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Matt_Ward

The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« on: July 07, 2008, 11:23:41 AM »
Located in the small hamlet of Pound Ridge (just norhteast of Grennwich, CT) the 172-acre site is Pete Dye's first layout in The Empire State (NY) and it's indeed a feat of architecture and engineering -- to the tun of $40 million. Previously, there was a 9-hole course on property but it is no longer there in any form or fashion.

The 7,171 yard / par-72 layout features 106 bunkers scattered throughout the course and the course has a mix of granite, schist and Inwood marble stone which features prominently when playing there. In fact, the club processed 70,000 tons for use as a base material for paths, driveways, parking lots and construction fill. Fourteen thousand feet of rock walls surround trees, wetlands and water hazards.

One of the real issues for Pete and his son P.B. who played an active role in the course's development was getting a functional routing on such a cramped and very demanding site.

The end result has certainly done that and in my mind Pound Ridge now becomes one of the more desired public courses to play in the greater NYC metro area and is easily the best public course in all of Westchester County.

Kudos to Pete's main shaper Michael Langkau for such a stellar job.

Pound Ridge demonstrates the number one quality that I have always believe is Pete Dye's greatest strength -- visual terror -- especially for the better player. You must hit the ball to particular spots and it's often tough to do because of all the eye-horro elements that Dye has included to throw you off-balance.

The key element for success at Pound Ridge is driving the ball -- you need sufficient distance and control. One without the other will not suffice -- especially on the quality long par-4's you played at #1, #2, #3, #8, #13, #14 and the final two holes.

A quick assessment of the course ... I'd do six hole stretches at a time ...

1st hole / 453 yds / par-4

Tough opening hole -- plays with a slight SW prevailing cross wind (during summer months) that is into the player's face. The fairway is amply wide but the secret is getting the tee shot to finish on the more invisible right side. Why? The green is more open from that side and should you venture down the left side there are some neatly placed trees that can block your view and add to the challenge in getting to the green.

The green is neatly angled on a diagonal from lower left to upper right and there is Sahara-like bunker complex that wraps itself around the front right and entire rear portion of the hole. Tough opening hole -- there are no warm-up holes at Pound Ridge.

2nd hole / 485 yds / par-4

Plays back the opposite way from #1 and can often have a helping SW wind at the player's back. Somewhat blind tee shot -- players need to favor the right side as it provide the best angle into the putting green. Pete / PB have created a massive bunker complex -- begins at 306 yards from the tips down the left side. The fairway bottlenecks -- sort of like what RTJ did at Oakland Hills / South (how ironic is that given how Pete saw fit to be the "anti" RTJ when he started designing courses). The green complex is protected by water that hugs the entire right side of the green -- not as close to the putting surface as the 18th at TPC / Sawgrass but every bit as menacing for the wayward shot. The green has enough contour so if you decide to lay-up or bail out right you'll need plenty of short game skills to come out with par.

3rd hole / 412 yds / par-4

A controversial hole indeed. The carry from the tips to the fairway is 251 yards and this hole -- like the 1st usually plays into the prevailing summer wind. Even if you play the next two frontal markers the carry is 227 and 208 yards respectively. Very intimidating type stuff. 

The green is again angled to reward shots that find the left side of the fairway. Go too far left and you'll find fescue grass that waves like Kansas wheat in full bloom.

4th hole / 169 yds / par-3

Plays to a max of 139 yards now as the champ tee is still being grassed. Very straightforward hole and really somewhat mundane for a Dye par-3 hole. Lots of eye-candy bunkrs dot the front portion of the hole but they don't come into play. The extreme right rear pin is the best of the lot.

5th hole / 317 yds / par-4

Short and inviting hole with split tees -- one lower on the left and the other on the upper right. Can be driven with the long ball executed perfectly.

Here I question what Pete and his son did because unlike a Hansen, Doak or C&C short par-4 type hole the Dyes have seen fit to create a slew of bunkers -- 13 at least -- that are all over the place. It's visual overkill which obscures the nature of the rolling land which could have been used to do something of a similar sort.

The green is OK and could have been more skillfully positioned / contoured etc, etc.

It's a good hole but throwing "more" for the sake of "more" left me thinking could / should have been done here.

6th hole / 216 yds / par-3

Drop-shot par-3 hole and a good one. The green is 38 yards in length and only 22 across. Miss too far right and you'll find your ball in a fall-away swale that will take plenty of short game skills to overcome. Miss left and the green will fall away from that side.

A major step-up from the 1st par-3 played.

 

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2008, 12:40:47 PM »
Continuing with the course profile ...

