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Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2008, 10:10:45 AM »
Michael H:

Let's cut to the chase -- please.

Have you played the hole ?

If not -- then your conjecture is just that -- conjecture from the seat of your chair in front of your computer throw the lens of only photos.

The hole maxes out to 175 yards -- the distance from the middle and front tee position is much shorter than that and fully within reach of 90% of the people who play the game. There is even a frontal women's tee that eliminates the carry aspect which is quie limited from the middle tees.

The rear left pin placement would only be used for special occasions and given the caliber of such players fully within their means to handle that shot demand.

I've seen other Dye par-3 holes and the 15th at Pound Ridge is quite stunning in its simplicity -- the hole fits very well within the confines of the area.

Michael, try to move away from the "it would seem" analysis to one that is beyond that through an actual playing experience. Seat of the pants analysis has its place -- in this instance it is misplaced from my personal involvement with the said hole.



Chip:

The statement by Pete on the 18th hole really needs to be addressed by the club because, as I said, those who play from that tee box will certainly believe it's overkill on his part given the fact that the closing hole is already 480+ yards with tons of sand to the left and H20 to the left of the green and mindless little fir trees which will grow in time.

Sometimes one hole -- especially the closing hole -- can leave one with a lasting impression that is not good. The 18th at Pound Ridge didn't need the "throw the kitchen sink at'em" mentality.


Mike S:

Appreciate the analysis -- but consider the area in Westchester -- north of White Plains and attach to it the western half of Fairfield County -- just north of I-95 and that's the area I am speaking about.

In regards to where I live -- I reside in Clifton, NJ. Although I will share with my wife your idea that I somehow have a place in Far Hills. She will be wondering how I pulled that off. ;D

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2008, 05:38:52 PM »
Matt,

What part of "your contention has merit" do you not understand?

I am concerned about the extent of "your personal involvement with the hole."

 ;)

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2008, 02:41:39 PM »
Michael H:

Let's cut to the chase shall we ...

1). Have you played the 15th hole at Pound Ridge ?

That answer starts with either of the two answers ...

Yes or No

My understanding of the hole -- whether right or wrong -- goes beyond just simply viewing photos -- I've played it and offered my thoughts on it.

2). I opined and mentioned that playability is still front and center when facing the hole. It's demanding when the pin is placed in the left rear but it's only there on special events. The carry is well within the means of 90% of the people who play the game when appropriate tee boxes are used.

You have harped upon the general unfairness of the hole and the random / inane location of the rock formation behind the green. I mentioned to you that the rock is well off the target itself and that other holes Pete Dye has built offered more draconian situations and were even more penal in their scope.

My assessment comes from not just the photo side of things but in testing the actual premise of the hole through the best means possible -- actually playing it. Simple as that.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2008, 07:35:36 PM »
Matt, 

Let me get this straight - are you saying you actually played the hole?
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2008, 10:43:33 AM »
Michael:

Yes.

I played the course about 7-10 days ago.

Now, to my questions which you still have not answered ...

Have you played the course and the hole in question ?

My only point on this entire back and forth exercise is to go beyond speculation from simply analysis of photos and from what really happens when one plays a hole.

How you answer the question I have asked several times previously will tell me how deep or limited your analysis is.

Got it.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #55 on: July 14, 2008, 10:59:12 PM »
Matt, 

I clearly need to use more smilies. :) ;) :D ;D

Kindest regards - really.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2008, 11:11:49 PM »
Matt,

I grew up in White Plains and learned the game at Maple Moor.  You don't have to worry about the guys with the early times at Maple Moor heading up to PR because they are the same 8 guys every weekend... (one has to wonder how they do that, but that is for another thread).

