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Jay Flemma

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2008, 05:37:11 PM »
I love Pete's work, but I saw a lot more Perry here than Pete.  There are some really good holes, but the parcel of property is irregularly shaped...they had to fit several holes around the environmentally sensitive area, but then shoe-horn the rest in a simple "north-south" routing on a square piece of land.  Ive never seen that many holes close to the clubhouse.

There's some good green contours, but it lacks a lot of Pete's trademark strategies like alternating shot requirements.  Moreover, a lot of the holes looked and played the same...I cant say that about other Dye courses I've played and liked.  On the other hand, there isn't any Dye golf in this area, so people will come to see course for that reason...and good greens with interesting contours are both a draw and add some difficult to the course.

Besides being quite penal in places, the price is too high for a public golf course and it lacks the natural setting of Nemacolin and Bulle Rock, not to mention Kiawah, Kingsmill or Port St. Lucie.  I know Ken Wang wants it to be a "destination course" but it's just not...its nowhere near Bethpage Black.  I like it about the same as the Red, but the red is $150 less.  I feel bad for Ken Wang that once they got out there, they had way more rock to blow up than they originally thought.

That being said there are some good holes.  I have no problem with the Rock on 15, I think it's cool and daring to incorporate a feature like that.  I actually watched Pete deliberately play the ball off the rock and show the guys from the NYT ho it bounces balls onto the green...or the hazard! I also loved 14...carry a quarry,l then turn left at a 45-degree angle and play to a green uphill between two mounds...really good hole.  Once you get out into the environmental area, the Dyes had a lot more room to work with and the work shows in the quality of the holes...and also in their width Holes like 7 and 12 have much more room than 13 and 18 and their not just straight away too..

They need to cut the trees down on 16 and 18.  18 doesnt matter to me because I dont play the tips, but if you start left of the tree, your aiming at the bunker...if you start right of the tree, you aim at an adjacent fairway!...by the way, you see adjacent fairways most of the day..again, thats because the environmental restrictions hemmed the Dyes in...

It's a nice place, but it's not worth $235.

Here's some pix.

13 tee...hit over the rock



hit it off the rock!  This is 15.



"If you can't hit it over the tree, you dont belong on that tee box." - Both dyes.  By the way...those tee marks you see in the foreground?  THEY ARE THE TEES TO ANOTHER HOLE ENTIRELY THAT CROSSES OVER.



One tree is dead, the other dying...but for now, the width of the fairway is wasted...you cant use the whole left half.



Jay on the rocks, with a twist (hitting from the quarry on 14):



One last thing, Mike S, Pete Dye is not in the swan song of his career.  He's still as feisty as ever. I hope I move and think as well and clearly as he does at 72, let alone 82.  Bulle rock and Nemacolin are fairly recent examples of his solo work and they are marvelous.  Again, I think we're seeing the limits of the piece of property.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 05:57:27 PM by Jay Flemma »

Phil McDade

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Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2008, 05:49:28 PM »
Matt,

I live in Scarsdale so I have a good feel for the demographics in this area.  What I don't have is a good sense of who plays upscale daily fee courses on a regular basis.  I assume it's people who don't want to pay for the crap that comes along with a private club - the pool, restaurant, tennis courts etc., all the things that drive up the cost of belonging to a club - but want a better experience than a muny or county course will provide.  Personally, I only know 1 guy (a VP at Pepsi) who considers upscale daily fee as his primary golfing experience (he splits play between Great River and Centennial).  I know lots of people who belong to clubs or play the county courses, but not the daily fee types.

Pound Ridge is better located than Centennial or Great River, being closer to the money, so maybe the combination of superior architecture and location will warrant the premium price.

Kinda like Starbucks?

The thing about new markets is that it's hard to judge their potential success on a current market that doesn't provide anything quite like the new product for the potential new market. Without going through the ups and downs of Starbucks (and its stock, and its management et al), I'm guessing few on this board would've predicted 20 years ago that upscale, high-priced coffee shops would be nearly as ubiquitous on street corners as McDonald's.