7th hole / 509 yds / par-5

Likely one of the easiest and less compelling holes on the course. Would likely be a par-4 if any big time players were in town. Fairway necks in at the 295 range so you have to be on guard. Very little else that is noteworthy on this hole.

8th hole / 422 yds / par-4

Solid par-4. Cannot see green from the tee and even in the approach area as hole falls away from the tee and then provides for a rise which blocks eye contact with the green. Green is well protected and you have an assortment of swales that mandate you hit the green or miss on the proper side.

9th hole / 573 yds / par-5

Superb closing hole for the front. FYI - the course never returns to the clubhouse at the turn. A 250 yd carry is needed from the tips to avoid wetlands which guard the frontal and left areas of the hole. A fade from the tee works wonders here. Fairway area necks down in terms of width the closer you come to the green which is elevated high above the fairway. Green has a few sections of note and failure to place the approach on the right area will likely mean a quick three-jack. As weak and boring as the 7th is -- the 9th is a real gem.

10th hole / 404 yds / par-4

Good change of pace hole. Tee is extremely elevated above the fairway and the drive requires a draw which works off a distant bunker complex (truly a work from the Dye indeed !) on the right side. Hole plunges downhill at that turning point and you need to shape the shot accordingly. Green is angled diaginally from lower right to back left and has no bunkers which only makes the hole play even better visually and strategically.

11th hole / 206 yds / par-3

Toughest par-3 on the course - although the 15th gets plenty of attention on this score. Also, goes downhill from the back tee box and is somewhat of a redan-like hole. Green is 43 yards in depth but offers different sections which require pinpoint approaches to those locations. Missing left here only ups the ante for a recovery. Detractors will point out that the two dropshot par-3 holes -- the 6th and 11th -- are fairly similar on the shot value side of things. I can see there point but the holes are a good bit different in terms of their look and club selection.

12th hole / 412 yds / par-4

Again, drive over wetlands -- 226 yds of carry from the tips. Hole moves left and you need to avoid hitting it too strong as high mounds cut in from the right for any tee shot in excess of 287 yards. Green is small and well protected by a left bunker that eats into the back third of the putting surface. Good change of pace hole as the back nine proceeds along ...

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2008, 12:46:48 PM »
Matt:  A fellow I played with this weekend grew up in that area and mentioned the course and said there is no way he would pay that much to play it - heck, it's hard enough to pay $150 to play Bulle Rock.  It may be fantastic but how many people are going to pay $235 per round on a regular basis - I don't know how the economics of this is going to work out.

Mike Sweeney

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2008, 01:06:59 PM »

The end result has certainly done that and in my mind Pound Ridge now becomes one of the more desired public courses to play in the greater NYC metro area and is easily the best public course in all of Westchester County.


Matt,

Can you spell this out a little more? Is it Bethpage Black good? Bethpage Red? LI National... Saying it is the best public course in Westchester seems like tap dancing as a Doak 4.5 could have won that trophy. Centennial, Liks at Union Vale and the others ARE not in Westechester, so basically you are saying it is better than the county courses?

Where number would it sit on the Matt Met Area 50 (and more) List?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 01:08:54 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2008, 02:40:15 PM »
Jerry:

Point taken except for one small item you and others may not have realized -- the greater Pound Ridge area is likely the RICHEST zip code area in all of the USA. I mean Greenwich is immediately nearby and the people who play at the toniest of clubs in that area can certainly handle the tariff charged there.

Let me give you an example -- only the small Bergen County Jersey towns of Alpine and Upper Saddle River can relatively compete with the mega amount of $$ that is within that area.

When you drive on streets such as North Street when you're in Greenwich and heading for the Merritt Parkway you see CASTLES not houses. I don't doubt that $235 is still $235 for many -- but for the bulk of the folks they are searching to play Pound Ridge the issue will be how good is the golf and how consistently high is the customer service. The price will be a secondary consideration for the most part. No doubt the golf market is changing rapidly and the day and age for such clubs may be towards the smaller end of things. We shall see on that score.

Mike S:

I'd have to say Pound Ridge is a top 50 metro area play. I'd have to give that some thought since my original listing features only one bonafide public courses -- the Black at Bethpage.

Pound Ridge is beyond the likes of Bethpage Red and LI National. Yes, you are right when I said being the best public in Westchester. The bar for that specific locale is really very low -- unless you are one of those folks who absolutely adores Dunwoodie ! ;D

In regards to Links at Unionvale and Centennial -- both are solid public courses with the former the better overall buy for most pocketbooks. Even if you threw in North Jersey's best public -- Ballyowen -- it can't compete with the challenge / demands Pound Ridge throws forward.