I can vouch that getting people to pay the greens fees is not a problem.  There is a lot of pent up demand in that region for high-end daily fee golf.  No one has the time to justify joining a club and the best clubs are near impossible to get into anyway.  Plunking down $250 a round a few times a year is a steal next to the cost of a second-tier private club.  As to the other public options, keep in mind you are driving an hour plus each way to get to them from this area (with no traffic) and playing a 5+ hour round.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 02:56:30 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2008, 09:50:10 AM »
Geoffrey:

I never stated that the "guys with the early times at Maple Moor" would be the customers that the folks at Pound Ridge are likely targeting. No doubt the overall fee of $235 will deter a good number of people. Even if the figure were dropped $100 it would still not mean a change of heart for many people to go there -- albeit maybe just one time to see it for themselves.

I also concur with you that other quality public golf course options are also a bit of a drive depending upon which alternative you choose.

Thank you for your comment on pent up demand. Plenty of people in that area have a love for the game but will not plunk down serious bread for one of the private club options. Yes, $235 is quite high to the ordinary Joe and Jane, but I concur that the immediate area in and around Pound Ridge has more than its fair share of people who have the deepest of pockets and the wherewithal to be steady customers at the new layout.

Mike Sweeney

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2008, 08:15:57 PM »
Played it today, and Pound Ridge's issues have been covered pretty well.

On the positive side, the greens are very nice and the course is in very good condition with a ton of workers on the course today.

They are offering a membership for $5000 for 2009. Just for comparison purposes, Newport National (RI), which I prefer, has a similar membership for $3500.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 08:19:40 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2008, 10:28:15 PM »
Mike:

You didn't outline your feelings on the course beyond a quick mention of issues being "covered pretty well."

Do you see the course as playable -- if approached from the correct set of tees? Or is the course simply too penal?

What do you think of the manner by which course shoe-horns a few holes on the inner half -- starting with the par-3 11th and running through the par-5 13th?

Mike, was there a hole or holes you really liked? On the flip side were there holes you simply hated or believed to be out there in la-la land?

Thanks ...

p.s. Final question -- would you recommend the course to others -- assuming the green fee matter was not central to them playing there or not?

Mike Sweeney

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2008, 07:01:21 AM »

p.s. Final question -- would you recommend the course to others -- assuming the green fee matter was not central to them playing there or not?

The people are very nice there so I did/do not want to be too harsh. Since I hang out with a bunch of GCA nuts, I certainly think it is worth a one time play, especially in this area where there is not much Pete Dye. As an everyday course, never; as a few times a year course because it is close to the house, they need to do a lot of work both maintenance and architecturally.

I was kind of enjoying the course more than I thought I would in the middle of the round but after a while it just gets on your nerves to be losing balls left and right 5 yards off the fairway in the deep fescue on side hill mounds that can barely be walked because of steepness. I played it with a very good player and finally on the 16th hole, I thought we were going to have to call a Shrink to get him in.  ;) We only played one back tee on the short par 5 on the back. The rest I was often playing the 6300 tees with a three wood to keep it in play.

It just seems hard for the sake of being hard, and I don't see where that takes talent from Pete Dye. It also is not well thought out. Walking often meant climbing over walls and no walking paths. There was mention of them starting a caddy program next year, but it is not clear, probably forecaddies.

The stone walls were just over the top. I can't understand why they took the time and expense to build a Great Wall of China in the woods filled with natural Yalish stone outcroppings. It looked silly to me and I wish they had not spent so much money to create a look that looks like Vegas in New England.

Rather than go hole by hole, I will simply pick the 18th to express my suggested changes:

Tees - Just for the back two tees, take down the tress. They are silly on a 450+ hole to be placed right in the line. I played way up.

Fairway: I am a Raynor guy so I like angles around a course but the grade of the fairway on the left side with those series of MacKenzie bunkers with a Raynor greenside wall (in the fairway not at greenside) keeping them out of play was goofy. They had 6 crew guys hand raking bunkers that were barely in play unless you hit an aerial shot in. The entire fairway needs to be re-graded to bring those bunkers in play.

Green: One of  smallest greens in the world for a 450+ yard hole with water left of the green. On the right side bail out area the pitching area went down and back up to the green bringing the water into play on a recovery. Make the green a big one all the way to the cart path. Make three putts rather that chipping into the water a possibility.

