tip your hat to Ed when you see him.

[Buck Wolter]

Let's also mention that the back left bunker gets lots of action.  It's very tough to hold the left third of the green.

Co-founder and course chairman Edward Walker deserves a lot of credit.  He is an excellent steward of this fine "little" golf club.  Tip your hat to Ed when you see him.

John- I was re-reading the thread and I believe you owe us a couple things before this thread ends .

1)You were going to re-visit a big hitting opponent on #17.

2)There was also a discussion on the difficulty of Kingsley that you requested be put off until later.

[John Kirk]

Let's also mention that the back left bunker gets lots of action.  It's very tough to hold the left third of the green.

Co-founder and course chairman Edward Walker deserves a lot of credit.  He is an excellent steward of this fine "little" golf club.  Tip your hat to Ed when you see him.

John- I was re-reading the thread and I believe you owe us a couple things before this thread ends .

1)You were going to re-visit a big hitting opponent on #17.

2)There was also a discussion on the difficulty of Kingsley that you requested be put off until later.

Hi Buck,

I did mention my skepticism of the changes at #17 during that discussion.

Gee, should we complete the discussion by talking about the course difficulty.  I think it is a hard golf course, but Mike Devries, plus some dual members at Crystal Downs and Kingsley say Crystal is 2-3 shots harder.  Last year was the first year had sustained success playing Kingsley, where my scores were close to my handicap.

My lifetime average at Kingsley is about 79, but last year I was closer to 76.  Maybe I'm getting the hang of it.

[Buck Wolter]

Thanks John -
I look forward to reading your posts so was just trying to get a bit more from you.

In asking about the difficulty my thought was that after looking at 18 individual pieces it would be interesting to have some discussions about the 'whole' rather than trying to end on a less than positive note. After my initial couple rounds over several years I felt it was one of the hardest courses I had ever played, with a few more rounds and some understanding of the course I think it becomes much more playable and enjoyable. Danger still lurks and there are plenty of chances to make a big number but you can think your way around and often finish the round with the same ball you started with even as a 13 handicapper like me. I'm not sure you could ask for more than that.

[Stu Grant]

BUMP - less than a week until the Kingsley GCA get-together, time to review this thread again.

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