Mike, Pound Ridge is a visual terror -- likely the slope will be at least 145 from the tips with a CR of 75, or even more, from the tips. The MGA folks should be done with their work on that front in the next few weeks.

At Unionvale and Centennial your driving game can be a bit erractic and you can still have plays in getting the ball around. Pound Ridge is quite relentless on that front. Those who can't consistently control their tee game will find their time there difficult. But, for those who are GCA fanatics -- there is ample width in many spots and the greens do provide alternate entrances so that the penal dimension is not so utterly impossible save for the most herculean of plays.

Please don't think I don't have issues with Pound Ridge -- I'll explain a few of them in later posts because the mounding and fescue grass dimension can be a bit much in certain spots / situations.

The thing that makes Pound Ridge so unique is how the total routing was done so that you have little real compromising of top notch holes. Oh, there are spots -- I mentioned a few of the holes on the front where that occurs -- but few people would have achieved the totality of what Pete and his son P.B. did there.

Mike, to borrow a phrase from an ole Star Trek TV episode -- when Chekov was asked by a guy sitting in the captain's chair for Kirk he asked the navigator when under attack that he would simply surrender to the Romulans -- Chekov's reply was a classic one -- "Sir, the Romulans do not take captives!" That's the mantra for Pound Ridge.

At Pound Ridge you must not allow Pete and his son to play with your head. This is what separated Pete in his earliest works -- the considerable wherewithal to play mind games and cause you to have the slightest of doubts on just about any shot. If you have even a sliver of fear regarding shot execution -- Pound Ridge will grab you and make you pay.


Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2008, 02:48:00 PM »
Matt:  A fellow I played with this weekend grew up in that area and mentioned the course and said there is no way he would pay that much to play it - heck, it's hard enough to pay $150 to play Bulle Rock.  It may be fantastic but how many people are going to pay $235 per round on a regular basis - I don't know how the economics of this is going to work out.

Jerry:

Folks are paying $400 for a round of Pete Dye golf in Sheboygan.......(Wisconsin):

http://www.destinationkohler.com/rates/golf_rates.html

I'm pretty sure the demographics of Westchester County and the greater NYC metro area compare favorably with those of the bratwurst capitol of the nation.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2008, 03:29:11 PM »
Phil:

Folks are paying $400 to play along the Lake Michigan shoreline at a 5-star resort ... that's a little bit different situation.  There are lots of people near Greenwich who can afford a $250 round of golf, but I will be curious to see if there are enough of them who play often enough to make this course successful.

Matt:

The "relentless" nature of Pound Ridge may make it a great course in your mind, but will its unforgiving nature (compared to some of the others you mentioned) make it appealing to the public?  I'm not questioning your tastes, I'm just wondering if you think that's the best way to command a top-collar green fee?

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2008, 04:41:05 PM »
Tom:

You can walk up to WStraits (depending on the day, granted) and play as a single (and its $330 green fee and mandatory $60 caddie fee -- make it $400+, as I forgot the obligatory caddie tip) without any corresponding obligations to stay at the Kohler resort, which is a good 15 miles down the road (unlike, say, the way most folks these days get on to Pebble Beach with the corresponding mandatory stay at one of the lodges). Heck, you can't see the lake from anywhere near the Rivers course and still pay $220 there (again, without any corresponding requirement to stay at the American Club.)

Jerry's wonderment was whether a Dye course (which, let's face it, carries with it a certain cache and expectation of quality) could command $235 in that part of Westchester County. If the Sheboygan area can sustain two Dye courses north of $200, I'd be surprised if that area the NYC market can't.



Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2008, 05:28:31 PM »
The final six holes ...

One of the more unique situations encountered at Pound Ridge is that the final third of the course features a stunning array of different holes and situations.

Onward to the analysis ...

13th hole / 486 yds / par-5 (4) ?

An extremely difficult hole to build. Located in a far corner of the property there were several blowouts with mud and the like. The hole is a slight dog-leg right with a huge boulder that serves as a aiming point. The fairway, unlike a few at the course, tends to the narrow side.

The preferred shot here is a Trevino / Couples fade. If you go too far left you will catch wetlands and all other assorted bad situations. At the 286 yard mark the fairway narrows especially to roughly 24 yards across. Anything deeper than  that will need to be archer straight.

The green is perched abovethe base of the fairway and is reminiscent of what you see Pete did early on at places like Crooked Stick / The Golf Club, etc, etc.

The green is just wide enough (25) yards to handle approaches and is quite long 44 yards in length. Anything pulled left will face an Elvis situation -- as in deader than -- there is some space on that side but even then the recoverying would need to be Tiger-like to escape.