The Wisconsin experience (which I keep bringing up, sorry...) is somewhat relevant here. Some well-informed folks thought Herb Kohler was, to put it kindly, nuts when he hired Dye 20 years ago to build an upscale, really expensive golf course in Sheboygan, of all places. I mean, this is the land of beer and brats and bowling. There was really no precedent for what he did. But it worked, and he built three others, and none of them appear to be entering bankruptcy proceedings.




Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2008, 06:08:08 PM »
Gents:

The issue that Jay raised is one that Pound Ridge needs to be constantly aware of for the future. The tree issue on #18 needs to be taken care of because, as I said at the very beginning of this thread, it's more about overkill than anything else on that hole. You've got plenty of items that have been added to the hole -- a smattering of bunkers, H20, small and contoured green, difficult swales to the far right, etc, etc. The tree needs to be chopped or put a lightning rod on top oof it so Mother Nature will do the job quickly and cheaply.

The issue often happens when people make comments on a course and if the last impression isn't a good one it doesn't take long before word of mouth trashes the entire place simply because of the nature of a particular hole.

Ditto the minor fir trees on the right side of #18 need to be chopped out too.

In regards to price -- I don't agree with Jay -- there's plenty of solid architecture at Pound Ridge - again if played from the right tees. Is the price high? In relative terms to what people pay for Angus beef for their dogs -- or routinely pay $100 for bottles of wine or send the kids to camp and high priced private schools -- the answer is no. The guy from Brooklyn isn't headed to Pound Ridge -- the market is tailored for a certain core group of people and as I said previously if branded, marketed and PRed correctly the possibilities are there.

By the way -- one last comment -- I also don't see Bethpage / Red in the league with Pound Ridge. The state park golf course is a good one -- it's not at the same level of details as Pound Ridge even with the self-admitted shortcomings I articulated.

Mea culpa previously -- I said P.B. -- the right answer is Perry.

Phil McDade:

Good point / re: Herb Kohler. The Wang family won't have to go far to grab their share of the big bucks crowd -- they encircle the place for miles all around.

Jay Flemma

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2008, 06:58:54 PM »
Matt, you are right about the clientele...they may be able to afford it.

There is some good architecture there too, just not as much as at Nemacolin or
kiawah or Bulle Rock.  But it is good and its good to see a dye course this close to home.  Don't underestimate the Red.  I may not like the style of the Red, but it's a good course.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2008, 07:13:45 PM »
Matt:  I've just got to ask you about this quote:

"No doubt Mr. Wang and family went for the whole tortilla by including all the extras"

Does Mr. Wang really eat tortillas?

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2008, 07:16:06 PM »
Matt:  I've just got to ask you about this quote:

"No doubt Mr. Wang and family went for the whole tortilla by including all the extras"

Does Mr. Wang really eat tortillas?
What are you saying, Tom?  Jews don't eat Tortillas?
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mike Sweeney

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2008, 07:32:29 PM »
Jay, Matt,

How does the course compare with the public Nicklaus - The Golf Club at Mansion Ridge?

Jay Flemma

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2008, 07:43:26 PM »
Personally...if it's me...I'd play centennial at twilight, which starts at noon...how's that for player-friendly.  For $65 play the fairways and meadows nines, NOT the LAKES...or casperkill for $40.  Richter park is good too...lower impact, more reasonable price.

How is a family of four going to play Pound Ridge every weekend?  Yes a lot of people live in the area, but if a couple play, that's $500 for one round.  If they have kids, it's more.  Do that every week for the summer and it adds up fast.

Matt Varney

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2008, 08:41:51 PM »
Jay,

Can you please send me an e-mail mdvarney@gmail.com and attach some of these images of Pound Ridge.  I would like to compare some of this Pete & Perry design work to the holes we are shaping at Rarity Mountain working with Pete & P.B. Dye.

We have tons of land and two nice 9 hole loops where the tees and green complexes flow nicely on our property with #1 and #10 tees close to each other for tournament play.  The greens for #9 and #18 finish within 75 yards yards of each other at the rear of the site where our golf clubhouse will be built.

