[Jimmy Muratt]

Going at a right hole location from the west tee is doable but a very risky play, especially when downwind.  When the hole is downwind from the west tee, the smart play is to the left front side of the green.  Sure, it's still a difficult two-putt....but you are eliminating the big number unless you do something foolish on the green.  Playing into the front bunker is not a bad play either when the pin is right. 

There is nothing wrong with not being able to fire at some flags under certain conditions.  This does in no way make a hole "unfair" and in need of "modification".  It makes you play with discipline and restraint.

[Kalen Braley]

Tim,

Is it time for #10 now?    While hole 9 could probably be its own thread, I'm ready to see the back side loop.

[Tim Bert]

Tim,

Is it time for #10 now?    While hole 9 could probably be its own thread, I'm ready to see the back side loop.

It's coming.  If someone could get my children to go to bed on time once in a while, then it might come quicker!

I'm going to have #10 posted before the weekend, possibly later this evening.

[Tim Bert]

#10 is a par four

446 from the gold tee
393 from the blue tee

Welcome to the back nine.  While the front nine has much more continuity in the same sense that exists at the front nine at Crystal Downs, I'm pretty sure I find the back nine more appealing than the front nine in total.

The tenth kicks off the back with a stern test for the mid-to-high handicapper - a long par 4 that plays slightly uphill.  Now I'm going to get some grief for saying this, but I think this is the least interesting and least memorable hole on the course for me (remember least is a relative term, and this is just a personal opinion!)  For me, the most important purpose it served was to eat up some land in order to get me to perhaps the best stretch of holes on the golf course (that being the rest of the back nine!!)

The tee shot is intimidating from the back tees.  The back tee sits adjacent to the practice area, across a small road from the rest of the 10th hole.  There is plenty of room in the landing area, and the carry isn't unreasonable, but combined with a tee that plays uphill the less than confident golfer may find that it looks like a "narrower" chute than was faced on some of the front nine holes.  The blue tee provides a better view of the fairway since it is elevated and it is much easier on the psyche, though ironically it may lead to a tighter landing area since the bunkers are more in play for the moderate hitter.

There is plenty of bunkering, both along the sides of the fairway as well as around the green.  The approach plays slightly uphill to a sufficiently sized green (much of which is obscured from view on the approach) with a good bit of movement.  This hole, while it won't yield many birdies to the average player, doesn't feel like it would play host to as many disasters as some of the holes on the front nine (or many of those to follow.)  In general, it felt like a tough test, but not as much of a match play thrill as many of the other holes on the property. 

Since I've revealed my bias, I'm going to shut up and allow others to do this hole justice.

From the back tee


From the net tee forward


Another view from that tee, but with a little better look at the fairway


A shot from the fairway


A look at the approach to the green from the right side


A look at the green from behind the hole

[ed_getka]

Ed,

After rereading the posts regarding the west tee, the misses are left, short left, or short straight in the
bunker(s). Given the same right hole location, which provides the best opportunity for a three? Is an up-and-down from the bunker easier than trying to two putt from the left side (or plateau you mentioned)?

Wyatt,
    Missing left is not an option from the west tee. If I was playing conservatively from the west tee I would try to end up short on the green in the bowl. I think that would be the best option for a 3. One would have to have a pro level sand game to have a better chance of making 3 from the bunkers. From the west tee if the pin is back right I think the only two options are short on the green or go for the pin.

[Kalen Braley]

Is that an alternate hole in the 1st pic?  Perhaps a 19th hole?

[Joe Hancock]

Is that an alternate hole in the 1st pic?  Perhaps a 19th hole?

A chipping green in the practice area.....but hey, anything's possible!

Joe

[JC Jones]

I like #10 but probably not for the reasons the architect would appreciate.  I dont feel that it is an easy hole by any means, but it does provide for some relief, albeit short, after 9 and before heading to the rest of the back nine.

[John Mayhugh]

I like #10 but probably not for the reasons the architect would appreciate.  I dont feel that it is an easy hole by any means, but it does provide for some relief, albeit short, after 9 and before heading to the rest of the back nine.

I thought the same thing.

Weren't there originally a lot of trees between the 10th & 18th fairways?  When were those removed?

[Adam Clayman]

I'm curious about the shape of the three circular bunkers on the left. Why were they made circular?

[Brian Joines]

I like #10 but probably not for the reasons the architect would appreciate.  I dont feel that it is an easy hole by any means, but it does provide for some relief, albeit short, after 9 and before heading to the rest of the back nine.

I thought the same thing.

Weren't there originally a lot of trees between the 10th & 18th fairways?  When were those removed?

I know a lot of trees were removed to the right of the 18th fairway. I think Kingsley's website show some older pictures with these tress in place.

[George Freeman]

I like #10 but probably not for the reasons the architect would appreciate.  I dont feel that it is an easy hole by any means, but it does provide for some relief, albeit short, after 9 and before heading to the rest of the back nine.

I thought the same thing.

Weren't there originally a lot of trees between the 10th & 18th fairways?  When were those removed?