Do I think it could be a Doak 6 and make the Ward Top 50 Metro? It is going to take alot of work and then it may only be a maybe due to the land and rocks. I wish it was not the case as it is convenient for me on many weekends, but with cost factored in, I will continue my occasional weekend golf escapes to New Haven.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 07:06:17 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2008, 09:55:58 AM »
Mike:

The people were "very nice" and you don't wish to be "harsh." My God Mike, when has that ever stopped you before in any posts you have made. ;D (*only kidding here)

Mike, you expressed your reservations about the lost balls -- have to point this out to you but the sheer nature of Pound Ridge is tied to the psycho-elements the Dyes push upon the player. Too many people on this site believe that extra wide is the ONLY way to go. Pound Ridge goes the other way -- it requires accuracy and if you can consider this -- it's philosophy is meant to combat the 460cc invasion in which power personified is the only ingredient that many players have sought.

Pound Ridge advocates accuracy to the max -- no doubt that can be difficult and I'm not suggesting it would make for a fun time no matter how many or little times one plays the course.

I was struck by your comment "kind of enjoying it." What kind (e.g. holes are your speaking about) before the elements you indicated overpowered all else?

Mike, if you played Oak Tree, TPC Sawgras (before all the modifications), The Honors Club, Lost Canyons / Sky, the list is rather extensive, Dye has followed a mantra of elevating the "eye" fear to a level far beyond what others are used to from other architects. Just pulling the trigger on a shot can be quite daunting.

Too many people here on GCA see architecture as a one-way street -- all holes must be wide, they must provide multiple options and, of course, they must always be firm and fast. Dye doesn't follow the game plan at Pound Ridge and no doubt it will be difficult for others to accept that motif.

Mike, I find it odd you mentioned about the demands of walking -- I didn't see that as much of an issue -- the real issue for me is the nature of how utterly COMPACT the holes are in when squeezed as tight as they are.

Given the compactness of the property the usage of the stone walls does make sense -- you drew an analogy to Vegas golf and as someone who's played there many times I don't see the connection. The shot rewards are there at Pound Ridge but you need to be VERY precise in just about everyway -- I do agree that if you wish to draw a Vegas parallel then the bunker complex at the 10th hole -- on the right side seems completely out of place and overly done. You also forgot to mention the side mounding which acts as containment but the last time I was there was cut to rough height and didn't allow balls to bounce back down.

Mike, I completely concur w your thoughts on the trees on #18. Their continued involvement is max overkill on a hole that already has enough going on there.

Since you mentioned about the close proximity of the bunkers on the left -- Mike, keep this in mind, the Dyes have followed this formula previously with the 18th at TPC / Sawgrass using H20 instead of water. If you didn't like the 18th at Pound Ridge then the finale in Florida would have the same scorn heaped upon it by you.

I do differ with you -- the bunkers most certainl are in play -- the slightest pull and either by air or bounce the balls can find its way into any number of them. My issue is the simple overkill of throwing everything but the kitchen sink into the mix. The 18th at PR, as presently constituted, is akin to the mega of mega car chase scenes you see in the movies.

Mike, I do agree with your comments on the small size of the green -- but I think you are again referencing a classic school of architecture viewpoint which likes to see large greens with a range of contours within that size target. Dye did not start his career with that sort of configuration -- Harbour Town came to life because it had the smallest of greens. I don't doubt that 450 yards is a long hole for such a target but the only people who should tackle the hole from that distance would be the truly advanced players. Pound Ridge is ONLY meant to be played from the tips from those who are truly 3 or better handicaps. The rest are simply pissing in the ocean if they try to handle what it requires.

I liked the bailout area to the right -- it certainly does mandate a deft touch to get it up'n down from that side. I think you are being a bit unfair when you say chipping into the water is likely. If someone were to skull a shot then it's possible -- I don't see the real difference between having a long and curving putt if the green were made to be much larger then compared to a chip shot which requires an equal or greater range of skill to get it close to the hole.