The hole could play as a par-4 for the top tier players but the gamble element as a par-5 off the tee makes it quite fun to play.

14th hole / 426 yds / par-4

Plays uphill as a dog-leg left and requires a well placed tee shot in the right side of the fairway. A well-positioned fairway bunker is on that same side about 290 yards from the tee. The green falls off to different sides and is vastly different than the others at Pound Ridge.

15th hole / 174 yds / par-3

The likely most photographed hole at Pound Ridge. Superbly created by the Dyes as the green sits just over a natural wetlands area. The green run like a serpent a total pace of 62 yards on a diagonal. Incredibly there is a rock wall that was left in place and reminded me of the par-3 at the Fairmount Chateau Whistler which uses the same idea.

The key to the hole is respecting the close proximity of the wetlands. The wind can swirl in this area of the property and anything this is short by even an inch is doomed. Great par-3 because you have to decide how aggressive / conservative to play.

16th hole / 570 yds / par-5

Plays uphill on the tee shot and the approach is more likely closer to 600 yards than the listed yardage. Blind tee shot that needs to work from right-to-left to get the preferred landing area. Miss too far left and it's a donation to the golf ball supply at PR. The Dyes placed a series of bunkers starting from roughly 125 yards out and you have to be especially aware to stay away from them.  The green is framed like a pyramid with separate wings to both the extreme right and left sides.

A really solid hole that will yield birdies but far more bogeys.

17th hole / 460 yds / par-4

The best par-4 at PR -- no question in my mind.

The tee shot appears wider than it looks but one should try to aim at the solitary fairway bunker in the distance. It's 309 to get there from the tips but it provides a better angle. If you miss right trees are nearby -- they are too numerous but enough to be pesky. The green is one of Dye's best at PR -- it has tiny landing areas for a hole of this length. You really can't miss too many places in order to feel somewhat secure about your chances.

The green is also protected by various bunkers which incidentally has little in terms of lips and are flat bottom throughout much of the course.

18th hole / 477 yds / par-4

A very demanding closer than goes in the opposite direction of #17.

I have no issue with the length or direction of the hole but there is a
H-U-G-E tree that literally stands between you and the preferred landing area in the fairway. You can go over it but it's near enough to the tee that it does require an extra thought.

Candidly, when I see a hole that NEEDS to add such a distraction to what is already demanding I have to question what the thought process was all about. Unfortunately, it's situations like this one which can cause people to leave with a bad taste in one's life about the whole experience.

To complicate matters the club has decided to plant a few small fir trees on the right side. These types of trees are nothing more than mini-water hazards because should your ball land in or around them you'll need to take a penalty stroke. Sometimes architects can go to excess to make a point. The two elements I just mentioned are good examples of that ebcause the hole can easily stand on its own merits.

Assuming you find the fairway the green hugs water which protects the entire left side. Block your approach to far right and your ball will setlle in a very demanding swale that mandates a very skillful play to walk away with a par.

Like I said the final six holes at PR are a tough group -- likely only Bethpage Black can exceed what you face there among metro NYC area public courses.

If a bit of pruning is done at #18 then PR will truly end in a wonderful manner.

I'm back there later in July and can't wait for another go at what the Dyes have created.

To play well at PR just follow the Clint Eastwood maxim ...

"A man's got to know his limitations" ...

Mike Sweeney

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2008, 05:40:21 PM »
Jerry's wonderment was whether a Dye course (which, let's face it, carries with it a certain cache and expectation of quality) could command $235 in that part of Westchester County. If the Sheboygan area can sustain two Dye courses north of $200, I'd be surprised if that area the NYC market can't.


If reports are correct and it cost them $41 million (clubhouse still to come in 2 years), then they probably borrowed close to $30 million. At 8% interest that is $2.4 mm in interest to carry per year.

They have to do 10,000 rounds just to cover their interest.

Long Island National has similar problems, 10-12 weekends a year the course was packed 10 years ago at $135 on weekends (plus a foursome fee to lock in a set 7:00 AM or similar tee time for the season), which was a big number. During the week, it was a different story. When you hit the shoulder season in the spring and fall, it fell off the earth as locals could not afford it.

They probably hope to tap into the weekday corporate outing market where you get 12-40 guys during the week. Problem is the privates are fighting very hard for these outings these days and Pound Ridge does not have a clubhouse. There is a temporary facility.

Here is a pretty good review from the local Westchester paper. Seems pretty honest, and his view seems similar to Tom Doak, who grew up nearby, and mine (who spends weekends nearby). Once a year or so sure why not, but a steady diet, no thanks.

http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008807070337

Video:

http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080624/VIDEO/306240006

http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080623/VIDEO03/80623012

« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 05:50:40 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Dave Bourgeois

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2008, 07:05:13 PM »
I understand that it is demanding and difficult, but was it fun? 