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2008, 10:51:12 PM »
Matt
no more quotes about dogs eating angus and expensive wine.
i live around pound ridge and can assure you there are MANY, MANY people that don't wallow in such hollow fantasies.
how many members of quaker ridge, greenwich cc, ROUND HILL, rockrimmon, cc of fairfield, etc, etc, etc.
are going to play pound ridge?
i would say not many at all. if you can't afford a private club in fairfield or westchester you can't afford to play pound ridge on a "regular" basis. period.
we'll see how commited mr wang is when the next housing bubble rears its head.......

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2008, 11:17:31 PM »
Matt, surely this hole was numbered incorrectly and was not "superbly created," as noted in your analysis above. 



Say it ain't so.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2008, 11:37:40 PM »
Whenever I hear someone in a management position describe their product as a golf 'destination' I feel my wallet getting ripped out of my back pocket (make that front pocket if I'm near NYC), my credit card melting and any cash I had just disintegrating into thin air.

I hold my breath and bless myself three times when I drive by these places.

 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jay Flemma

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2008, 11:48:59 PM »
Mike, my picture, taken at eye level, might not do the hole the justice it deserves.  I know it looks zany, but I had the good fortune to watch Mr. Dye personally hity balls off that rock and let them carom onto the green.  he had a ball doing it.  he was so proud of that hole, he was showing it off.  And man, he's still quite the player to hit that rock on command.  he put his frirst ball just a couple feet from the pin, astounding feat for 82.  I bet he's shoots his age.

Anyway, the rock IS a natural landform, after all, and he doesn't do this every hole, it's a one-time thing.  It's creative, bold and just a little fun.  Even Geoff Shackelford says we can allow an architect one little joke per course.

I'll make two observations:  what if that were Arthur Hills who did that?  We'd probly be lining up to roast him, me included, but that's because he consistently designs things that we feel are average.  It's not Arthur though, it's Pete Dye.  and because he has such a great strategic track record, we'll give him an extra chance to really observe it and see how it works.  Second observation...if coore and crenshaw or doak did it, would we embrace it right away?  I think they might get a pass or props for thinking out of the box.

I agree - it introduces luck into the equation...but isn't that a) the way golf originated, and b) isn't the loss of luck and the flattening and dumbing down of courses something we rail against with good reason?

I agree, it's unusual and controversial, but its a de minimus thing.  You hit a shot that far off line on a par-3, you should get punished anyway.  Here the punishment isn't automatic, but depends on luck, so what have we lost?

Give it a try and see what you think...if you still don't like it, I'll understand why and agree you have sound reasoning for it, but I for one find more objectionable the trees on 16 (bunkers in the sky) and 18, and the side-by-side routing...but like I said, you're bound by the property you get and what they got here was rocks and a small corridor in which to work.  They didn't have all the room of Nemacolin or Bulle Rock and produced a solid effort.  They gave wang a good, tough, interesting golf course, especially good over such a sow's ear of a property - not in terms of looks, in terms of being able to work on it...it was rock, rock, rock, but they had far less land than Nemacolin or bulle, that's the crucial difference.

Matt, email me separately at jaymusiclaw@yahoo.com about the pix.  I just want Mr. Dye's OK first since you want to talk business with him.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 11:58:06 PM by Jay Flemma »

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2008, 11:17:05 AM »
Tom D:

Figure of speech -- don't know if many Latinos will be at Pound Ridge though because of the pricing structure. I just love to eat tortillas !

Jeff:

The neighborhood contains some of the most richest people on the planet. Are there poor people and middle class located there too? Sure. But check out the zip code demographics for the greater Greenwich area and you should realize that my comments -- some made in a bit of jest -- are to the point concerning the so-called unaffordability of the $235 green fee at PR.

Jeff, one other thing -- there are rich people in the immediate area who do play golf and are not necessarily enamored with private golf and all the assorted rules / regs / procedues / politics tied to them. I didn't say PR was a slam dunk financially -- they have plenty of work to do on that front for many of the reasons Mike S mentioned.

But, let's kid ourselves shall we -- check out the size of many of the homes (castles) that dot the landscape. To ignore that reality is to have one's head in the sand with all due respect.


Mike S:

Good question - on Mansion Ridge.

Lots of earthmoving stuff but likely the Pound Ridge site was the more demanding to construct and deal with because of the shoe-horned in areas found in the property.