Mike, I'm glad you were able to play the course. No doubt you are 100% correct -- the overall price will discourage repeat play from the casual observer and I do agree that the configuration of rocks and other distractions can be sheer terror for any player who is hitting it sideways.

I've played my share of Dye courses and others that really put heat on the player on the tee game. Pound Ridge is not the pure "classic" school golf design that so many here on GCA love. I'm not saying it's my cup of tea either on a daily basis -- but I will say this about the course -- it puts a real mental pressure on the tee shot constantly. I would think that the player who believes in bomb and gouge tactics would be brought to their knees when playing there -- that's a good thing overall given today's tech stuff. On the flip side the players who are accuracte will find a course that elevates what they do best.

I agree with you there are elements at the course that need tweaking -- in some cases (the 18th with the trees at minimum) requiring major surgery.

Pound Ridge is indeed a controversial layout and I can see why the Dyes have once again fallen back on using controversy as a means to get notice. Will the course have staying power? Ah, that's an entirely different matter -- it will require some tinkering and adjustments to take away the severe sharp edges found there now.

We shall see ...

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2008, 10:29:27 AM »
2 hot dogs
2 coronas

$29 freakin dollars! (before tip)

nuff said??

"hard" is not good

HamiltonBHearst

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2008, 12:25:48 AM »


Have we reached the point where we now judge new courses by the quality/cost profile of the hot dogs?  Maybe the hot dog at Maple Moor would be more affordable Mr. Loh ??? 

How about some comments on the architecture or are you a punch and judy hitter that does not have enough game to appreciate the merits of the Dye design?

Mike Sweeney

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2008, 05:49:34 AM »


Mike, you expressed your reservations about the lost balls -- have to point this out to you but the sheer nature of Pound Ridge is tied to the psycho-elements the Dyes push upon the player. Too many people on this site believe that extra wide is the ONLY way to go. Pound Ridge goes the other way -- it requires accuracy and if you can consider this -- it's philosophy is meant to combat the 460cc invasion in which power personified is the only ingredient that many players have sought.


Matt,

It did not throw me that much off the tee, but I did play up on a number of holes. Was not really surprised on the result of any tee ball. If it was in a hazard, it was not a surprise. I was only surprised on the first hole on my approach shot which went right into a wetlands area. However it was really foggy when we teed off, so it was not necessarily a design issue. The issue is the thick fescue. You could be looking within 2 feet of where you hit it, and you still wont find it when it goes right in. While today it is a maintenance issue, it appears that the Dyes chose form over function in choosing the grasses. They could have chosen a wispy fescue to get the look. How many courses have started out with this deep heavy fescue to only pull back? Philly Cricket (new), Tall Grass, Long Island National. If the Dyes are pros, why are they doing the same mistakes of ten years ago?

In general I value the ebb and flow of a course. I think we both agree that Shinnecock is a hard course that has great ebb and flows very well. At Pound Ridge, it is basically an ebb course in that the intensity is always on. The one short 4 that they throw at you is 314 yard #5. Jeff hit driver from the back tee. He is long but in November weather he is not getting it there. I moved up and hit three wood. We both ended up about 40-50 yards from the green in the right landing area. When we saw the green up close, we could not imagine anyone, even tour pros, going for that green. There was a 1 in 10 chance of Tiger hitting the narrow strip that leads up to it. In the Sean Arble view of the world, he has 17 bunkers most of them are really not in play. Form over function, IMHO.

On number 10, 409 par 4, they need to start over.


Pound Ridge is indeed a controversial layout and I can see why the Dyes have once again fallen back on using controversy as a means to get notice.

I really don't think it is that controversial. After the round, we had a sandwich, and it was quiet so the staff asked us our opinion. We were trying to be helpful and constructive and as we were describing our thoughts there was a general nodding of the head. My impression is they have been hearing the same thoughts most of the season.

I have not played much Dye. The one that I liked was Royal Links (by Perry?), and I am sure that I am in the minority here on that one.  :D
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 06:04:55 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2008, 12:23:05 PM »
Mike:

I asked this before ...

Would you recommend playing PR to people ?