How does it rank up in difficulity with Great River in CT? 

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2008, 07:14:07 PM »
Just because it's near Greenwich means nothing. All those rich people already belong to clubs. Having the money doesn't mean they are going to spend it.
Biggest question mark--how long will it take to play? Anything over 4.5 and you can count many people (me included) out. From the description it sounds like the average golfer in NOT going to have fun which means it will probably take at least 5 hours to play.
I have been following the construction/progress for a good two years. It's 15 minutes from my house. In a strange way I want it to succeed but from what I've seen I'll stick with the Black (or Red).

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2008, 07:55:14 PM »
Photos, Matthew -  We need Photos!

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2008, 08:14:09 PM »
Dan H:

I'll try to have some in the next day or so.

Jeff:

You answered your own question. At the going rate the tee sheet won't be completely full and the pace of play should be no more than 4.5 hours. There are no long walks / drives between the holes -- in fact you can walk the course anytime if you so choose.

I don't doubt that not all the golf people who play the game in the immediate area will flock there but the PROXIMITY to the big time $$$ that makes up the area allows them to even contemplate such a fee. Place the course somewhere else in the NYC metro area -- save for only the Hamptons and the place would have to likely cut its fees in half.

Jeff, one other thing, the term "average golfer" is thrown around quite often and it bothers me because people rarely define what that means to them. I've seen the "average golfer" attempt to play Winged Foot / West, Bethpage Black and Shinnecock Hills. Do rounds at those locations exceed 4.5 hours. That's certainly the case at BB and you have no hesitation in seeking it out. Likely, it's the price tag that gives you a bad sense of things. Clearly, that's your prerogative.

Dave B:

The key at Pound Ridge is being BRUTALLY HONEST about your own game and what you can consistently do with a golf ball. If you go to PR and think you can "find your game" then you or anyone else for that matter is in deep, deep denial.

If played from the appropriate tees there's plenty of room to handle the challenge. Pete and P.B. just made the layout play especially tough for those low handicap types who all they can handle. Pete and P.B. have seen fit to oblige that request.

Let me point out that Great River is devoid of compelling architecture. It OD's the difficulty meter but there's little there design wise that demonstrates a winning integration of land, routing and consistent shot values. At PR if you play the correct shot -- whether in direction or through shaping -- you will be rewarded with sound execution. Just keep in mind with each tee box you move back the onus on the player for proper execution becomes greater and greater.

Mike S:

Just a quick question -- when you say "no thanks" to repeat play at PR is your opinion based on the actual merits of the course itself -- don't know if you have played it thus far -- or are you simply making such comments because of the price tag associated with the place? No doubt if it's price related you can say the same thing for Pinehurst #2, Kiawah / Ocean Course, Whistling Straits / Straits, Pebble Beach, et al, of that type.

Mike, when you say "they probably borrowed close to $30 million," I have to ask do you know that for a fact or is it speculation on your part? It doesn't seem as the Wangs are hurting for cash given their tremendous success in the private sector.

Keep in mind the general area around Pound Ridge is quite high in terms of people and disposable income. The east end has a high season but once it concludes -- generally right after Labor Day -- the scenario you mentioned concerning LI National does happen. No doubt there may be a general softening of the fees at different times of the year and it may be an iffy situation concerning outings of the type you mentioned. No doubt some of the private clubs will want more of these types of events for their own revenue botton line and PR will be competing for them.

I read Sam's comments on the blog you mentioned -- if you take what he said and apply it then Bethpage Black is in the same vein. The issue is not really about the golf per se, but about the price. Sometimes people harp on the former but it's really more about the latter and what they can afford.

For many people who have always played much of their golf on public domains -- that means places like Dunwoodie, Van Cordlandt Park or something akin to these places. Throw these same people on private places like Winged Foot / West and Shinnecock Hills and it's likely his same comments ... "The point isn't that Pound Ridge is unfair, because it's not. But it's also about as forgiving as the girl you stood up on prom night."

To Sam's credit he mentions the critical nature of what tees you choose to play from -- people need to be BRUTALLY HONEST about JUST HOW GOOD YOU REALLY ARE. Failure to do that can often mean these same people bitching and moaning about the golf course when the reflection in the mirror says the real story about the shortcomings that particular day.

Mike, you also mentioned that Tom Doak had an opinion on the course -- be curious to read it if you can post.
 



















Mike Sweeney

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2008, 09:04:50 PM »

Mike, you also mentioned that Tom Doak had an opinion on the course -- be curious to read it if you can post.
 