Mansion Ridge provides plenty of "breather" hole options and is not as intense as Pound Ridge is off the tee. I like both courses but can see why people would prefer the Monroe altermative (beyond the price aspect) to the one at Pound Ridge.

Mike, the closing hole at Mansion Ridge is similar to the intensity of a number of the longer par-4's you find at Pound Ridge. You need to play the right tees because failign that it becomes a very long and difficult grind.

I'll provide more info on the two courses later.

Michael H:

What's wrong with the par-3 15th ?

My God man you have a famous hole in Scotland -- maybe you have heard about it -- The Road Hole -- in which a road (a man created situation) is part and parcel in playing the hole.

The 15th at PR is only 175 yards from the tips and much shorter from the reg and front tees. The pin will likely -- from what I was told - always be played from the middle and frontal areas for regular play and only moved to the extreme left when special events call for it to be there,'

I have no issue with the rock and I can base that conclusion on having played the hole. Is there a clear rub of the green if you hit it -- sure there is -- just like the 17th at TOC.





Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2008, 11:39:50 AM »
Matt, that's an dreadful analogy.  As I have personally experienced, the ball will come to rest on the Road Hole, not ricochet into a hazard.  Also, one can strategically play out to the right of the Road Hole green or at worst extract themselves from the Road Hole Bunker.   By comparison, the Dye hole looks like hit or reload.  The Road Hole is strategic - the Dyes' hole is penal.

Mike
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 01:59:02 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Sweeney

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2008, 12:02:15 PM »

Jeff:

The neighborhood contains some of the most richest people on the planet. Are there poor people and middle class located there too? Sure. But check out the zip code demographics for the greater Greenwich area and you should realize that my comments -- some made in a bit of jest -- are to the point concerning the so-called unaffordability of the $235 green fee at PR.

Jeff, one other thing -- there are rich people in the immediate area who do play golf and are not necessarily enamored with private golf and all the assorted rules / regs / procedues / politics tied to them. I didn't say PR was a slam dunk financially -- they have plenty of work to do on that front for many of the reasons Mike S mentioned.

But, let's kid ourselves shall we -- check out the size of many of the homes (castles) that dot the landscape. To ignore that reality is to have one's head in the sand with all due respect.


Matt,

I like to give you a hard time, but I do appreciate your review of the golf course and Jay's. I know Jay is a big Pete Dye fan so I assume it was hard for him to write what he did. I have not played Pound Ridge GC (new version, played the old). I do not get the free comps that you and the other writers get, so I have to pay the full fright. As a consumer, I get to make choices, and at the current pricing structure and the other options that I have (Yale, Salem GC, playing with friends at other clubs), I choose not to play Pound Ridge GC.

Jeff, Phil and myself (me on weekends) all live in the area. We are all arguably the target market as we are private club golfers, but none of us have a home club in Westchester or Fairfield counties. YOU CAN STOP TELLING US ABOUT OUR NEIGHBORHOODS!!! We get it, rich guys are around, same as Nantucket, The Hamptons, Fifth Avenue...... However, none of those neighborhoods have a public golf course with a $235 green fee.

It sounds from pictures and words and being on the property before during and after the construction like very expensive target golf, and that is just not my cup of tea. I recently paid $300 to play Galloway which is 10 minutes from Hidden Creek a course that I belong to. It was a great day, and I would do it again under the right circumstances. Again consumer decision.

PS. I like the look of the 15th hole above. Not every hole, but once or twice a round sure. However, the green looks a little small in a different picture.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 01:48:28 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2008, 06:36:07 PM »
Mike S:

I always enjoy your comments -- even the offbeat ones. ;D

I was asked to play the course and I simply go where I am invited. Simple as that.

I also answered previously that if I played there at a different time that I would not mind paying the fee for 1-2 rounds per year. I do have a budget like most people and I try to play my golf at places where my time and pocketbook are considered.

I don't hold price against Pound Ridge -- I don't hold it against Pebble ior Pinehurst #2 either. Unfortunately, many of the superior golf experiences do charge a hefty fee or require networking of the inner sanctum variety to gain access to the more elite private clubs.

If you choose not to play there I respect your decision - however, I do state that walking a layout and actually playing one is a big time difference in getting a much thorough familiarity with the course. I plan on playing there again when the metro writers play there on July 22. It will be interesting for me to see if my initial comments were spot on or misplaced. I will certainly share them with the group.