In regards to the fescue -- I concur.

However, if the bordering fescue were cut to say no more than two inches would your opinion of the course change dramatically?

I disagree with your take on the short par-4 5th. The hole is driveable but the issue for me was the silly "let's throw a zillion bunkers" into the picture routine. The great short par-4's that I have played can have a solitary bunker which adds as much, if not more, intrique and drama. The twin tee boxes at the hole are a nice touch because the angle from where you play does matter -- keep in mind that long to the right side can be fatal as it should be for those who miss in that direction.

In regard to #10 -- I think if they had smartly created a bunker complex that works in concert with the terrain it would have fared much better. I have never been a fan of bunkers that are stacked as high as an airline control tower.

I do think that the Dyes relish controversy because PR clearly falls far outside the "classic" school of design. The intensity is there with the tee game element and I think that's fine provided there is a sensibility to how one rewards fine plays. When a course cannot separate the good, the so-so and the poor shot you then have a design that is grounded on nothing more than pure chance. I think PR needs a bit of tweaking -- cutting the fescue down is part of that and making sure the rough height on the facs of the containment mounding are also addressed.

You are right on #18 concerning the tree issue near the tee box for the middle and champ tee positions.

Pound Ridge will never be loved but by adding a few elements and taking down a level or two of a few we have already mentioned it's possible it can add a good bit more in the respect column.

Two quick examples -- a bit more width in the drive zone on #2 would be a plus -- also eliminating the sheer carry on #3 when played from the tips would be a huge benefit to 98% of the people who play from that marker.

Last question -- did you like the par-3 15th ?




Sam Maryland

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2008, 02:04:28 PM »
even in the most robust of economic times the biz model of this course appears to have been a stretch...

...in this economy I think the club will fail (unless the owners are willing to keep burning cash from their own pockets, and nobody will do that forever).

my comments are arms length since I have not played it but one buddy of mine was there on a beautiful Saturday in August and said there wasn't a single reservation on the tee-sheet after 11am.  he paid his $235 and played, said it was fun to see it once, but it way too hard for him (17 handicap) and he wouldn't be going back.  on that visit the starter said "we have been disappointed with the traffic this year and are going to go private next year" -- good luck with that in this economy. 

how much of the wealth in the area do you think was related to companies like AIG, BSC, UBS, LEH, Citigroup, and others?  100's of thousands of the highest paying jobs in the area, along with billions and billions of wealth, have been vaporized.   and what one will pay to play a course in Wisconsin is in no way relevant to this discussion whatsoever (IMO).

another buddy of mine who is in the industry (golf that is) has played it and he said "you can lose a ball almost every shot if you are left, right, or short"...he found that to be an unattractive proposition (good player, 4 handicap).  he'd prob play it again but that wouldn't do the club any good because he doesn't pay, said if he had to pay he wouldn't play.

at the time of the course opening they had a $15,000,000 bank loan.  assuming it's a normally amortizing loan with a 15-year term that's prob $125,000+ of monthly overhead before the first light switch has been flipped or green cut.  (loan terms could vary MATERIALLY, but they gotta pay the $15mm back at some point none-the-less)

seems to me that the vast majority of the wealthy people in the are that are serious about golf would already be a member of a private club.  and private club waiting lists are hurtling toward a 0-month wait time if in fact they aren't already there (with VERY few exceptions) so access to private clubs will be a pretty much of a non-event for those that want to join.

"modification" is a popular term these days...

...Pound Ridge has one coming, in a BIG way (prob involuntary at that).

JMO.

SM

link to bank loan article:  http://burbsbiz.lohudblogs.com/2008/06/24/alpine-capital-finances-pound-ridge-golf-course/
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 02:28:00 PM by Sam Maryland »

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2008, 04:06:43 PM »
Sam:

Keep in mind the neighborhood Pound Ridge is located.

We are not talking about the South Bronx here !

The per capita income of the immediate 20-mile radius of Pound Ridge is likely at the very top of the charts. No doubt the slowdown will have an impact but it's a good bit different in that small area of the woods than in just about any other place in the USA.