Matt,

I don't want to speak for Tom, but I think we are questioning the business model, not the golf course.

Can you point to any other public stand alone (no houses, no casino, no resort, no clubhouse!) course that has invested $41 million and been financially successful? It will take 175,000 rounds just to reach $41 million in revenues. How many rounds do you think they will do a year in an area where the prime season is basically 5-6 months a year?

I understand people thought Keiser was nuts too, but he did build a great (now 3) golf course and his capital outlay was much much smaller.

PS. Matt, isn't this just a re-hash of Stone Harbor. New course replacing a mundane course. Old Architect in a swan song of life...........

I was one of the first members at Stone Harbor, so it is not like I have not seen this before. What number owner are they on now? Even Harry has moved on to Shoregate!

From http://www.gapgolf.org/clubs.asp?cmd=&cid=114


"The 7th needed no explaining. It was an experience in pure terror. "

« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 09:21:52 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2008, 12:47:51 AM »
Matt,
I'm just curious, not critical, when I ask you this:  how many times will you take $250.00 out of your pocket and plunk it down to play this course?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2008, 10:41:50 AM »
Why isn't this course private?


CCFD courses seem out of demand.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2008, 10:59:23 AM »
Steve:

How do you know that?

I don't doubt that CCFAD in some remote area or one in which the depth of big time $$ is very thin that would apply. You should take a drive in and around the Pound Ridge area and tell me if even $8 a gallon gas would make many of those people remotely wince.

Jim K:

Ask a far broader question -- how many courses would I personally pay $200 or more to play?

The answer is very few.

I'd pay to play Pound Ridge at least 1-2 times per year but my overall financials are not what the ownership has in mind. My wife does read GCA from time to time and if I admit here to having millions stashed somewhere I'm sure she will ask me to fork a few over to her ! ;D

But realize this ...

I would not pay the dollar amount that Shadow Creek charges or other such comparable priced layouts like Pinehurst #2 (even though I am a big time fan of the NC layout) because the dollar escalation to play such courses has gone far beyond sensibilities for me. It's not a reflection of the architecture -- although I don't see Shadow being better than Wolf Creek in nearby Mesquite - which is a course I would

Jerry, those with the bucks and fascination will pay it because in relative terms there are the same people who pay $100+ for a bottle of wine, who get facials and manicures that are at least that much -- the same people who make sure Fido eats Angus beef and has a personal trainer, yada, yada, yada.

The neighborhood the course resides in the smack dab of big time cash. The issue will come down to how effective they can see the "experience" in playing there.

They may also do what other courses have done -- scale the rates to time of year in order to grab people who would not play there during prime time playing months.

Tom D:

Try to realize that Pete has designed other relentless courses in the past too that have received big time headlines - The Straits at WS is one that comes quickly to mind -- ditto The Ocean Course at Kiawah. People do line up to play these monsters even though they need a compass and a calculator to finish rounds there.

The issue Tom is that Joe Sixpack or Joe Champagne Glass given the nature of the neighborhood need to play from the appropriate tees because failing to do that will ensure a very long day. But, the same can be said for people who venture to Bethpage Black and insist upon playing the back tees because they want to see the entire course. It's funny because they do get their wish.

Tom, when you say top dollar green fee -- define top dollar green fee and for who? I mean Pound Ridge is not looking to ciphon off the duds who are grabbing the early tee times at Sprain Lake and Maple Moor !

When you see places like Pinehrust #2 charging $400 or Whistling Straits looking to grab a comparable number -- ditto places like Greenbrier and others of this type -- I don't see how $235 is so excessive. Please don't think I am not sympathetic to the plight of the average Joe and Jane because Pound Ridge is at best a singular event and likely few of them will ever venture there more than once. But, that decision is likely tied to their wallet rather than the nature of the design.

Mike S:

I'm not suggesting Pound Ridge is a slam dunk business success story. But, you need to check out Mapquest and see ther overall neighborhood from which Pound Ridge resides -- more than anyone else you should know that. We are talking about the zip code area where the printing presses for $$ are produced for all of the USA.

Mike, how many locations in the USA can even S-N-I-F-F the total bucks that exist on the border area between Westchester and Fairfield? No doubt the connection to other elements (e.g. casinos, hotels, etc, etc) are needed for those but Pound Ridge might be able to derive success without them -- even in a short season. Much will depend upon how the course is branded and marketed. I didn't say it will be a 100% success but I think you are being a bit unfair in saying the course will simply tank.

You also throw forward Stone Harbor as an example and it's a joke for you to go that direction. Stone Harbor was a lark of a layout with built in eccentricities to match the ego of its designer the late Desmond Muirhead.
The layout at Pound Ridge is far better in terms of its original design and the nature in how good shots are rewarded and penalized.