Mike, the playpens of the rich have always been private clubs. CCFAD's have generally avoided many of the areas you have mentioned because the folks there, for the most part, opt to play at private clubs. Mr. Wang has seen fit to provide a public option -- albeit an expensive one.

I also mentioned -- the event you missed it -- that building a CCFAD in seasonal locations like Nantucket or the Hamptons would be foolish because it is the rich who are the transient types and since they have their playpens the ordinary folks will look for cheaper golf options.

Locating PR smack dab in the heart of the immediate greater Greenwich area may just work for the reasons I mentioned previously. I find it amusing that people don't like the idea that outsiders like me have outlined the vast array of exquisite castles and other toys that permeate the landscape in that very unique area of the USA. I salute the folks there who have the deepest of pockets because that's the likely market that Mr. Wang is looking to catch. Will he succeed? The jury is out on that one for now.

Glad you played Galloway -- you didn't say definitively if you liked it as much, better or less than Hidden Creek. Also, I can't recall if you say you enjoy the type of golf that Dye (all family members included) provides.

In regards to the 15th hole -- there's sufficient room for an approach to land there. The "visual" element -- which the Dyes excel at -- is to make the golfer BELIEVE the landing area is that much smaller. Playing mind games is what works at Pound Ridge and as I said at the outset it's the nature of the "visual terror" that you must rise above in order to score well when playing.

I've said there are issues I have with the course -- it's not perfect by any means. But having the Dyes in the greater NYC metro area is a plus because of the fanfare this type of course will cause. Our discussion here and likely others will have is proof of that.

Michael H:

Hold the phone amigo -- my analysis comes from actuall yplaying the hole.

Have you ?

I also mentioned the nature of the type of shot that would be played and the distance required. It's very much within acceptability and reasonabless.

Michael -- do you hold the same logic for the 17th at TPC / Sawgrass ?

The Dyes gave players at the 15th at PR room to escape the nature of the water hazard -- if you hit the rock you likely have over hit by two clubs. Hello -- how much room do people need on a short hole. Have we forgotten the merits of accuracy.

From the middle tees the hole is 151 yards - you make it sound like the hole was 250 yards and the rock was still in the same position for such a longer hole. 

Michael, if you actually play the hole you will see that there's more than enough room and that, as I said previously, the pin will only be placed in the far left corner during special situations. Hope this further info helps your understanding.


Mike Sweeney

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2008, 08:32:27 PM »
I find it amusing that people don't like the idea that outsiders like me have outlined the vast array of exquisite castles and other toys that permeate the landscape in that very unique area of the USA.

MATT - YOUR FROM FREAKING NEW JERSEY NOT KANSAS, ARE THERE NO RICH GUYS IN JERSEY? MY BROTHER HAS THE FIRST DOLLAR HE EVER MADE AND HE LIVES IN JERSEY.  ;D I AM A PHILLY KID THAT MARRIED A CONNECTICUT GIRL, GET OVER IT.  :-*


Glad you played Galloway -- you didn't say definitively if you liked it as much, better or less than Hidden Creek. Also, I can't recall if you say you enjoy the type of golf that Dye (all family members included) provides.

LOVED GALLOWAY. GREAT VIEWS, GREAT SHOTS, GREAT GREENS. I WISH IT WAS A LITTLE MORE WALKABLE AND A LITTLE MORE ROOM OFF THE TEE IN SPOTS. THEY COULD CLEAR A FEW TREES. I PLAYED POORLY BUT THAT DID NOT CHANGE MY VIEWS. TOO MUCH AS AN EVERYDAY COURSE FOR ME, BUT FOR A ONE TIME/SPECIAL PLACE PLAY, I WOULD SUGGEST GALLOWAY OVER HIDDEN CREEK. BEST FAZIO I EVER PLAYED AND I AM A BIG WORLD WOODS PB FAN. HIDDEN CREEK IS NOT THE BEST C&C COURSE, BUT IT IS A BETTER MEMBERS COURSE AND CLUB THAN GALLOWAY, OBVIOUSLY IN MY BIASED OPINION. BOTH ARE IN PERFECT CONDITION RIGHT NOW.