Yes, there originally was pretty thick forest between 10 & 18 (you can reference the course map I posted earlier).  This is a guess, but I think they were removed sometime around 2005-2006?

I also believe they added some bunkers on the right side of both 10 & 18 after the trees were cleared.

Mike would know the specifics...

[ed_getka]

#10 looks much better without the trees that used to seperate it from #18. It used to be such a wrenching change from the front nine that the first time there I almost did a double-take thinking maybe I wasn't on the course anymore.
    One thing I don't like about this hole is the way the hole feels flanked by containment mounding, which fortunately in this case is natural I believe. It has a fantastic green though.
    It just occured to me that this transition between nines is not unlike Crystal Downs. The front nine has been grinding you up most likely but is fantastic golf, both have a tough par 3 #9, then #10 is a breather hole that doesn't have a lot going on until you get to the green. Fortunately the similarity ends there as #11 at KC is WAY easier than #11 at CD.
    Mike has great movement on #10 green which I think is one of his gifts as an architect, the way the movement of the green flows so well on many of his holes.

[Steve Lang]

  From "the next tee forward" i thought this was a solid hole and I appreciated seeing the trees framing things, a comfort thing that plays out much more on the back nine.  Also, armed with "front 9" type appreciation for how balls could move out there.. #10 offered something more visibly concave or contained..

After sustenance at the trailer.. (have they built a formal clubhouse there?)
 one can just hit it and find it right or play that left side and see where it ends up.. i seem to remember my power fade working ok there..

[Mike_Cirba]

Elegant.

[George Freeman]

IMO #10 is definitely one of the less severe/dramatic holes on the course; and on top of that isn't the most photogenic either.  But I think there is much more to the hole then the pics show.  Different sides of the fairway definitely pose different challenges tee to green.  It is also a difficult approach b/c the green is almost eye level, and it can be difficult to get a good feel and depth perception.  The green is also much better (however subtle) than the pics show or you might think after one play...

I think the hole/transition from front to back works/looks MUCH better w/ out the trees between 10 & 18.  It just ties everything together. 

Also, notice the new bunkers on the right side of the fairway, after the trees were removed.

from the website:

Diagram (with trees)


tee shot w/ trees


and without...

[Peter Pallotta]

David - good thread idea, indeed.

Mike - excellent choice of words. I noticed at The Mines when I played it, and here in pictures, that with all those contours and dramatic features, the courses still seemed....elegant.  And that's a word I've only used for a couple of Sean Arble's tier-two English courses and for Donald Steel's Redtail, all courses on much different (gentler) topography. I don't know how it's done, but I think it must have to do as much with great shaping as it does great routing.

Peter

[Mike_Cirba]

Peter,

I'm too tired to look it up, but someone important said something about Pine Valley like, "How does one tell where man ends and God begins?"

Do tie-ins between natural land flows and artificial features get much better than this?

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - I just now stopped staring at that picture, when I realized that I'd been sitting here for three minutes, smiling beatifically. Time to shut it down for the night, huh...

The thing I like about Mike D's work is that even the naturalness seems unforced, if you know what I mean. It's as if everything just happens, with little fanfare.

I'm not explaining myself well (assuming there's anything to 'explain'). 

I hope you can make it up there.

Peter

[Mike_Cirba]

Peter,

I certainly hope I can, as well.

You know we'll have a good time then.

[Jon Heise]

I never saw the course before the trees along 17 and 10/18 were cut, but Im almost thinking I like the look a little better than without trees...

[Sean_A]

I liked the way #10 suckers a thrill-seeking chump like be to bit off the dogleg even though there's barely any dogleg there in the first place and it's totally stupid...

That's probably worthy of its own thread...like that "Magician Reveals Magicians' Secrets" show on FOX...

...which is why I ask that nobody steal the thread idea until I can get to a computer instead of this little magic phone thingy...

This is a most enjoyable thread and I am sorry not to be able to make the get together this summer. 

Dave

Which is exactly why knocking the trees out here is a great idea.  A view of the green on a dogleg will sucker in loads of people to miss their drives on the short side. 

Perhaps this is odd, but I am a bit surprised by the bunkering down the left of this hole.  It looks out of scale with hummocks.  Does anybody think these should be bigger bunkers or perhaps removed?  They seem to be betwixt and between.  I was also thinking more nasty looking bunkers down the left might encourage folks to pull a Schmidtie. 

Ciao

[Steve Lang]

  the new bunkers on the right side of the fairway should be far more problematic for most folks than, bigger badder ones on the left..

pulling a schmidtie.. i think a chapter in his biography could be "I Never Met a Sucker Pin I Didn't Like"

[David Neveux]

This is always a tough driving hole for me.  I find the approach to be quite challenging as well.  I never take enough club, I know that the green is elevated, but I never trust it enough.

[Brian Cenci]

Long hole.  Even a 250 yard drive leaves to what is nearly another 200 yard shot because the hole is so much more up hill than you think.  I always end up short but because of the way the course is maintained I find myself getting up and down with the flat stick (like many holes at KC) 10 to 20 yards short of the green.  Green complex is difficult IMO, one of the more crazy ones on the course.

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