I don't doubt that the ownership will have to do a few things -- likely the green fee situation will be tilited downward as the day progresses in order to draw people in - especially for repeat play. They may also create a loyalty program by which more golf will add other values to the player(s) who visit more often.

In regards to the player with a 17 handicap -- no doubt the demands are there at PR. Much of that can be helped by what Mike S and I discussed previously. It also helps for people to understand that PR is a course that requries a real sober assessment of what and you can and cannot do on a golf course. Playing the correct tees is a necessity.

If they decide to go private they would certainly get a fair share of people who are interested. The course does need tweaking but the Dyes have been successful before in doing such things.

I also have confidence the Wangs will survive

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #68 on: November 16, 2008, 06:29:22 PM »
matt
you must have a fiduciary interest in this place :)
you are not listening to what people say
its no fun and too expensive--no more or less complicated than that

ok--i'll admit it

I HAD MORE FUN AT HUBBARD HEIGHTS!!

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #69 on: November 16, 2008, 06:38:39 PM »
Jeff:

You must have MISSED what I said previously -- there is money and then there is M-O-N-E-Y.

I have no interest in PR and I have made it a point to highlight a few elements that are both good and those needing some improvement.

I don't doubt PR is a hard layout -- it doesn't help people when they opined if they've played the wrong tee boxes and ask "what happened?"

If you like Hubbard Heights -- knock yourself out and stay there. Good for you. But if the tweaks are made to the course and they develop a real branding / marketing program it's a doable item for them to make a go out of it.

That's plenty of "what ifs", no doubt about it. We shall see ...

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2008, 09:24:17 PM »
matt
watch yourself
i did not play the "wrong" set of tees
"branding" and "marketing"---you should work for carolyn bivens
it's an OK golf course that is way overpriced
doesn't sound like i'll see you at hubbard. oh well..................

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2008, 12:26:25 AM »
Jeff:

Help me out buckeroo -- but maybe you can tell me what tees you played?

I simply said others may have played the wrong tees when playing there and weighed in with comments stacked to how they scored. I also try to avoid weighing in on the merits of a course by what they charge for food and the like. Some people believe that part is critical.

You say it's simply "an OK golf course" -- it's better than that -- Mike S and I mentioned a few elements that could be tweaked. For those who adore the Hubbard Heights of this world it's likely they won't find PR appealing for a host of reasons -- price being one of them -- the freedom their poor shots get is another.

PR is not much different than a few other Pete Dye layouts that opened originally -- TPC / Sawgrass being one of them. No doubt it's a work in progress and it will be up the ownership to determine what steps are needed to provide a bit more elasticity than is there now.


Sam Maryland

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2008, 09:02:19 AM »
Sam:

Keep in mind the neighborhood Pound Ridge is located.

We are not talking about the South Bronx here !

The per capita income of the immediate 20-mile radius of Pound Ridge is likely at the very top of the charts. No doubt the slowdown will have an impact but it's a good bit different in that small area of the woods than in just about any other place in the USA.

I don't doubt that the ownership will have to do a few things -- likely the green fee situation will be tilited downward as the day progresses in order to draw people in - especially for repeat play. They may also create a loyalty program by which more golf will add other values to the player(s) who visit more often.

In regards to the player with a 17 handicap -- no doubt the demands are there at PR. Much of that can be helped by what Mike S and I discussed previously. It also helps for people to understand that PR is a course that requries a real sober assessment of what and you can and cannot do on a golf course. Playing the correct tees is a necessity.

If they decide to go private they would certainly get a fair share of people who are interested. The course does need tweaking but the Dyes have been successful before in doing such things.

I also have confidence the Wangs will survive
Matt,

1.  I fully understand your point about the neighborhood.  But you should understand that a lot of wealth has been destroyed in that neighborhood this year, I mean a LOT, I mean MASSIVE MASSIVE amounts.  And the if the tee-sheet is empty on a nice Saturday in August, then when will it be full?