Matt,

Just a reminder you ARE VERY SENSITIVE TO PRICE when you pay that out of state rate at Bethpage Black, you know the course that I support with my tax dollars!!  ;)

I am waiting for my first great Dye course, and I acknowledge that I have basically never played in the Midwest except for a couple of Doak 4-5 corporate days outside of Chicago on courses I forget.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 08:34:34 PM by Mike Sweeney »

JimFatsi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2008, 09:50:25 PM »
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32109.0.html

see above link for earlier post and pictures, pre opening

Michael Mimran

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2008, 10:47:09 PM »
Here's a video interview with the head pro.

http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SPORTS0502

To me all this "destination" talk is silly.  Any course could be a destination if it's good enough.  Time will tell.  People will make the treck regardless of where it is.  It's not like Pound Ridge, NY has anything else to offer the public. 

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2008, 09:53:45 AM »
Mike S:

With all due respect -- get real.

There's money and then there is MONEY !!!

Check out the stats when the Greenwich / Pound Ridge areas is analyed -- Jersey has its share but not as concentrated or as deep.

Sorry if I touched a sensitive bone but one would have to have your eyes shut not to see what I have seen in the area. It is -- what it is. In terms of your comment -- "get over it" -- may I suggest you do likewise and accept it for what it is.

Mike, the issue with Bethpage State Park is a different one than a privately-owned daily fee operation such as Pound Ridge. I took exception to what Bethpage State Park did because the jump in prices went far beyond what one could sense as being reasonable after the US Open event in '02. The USGA could have insisted upon a more balanced approach but at the end of the day it is a New Yorker-owned property and can charge outsiders $1,000 a round if they want.

The natural reaction would be for neighboring states to do likewise with their golf courses and I don't see that benefiting anyone. Nonetheless, the current prices at Bethpage -- nost notably the Black are still fairly reasonable for most folks.

Thanks for the comments / Galloway National. I concur with you in terms of the course's qualities. It is clearly one of the best TF layouts I have ever played and one of Jersey's top ten courses in my mind.

In regards to the Dyes -- I don't know if you would like / appreciate the type of design the family generally provides. Some people do and some don't. Until you have played a few it's tough to say either way.

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2008, 03:09:10 PM »
I had my $250 out until I saw the picture of those Stupid Trees and the comment that "the whole left half of the fairway is out of play".  And the comment that "if you can't hit it over those trees, then you shouldn't be..........  Pull-leeze!

Maybe Pete Dye shouldn't be my all-time favorite golf architect that isn't dead.  If Alice and he are going to put those awful "bunkers in the sky" on their courses going forward, .......oh, never mind.

Somebody call me when those Stupid Trees come down and aren't replaced.  Hopefully the green fees will still be just $250.


Jay Flemma

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2008, 07:02:16 PM »
Don't freak out so badly...one of them is dead and the other dying and there are no plans for replacements.  Get your money back out and go have a good time. ;D

Mike Sweeney

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2008, 08:15:38 PM »

Check out the stats when the Greenwich / Pound Ridge areas is analyed -- Jersey has its share but not as concentrated or as deep.

http://wealth.mongabay.com/tables/100_wealthiest_zip_codes-1000.html

From the IRS:

Greenwich CT #9
Far Hills New Jersey #11

Matt,

Don't you live out in Far Hills? Next time you are paying for lunch!

PS. Pound Ridge does not make the Top 100 but North Stamford does.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2008, 10:02:45 PM »

Michael H:

Hold the phone amigo -- my analysis comes from actuall yplaying the hole.

Have you ?

Matt, thank you for this analytical and reasoned rebuttal to my contention that the hole pictures has absolutely nothing in common with the Road Hole at The Old Course.

In all seriousness, I think your contention that the hole features similar playing characteristics to the 17th at TPC-Sawgrass has merit.  At least if you're long onto the rocks you have some chance of a lucky bounce.  I haven't seen a ball bounce out of the water behind the 17th at TPC yet.  That said, it would seem that the angle of the subject's green and narrow mid-section and cute back left section are way over the top with only the right half of the green analagous to TPC's 17th. 

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

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