You also shame Pete Dye as being in a "swan song of life" -- the reality is that his son P.B. had more of a hand in the actual total details than many might surmise. Pete may not hit the fastball as well as he has from earlier times but he still can produce -- play the 15th hole as just one example !

Mike, don't know if you have actually played the course just yet. But, if and when you do -- you need to see how it was skillfully routed and despite the tight nature of the property does very well in so many spots ... I have articulated a number of the shortcomings -- the plethora of bunkers on the 5th which is simply overkill; the location of a huge tree blocking the fairway at the 18th with companion small fir trees on the right of the fairway, to name just two areas in need of correction.

But, if you link Stone Harbor as being the equivalent of Pound Ridge you are not comparing apples to oranges but fruits to vegetables. Night and day differences.

Stone Harbor failed for other reasons beyond the course content. Ownership was in flux -- ditto staff and the nature of golf in the greater AC area expanded to include a broader range of golf layouts. Let me also point out the seasonal nature of the lower Shore area -- those who resided in and around the immediate AC area did not have to venture all the way to Stone Harbor and Cape May vicinity to play.

Mike, I asked this before you tap-danced around it -- you said previously that the Wang family borrowed $30 million to build the course. What is your source for that info? I also opined that given the Wang's long time love affair with the property and the desire to provide something upscale public in an area dominated by extremely private clubs they have done a service to golf and for those who take advantage of what is being offered.

No doubt the climate for golf and the economy in general will play a major role but please don't try to link the nature of Stone Harbor's original design to what the Dyes have created there. I would think you would know better than that. Forgive me for my error.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2008, 11:07:09 AM »
What is the core constituency for daily fee golf that is not linked to a resort or other travel destination?  Presumably they rely on a combination of repete customers and corporate outings.  Will the repete customer who regularly pays $150 (I'm guessing this is the current fee) to play Centennial or Great River pay 60% more to play Pound Ridge based on architectural merit?  I guess we'll find out.

This may not be entirely comparable but I noticed last winter that the fees at PGA West and La Quinta had  been reduced from $235 (there's that number again) to around $185, bringing them more in line with the other upscale public courses in the Coachella Valley.  

Mike Sweeney

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2008, 11:34:28 AM »

Mike, I asked this before you tap-danced around it -- you said previously that the Wang family borrowed $30 million to build the course. What is your source for that info? I also opined that given the Wang's long time love affair with the property and the desire to provide something upscale public in an area dominated by extremely private clubs they have done a service to golf and for those who take advantage of what is being offered.

Matt,

Let's make it interesting. You take a guess at how much they borrowed versus my number. Whoever is closer will get a free paid round from the other at PRGC.  8) Borrowing money is the American way, just ask Larry Ellison - http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/01/31/MNG62H06991.DTL

With an original purchase price of $1.0 mm for the old 9 hole course according to one or two reports, I think a CCFD could have worked pretty easily as the Stamford and Greenwich town courses are average at best and very crowded. Somewhere the cost seems to have gotten out of hand for that type of CCFD model.

Matt,

Dustin Sweeney and I have breakfast almost every Sunday morning at Samuel Parker's Landmark Deli in Pound Ridge, NY about a mile or so north of Pound Ridge GC. We have been on the property a number of times. Stop by for an omelette !!

Matt,

I have been an early member/regular player at the following basically public courses:

Stone Harbor GC
Cherry Creek Golf Links (5 minutes from Friars Head)
LI National (7 minutes from Friars Head)

Name the course that has been profitable? Cherry Creek GL, the only one who has a no-name land planner as an architect, and a low cost business model. I doubt Cherry Creek would make a Top 50 list on Long Island, but it works. I have actually not played the second course at Cherry Creek, you know the one built from the cash flow of the first course!

Matt_Ward

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2008, 01:31:54 PM »
Mike:

I don't make guesses or statements on issues I don't know. Maybe you do. Maybe you should have a bit more definitive info before spouting out that $30 million was borrowed.

The costs you mentioned that got out of hand had much to do with blasting and the nature of rock and mud areas the lower portion of the property contained.

Clearly, the work to physically route holes through such corridors was not an easy assignment and given the nature of what things of all types cost in the metro NYC area -- especially the area that straddles Westchester / Fairfield counties I can only assume that's part of doing business in such a high profile / costly locale.

Mike, you mention the local public courses in and around Stamford and Greenwich -- I don't see them offering what Pound Ridge provides. No doubt Mr. Wang and family went for the whole tortilla by including all the extras. Whether or not that can succeed will be something to watch. I still believe that with superior marketing / branding plus some wisdom on the price front -- especially during the shoulder seasons -- they can make a go of it.