2.  I also understand your point about picking the correct tee.  I'm a single digit index who loves to hit driver but "straight" isn't often used to describe my driving game.  Certainly not hung up on playing "the back tees", never do at Bethpage...but from the sounds of this place I'd have to hit 5-iron off every tee -- that doesn't sound like much fun.  My buddy who is the 17 loves to hit driver too, and hits it well for a guy that has only been playing a few years, doubt he wants to hit 5-iron every hole either.

3.  You are correct, a big green fee cut is in their future...sounds like they better cut the price of beers and brat's too.

4.  If they can pull off a transformation to private I will be shocked, just don't see that happeneing.

5.  I'm sure the Wang's will survive, but whether or not they want to stay in the golf course business is another matter.

If there's one consistent theme I've seen as people attempt to assess this credit debacle is that their "worst case" scenarios are never worst case enough.  Typically a tripling of the "worst case" assumptions brings one to about where reality ends up.  Pound Ridge should probably apply that same framework to their business plan and see what kind of result it spits out -- I suspect they would be shellshocked.   (can't tell you how many times I've heard senior mgmt from publicly traded companies say things like "we never imagined this", or "this is so much worse than we ever thought it could be", etc...)

Only time will tell...

SM

PS..."Visual Terror" certainly wouldn't be a selling point that would attract me to any golf course.

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2008, 11:30:28 AM »
Sam:

Let me start backwards from the comments you raised.

Visual terror is one reason why theme parks do well -- people like to experience (even if just one time) an edge-of-your-pants thrill ride from time to time. Pound Ridge has that -- the issue becomes one of getting repeat play and in order to do that -- I agree w Mike S that a few elements of the course -- they way it plays now -- would need to be tweaked to provide a greater amount of elasticity than there is now.

Just realize Sam -- the overall property is quite small and a bit demanding in terms of its precise configuration.

In regards to whether it goes private -- I think they would like to remain a CCFAD layout but they'll certainly need a high end delivery of those other dimensions in order to put pressure on nearby competitors like Centennial, and the others that are in the general vicinity.

C'mon, please when you speak about massive amounts of $$ being lost -- this is an area of the country that has REAPED the benefits of being loaded to the gills for years and years. We are talking about people who own companies, have several houses, vacation to Italy like it's a simple ride for me to the Jersey Shore, and on and on it goes. I don't the pain that is felt by many -- but let's be a bit more forthcoming about the sheer disposable nature of $$ that exists in that immediate area of Pound Ridge.

I agree the tee time availability will be an issue -- likely they will need to scale their fees as other courses have done. Ditto on the possibility in creating a loyalty program that drives more people to the site. Keep in mind, this was their first full season.

What the facility should not is to have a fire sale of what they charge to such a degree that it ends up being lowered more and more. The folks who want to play cheap golf will never have a price they want at Pound Ridge. And the folks at Pound Ridge had best know that discount golf will not add long term value to what they are inevitably promoting there. You brand / market UP -- not down.

In regards to the tee situation -- people have been conditioned that extra W-I-D-E fairways are the only way to have courses play. The bomb'n gouge crowd has been placated with 40 or more yards across fairways and as a result you get guys with the grip'n rip mentality. Pound Ridge encourages the big tee shot -- PROVIDED -- you can keep it in play and get to the key approach points on nearly all the holes. The 1st is a good example -- you can blast away -- the fairway is amply wide-- but the optimum spot is on the right side -- it's on that side that the fairway is narrower and the risk of hitting into the fescue increases -- that's fair game in my mind.

Sam, you won't have to hit 5-iron unless you are spraying your driver two zip code areas. You do have to give serious thought on where you land the ball and frankly given the advances in technology I think it's a fair exchange.

Pound Ridge will not appeal to the widest audience because it's intent is to cherry-pick off those with the pockets to pay. Will it be successful given the financial times we live now? That depends upon on how proactive the ownership / management responds in year two.

John Goodman

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2008, 11:40:48 AM »
Matt -

Which would you say has the wider playing corridors, Pound Ridge, or Royal Portrush the last time you played it?

John

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