Mike, I'm glad you have walked the property to get a general feel for it. However, I can only imagine that you have not played it thus far. I think if you play it from the appropriate tees you will see clearly that Pound Ridge is far superior to the likes of what Stone Harbor attempted to be in its original form.

When you speak about profitability -- keep in mind that Mr. Wang wanted to do the Pound Ridge situation because of his love for his late father and his desire to add a public for-pay golf option in an area where high-end private golf is the only serious game in the area. I'm not sufficiently smart enough to know if his financials will break even in the very short term -- much will depend upon how aggressive they are in courting play from different levels.

One last thing -- in regards to Cherry Creek -- the people who inhabit the Hamptons for the summer months are the transients. No doubt LI National tried to squeeze the $$ trail with only regard to the high season and as a result they took it on the chin for the bulk of the remaining months of any golf season. The "locals" in the Westchester / Fairfield county areas are people who are the regulars and if you happen to analyze any demographic data you will find numbers / info that are far and away beyond any area of the country in terms of $$$. I would agree with you that if Pound Ridge were placed as is in the Hampton as a stand-alone CCFAD then your analysis would be on target. I see the location of Pound Ridge as being an asset provided the due diligence of marketing / branding and PR are carried out earnestly.

Phil B:

The only response I can give you is that the folks who inhabit the metro north corridor leading out of NYC and as you reach the northern and eastern tier of Westchester County and the western perimeter of Fairfield County in CT are loaded to the GILLS. Houses don't exist there -- mansions, castles, call them what you will are in full view.

I'm not saying that everyone will embrace Pound Ridge as THE place to play. No doubt the private clubs in and around the area have done well for so many years.

However ...

Pound Ridge can take away a good bit of the crowd that treks to Great River and those who have to drive all the way to Carmel for Centennial will re-evaluate and see if Pound Ridge provides more for them.

We shall see how it all plays out -- but people need to realize that the architecture / design of the course is not something out of a horror movie or is totally unplayable. It is -- when played from tees tied to one's playing abilities.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2008, 02:56:14 PM »
Matt,

I live in Scarsdale so I have a good feel for the demographics in this area.  What I don't have is a good sense of who plays upscale daily fee courses on a regular basis.  I assume it's people who don't want to pay for the crap that comes along with a private club - the pool, restaurant, tennis courts etc., all the things that drive up the cost of belonging to a club - but want a better experience than a muny or county course will provide.  Personally, I only know 1 guy (a VP at Pepsi) who considers upscale daily fee as his primary golfing experience (he splits play between Great River and Centennial).  I know lots of people who belong to clubs or play the county courses, but not the daily fee types.

Pound Ridge is better located than Centennial or Great River, being closer to the money, so maybe the combination of superior architecture and location will warrant the premium price.

Jason McNamara

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2008, 04:38:28 PM »
Phil -

Maybe the idea is to get a lot of the corporate events that private clubs don't want (or allow, but in limited numbers)?

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2008, 04:49:55 PM »
Jason,

Definitely more conveniently located for corporate events than the alternative upscale publics. 

Matt Varney

Re: The "new" Pound Ridge -- Visual Terror from the Dyes !
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2008, 04:51:48 PM »
Just to clarify one thing - Pound Ridge is a Pete Dye and Perry Dye design.  I think someone said it was Pete & P.B. Dye.  I would agree this course is probably very demanding from the back tees based on some of the pictures I have seen.  

Most Dye courses require you to play the set of tees based on your ability to play from those yardages.  Pete Dye Golf Club, The Honors, TPC Sawgrass, Kiawah Island, Whistling Straits they are all like this and if you tee it up thinking you can play from the back after a couple holes and about 6 lost balls later you will move up tee boxes.

We are working with Pete Dye and P.B. Dye in Tennessee on a mountain course and it is going to be spectacular.  One thing I have noticed working with the Dye's is how they use angles from these back tees and elevation changes to make them visually intimidating.  You can walk up on the middle tees and just bang the driver no problem and hit fairways.  You go to the back tees and add 80 yards and much harder angle flying over bunkers and natural hazards and you have to hit a long controlled tee shot or you are dead.  

I don't think it is visual terror as much as it visual stimulation.  The challenge is very fun and sometimes not fair but, its golf the wind blows and you get some bad bounces.  The Dye courses that I have played always require you to make shots and avoid hazards man made or natural to score well.  At the end of the round if you have played well you really feel like it was a good test of golf and the challenge just made it much more fun and memorable.

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